[Crystal-clear]

as soon as i can i would like to provide my van water etc and pay someone a decent percentage of the take.

I wana know where is the best place to find someone i will be paying about £80 per short day to use my van which is decent for 17 foot work so i would like someone who is polite hard working etc.

I would prefer someone with a bit of experience .

So hows the best way to find someone Gumtree :?

And apart from employers liability anything els i should consider?

cheers

[mci services]

you can't employ a self employed worker, and if you could you would not need employers liability as they would need to have their own public liability and equipment and van etc, they would also need their own work and you just subcontract to them, that would be the legal answer I think some may have slightly illegal advice though

[deeege]

Yes you will get plenty of suitable applicants from gumtree. Please keep us updated.  

[Crystal-clear]

you can't employ a self employed worker, and if you could you would not need employers liability as they would need to have their own public liability and equipment and van etc, they would also need their own work and you just subcontract to them, that would be the legal answer I think some may have slightly illegal advice though

Stu i hear from loads of guys that they get them to sign a paper something saying you are self emplyed a bit like a taxi driver only he aint picking up people he is picking up a pole?

[mci services]

here is hmrc link

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm#1

it is a grey subject that is often abused but if you get caught out it could cost you so do your homework

[Crystal-clear]

Nice one,

I will look into it

[Crystal-clear]

Crazy ur right totally grey even hmrc say that in there own words too!

All i wana do is find a decent person get him to invoice me and since in the start he will only be working 2 days per week i thought him being self employed as i am would be ok.

i remember calling them up on this subject a while ago as a metter of fact, they seemed a little bit relaxed about it and said something along the lines of the economy would collapse if everyone did everything by the book lol

but what is employing the best way to go have you ever "employed" someone what does it cost for say 2 days per week worker?

cheers

[darren clarke]

if you control the work and the hours and give them the equipment they are not self employed,  u might try a cscs card  which is a bit like self employment but u still have to take tax off them

if they use there own van, tools, and just rent the work off u or invoice you for hours worked then they are self employed

a lot of taxi drivers hire the can/box for a set fee and are then self employed as they can work what hours they want


if u decided to fiddle the self employment and HMRC catch u   then u are liable for it not the employee as all he has got to say is i thought the tax was been taken out,  he might have to pay the tax, over the following years but u r the one who gets fined for fraud and poss prison

[mci services]

darren you are correct apart from the cscs card. that is just get access to building sites it is cis you mean

[darren clarke]

sorry cis

[darren clarke]

go along to ur local tax office and go on one of there tax courses   takes a day and they tell u what u can and cant do,  i went on one,  they said to me  we know u r going to try and rip us off   just dont do it stupily

[Crystal-clear]

ok alot to learn ill get in touch with them again soon , i was wanted to find a decent person next year that cis card thing sounds good .

So they work and i pay there tax for them simple as that any other fees?

[darren clarke]

no they work for you, u take 18% of there wages in tax and give them a voucher and keep that money and give it to the tax man,  do not spend it  as long as they have got that voucher  then u r responsible for there tax,  they pay there own ni,  but it means u can sack them any time and dont have to pay sick pay

[Crystal-clear]

been reading about it Gosh Employment law is complex..i will need to seek advice when the time comes.

I think this is one thing the government can do is help small businesses and make it a bit easier for them to grow cos right now im thinking , Sod it ill just work alone next year too lol.it just sounds complicated . even if you find someone and do all that crap set all the payment stuff out , then your new member of staff goes on a 4 day bender doesn't come back to work again, what happens then!?

If it was just a bit easier many other people would be in a job im sure there is alot of small businesses out there that could use 2 days per week but dont wana fill out so many forms, they should try and make things a bit more simpler -_-

[Crystal-clear]

no they work for you, u take 18% of there wages in tax and give them a voucher and keep that money and give it to the tax man,  do not spend it  as long as they have got that voucher  then u r responsible for there tax,  they pay there own ni,  but it means u can sack them any time and dont have to pay sick pay

Thank the lord this sounds simple is it legal!! :PP??

[darren clarke]

no they work for you, u take 18% of there wages in tax and give them a voucher and keep that money and give it to the tax man,  do not spend it  as long as they have got that voucher  then u r responsible for there tax,  they pay there own ni,  but it means u can sack them any time and dont have to pay sick pay

Thank the lord this sounds simple is it legal!! :PP??

it is legal,  most of the building trade was on CIS cards, as was a lot of plumbers who worked for connaughts in liverpool,  it was designed so that the worker could be finished up any time and nothing they could do, but it meant the gov was still getting tax of them as they got it from the employer,  not the worker

[Crystal-clear]

So its easy

My add would be as follows:

Looking for person to Join a growing window cleaning company etc

1) must have driving lisence
2) Must be registered with the CIS card


So then he simply invoices me i keep - the 18% give him this voucher
and then i pay his tax end of the year ?

Simple as that everyone is happy?

[darren clarke]

basically yea,  u might have to speak to HMRC about a voucher book,  but it is basically that,  to register for a cis card they just fill in a form and it gets posted out to them, so u dont even need a lad already registered

[Crystal-clear]

Thank you very much Darren !!

May i ask do you do the same thing or do you have employees?

[darren clarke]

i am looking at employing someone but pay them cash in hand till i know weather they are any good,  i use to employ when i was a plumber and had a mate who had a building company and use to help him out with his

[mci services]

I was always under the impression that CIS was for the construction industry only but hey I could be wrong

[darren clarke]

i think it is a grey area, as if u do a builders clean then u r in the contrsuction industry,

[Crystal-clear]

i am looking at employing someone but pay them cash in hand till i know weather they are any good,  i use to employ when i was a plumber and had a mate who had a building company and use to help him out with his

so i guess for a trail period you can pay cash in hand if he invoices you ?

then maybe if he proves himself go down the cis route?

Or are you legally not aloud to offer this "cash in hand" trail work like you said

one thing is for sure it goes on alot when i was younger it was the only way they would pay you for a job i used to do removals for a guy , he just used to pay me 

[Rob_Mac]

I have just had an ongoing run in with Bowmer & Kirkland (the largest privately owned construction company in the country)

External cleaning is CIS stoppages exempt. They were adamant that I needed to have a UTR.

They were wrong I am right and somebody in their accounts department got a right telling off for stopping my invoices going back 5.5 months.

Why would you pay a tax that you don't need to pay??

Rob

[Crystal-clear]

I have just had an ongoing run in with Bowmer & Kirkland (the largest privately owned construction company in the country)

External cleaning is CIS stoppages exempt. They were adamant that I needed to have a UTR.

They were wrong I am right and somebody in their accounts department got a right telling off for stopping my invoices going back 5.5 months.

Why would you pay a tax that you don't need to pay??

Rob

Rob in layman terms please

[Rob_Mac]

There seems to be a discussion about registering for CIS

I was asked by Bowmer & Kirkland to register as a contractor who works 100% of the time on construction sites.

I knew that external cleaning is exempt from the CIS scheme, even on construction.

CIS stoppages equate to 20% of invoice (I think) and I wasn't prepared to pay it.

The talk is about registering for CIS someone who you want to work for you on a subby basis, they will be stopped 20% but they don't need to be!

Rob

[Crystal-clear]

now im confused  so i dont need to ask my further worker to registor for cis??? what do i do how to i do it bare in mind im a small business whats the most efficient way

[Rob_Mac]

I'm a small business. I just have 4 or 5 very big customers.

I am in the position of needing to employ 2 individuals on a self employed/employed basis and am looking at all options.

If you sub contract your work to another person who is self employed they need to have at least one more customer.

My take on this is that they do your work and they invoice you. You pay them on say 30 days and as long as they have another, proven customer you are doing nothing wrong as they are not solely reliant on your income. I could be wrong but if you give them a few window cleaning customers as well then they aren't.

Speak to HMRC about not paying percentages within the construction industry. It is fact that external cleaning is exempt. If you clean internally or under a canopy then you have to pay.

Rob

[mci services]

I have the same argument as rob with another large building firm and I refused to register with cis as well. In the end they agreed with me,

and I also agree with his thinking on self employment

[andyM]

Yes Crystal-clear it sounds simple to employ someone for a couple of days a week and then when you look into it it becomes a headache.
Right first off the CIS Scheme was changed in 2007. The self-employed worker does not need a CIS card as before but a UTR (Unique Tax Reference) number. The individual has to register with HMRC and then they are given this number.
Under the current Construction Industry Scheme the "Contractor" deducts 20% of gross earnings from the "Sub-Contractor" at source.
The "Sub-Contractor" keeps a record of all deductions by copies of Invoices and when completing his tax return there is a seperate box to enter the total amount of the deductions.
If in that tax period the "Sub-Contractor" has overpaid tax he will receive a refund of his deductions in full or in part.
The problem I can forsee IF a sub-contracting window cleaner does fall under CIS for tax purposes is that he will only be working 2 days a week. He may well not earn enough to go over the Lower Earnings Threshold but will still get deducted 20% tax at source, and will have to wait until he completes his tax return to get refunded.
He will also not receive sick pay or holiday pay. And he may well find a run of the mill PAYE job more appealing.

[Rob_Mac]

AJM

Not going to argue with what you said as I undestand it it is 99% correct. A window cleaner though will not have to pay or register for a UTR.

Rob

[Crystal-clear]

Gosh my head Hurts now!

Ok,,

Step 1 find a worker (make sure he is self employed)
Step 2 give him a list of houses
step 3 make sure he has a few customers of his own (so he aint depending on my income)
step 4 get him to invoice me (a period of time which we agree)
step 5 PAY the SOD!!!!!!!!!!
Step 6 everyone is happy he pays tax on profit as i do and HMRC should take a chill pill.

Gosh im trying to help the economy here for crying out loud putting someone in work should be easyer!

So these are the 6 steps?

[mci services]

Gosh my head Hurts now!

Ok,,

Step 1 find a worker (make sure he is self employed)
Step 2 give him a list of houses
step 3 make sure he has a few customers of his own (so he aint depending on my income)
step 4 get him to invoice me (a period of time which we agree)
step 5 PAY the SOD!!!!!!!!!!
Step 6 everyone is happy he pays tax on profit as i do and HMRC should take a chill pill.

Gosh im trying to help the economy here for crying out loud putting someone in work should be easyer!

So these are the 6 steps?

yes that method will work, and is a lot less complicated

[andyM]

M-Clean I haven't employed or sub-contracted someone before, I work alone.
So im sure you know more about this subject than myself. However I do have previous experience of working under CIS myself as a sub-contractor in construction but not for window cleaning.
So I was explaining the situation that someone sub-contracting for him would be in IF they came under the CIS for window cleaning.
From what you have said they wouldn't come under CIS which does sound sensible.  
And thanks for sharing the info about the situation you had. No-one wants to give the taxman 20% tax upfront if they don't have to!  

[Rob_Mac]

That looks all above board to me!!

You want to try doing what I have to do.

Week before last a Morrisons complete cladding clean in Minehead, with a trip to Chester to clean a canopy on another Morrisons.

Bigleswade for a Sainsburys roof clean last week with a trip to Twickenham for an Asda roof clean.

Down to Bromley in Kent tomorrow on a Sainsburys pressure washing to existing store (extension going onto it)

Had two requests to be in Whitechapel Thursday and Friday.

I live near to Alton Towers in North Stafordshire.

Looking forward to a holiday in a weeks time.

Rob

[darren clarke]

confuse your self more and ready these

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/esmmanual/esm4018.htm

the second is good, says cleaning is a special case in the tax law


If you work under a contract of service (employment), the employer will be responsible for operating PAYE and accounting for tax and NICs.

However, if you work under a contract for services (self-employed), you will be responsible for registering as self-employed and for completing a Self Assessment.