[Perfect Windows]

In the "Businesses Wanted & For Sale" section.

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=165221.msg1385220#msg1385220

Please contact me with any questions - email below.

Vin

[SunShineCleaning]

Looks interesting, dare I ask how you make money if all the money is for equipment as there seems to be no mention of monthly fee.

[Perfect Windows]

Looks interesting, dare I ask how you make money if all the money is for equipment as there seems to be no mention of monthly fee.

I take a % of turnover.  

Just to clarify, that's already taken into account in the "net earnings" figure, so the "net earnings" number is what the franchisee will get before income tax with all expenses taken into account.

Vin

[SunShineCleaning]

I think it's a great opportunity for someone and well done for being able to offer it.

It's just not clear that you charge a monthly fee for the franchise.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Southampton-window-cleaning-franchise-be-your-own-boss-we-supply-the-customers-/221184639123?

It could be that I'm just a bit dim though!!

[richard jagger]

Just a quick question if I may.How long has Perfect windows been operating as a business?

[Perfect Windows]

Just a quick question if I may.How long has Perfect windows been operating as a business?

Just under three years.

Vin

[richywilts]

do you provide trousers for the winter 

[deeege]

"We are so successful that we need to increase the number of customers we can service."

   

[SunShineCleaning]

Just a quick question if I may.How long has Perfect windows been operating as a business?

Just under three years.

Vin

Wow thats great to be able to support at least the 2 men pictured and be able to offer £25k of work to a potential franchisee.

How many franchisees do you have work for?

[Perfect Windows]

do you provide trousers for the winter 

Well, that's a difficult one.

I choose shorts all year round because I'm not a soft Southern Jessie.  Trousers are included inthe uniform kit if preferred...

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

"We are so successful that we need to increase the number of customers we can service."

   

Not sure if this is a question but we have a waiting list of customers.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

Just a quick question if I may.How long has Perfect windows been operating as a business?

Just under three years.

Vin

Wow thats great to be able to support at least the 2 men pictured and be able to offer £25k of work to a potential franchisee.

How many franchisees do you have work for?

One of the guys in the picture is me - the devastatingly attractive one.  I'll be running a two man van as a franchisee of the franchise business (don't ask why) for the foreseeable future.

How many franchises available?  That's a difficult question, but based on our market size, practically, there isn't a limit we're going to hit in the next few years however many people we take on. 

There's a limit to how many new franchisees a year we could service properly - a core requirement for success - and there are at least ten years of customers at that maximum growth rate.

Vin

[richywilts]

good luck with it have you bought into the ian lancaster franchise system?

was looking into it myself

[SunShineCleaning]

"We are so successful that we need to increase the number of customers we can service."

   

Not sure if this is a question but we have a waiting list of customers.

Vin

I think the point he makes is that the sentence does not make sense.

[deeege]

"We are so successful that we need to increase the number of customers we can service."

   

Not sure if this is a question but we have a waiting list of customers.

Vin

I think the point he makes is that the sentence does not make sense.

Correct sunshine.

[Steve Sed]

"And" instead of "that" I think.

[SunShineCleaning]

"And" instead of "that" I think.

Surely its the number of cleaners that needs to increase  to accommodate the success? !

[Steve Sed]

"And" instead of "that" I think.

Surely its the number of cleaners that needs to increase  to accommodate the success? !

Yes, so he can service more customers. 

[Perfect Windows]

Without going into a textual exegesis of the sentence, the aim was to indicate "we are so successful that we need to do something about it," the "do something about it" being "increase the number of customers we can service".

However, it obviously reads badly, so thank you for pointing that out - I've reworded it.

Thanks,

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

good luck with it have you bought into the ian lancaster franchise system?

was looking into it myself

I have.  And, more importantly, when I spoke to Ian we had very similar views, namely keep the franchisee happy and everything else will flow from that.

I don't mean to be "salesy" but, genuinely, my motive is that the better the franchisee does out of the business the longer they will be happy and the happier I will be.

Vin

[bobplum]

i may have read it wrong and probably too quick but from what i can see your taking money of people,setting up the van/system and then helping them find work...........surely they can do that themselves

[G Griffin]

Nigel Adkins might be interested  .

[bobplum]

just read it again.....sorry

[Perfect Windows]

Nigel Adkins might be interested  .

He'll be in a job by the start of next season.  Whoever gets him will be VERY lucky indeed.  He's the real deal.

Vin

[ronnie paton]

hi vin have i read wrong are the to costs different on ebay and your site?

[Perfect Windows]

hi vin have i read wrong are the to costs different on ebay and your site?

I've had a look and I can't see a difference, £5,950 on both on my PC.

If there is a difference I simply can't see it.

What are you seeing?

Thanks for pointing this out - maybe something I can't see and you can.

Thanks,

Vin

[SunShineCleaning]

http://www.perfect-windows.co.uk/pwfranchise


Taken from the above page
Effort and determination to run your own business.
Total start up costs of £9,950 to buy the franchise and equipment above.
A suitably insured van of the right specification, up to 5 years old.
A PC with printer and broadband connection and room for basic administration.
Space for the production of deionised water (one square metre of garden plus a similar space in a shed or garage).

And further up the page

We supply all work - hundreds of local customers available. You supply the effort and determination to succeed. You never have to find customers.
A net income after all expenses (before income tax) of around £27,000 for a typical 27-hour working week is a reasonable expectation.
No experience whatsoever required - we will give you full and complete training and ongoing support. In fact, no experience would be preferred (no bad habits to remedy!).


Maybe you changed your pricing structure or this includes the van as well??

[Ian Lancaster]

good luck with it have you bought into the ian lancaster franchise system?

was looking into it myself

I have.  And, more importantly, when I spoke to Ian we had very similar views, namely keep the franchisee happy and everything else will flow from that.

I don't mean to be "salesy" but, genuinely, my motive is that the better the franchisee does out of the business the longer they will be happy and the happier I will be.

Vin

Glad to see you're well on your way Vin.  Have you set yourself a yearly minimum for new franchisees appointed?

Cheers,

Ian

[Perfect Windows]

http://www.perfect-windows.co.uk/pwfranchise


Taken from the above page
Effort and determination to run your own business.
Total start up costs of £9,950 to buy the franchise and equipment above.
A suitably insured van of the right specification, up to 5 years old.
A PC with printer and broadband connection and room for basic administration.
Space for the production of deionised water (one square metre of garden plus a similar space in a shed or garage).

And further up the page

We supply all work - hundreds of local customers available. You supply the effort and determination to succeed. You never have to find customers.
A net income after all expenses (before income tax) of around £27,000 for a typical 27-hour working week is a reasonable expectation.
No experience whatsoever required - we will give you full and complete training and ongoing support. In fact, no experience would be preferred (no bad habits to remedy!).


Maybe you changed your pricing structure or this includes the van as well??

How bizarre.  That was a page that we changed an age ago and I though we'd deleted the original one.  I think my PC must have been loading from its cache or something, as I was seeing something completely different.  The figure should indeed be £5,950.

I've done a quick fix, so it should look fine.  When the current Mrs Vin gets up I'll get her to delete the alternative version of the page.

Thanks for spotting that for me.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

Glad to see you're well on your way Vin.  Have you set yourself a yearly minimum for new franchisees appointed?

Cheers,

Ian

At the moment we have no idea what the demand for franchises will be.  We have a maximum.  I know we both have the same view, that the franchisees need to succeed, so I've capped the number based on how much time I can give them.

If the right person doesn't come along it might be zero!

Vin

[SunShineCleaning]

http://www.perfect-windows.co.uk/pwfranchise


Taken from the above page
Effort and determination to run your own business.
Total start up costs of £9,950 to buy the franchise and equipment above.
A suitably insured van of the right specification, up to 5 years old.
A PC with printer and broadband connection and room for basic administration.
Space for the production of deionised water (one square metre of garden plus a similar space in a shed or garage).

And further up the page

We supply all work - hundreds of local customers available. You supply the effort and determination to succeed. You never have to find customers.
A net income after all expenses (before income tax) of around £27,000 for a typical 27-hour working week is a reasonable expectation.
No experience whatsoever required - we will give you full and complete training and ongoing support. In fact, no experience would be preferred (no bad habits to remedy!).


Maybe you changed your pricing structure or this includes the van as well??

How bizarre.  That was a page that we changed an age ago and I though we'd deleted the original one.  I think my PC must have been loading from its cache or something, as I was seeing something completely different.  The figure should indeed be £5,950.

I've done a quick fix, so it should look fine.  When the current Mrs Vin gets up I'll get her to delete the alternative version of the page.

Thanks for spotting that for me.

Vin

You can always rely on this forum to pick out any flaws!!

I hope it all goes well for you.  One of the chaps I helped setup went down the franchisee route land seems to be doing well out of it.

[roundbuilder]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

[Pro-Poler]

These franchises are cons, and the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable earn your own money. 

[PAUL ERITH]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

But vin will also get a percentage of the 2k per week royalty fee

[Pro-Poler]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

But vin will also get a percentage of the 2k per week royalty fee

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money   

[Window Washers]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

But vin will also get a percentage of the 2k per week royalty fee

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money   

thats why Vin is in business to make money whats the problem with that, someone else will make 80% for buying a van, I cant see that being a bad deal

[davids3511]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

But vin will also get a percentage of the 2k per week royalty fee

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money   

what drives any business owner if not money?

[Ian Lancaster]

These franchises are cons, and the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable earn your own money. 

Be careful what you put on a public forum.  The above statement is libellous - you know nothing about me or the people who have set up Franchise organisations using my system.

[Pro-Poler]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

But vin will also get a percentage of the 2k per week royalty fee

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money   

what drives any business owner if not money?

so earn your own then as long as you've got the equipment what's stopping you he want's a percentage doesn't he, it used to be called renting a round out it rarely ever works out  

[davids3511]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

But vin will also get a percentage of the 2k per week royalty fee

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money   

what drives any business owner if not money?

so earn your own then as long as you've got the equipment what's stopping you he want's a percentage doesn't he, it used to be called renting a round out it rarely ever works out  

I do earn my own plus I earn some from my franchisee too thanks very much.

[roundbuilder]

I didnt mean for a debate to start im just curious how anyone can state they will find enough work to cater for the franchisee's needs through there own marketing.
Id happily hand over 6k if that was all it took to get a 8k a month round and any dropouts or cancelations were replaced for me and hand over a 20% loyalty each month giving me 5-6k to myself a month so to a franchisee thats a bargain 6k a month for life for a 1 off 6k payout to buy in. but in reality i dont think it would happen like that as its not so easy gaining regular loyal customers anymore and as you have been only going 3 years vin i think you may find that out the hard way. if you had 3 people interested all at once how would you cator for them giving them loyal decent customers that wont be the troubled 1 offs and messers. You cannot guarantee that there work will be to there needs, what if they are crap at cleaning and you forever are replacing 25-30 custermera a week, all the franchise papers would be signed so it would be on you to keep the work above the minimum required, just sounds a lot of hard work to me especialy when you get more and more franchises on board.

I could probably split what i have into 4 half decent franchise's but id be forever working for them canvassing and maintaining there customer base fixing there problems etc etc. i havnt got it in me to franchise but i do admire the guys that do and i hope it all works out for you vin.

[SunShineCleaning]

These franchises are cons, and the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable earn your own money. 

Ouch!

Your completely misguided on that one. Franchising is one of the best ways to enable someone with no knowledge to have a ready to run business without the stress of knowing how to build up a business.

It's not that much different to employing. Its a better deal for both parties.

I wish I had the know-how and bottle 20 years ago to go down this route.
When I see the lads that have worked with me who I have enables to set up on their own and when I think about the 100's of customers I have let go for a song, I weep.

If I had franchised back then, considering the work that has passed through my hands, I could be sat on a beach somewhere sipping Martini. 

Even since 2005 I have more suspended rounds on George than current work.

It's how all business works some have the know-how some have the braun. Both make money, but the guy with the know-how makes more.

[SunShineCleaning]

These franchises are cons, and the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable earn your own money. 

Low priced work is all in the provider's head. Get over it.

As for earn your own money, do you not know how the world works? The vast majority work for someone else and make them money.

Ian sells his knowledge, Vin sells his. Go for it yourself maybe you can do it better and sell your knowledge.

[Ian Lancaster]

These franchises are cons, and the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable earn your own money. 

Ouch!

Your completely misguided on that one. Franchising is one of the best ways to enable someone with no knowledge to have a ready to run business without the stress of knowing how to build up a business.

It's not that much different to employing. Its a better deal for both parties.

I wish I had the know-how and bottle 20 years ago to go down this route.
When I see the lads that have worked with me who I have enables to set up on their own and when I think about the 100's of customers I have let go for a song, I weep.

If I had franchised back then, considering the work that has passed through my hands, I could be sat on a beach somewhere sipping Martini. 

Even since 2005 I have more suspended rounds on George than current work.

It's how all business works some have the know-how some have the braun. Both make money, but the guy with the know-how makes more.

It's still not too late, SunShine - I didn't take on my first franchisee till September 2006 - shortly before my 62nd birthday.  By the end of 2009 I had my six in place, as well as two sub-franchisees

[G Griffin]

If he wants to sip Martini on a beach, there's no hope for him now, Ian  .

[SunShineCleaning]

If he wants to sip Martini on a beach, there's no hope for him now, Ian  .

 

[Frankybadboy]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

[Perfect Windows]

   Window cleaning franchise for sale - Southampton area
« on: Yesterday at 05:11:49 pm »

We carry out all your marketing for you and will get you to the turnover you require. We also give you extensive training on how to run the business plus support for the entire time you are one of our franchisees.



Vin does that mean if someone pays £5995 you will get them as much work as they can handle/require or is there extra cost as the way i read it you would be doing all the marketing for the franchisee's customer base, if your franchisee wants 2k a week of work then that is a lot of marketing you will have to do for £5995.

Hi Mick,

If the franchisee wants (and can handle and stay happy with) £2,000 of work a week then I will get it for them.  I've done a LOT of work on the cost and most efficient ways of gaining customers and I know it's sustainable.  You need to remember that the aim here is to have franchisees who are so happy that they stay with me for a LONG time, so the short-term cost of gaining work is, to some extent, irrelevant compared to a percentage for the next ten years.


Also, this is the first franchise sale so I'm not really fussed about making a fortune - I'll be charging more in future as I'll have someone prepared to state that my numbers and attitude are right.

I would also say that I'm not looking for franchisees who want to do £2,000 a week.  I want happy franchisees and I'm not sure that forty-hour weeks could ever lead to that result.  I want people who want a decent living working a three day week.

Vin

[Dave Willis]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

Does Vin do dogging too?

[Perfect Windows]

These franchises are cons, and the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable earn your own money.  

"These franchises are cons": Abuse with no foundation, not worthy of a response.

"the prices he charges on his website are unsustainable": Just under 800 people in Southampton don't agree with him.  They pay me with a smile and on time every time I go.  I'm putting prices up in May so I have already started telling people (my 12-weeklies, next clean will be May) and without exception they have said something along the lines of "no problem".  Franchisees will see my books and round lists so they know the customers are there and are constant.

"earn your own money": by all means, do so.  A franchise is not for everybody.  If you think back to how hard it felt to take the plunge and start out on your own with no support, then you'll know how tough it can be.  A franchise allows the franchisee to take that plunge with the help and support of someone who has done it and who has ironed out all the problems he can.  If you want to take the plunge on your own, then all power to your elbow.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money  

One of my motives is money.  Why are you a window cleaner?  Charity?

I have plenty of other motives as well.

Vin

[Frankybadboy]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

Does Vin do dogging too?

that be telling

[Perfect Windows]

I didnt mean for a debate to start im just curious how anyone can state they will find enough work to cater for the franchisee's needs through there own marketing.
Id happily hand over 6k if that was all it took to get a 8k a month round and any dropouts or cancelations were replaced for me and hand over a 20% loyalty each month giving me 5-6k to myself a month so to a franchisee thats a bargain 6k a month for life for a 1 off 6k payout to buy in. but in reality i dont think it would happen like that as its not so easy gaining regular loyal customers anymore and as you have been only going 3 years vin i think you may find that out the hard way. if you had 3 people interested all at once how would you cator for them giving them loyal decent customers that wont be the troubled 1 offs and messers. You cannot guarantee that there work will be to there needs, what if they are crap at cleaning and you forever are replacing 25-30 custermera a week, all the franchise papers would be signed so it would be on you to keep the work above the minimum required, just sounds a lot of hard work to me especialy when you get more and more franchises on board.

I could probably split what i have into 4 half decent franchise's but id be forever working for them canvassing and maintaining there customer base fixing there problems etc etc. i havnt got it in me to franchise but i do admire the guys that do and i hope it all works out for you vin.

Mick, lots of good comments:

"in reality i dont think it would happen like that as its not so easy gaining regular loyal customers anymore and as you have been only going 3 years vin i think you may find that out the hard way": Despite the fact that we haven't done ANY active marketing (i.e. other than the website) since the end of March last year, the phone keeps ringing.  And ringing.  And ringing.  We have turned away a silly number of prospective customers and still put loads onto our waiting list.  However, things may well have changed when it comes to trying to generate customers rapidly for a new starter.  If it's difficult, I'll just have to work harder and spend more money gaining customers.

"if you had 3 people interested all at once how would you cator for ...": I  wouldn't take on three at once.  The way it'll work is franchisee number one comes on and when he gets close to full, number two is taken on.  I will take up the slack between the first and second, as I really don't want to have to let down potential customers.

"loyal decent customers that wont be the troubled 1 offs and messers": Around 20% of our new customers don't get to the fourth clean.  After that we seem to have them till they move or die.  I'll live with that.

"what if they are crap at cleaning and you forever are replacing 25-30 custermera a week, all the franchise papers would be signed so it would be on you to keep the work above the minimum required": The franchise agreement covers that.  I also have to spend a lot of time selecting people who care about customers.

"I could probably split what i have into 4 half decent franchise's but id be forever working for them canvassing and maintaining there customer base fixing there problems etc etc. ": What you list as things you wouldn't like about it are the things I'd love.  I love gaining customers and I love solving problems.

" i hope it all works out for you vin."

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

And I thought that day was cold!  If I knew days like today existed I'd never have stepped out of the door.

I do need to thank Franky publicly for getting me off on the right foot three years ago (must have been about this time of year).

Sadly confused on the question of fans versus pencils (he had a brush with both!) but otherwise a terrific start in the game.

Didn't complain when during my first clean he did six.

Got me my first cup of coffee from a customer.

Thanks, Frank,

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

Does Vin do dogging too?

I flash my lights for no man.

Vin

[roundbuilder]

Thanks vin. You have obviously done your homework. I spoke to ian lancaster on the phone briefly earlier and he explained it isnt an overnight process getting a franchisee to the point where they have enough regular work but it did make sence even if takes 3 years you will get the franchisee to where he wants to be with the business.
i find it interesting you enjoy parts of the job that many dont but i guess that is what is going to make you a success in the franchise market. It is something for me to think about for in the future though.

[Silver Surfer]

Thanks vin. You have obviously done your homework. I spoke to ian lancaster on the phone briefly earlier and he explained it isnt an overnight process getting a franchisee to the point where they have enough regular work but it did make sence even if takes 3 years you will get the franchisee to where he wants to be with the business.
i find it interesting you enjoy parts of the job that many dont but i guess that is what is going to make you a success in the franchise market. It is something for me to think about for in the future though.

Can I be your first franchisee Mick!!!!!....

[roundbuilder]

Thanks vin. You have obviously done your homework. I spoke to ian lancaster on the phone briefly earlier and he explained it isnt an overnight process getting a franchisee to the point where they have enough regular work but it did make sence even if takes 3 years you will get the franchisee to where he wants to be with the business.
i find it interesting you enjoy parts of the job that many dont but i guess that is what is going to make you a success in the franchise market. It is something for me to think about for in the future though.

Can I be your first franchisee Mick!!!!!....

Lol sure why not.

[Silver Surfer]

Thanks vin. You have obviously done your homework. I spoke to ian lancaster on the phone briefly earlier and he explained it isnt an overnight process getting a franchisee to the point where they have enough regular work but it did make sence even if takes 3 years you will get the franchisee to where he wants to be with the business.
i find it interesting you enjoy parts of the job that many dont but i guess that is what is going to make you a success in the franchise market. It is something for me to think about for in the future though.

Can I be your first franchisee Mick!!!!!....

But only if i can have £3000 worth a week...

Lol sure why not.

[Perfect Windows]

Thanks vin. You have obviously done your homework. I spoke to ian lancaster on the phone briefly earlier and he explained it isnt an overnight process getting a franchisee to the point where they have enough regular work but it did make sence even if takes 3 years you will get the franchisee to where he wants to be with the business.
i find it interesting you enjoy parts of the job that many dont but i guess that is what is going to make you a success in the franchise market. It is something for me to think about for in the future though.

Yes, I've done all my homework but it's still an adventure.

The problem with 'three years to get a franchisee where they want to be' is that they have to pay their bills while you're doing that.  Fortunately I have leafletting down to an art where I can turn on a tap and generate business at a particular rate.  It also halps that I'm currently running quite a way over capacity so there's work to hand over on day one.  I don't envisage it taking long to get them their target turnover.

If you do decide to do it in future, feel free to give me a call; I'll have been through another learning experience and may be able to help.

Vin

[Frankybadboy]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

And I thought that day was cold!  If I knew days like today existed I'd never have stepped out of the door.

I do need to thank Franky publicly for getting me off on the right foot three years ago (must have been about this time of year).

Sadly confused on the question of fans versus pencils (he had a brush with both!) but otherwise a terrific start in the game.

Didn't complain when during my first clean he did six.

Got me my first cup of coffee from a customer.

Thanks, Frank,

Vin

thanks vin,
it was a really enjoyable day with you,i am so glad that you took the desesion to take it on,and even more pleased that you gone one step forward again and all within 3years.
it goes to show what happens when you put the hard gaft in and where you can get.

i wish you and your family all the best in the furture.

and if it was any one else i do the same.

love you all frank

[Ian101]

[/quote]

Yes, I've done all my homework but it's still an adventure.

The problem with 'three years to get a franchisee where they want to be' is that they have to pay their bills while you're doing that.  Fortunately I have leafletting down to an art where I can turn on a tap and generate business at a particular rate. 

Vin
[/quote]

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

[Pro-Poler]

His motive is money driven, nothing else, spend the 6 grand on your own set up, leaflet, canvass and earn your own money  

One of my motives is money.  Why are you a window cleaner?  Charity?

I have plenty of other motives as well.

Vin

I do give to charity

[Pro-Poler]

Yes, I've done all my homework but it's still an adventure.

The problem with 'three years to get a franchisee where they want to be' is that they have to pay their bills while you're doing that.  Fortunately I have leafletting down to an art where I can turn on a tap and generate business at a particular rate. 

Vin
[/quote]

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

[/quote]He won't share it because it's bull, no one gets work fom leafleting like turning on a tap

[Ian101]

Yes, I've done all my homework but it's still an adventure.

The problem with 'three years to get a franchisee where they want to be' is that they have to pay their bills while you're doing that.  Fortunately I have leafletting down to an art where I can turn on a tap and generate business at a particular rate. 

Vin

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

[/quote]He won't share it because it's bull, no one gets work fom leafleting like turning on a tap
[/quote]


you got rolly eyes ... mine dont work  

[Ian101]

oh yes they do 

[Perfect Windows]

He won't share it because it's bull, no one gets work fom leafleting like turning on a tap

I'm on the horns of a dilemma here.  Anyone who has waded this far through the thread will have noticed plenty of questions and comments, all constructive.  Then we have "Enrique"s contributions, which have been pure sniping.  I try to avoid dealing with personalities but it's clear that I'm going to have to bite the bullet and deal with the elephant in the room.

"Enrique" [edit: he's now calling himself "pro-poler"] on here is "Barby" on another forum I frequent.  I've made him look rather foolish a few times, which he's taken badly; he's clearly come over here to pursue his vendetta.  I've said before that I really do pity him, and I do, for a thousand reasons...

He says that "these franchises are cons", my "leafletting methods cannot work" and my "prices are unsustainable" without any evidence.  I'll leave it to you to decide whether his views are worth the effort of reading.  

I am sorry to have to deal with a personal attack.  I'll try to keep on the substance of the threads.

Vin

[Steve Sed]

My thoughts are that the idea and approach are clearly good. But I would have thought that if you give a turnover figure and you (Perfect Windows) are responsible for customer acquisition, then the turnover you advertise should be there from day 1 or soon after. Three years is too long and a total novice with a modicum of intelligence could get there on his own more quickly.

I would have thought that a better approach would be to start by employing, then selling the franchise to the employee(s) when the work is there/when you are ready.

As for turning the marketing on/off, the problem you will have is that assuming the franchise is geographical, you will struggle to get the same results in a confined area that you might expect from the whole are Perfect Windows cover.

[Perfect Windows]

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

Nothing secret about it.  There are plenty of threads where I do discuss it.

The core is keeping track of what you do.  If you just pop out and drop off a few leaflets you're working in the dark when calls come in.

I keep very accurate records of how many leaflets go out, by what method and where.  Then when someone calls we always ask exactly where they heard of us.  If it's a leaflet I know how it was delivered.

So, I know that overall, if I have 225 leaflets delivered solus (lots of posts on here about how I do this), I'll get a customer (not an enquiry, a customer).  Doesn't matter if it's an area I've covered before, I'll still get 1 per 225.

If I have leaflets delivered with the local free rag, I get one customer for around 800 leaflets.  However, those cost about a third as much to deliver as solus, so the cost isn't too far out.  It's also a lot quicker and easier to do.

The numbers in anyone else's area will be different, so don't base anything on this set.

So, if I need, say 200 customers, 45,000 leaflets will do it.

I hope that answers what you were looking for.

Thanks,

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

My thoughts are that the idea and approach are clearly good. But I would have thought that if you give a turnover figure and you (Perfect Windows) are responsible for customer acquisition, then the turnover you advertise should be there from day 1 or soon after. Three years is too long and a total novice with a modicum of intelligence could get there on his own more quickly.

I would have thought that a better approach would be to start by employing, then selling the franchise to the employee(s) when the work is there/when you are ready.

As for turning the marketing on/off, the problem you will have is that assuming the franchise is geographical, you will struggle to get the same results in a confined area that you might expect from the whole are Perfect Windows cover.

Hi Steve,

Just to clarify, someone else said "three years", not me.  I give over a chunk of work then I want to get them up to their target as fast as they can carry out first cleans.  Bear in mind, though, that at about an hour a pop, 300 first cleans will take twelve weeks of 25 hour weeks, so there is a limit to how fast someone can grow.

Ref the marketing, areas will overlap.  There may well be rationalisation of rounds as time goes on but initially, they'll be covering the city (though without the outlying areas), same as me.

Vin

[SunShineCleaning]

perfect windows is known as onion man on another forum I frequent, at least one other member has left that forum because of him and I have had others pm me telling me how he gets on their neves, he mysteriously left that forum only to recently return for the sole purpose of renting work out it was his first post when he went back.
  

I've left and rejoined this forum about 5 times now. Originally I was 'Bear'.

I have it in me to forgive him.

[Ian Lancaster]

My thoughts are that the idea and approach are clearly good. But I would have thought that if you give a turnover figure and you (Perfect Windows) are responsible for customer acquisition, then the turnover you advertise should be there from day 1 or soon after. Three years is too long and a total novice with a modicum of intelligence could get there on his own more quickly.

I would have thought that a better approach would be to start by employing, then selling the franchise to the employee(s) when the work is there/when you are ready.

As for turning the marketing on/off, the problem you will have is that assuming the franchise is geographical, you will struggle to get the same results in a confined area that you might expect from the whole are Perfect Windows cover.

Hi Steve,

There are 8 Franchised organisations apart from Vin's operating around the country based on my system, all of them successful, some more advanced than others.  Because our franchisees are not in competition with each other there are no exclusive geographical franchise areas.  All the various methods have been tried and tested over several years and I can assure anyone who is interested that they work, and work very well!

My advice to Franchisors is that it should take about 6 months to one year to develop a new start to the position where he(she) has as much work as required.  At the initial stage the new franchisee is asked how much they would like.  In practice they always overestimate and mine now average £750 to £1100 per week (their choice - "comfort levels").  I estimated this development time based on my previous experiences building several rounds.  Starting from scratch it should have taken me three years to appoint and develop six franchises.  In fact it took me just under four years.

As for having the turnover available from day one, as Vin has pointed out this is impractical as a new start would be completely overwhelmed and unable to cope.  

To start by employing would negate all the advantages of franchising as you would be required to register as an employer and then have the legal obligations and expenses involved, to say nothing of the extra unnecessary hassle.

Sorry to butt in,Vin

Cheers,

Ian

 

[Ian101]

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

Nothing secret about it.  There are plenty of threads where I do discuss it.

The core is keeping track of what you do.  If you just pop out and drop off a few leaflets you're working in the dark when calls come in.

I keep very accurate records of how many leaflets go out, by what method and where.  Then when someone calls we always ask exactly where they heard of us.  If it's a leaflet I know how it was delivered.

So, I know that overall, if I have 225 leaflets delivered solus (lots of posts on here about how I do this), I'll get a customer (not an enquiry, a customer).  Doesn't matter if it's an area I've covered before, I'll still get 1 per 225.

If I have leaflets delivered with the local free rag, I get one customer for around 800 leaflets.  However, those cost about a third as much to deliver as solus, so the cost isn't too far out.  It's also a lot quicker and easier to do.

The numbers in anyone else's area will be different, so don't base anything on this set.

So, if I need, say 200 customers, 45,000 leaflets will do it.

I hope that answers what you were looking for.

Thanks,

Vin

cheers Vin 

[Dave Willis]

Just a thought - is there a franchise forum or website out there where people go to find a job? There must be thousands of redundant workers itching to dump their lump sum and start a new life.

[SunShineCleaning]

http://www.startups.co.uk/franchising-forum

[Dave Willis]

http://www.startups.co.uk/franchising-forum

There you go Vin, stick it over there.

[Steve Sed]

Just thinking aloud and I'm sure that Ian has thoroughly investigated this, are there any issues regarding tax on this? If these businesses in effect act as employees in that you provide all the work, and they work wholly for you, do the Revenue not take exception? Or is there a totally different set of rules if you have a contract that says "franchise" at the top?

[Perfect Windows]

... only to recently return for the sole purpose of renting work out ...

Franchising is not renting.  This is a common misconception.

If you buy a franchise, you are buying the right to use the name, uniform, van style, leaflet style, etc, etc of the company.  You're also getting the expertise of the person selling the franchise along with training and ongoing support for as long as you need it.  In our case, you're getting a round management system and as many customers as you want.  You're part of a bigger business and the franchisor (if he has his head screwed on) will do anything to help you to succeed.

If you rent a round, you get a list of customers, you clean their windows and you pay the rent.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

Just thinking aloud and I'm sure that Ian has thoroughly investigated this, are there any issues regarding tax on this? If these businesses in effect act as employees in that you provide all the work, and they work wholly for you, do the Revenue not take exception? Or is there a totally different set of rules if you have a contract that says "franchise" at the top?

They are entirely separate businesses from the Franchisor and are treated as such.

Perhaps the biggest franchise you know is McDonalds.  Turn up, bung them £90,000 and they'll give you the right to use their brand, name, products and to live off the back of their advertising.  While there are very strict guidelines on how to operate, you are a completely separate business.

Vin

[Steve Sed]

Just thinking aloud and I'm sure that Ian has thoroughly investigated this, are there any issues regarding tax on this? If these businesses in effect act as employees in that you provide all the work, and they work wholly for you, do the Revenue not take exception? Or is there a totally different set of rules if you have a contract that says "franchise" at the top?

They are entirely separate businesses from the Franchisor and are treated as such.

Perhaps the biggest franchise you know is McDonalds.  Turn up, bung them £90,000 and they'll give you the right to use their brand, name, products and to live off the back of their advertising.  While there are very strict guidelines on how to operate, you are a completely separate business.

Vin

The thing is with McDonalds is that they would have a territorial division. I don't know. It could perhaps be perceived as a way of avoiding employer's liability in this instance. I am seeking to understand, not to criticise I should add.

[Tom White]

Mod hat on:  I've had a complaint about some posts in this thread.  Please keep the debate reasonable; we can robustly argue points without resorting to abusing fellow forum members.  I'm not going to change any of the previous posts, but will lock it if it degenerates.  Maybe temp ban someone too.  Hector probably, even though he's not posted in this one.  I just don't like him.

[Perfect Windows]

The thing is with McDonalds is that they would have a territorial division. I don't know. It could perhaps be perceived as a way of avoiding employer's liability in this instance. I am seeking to understand, not to criticise I should add.

I understand your motives.  I do liek comments because it makes me reconsider if everything I think is covered is indeed covered.

I've had a couple of very long chats with both my accountant and with a VAT tax planning specialist to make sure that the businesses are distinct enough to be classed as separate.  It's all been very involved but has resulted in structures that mean the tax people will see them as separate businesses.

I'm not being economical with the truth by not giving details, it's just reams and reams of dull stuff that isn't really worth posting.

The end result is that with a properly written franchise agreement which gives the certainty that the franchisees are truly running their own businesses (albeit with the support of the Franchisor) then the problem of employment (or, worse, amalgamation of the turnover for VAT purposes) isn't going to come up.

Vin

[sham33]

Perfect Windows, do you put your prices on your flyers? Sorry if you have already mentioned this but cant see it in thread.

Thanks.

[Window Washers]

The thing is with McDonalds is that they would have a territorial division. I don't know. It could perhaps be perceived as a way of avoiding employer's liability in this instance. I am seeking to understand, not to criticise I should add.

I understand your motives.  I do liek comments because it makes me reconsider if everything I think is covered is indeed covered.

I've had a couple of very long chats with both my accountant and with a VAT tax planning specialist to make sure that the businesses are distinct enough to be classed as separate.  It's all been very involved but has resulted in structures that mean the tax people will see them as separate businesses.

I'm not being economical with the truth by not giving details, it's just reams and reams of dull stuff that isn't really worth posting.

The end result is that with a properly written franchise agreement which gives the certainty that the franchisees are truly running their own businesses (albeit with the support of the Franchisor) then the problem of employment (or, worse, amalgamation of the turnover for VAT purposes) isn't going to come up.

Vin

who owns the customers ?

[wightsurf]

is it possible to own customers?

[Window Washers]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

[Ian Lancaster]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

[Window Washers]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

Ian, can you be a little more open on what your offer to people is ?

Please explain without going into detail to much how this is different (legal terms not needed) as your post is pointless, without shedding light on your answer.

not picking at you, im interested in this.

[Ian Lancaster]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

Ian, can you be a little more open on what your offer to people is ?

Please explain without going into detail to much how this is different (legal terms not needed) as your post is pointless, without shedding light on your answer.

not picking at you, im interested in this.

It's a Franchise.  It offers people the opportunity to own their own business under licence to me.  I take an initial fee and from that I provide to the Franchisee everything necessary except the van but including ongoing development of his customer base to run his own business and collect his fees for service to the customers in exchange for a percentage of his takings (the 'Royalty').

In the event of him terminating his Agreement (or having it terminated) his customer base reverts to me and I can appoint a new Franchisee to service it.

Think of any other Franchise you like: all the carpet cleaning Franchises, oven cleaning Franchises - they all operate the same way, the difference with ours is that we provide the customers, with all the others the Franchisee has to find his own customers but the customer base remains the property of the Franchisor

[Window Washers]

is it possible to own customers?

ok re-word, own customer list 

The Franchisor.  All detailed in the Franchise Agreement. 

Ian, can you be a little more open on what your offer to people is ?

Please explain without going into detail to much how this is different (legal terms not needed) as your post is pointless, without shedding light on your answer.

not picking at you, im interested in this.

It's a Franchise.  It offers people the opportunity to own their own business under licence to me.  I take an initial fee and from that I provide to the Franchisee everything necessary except the van but including ongoing development of his customer base to run his own business and collect his fees for service to the customers in exchange for a percentage of his takings (the 'Royalty').

In the event of him terminating his Agreement (or having it terminated) his customer base reverts to me and I can appoint a new Franchisee to service it.

Think of any other Franchise you like: all the carpet cleaning Franchises, oven cleaning Franchises - they all operate the same way, the difference with ours is that we provide the customers, with all the others the Franchisee has to find his own customers but the customer base remains the property of the Franchisor

and thats inforceable ? so what happens if said franchisee stops paying you and takes on there own customers in thier name, they are the face seen.
payments are they made to you or them ?

I can do this convo by phone at some point if you prefer, all my points are obsticles of my buying your agreement.

[Ian Lancaster]

Ian the whole essence of Franchising is the Agreement.  This is a legally binding agreement freely entered into by both parties and enforceable in law.

In practice if the Franchisee breached the Agreement you would have to take him to court and sue him for damages - it's a civil thing, not criminal.  The same thing applies to employment, although a lot of employment law comes under the criminal heading, things like breach of contract of employment are civil so if your employee breaches his agreement you would firstly sack him, then if he had caused you any damage (loss of income, defamation of character etc) you would sue him for damages.  Franchising has been around for a long time - franchise lawyers know exactly how to word an agreement to cover all the eventualities you can think of.

Can I suggest you compile a list of questions and e-mail them to me then I can deal with each one in turn.

Thanks,

Ian

[Dave Willis]

The hard work's been done by Ian lancaster, from what I've read - all the legalities have been gone through and his system obviously works. All his hard work can be purchased as a package to set your own franchise going.

Wish I'd had the brains to think of it 

[roundbuilder]

If the franchisee has a bit of ambition and drive then what is stopping them from going about it by thereself??
Its upto the home owner who cleans there windows is it not??? So weather the papers are signed or not if i worked for someone as a franchisee and felt that i wasnt getting as good of deal that was stated and decided i would go about it myself id hand the 6k buying in cost back and that be that. it would be easy for me after 2/3 years doing there windows to explain to all the customers that im not happy in the franchise and going to do it on my own without someone being in control of the houses and earning money from them no one actualy owns the right to decide who the customer wants to clean there windows.
Would it realy stand well in court for you if i did this?. Not that i would do this and hopefully no one will for you vin. Im just curious how it would work.
Cheers.

[Window Washers]

Ian the whole essence of Franchising is the Agreement.  This is a legally binding agreement freely entered into by both parties and enforceable in law.

In practice if the Franchisee breached the Agreement you would have to take him to court and sue him for damages - it's a civil thing, not criminal.  The same thing applies to employment, although a lot of employment law comes under the criminal heading, things like breach of contract of employment are civil so if your employee breaches his agreement you would firstly sack him, then if he had caused you any damage (loss of income, defamation of character etc) you would sue him for damages.  Franchising has been around for a long time - franchise lawyers know exactly how to word an agreement to cover all the eventualities you can think of.

Can I suggest you compile a list of questions and e-mail them to me then I can deal with each one in turn.

Thanks,

Ian

Cheers Ian will do when im bad in my office next week

[Perfect Windows]

Perfect Windows, do you put your prices on your flyers? Sorry if you have already mentioned this but cant see it in thread.

Thanks.

Yes I do.

Vin

[davids3511]

If the franchisee has a bit of ambition and drive then what is stopping them from going about it by thereself??
Its upto the home owner who cleans there windows is it not??? So weather the papers are signed or not if i worked for someone as a franchisee and felt that i wasnt getting as good of deal that was stated and decided i would go about it myself id hand the 6k buying in cost back and that be that. it would be easy for me after 2/3 years doing there windows to explain to all the customers that im not happy in the franchise and going to do it on my own without someone being in control of the houses and earning money from them no one actualy owns the right to decide who the customer wants to clean there windows.
Would it realy stand well in court for you if i did this?. Not that i would do this and hopefully no one will for you vin. Im just curious how it would work.
Cheers.

What's the point of a franchisee agreement if it didn't stand up? On a personal note, if someone did that to me I would do everything I could to ruin them. I would doorstep each customer, explain what had happened (ie how you ripped me off) tell them how important they are to my business and offer them 4 months free cleaning if they stayed with me. If I had to I would swallow the cost of having them cleaned for 4 months.

 I know I wouldn't get them all back but I would make a bloody big dent in what you though was your customer base. At the same time I would be going down every civil route possbile.

[roundbuilder]

If the franchisee has a bit of ambition and drive then what is stopping them from going about it by thereself??
Its upto the home owner who cleans there windows is it not??? So weather the papers are signed or not if i worked for someone as a franchisee and felt that i wasnt getting as good of deal that was stated and decided i would go about it myself id hand the 6k buying in cost back and that be that. it would be easy for me after 2/3 years doing there windows to explain to all the customers that im not happy in the franchise and going to do it on my own without someone being in control of the houses and earning money from them no one actualy owns the right to decide who the customer wants to clean there windows.
Would it realy stand well in court for you if i did this?. Not that i would do this and hopefully no one will for you vin. Im just curious how it would work.
Cheers.

What's the point of a franchisee agreement if it didn't stand up? On a personal note, if someone did that to me I would do everything I could to ruin them. I would doorstep each customer, explain what had happened (ie how you ripped me off) tell them how important they are to my business and offer them 4 months free cleaning if they stayed with me. If I had to I would swallow the cost of having them cleaned for 4 months.

 I know I wouldn't get them all back but I would make a bloody big dent in what you though was your customer base. At the same time I would be going down every civil route possbile.

Thats why i was asking. If the customer likes the window cleaner who has been doing them for 3 years and has already explained how the franchise worked to the customer and that they want to do them as there own with there permission then i cant see the franchisor havi g much joy gaining them back. Like i said i hope that wouldnt happen but it defo could.

[roundbuilder]

Flip side of thought. If you had a sexy redhead flirty woman who always had a good old chat with you who had been cleaning your windows for 3 years. She said to you that she has had enough of working for the franchise for whatever reason and asks if is ok to do them direct would you say no sorry the franchise owner who i havnt seen for 3 years has the rights to who cleans my windows or would you respect the girl setting up on her own and have her carry on doing them withought paying 20 percent to the franchise owner who only canvassed or leafleted that house for custom??.
That is how i believe that customers will see it if push came to shove.everyone likes a friendly/cheeky wc.
Customers are loyal to there reliable wc which is why i always chop and change things around with my rounds so no one gets to close to the action on a regular basis. With homeowners permission there is no stopping anyone doing there windows.

[dave0123]

Thats why i was asking. If the customer likes the window cleaner who has been doing them for 3 years and has already explained how the franchise worked to the customer and that they want to do them as there own with there permission then i cant see the franchisor havi g much joy gaining them back. Like i said i hope that wouldnt happen but it defo could.

so could staff though! even if you chop and change them around there not stupid they no what houses you do they could leave and go and nock on there door.

[roundbuilder]

Thats why i was asking. If the customer likes the window cleaner who has been doing them for 3 years and has already explained how the franchise worked to the customer and that they want to do them as there own with there permission then i cant see the franchisor havi g much joy gaining them back. Like i said i hope that wouldnt happen but it defo could.

so could staff though! even if you chop and change them around there not stupid they no what houses you do they could leave and go and nock on there door.

I agree anybody could do it if they wanted too if you let them in, part of the risk. Im not saying any franchisee's/emoyees are going to do this just if they do i cant see the contract being worth the paper its on. Only my opinion on the subject.

[Ian Lancaster]

As I said in an earlier post, it's all covered by the Franchise Agreement.  A fundamental part of any Franchise Agreement is a section called 'Post Termination Conditions'.  These are conditions that continue after the Agreement is terminated (for whatever reason).  When an Agreement is entered into, both parties are fully aware (or should be - the onus is on themselves to be sure they understand it) of all the conditions they are legally agreeing to.  In my case the Agreement states that for a period of 12 months following the termination of the agreement the (ex) franchisee may not approach any persons he knows to be customers of mine with the intention of offering his services as their window cleaner within a previously determined area of 10 miles radius.  (This would obviously be the area in which the majority of the customer he had been servicing resided)

By signing the Agreement both the Franchisor and Franchisee accept all the terms and conditions of the Agreement and if any breach is committed by either party the other would have grounds to sue.  This includes the Post Termination Conditions as above.

In practice if a Franchisee broke his Agreement and tried to continue servicing my customers within the determined area in a time of less than one year after the breach I would take action against him for damages.  This could result in the (ex) Franchisee having to sell his house or any other property he may own in order to pay the damages and costs the court would award me.

What he does after a year is his business, but by that time I would have another Franchisee firmly established which would make it very difficult for him to poach my customers away.

Before anyone points out the obvious let me say that any sensible Franchisor would ensure that his Franchisees had some property (a house with some equity in it, for instance) before appointing  them.

As I said before, franchising has been around for a long time.  It would not have survived if it were as easy as Mick Kent believes to break the Agreement and simply carry on as before.

Think of Franchises like Dyno Rod or VIP Bin Cleaners.  If it were so easy they would all be changing the wraps on their vans and going it alone.

[WGB]

wish you all the best vin,

3year ago was that meeting in the carpark

Does Vin do dogging too?

Belter lol

[Chris Cottrell]

As I said in an earlier post, it's all covered by the Franchise Agreement.  A fundamental part of any Franchise Agreement is a section called 'Post Termination Conditions'.  These are conditions that continue after the Agreement is terminated (for whatever reason).  When an Agreement is entered into, both parties are fully aware (or should be - the onus is on themselves to be sure they understand it) of all the conditions they are legally agreeing to.  In my case the Agreement states that for a period of 12 months following the termination of the agreement the (ex) franchisee may not approach any persons he knows to be customers of mine with the intention of offering his services as their window cleaner within a previously determined area of 10 miles radius.  (This would obviously be the area in which the majority of the customer he had been servicing resided)

By signing the Agreement both the Franchisor and Franchisee accept all the terms and conditions of the Agreement and if any breach is committed by either party the other would have grounds to sue.  This includes the Post Termination Conditions as above.

In practice if a Franchisee broke his Agreement and tried to continue servicing my customers within the determined area in a time of less than one year after the breach I would take action against him for damages.  This could result in the (ex) Franchisee having to sell his house or any other property he may own in order to pay the damages and costs the court would award me.

What he does after a year is his business, but by that time I would have another Franchisee firmly established which would make it very difficult for him to poach my customers away.

Before anyone points out the obvious let me say that any sensible Franchisor would ensure that his Franchisees had some property (a house with some equity in it, for instance) before appointing  them.

As I said before, franchising has been around for a long time.  It would not have survived if it were as easy as Mick Kent believes to break the Agreement and simply carry on as before.

Think of Franchises like Dyno Rod or VIP Bin Cleaners.  If it were so easy they would all be changing the wraps on their vans and going it alone.

Ian did i imagine it or didnt there used to be a sticky post at the top of the forum where you had written a guide to franchising if so is this still availible

[roundbuilder]

Thanks for confirming that its not upto the customer who they have clean there windows under the franchise contract. It has interested me that franchising is such a safe way to operate over employing. Food for thought.

Cheers.

[Ian Lancaster]

As I said in an earlier post, it's all covered by the Franchise Agreement.  A fundamental part of any Franchise Agreement is a section called 'Post Termination Conditions'.  These are conditions that continue after the Agreement is terminated (for whatever reason).  When an Agreement is entered into, both parties are fully aware (or should be - the onus is on themselves to be sure they understand it) of all the conditions they are legally agreeing to.  In my case the Agreement states that for a period of 12 months following the termination of the agreement the (ex) franchisee may not approach any persons he knows to be customers of mine with the intention of offering his services as their window cleaner within a previously determined area of 10 miles radius.  (This would obviously be the area in which the majority of the customer he had been servicing resided)

By signing the Agreement both the Franchisor and Franchisee accept all the terms and conditions of the Agreement and if any breach is committed by either party the other would have grounds to sue.  This includes the Post Termination Conditions as above.

In practice if a Franchisee broke his Agreement and tried to continue servicing my customers within the determined area in a time of less than one year after the breach I would take action against him for damages.  This could result in the (ex) Franchisee having to sell his house or any other property he may own in order to pay the damages and costs the court would award me.

What he does after a year is his business, but by that time I would have another Franchisee firmly established which would make it very difficult for him to poach my customers away.

Before anyone points out the obvious let me say that any sensible Franchisor would ensure that his Franchisees had some property (a house with some equity in it, for instance) before appointing  them.

As I said before, franchising has been around for a long time.  It would not have survived if it were as easy as Mick Kent believes to break the Agreement and simply carry on as before.

Think of Franchises like Dyno Rod or VIP Bin Cleaners.  If it were so easy they would all be changing the wraps on their vans and going it alone.

Ian did i imagine it or didnt there used to be a sticky post at the top of the forum where you had written a guide to franchising if so is this still availible

I think that may have been at the top of 'another forum'

I did a seminar at Windex several years ago and the PowerPoint presentation was available for some time afterwards.  It was fairly basic, just a series of pointers really, to help me with the talk.

[Ian Lancaster]

Thanks for confirming that its not upto the customer who they have clean there windows under the franchise contract. It has interested me that franchising is such a safe way to operate over employing. Food for thought.

Cheers.

To clarify: the customer has every right to choose who they want to clean their windows, it's just that in this instance, the one they may want to choose doesn't have the right to do it!

[WGB]

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

Nothing secret about it.  There are plenty of threads where I do discuss it.

The core is keeping track of what you do.  If you just pop out and drop off a few leaflets you're working in the dark when calls come in.

I keep very accurate records of how many leaflets go out, by what method and where.  Then when someone calls we always ask exactly where they heard of us.  If it's a leaflet I know how it was delivered.

So, I know that overall, if I have 225 leaflets delivered solus (lots of posts on here about how I do this), I'll get a customer (not an enquiry, a customer).  Doesn't matter if it's an area I've covered before, I'll still get 1 per 225.

If I have leaflets delivered with the local free rag, I get one customer for around 800 leaflets.  However, those cost about a third as much to deliver as solus, so the cost isn't too far out.  It's also a lot quicker and easier to do.

The numbers in anyone else's area will be different, so don't base anything on this set.

So, if I need, say 200 customers, 45,000 leaflets will do it.

I hope that answers what you were looking for.

Thanks,

Vin

Absolutely brilliant Vin, have been reading some of your other threads on leafleting and is main reason im going for mass leaflet drop this year!

[Steve Sed]

Would you care to share this info ? .............. I have heard it said that you work on ratios ?? ...... Ive always been a knock on the door type of person but now just going over to leaflets so any insight would be appreciated 

Nothing secret about it.  There are plenty of threads where I do discuss it.

The core is keeping track of what you do.  If you just pop out and drop off a few leaflets you're working in the dark when calls come in.

I keep very accurate records of how many leaflets go out, by what method and where.  Then when someone calls we always ask exactly where they heard of us.  If it's a leaflet I know how it was delivered.

So, I know that overall, if I have 225 leaflets delivered solus (lots of posts on here about how I do this), I'll get a customer (not an enquiry, a customer).  Doesn't matter if it's an area I've covered before, I'll still get 1 per 225.

If I have leaflets delivered with the local free rag, I get one customer for around 800 leaflets.  However, those cost about a third as much to deliver as solus, so the cost isn't too far out.  It's also a lot quicker and easier to do.

The numbers in anyone else's area will be different, so don't base anything on this set.

So, if I need, say 200 customers, 45,000 leaflets will do it.

I hope that answers what you were looking for.

Thanks,

Vin

Absolutely brilliant Vin, have been reading some of your other threads on leafleting and is main reason im going for mass leaflet drop this year!

Wasn't it Lee Pryor that was mass dropping?

[Joe Martin]

Good luck Vin, hope it all works for you.

[Perfect Windows]

Wasn't it Lee Pryor that was mass dropping?

Lee does indeed mass drop.

I have done mass drops in the past but then moved onto drip drops; steady, regular streams of leaflets going out week after week.  When I was filling up they were perfect, as I'd end up with a manageable number of first cleans each week.

One memorable mass drop got me thirty (IIRC) new customers in one day and left me in something of a state of panic.  The steady drip of calls was much more pleasant.

The good news about maintaining statistics on your drops is that if you want, say 20 customers, you have a good idea of how much to send out.  You won't end up with 5 and desperate or 40 and wondering how you're going to manage.

And, back on the subject of franchising, the franchisee doesn't have to worry about any of this; I do.  That's part of the expertise they are paying for.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

Good luck Vin, hope it all works for you.

Thanks, Joe.

The good news is that enquiries are starting to come in.

Vin

[Pro-Poler]

If I was a franchise and I told a customer that I have had a disagreement with the franchise holder and informed the customer who I have built up a trusting relationship with that I have to return their job to the franchise holder and the customer expressed a wish to stay with me not a franchise holder who doesn't clean their windows and they have not built a trusting realtionship with I think I'm pretty confident in saying it's up to any residential customer who they want to clean their windows.   

[Pro-Poler]

Thanks for confirming that its not upto the customer who they have clean there windows under the franchise contract. It has interested me that franchising is such a safe way to operate over employing. Food for thought.

Cheers.

To clarify: the customer has every right to choose who they want to clean their windows, it's just that in this instance, the one they may want to choose doesn't have the right to do it!

How is this policed?

[Ben wood]

The customer could go with you yes. But I bet the franchiser could then take you to court and get money out of you for breaking the agreement.

[Perfect Windows]

Thanks for confirming that its not upto the customer who they have clean there windows under the franchise contract. It has interested me that franchising is such a safe way to operate over employing. Food for thought.

Cheers.

To clarify: the customer has every right to choose who they want to clean their windows, it's just that in this instance, the one they may want to choose doesn't have the right to do it!

How is this policed?

This has been answered pretty comprehensively by Ian in the post above: http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=165222.msg1386903#msg1386903

Partial quote:

"...it's all covered by the Franchise Agreement.  A fundamental part of any Franchise Agreement is a section called 'Post Termination Conditions'.  These are conditions that continue after the Agreement is terminated (for whatever reason).  When an Agreement is entered into, both parties are fully aware (or should be - the onus is on themselves to be sure they understand it) of all the conditions they are legally agreeing to.  In my case the Agreement states that for a period of 12 months following the termination of the agreement the (ex) franchisee may not approach any persons he knows to be customers of mine with the intention of offering his services as their window cleaner within a previously determined area of 10 miles radius.  (This would obviously be the area in which the majority of the customer he had been servicing resided)

By signing the Agreement both the Franchisor and Franchisee accept all the terms and conditions of the Agreement and if any breach is committed by either party the other would have grounds to sue.  This includes the Post Termination Conditions as above."

I hope that clarifies.

Vin

[dave0123]

If I was a franchise and I told a customer that I have had a disagreement with the franchise holder and informed the customer who I have built up a trusting relationship with that I have to return their job to the franchise holder and the customer expressed a wish to stay with me not a franchise holder who doesn't clean their windows and they have not built a trusting relationship with I think I'm pretty confident in saying it's up to any residential customer who they want to clean their windows.

He's not saying the customer cant choose.. course they can they can have anyone want to clean there windows. but the person they would like to use who is the ex franchisee has signed a contract that he will not encroach or steel any customers that belong to the franchisor! .. how hard is it to work out :s its the same in a lot of employment contracts as well.

How is this policed?

How you mean how is it policed??? simply buy if you see him cleaning windows on the round you .. proceed taking him to court.. its legal both parties have signed up to it.. go and read the small print on an online shop - terms and conditions - no reads them but theres all sorts of clauses in them you agree by ticking the box wen buying something.

[Pro-Poler]

The customer could go with you yes. But I bet the franchiser could then take you to court and get money out of you for breaking the agreement.

This would be very hard to get to stand up in court, ultimately surely the occupier of the property has every right to select who ever they want to carry out work for them?  

[Perfect Windows]

One thing to stress that is perhaps being missed in all this talk of legalities is that if you get to the point of waving the franchise agreement around to back up an argument you're stuffed.  The secret, as in all relationships, is to keep talking and keeping everyone involved content with what's happening.

Frankly, if I ever had to get the franchise agreement out of the drawer, I'd consider myself to have failed in some way.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

The customer could go with you yes. But I bet the franchiser could then take you to court and get money out of you for breaking the agreement.

This would be very hard to get to stand up in court, ultimately surely the occupier of the property has every right to select who ever they want to carry out work for them?  

As has been said several times, you are absolutely correct.  The occupier of the property can choose whomever they want to clean their windows.

The ex-franchisee, however, will not be able to carry out cleaning without breach of contract, so won't be cleaning the customer's windows unless they want to breach the contract. 

Vin

[dave0123]

This would be very hard to get to stand up in court, ultimately surely the occupier of the property has every right to select who ever they want to carry out work for them?

It would quite easily stand up in court actually ive seen it happen in another business with regards to franchise some were made to pay a lot of money and went bankrupt through it. Its a long process and seen people loose weight over it from worry.. it certainly isnt something you'd want to do.

[Pro-Poler]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

[dave0123]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

you acting stupid on purpose now or something? lol

your just repeating questions that have been answered. NO ONE HAS SAID the house holder can choose who ever they want to choose... but the the ex franchisee can not clean the windows its the ex-franchisee is the person limited not the house holder.

If there disatified with the franchise's replacement or even company as u say.. then you get another window cleaner or don't use there services.

[♠Winp®oClean♠]

The way to do it would be for your wife/partner to start a window cleaning business & you then become employed by them!

[Perfect Windows]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

Yes, anything could happen (in an infinite universe, pigs could indeed fly) but you seem to be suggesting that the customer might be able to force the ex-franchisee to clean their windows despite the fact that the ex-franchisee would be in breach of contract with the franchisor.

And are you seriously suggesting that the customer would attend a court hearing about a civil case between two companies to get the judge to force someone to clean their windows?

OK, let me give you an analogy...

Hang on, it's not worth it is it?  You've caught me like this before and I know that you'll come up with another "what if", so unless you have a serious question I can't be bothered to address it.

Vin

[Perfect Windows]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

you acting stupid on purpose now or something? lol

your just repeating questions that have been answered. NO ONE HAS SAID the house holder can choose who ever they want to choose... but the the ex franchisee can not clean the windows its the ex-franchisee is the person limited not the house holder.

If there disatified with the franchise's replacement or even company as u say.. then you get another window cleaner or don't use there services.

Dave, don't get sucked into this; it's really not worth it.  It's like trying to swim in treacle, difficult and pointless.

Vin

[dave0123]

[quoteThe way to do it would be for your wife/partner to start a window cleaning business & you then become employed by them!][/quote]

Dont think that's allowed either same with employment contracts as you still woudn't be allowed to clean any of the houses employed self employed or director etc

[dave0123]

Dave, don't get sucked into this; it's really not worth it.  It's like trying to swim in treacle, difficult and pointless.

Vin

am not going to reply any more  its like talking to a wall.. all the same situations could happen with staff, however i actually think it would be more likely for a employed staff member to try steel customers than a franchisee or ex-franchisee.

Good luck with it mate

[Perfect Windows]

Good luck with it mate

Thank you.

Vin

[Pro-Poler]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

you acting stupid on purpose now or something? lol

your just repeating questions that have been answered. NO ONE HAS SAID the house holder can choose who ever they want to choose... but the the ex franchisee can not clean the windows its the ex-franchisee is the person limited not the house holder.

If there disatified with the franchise's replacement or even company as u say.. then you get another window cleaner or don't use there services.

No need for the abuse just trying to clarify the legal situation that's all If I was I just repeating questions that I saw answered then I wouldn't be asking them? I have seen many arrangements over the years with window cleaning enforcing contract agreements in a court of law could expose a lot of grey areas that's all.  

[Pro-Poler]

The way to do it would be for your wife/partner to start a window cleaning business & you then become employed by them!

One of many alternative arrangements that have come to my mind

[SunShineCleaning]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

you acting stupid on purpose now or something? lol

your just repeating questions that have been answered. NO ONE HAS SAID the house holder can choose who ever they want to choose... but the the ex franchisee can not clean the windows its the ex-franchisee is the person limited not the house holder.

If there disatified with the franchise's replacement or even company as u say.. then you get another window cleaner or don't use there services.

No need for the abuse just trying to clarify the legal situation that's all If I was I just repeating questions that I saw answered then I wouldn't be asking them? I have seen many arrangements over the years with window cleaning enforcing contract agreements in a court of law could expose a lot of grey areas that's all.  

Ok how about this situation.

I take on a Franchisee and after 12 months he says he will not pay my % and he is going to take all the customers our contract says belong to me.

He CAN do that and the customer may let him carry on, however, he is now in breach of contract as he signed to say he wouldn't do this.

No doubt you are still with me.

Who owns the customer = me
Who cleans the customer = whoever the householder wanted

I may NEVER get to see that customer again or ever clean his windows again however, I'm not really bothered about the customer and who he chooses. I go after the Franchisee who has broken our contract.

I win damages in the civil court and he pays me damages that will equal or exceed any value that the 'customer' would have brought going forward. The franchisee looses his house in the process all for not keeping the agreement.

Does this help?

[telfordwindowclnr]

Hi vin.

I have only read about half of this thread. It is your answers that interest me the most. From your answer, i could tell what the question is. I'm impressed with how you are handling this.

You have done your homework and know your subject field. You have replied swiftly with accurate facts and figures, been honest and polite. I am not interested in a franchise, I am too far away. But if I was, how you are handling this along with your knowledge would give me immense confidence as a potential franchisee. This is not a half-baked business proposition from which you hope to be rich.

I too have been doing homework but in a different field. I have only recently broken cover about my ideas and proposals. It takes guts eh???!!!   I too have come in for some flack and had to answer some tricky questions, which I have tried to do honestly and factually. You say you have other reasons apart from money for doing this. I maybe have an insight into those as they may be similar to mine with my project.

I think you have handled this with aplomb. You have been exemplary to some other members of the forum who's only aim seems to be to drag down and tear apart. I for one applaud you and wish you all of the success your ideas, homework and efforts deserve.  

[SunShineCleaning]

The way to do it would be for your wife/partner to start a window cleaning business & you then become employed by them!

One of many alternative arrangements that have come to my mind

No, the contract more likely than not states that they cannot approch or clean in the 10 mile radius for a full year.

One of my chaps set up frachising and the agreement is quite tight.

[Paul_Evans]

It looks very much to me like it's a very good idea. By the way, Perfect Windows seems to have got himself a stalker lol!! Enrique seem to have some sort of fixation with him. I suspect he's a tad jealous 

[Perfect Windows]

Hi vin.

I have only read about half of this thread. It is your answers that interest me the most. From your answer, i could tell what the question is. I'm impressed with how you are handling this.

You have done your homework and know your subject field. You have replied swiftly with accurate facts and figures, been honest and polite. I am not interested in a franchise, I am too far away. But if I was, how you are handling this along with your knowledge would give me immense confidence as a potential franchisee. This is not a half-baked business proposition from which you hope to be rich.

I too have been doing homework but in a different field. I have only recently broken cover about my ideas and proposals. It takes guts eh???!!!   I too have come in for some flack and had to answer some tricky questions, which I have tried to do honestly and factually. You say you have other reasons apart from money for doing this. I maybe have an insight into those as they may be similar to mine with my project.

I think you have handled this with aplomb. You have been exemplary to some other members of the forum who's only aim seems to be to drag down and tear apart. I for one applaud you and wish you all of the success your ideas, homework and efforts deserve.  

I'm touched, Steve, genuinely.

The thing about this is that it feels like a bigger step than starting out in the first place.  The responsibility rests heavily on me.  There's a guy contacted me today who has a wife and a young kid.  Can you imagine how I'll feel if I take him on, find I've got this all wrong and he loses money?  It's all very well pontificating about what will happen if a franchisee breaches term 23.1.3(a) of the contract but what matters to me is that I desperately need the franchisees to succeed.  Not because of the money but because failure this time would hurt other people.  If that sounds heartfelt, it's because it is.

Thanks again,

Vin

P.S. Would you have been so kind if you'd know that I'm the owner of solar-panel-cleaning.com?

[Perfect Windows]

... By the way, Perfect Windows seems to have got himself a stalker ...

Two people who phoned me today to discuss leafletting said exactly the same thing...

Vin

[telfordwindowclnr]

Hi vin.

I have only read about half of this thread. It is your answers that interest me the most. From your answer, i could tell what the question is. I'm impressed with how you are handling this.

You have done your homework and know your subject field. You have replied swiftly with accurate facts and figures, been honest and polite. I am not interested in a franchise, I am too far away. But if I was, how you are handling this along with your knowledge would give me immense confidence as a potential franchisee. This is not a half-baked business proposition from which you hope to be rich.

I too have been doing homework but in a different field. I have only recently broken cover about my ideas and proposals. It takes guts eh???!!!   I too have come in for some flack and had to answer some tricky questions, which I have tried to do honestly and factually. You say you have other reasons apart from money for doing this. I maybe have an insight into those as they may be similar to mine with my project.

I think you have handled this with aplomb. You have been exemplary to some other members of the forum who's only aim seems to be to drag down and tear apart. I for one applaud you and wish you all of the success your ideas, homework and efforts deserve.  

I'm touched, Steve, genuinely.

The thing about this is that it feels like a bigger step than starting out in the first place.  The responsibility rests heavily on me.  There's a guy contacted me today who has a wife and a young kid.  Can you imagine how I'll feel if I take him on, find I've got this all wrong and he loses money?  It's all very well pontificating about what will happen if a franchisee breaches term 23.1.3(a) of the contract but what matters to me is that I desperately need the franchisees to succeed.  Not because of the money but because failure this time would hurt other people.  If that sounds heartfelt, it's because it is.

Thanks again,

Vin

P.S. Would you have been so kind if you'd know that I'm the owner of solar-panel-cleaning.com?

  . Really??? Yes, I would actually. Entrepreneurialism, hard work and effort deserve recognition and praise.

[Perfect Windows]

... By the way, Perfect Windows seems to have got himself a stalker ...

Two people who phoned me today to discuss leafletting said exactly the same thing...

Vin

Now three.

Vin

[Dani J]

I can only see this being the case if the occupier of the property signed the contract surely the customer would have grounds to choose who they want they could be dissatisfied with the franchise holders replacement even the franchise holder themselves, the customer may even speak up in court expressing a desire to choose who they want to carry out work on their property.

As if a customer is going to court for choosing her own desired window cleaner 

Wake up man, what are you on about? 

[Dani J]

Hi vin.

I have only read about half of this thread. It is your answers that interest me the most. From your answer, i could tell what the question is. I'm impressed with how you are handling this.

You have done your homework and know your subject field. You have replied swiftly with accurate facts and figures, been honest and polite. I am not interested in a franchise, I am too far away. But if I was, how you are handling this along with your knowledge would give me immense confidence as a potential franchisee. This is not a half-baked business proposition from which you hope to be rich.

I too have been doing homework but in a different field. I have only recently broken cover about my ideas and proposals. It takes guts eh???!!!   I too have come in for some flack and had to answer some tricky questions, which I have tried to do honestly and factually. You say you have other reasons apart from money for doing this. I maybe have an insight into those as they may be similar to mine with my project.

I think you have handled this with aplomb. You have been exemplary to some other members of the forum who's only aim seems to be to drag down and tear apart. I for one applaud you and wish you all of the success your ideas, homework and efforts deserve.  

I  2nd that, yes well done vin.