charles-esquire

  • Posts: 1
Ladders and health & safety
« on: November 23, 2005, 10:05:51 am »
With regard to the phrase "reasonably practicable". I have had many request from people who are particular about having their windows cleaned properly, to take over the work from some one who has been using the pole system.

It seems then, that although a lot of people don't really look too closely at their windows  after they've been cleaned, and could therefore be termed as "satisfied customers" some  do and they are not happy with the quality they get   from  a pole cleaning system. It therefore follows that the pole system is not "reasonably practicable" for these windows.

 What do others think of the pole cleaning system then? Is it over hyped simply because it's trendy? Is it the complete answer to all our problems, or is it some thing in between?

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2005, 10:27:33 am »
Good Morning Charles

Like any service that is offered in any industry, you have people supplying a good quality service and then the others who do not offer that quality.

I use a wfp system and to date, I have never had one complaint or lost one customer. I am also the dearest window cleaner in my area. My customers are more than happy to pay the additional costs for me to clean their windows, due to the service and results I provide.

WFP, just like Traditional window cleaning requires skill and knowledge. If you do not learn how to use your equipment properly, you will have poor results.

I have taken on a new client last week, who was paying £7.50 to have her windows cleaned by a traditional cleaner. She was horrified at the streaks that where left on her windows. Now, I offer prospective clients 1 free window clean (one window only), so they can see what they are paying for. After this clean was performed, she is happy to go ahead and pay £15 per monthly visit.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if the tools are used with the right knowledge and care, then yes, wfp is more than practical to use.

Many Thanks

Andrew

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2005, 08:00:39 pm »
The arguments about "reasonably practical" dont stand up. If you can clean the window with WFP, you should use it. If you arn't cleaning the window to the customers satisfaction, you should look at the tecnique you adopt, not the equipment. People do say their WC was rubbish with WFP, but the reason is the individual, not the equipment.

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2005, 08:52:58 pm »
Has everybody gone?

Mike Hunt

  • Posts: 73
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2005, 09:52:00 pm »
Im a "no one" get me out of here's on.
             So much for macho window cleaners ::)

D.Salkeld_Ltd

  • Posts: 951
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2005, 12:00:56 am »
Hi All

Lets get one thing straight:

For the single residential small property window cleaner it is NOT NECASSARY to use a Water Fed Pole. 
Yes you can use a WFP if you want and obviousley do an excelent job but you do not NEED one.

Health and Safety and the new Working at Height Regulations DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT require you to use other methods of access than our trusted ladder because of:
The Low risk and short duration of work involved in smaller properties.

Health and safety have brought out new regulations not to hinder professionals because any Professional Window Cleaner will ALREADY be using the new guidlines.  HSE have introduced a lot of usefull information and advise that any professional would welcome.

If you are a Large Commercial property cleaner then that is a different matter!!
You would be an idiot to put a ladder up 40 - 60ft on sheet glass sided buildings!!!

David

Not Perfect - But Honest

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2005, 12:12:54 am »
You are right you do not need a wfp ,but from my point of view it would be foolish not to embrace this technology just for your own safety reasons. 

Your life and health is too important to risk your life everyday.
How would you pay the mortgage and feed your family if god forbid you ever had the mis-fortune to have a fall.

I certainly will not be taking the risk of using ladders any more,after 7 years on the ladder i consider myself to be very lucky never to have a serious fall,although i have had a few neart misses.

Dave

D.Salkeld_Ltd

  • Posts: 951
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2005, 12:35:45 am »
Hi Dave

I've ben in this trde 20 yrs in April 2006 and I have fallen.  Why? because I didn't follow the rules!!
As I said if you follow the rules you are unlikely to fall.
But of course all power to you mate, it's your choice!

And I must admit I am sereously considering WFP after a thourough Feezability study and reserch so as I get the right gear.  I am not about to spend £2000 unless I am sure it will be of benefit to my business

David
Not Perfect - But Honest

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2005, 07:49:43 am »
Hi All

Lets get one thing straight:

For the single residential small property window cleaner it is NOT NECASSARY to use a Water Fed Pole. 
Yes you can use a WFP if you want and obviousley do an excelent job but you do not NEED one.

Health and Safety and the new Working at Height Regulations DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT require you to use other methods of access than our trusted ladder because of:
The Low risk and short duration of work involved in smaller properties.

Health and safety have brought out new regulations not to hinder professionals because any Professional Window Cleaner will ALREADY be using the new guidlines.  HSE have introduced a lot of usefull information and advise that any professional would welcome.

If you are a Large Commercial property cleaner then that is a different matter!!
You would be an idiot to put a ladder up 40 - 60ft on sheet glass sided buildings!!!

David



Sorry Dave, but you are not right on that. The short duration does NOT refer to the time we spend up the ladder doing any individual window, but the time we spend up a ladder any given day.
The short duration was intended to apply to the occasional user. IE,  shop keeper putting up a sign.
In any case, if you re-read the legislation, the section on how to use them would show the lenghts we should go to to secure the ladders.

I'm like you doing the risk assessment first, but I know what the results will be. So do most WCers, sadly many have their heads in the sand.

THE BEAR

steve k

Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2005, 07:58:17 am »
just a point to consider with the expected freeze...if your pole system is likely to leave a puddle of water in an area pedestrians may be likely to use and there is a risk of that water freezing and presenting a hazard, then a safer option must be considered which unless you cart a full scaffold around with you must be the trusty ladder. Adhering to safe ladder practice is of course, essential.
You may be carrying salt around but is this really practical?

I have a van based WFP and traditional tools. The pole has brought me some great, well paying custom where trad could never be used safely but I also have great existing customers where WFP just does not do the job...sash/oxidised/poorly maintained painted frames etc... on these I am happy to revert to traditional and only do standard semis in this way.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2005, 10:08:43 am »
Carrying a container of road salt around is no problem, I have one all full up and ready to use should the water start freezing up on the ground. Doesn't take any time at all to sprinkle some where you are about to work.

As Andrew has said, the quality of the work is down to the operator, not the equipment, and that applies equally to the trad user too!

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

D.Salkeld_Ltd

  • Posts: 951
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2005, 05:35:45 pm »
Quote
Hi All

Lets get one thing straight:

For the single residential small property window cleaner it is NOT NECASSARY to use a Water Fed Pole. 
Yes you can use a WFP if you want and obviousley do an excelent job but you do not NEED one.

Health and Safety and the new Working at Height Regulations DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT require you to use other methods of access than our trusted ladder because of:
The Low risk and short duration of work involved in smaller properties.

Health and safety have brought out new regulations not to hinder professionals because any Professional Window Cleaner will ALREADY be using the new guidlines.  HSE have introduced a lot of usefull information and advise that any professional would welcome.

If you are a Large Commercial property cleaner then that is a different matter!!
You would be an idiot to put a ladder up 40 - 60ft on sheet glass sided buildings!!!

David



Sorry Dave, but you are not right on that. The short duration does NOT refer to the time we spend up the ladder doing any individual window, but the time we spend up a ladder any given day.
The short duration was intended to apply to the occasional user. IE, shop keeper putting up a sign.
In any case, if you re-read the legislation, the section on how to use them would show the lenghts we should go to to secure the ladders.

I'm like you doing the risk assessment first, but I know what the results will be. So do most WCers, sadly many have their heads in the sand.

THE BEAR

Evening Mr BEAR

Hope youve had a good day.  In reply to your point.  Please refer to
www.hse.gov.uk/falls/downloads/6.pdf
Page 41,
Even a good old Bear can clean a window in less than 30 mins!!
Not Perfect - But Honest

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2005, 10:36:44 pm »
CHARLES:JUST DONE A FIRST CLEAN ON SOME NEW WORK IVE BOUGHT:Didnt know this one house had another window cleaner as well,has them done by one then 2 weeks later  Im to do them.Not anymore is this arrangement continueing hes cancelled the other w/c cus he likes the results wfp does,and payed 4 cleans in advance ;D so tell me whos and whats crap,Ipersonally will take any work off anyone using ladders,cus all Ive heard around here in Nottm is them things are crap
THEY BURY THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND,CUS THEIR TO TIGHT TO DIP IN THEIR POCKETS,THEY DECIDE TO CALL IT DOWN.Me and Brett are rocking good wfp users
and do a good job its all down to the operator.

 gaza
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2005, 11:12:16 pm »
THEY BURY THEIR HEADS IN THE SAND,CUS THEIR TO TIGHT TO DIP IN THEIR POCKETS
Oh here we go again.... ::)

Nothing to with being tight.
Some people genuinely haven't got the funds, and others like myself don't want all the extra crap to worry about.

Bury our heads in the sand? I know all I need to know about the troublesome spot makers and I still don't want one. Nor do a lot of of people I know.

I'm sure you're a fine w/c'er and use your kit as good as anyone, but it'll let you down time and time again.

As for taking work off us, ho ho! No chance of that down here.
I've never lost one, and picked up 8 or 9 now from water-fad-pole users.

Keep on poling, more work for the professional grafters. ;)

Rog.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2005, 11:14:05 pm »
Lit the fuse..... :o

Stephen@Belper

  • Posts: 32
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2005, 11:39:27 pm »
Hi All

Lets get one thing straight:

For the single residential small property window cleaner it is NOT NECASSARY to use a Water Fed Pole.
Yes you can use a WFP if you want and obviousley do an excelent job but you do not NEED one.

Health and Safety and the new Working at Height Regulations DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT require you to use other methods of access than our trusted ladder because of:
The Low risk and short duration of work involved in smaller properties.

Health and safety have brought out new regulations not to hinder professionals because any Professional Window Cleaner will ALREADY be using the new guidlines. HSE have introduced a lot of usefull information and advise that any professional would welcome.

If you are a Large Commercial property cleaner then that is a different matter!!
You would be an idiot to put a ladder up 40 - 60ft on sheet glass sided buildings!!!

David




Have you not read the press release from HSE 12/9/05?

"these regs do not ban ladders but they say they should be used ONLY when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out"

quite clear................................THe praticticality of wfp has been proved without any doubt even for residential work, Bury your head in the sand all you like but there's no escaping the facts. We changed once (chamois to squegee) we will have to do it again if we have not already done so. Whats the big deal it doesn't have to cost the earth. You get it back in no time anyway the speed you can work with a pole. I got so much more work in the 6 weeks since I changed I dont know what to do with it all, even the most picky customers have said they are happy with the results. If you use wfp properly it does a far better job than trad.

brett walker

  • Posts: 1943
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2005, 11:54:18 pm »
Before WFP when we all decided we were going to become window cleaners we all knew that ladders would play a big part in our work.  Although wfp is new technology and safer and another peice of kit, i believe we will still all need to use ladders at some point for flat roofs, opening gates etc etc.

So the difference in opinion with wfp and ladders is just going round in circles lets wait and see if the ladder is completely banned ! :o
I am quite happy to do wfp and ladder work because we need both. 8)

A trades man does'nt need just one tool he needs a tool kit ;)

regards

Brett


Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2005, 12:02:58 am »
"these regs do not ban ladders but they say they should be used ONLY when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out"

If you use wfp properly it does a far better job than trad.
The alternative is ruled out if you don't own wfp, hence I am doing it by my safest means available. Not the first time I've written this. Haven't we been here before?

A far better job?!! :D Tell that to the people who's work I've taken.
So you clean the frames....well done, now for the glass.....

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2005, 06:42:23 am »
Rog,
Your arguement that as you don't have WFP, then ladders are the safe and only option doesn't hold water.

Brett,
I generally agree with you, but I would qualify slightly the bit about using ladder for flat roofs, getting over walls, fences, gates and so on....
You aren't working off ladders, you are merely using them for necessary access, and there is no other option but to use them....mind you, you would have your pole, so you could always try and pole-vault  over that wall or onto that flat roof! ;D

Ladders or WFP will of course be discussed often on here and other forums, and the arguements will oft be repeated, no one will truly nail it one way or the other.

Problems with ladder use will crop up with insurance claims, and even the domestic cleaner is going to have to get some generic method statements and risk assessments in place, lack of those may well affect claims too.

As time passes, greater and greater pressure will come to bear on ladder users to change.
How much time will pass before you are left with no option is a moot point, but come it will.
Rog keeps carping on about spots, it rarely happens if you do your job properly.
He could also point out that the shop his missus works at has complained about spots on the windows that I HAVE CLEANED!!
He'd be right too, but the insides hadn't been cleaned for more than 3 years (They've done a sh*te job of doing it themselves now too ::))
The windows are of very, very old varnished hardwood; they too haven't been re-varnished for a great many years, so I know that spots are a likelihood, but the overall finish was better than doing it trad.
I'm actually cleaning those windows in an hour or so time, attention to detail will be paid!
But I am pretty sure I'll have to squeegee and detail the 50 or so panes.

The point I am so convolutedly making is that you know which windows are likely to leave spots, and when you do, you work accordingly.
I've got away with this one for 18 months because the insides were in such a grimy state you couldn't see any spots.
I also do the two shops either side, and they come up absolutely immaculate.

WFP won't ever replace trad, won't completely replace the ladder either, but in a couple of years you'll only be using ladders for access or the occasional window that cannot be done any other way.

So plan for it, at some point in the near future, to continue cleaning windows you'll have to change.

If all you are doing is priming your customers for the inevitable then do so, it might be 5 years until you go WFP, but if you spend those 5 years telling your customers that WFP is crap, then you are really going to have an uphill struggle in front of you.

Play the long game dudes.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Ladders and health & safety
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2005, 09:46:00 am »
IAN:VERY VERY VALID POINT THERE CRAP,BUT BY LAW IVE GOT TO USE ONE NOW ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ENTER THE ARENA ONE SILLY LOOKING W/C WITH EGG ON HIS FACE,WHOS CUSTOMERS THINK IS A CLOWN,TURN COAT AT LEAST.

IVE PREDICTED 2 YRS ALL CHANGE ON HS LAW RE LADDERS,EVEN PUT IT ON HERE
MY PRIDICTION,READ SOMEWHERE THAT THE H/S ARE TIGHTENING THE USE OF LADDERS THIS NEXT FEW MONTHS.

JUST THINK HS HAVE PUSHED THE CHANGE IN THE LAW TO HELP DECREASE 10% OF DEATHS BY FALLS FROM HEIGHT,ASK YOURSELF WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF THEY  DONT ACHIEVE THIS TARGET,DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOIING TO SAY WE TRIED AND OTHER PEOPLE DIED.HEADS WILL ROLL AT H/S/E AND A NEW DRAFT OF TIGHTER REGS WILL BE INTRODUCED. ??? WHAT WILL LADDER USERS DO THEN POOR THINGS
BY THE WAY I STILL USE LADDERS ON A LOT OF MY WORK WITH A ROJAK AND MITTS,MOST W/C ARE TO TIGHT TO EVEN FORK OUT FOR THESE.
MY NEXT POSTING WILL BE HOW MANY W/C USE LADDERS USE A SAFETY DEVICE?

 GAZA
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO