[ian richards]

Mike Boxall did a post yesterday intitled THINK BEFORE YOU POST
He, as do other moderators, think that some of the topics that have been posted on here just of late, are somewhat regarded as unprofessional!!

I, like others , agree with him and his colleagues, that there is no place for those sort of topics and remarks placed on here, by those said certain individuals who have recently joined this foum.
They know who they are, and they are ruining what was at once, an extremelly good Forum  

So.....      Do we get rid of them or not??

Please, please vote


Ian

[eco freindly. peoples champion ron .sherlock]

ian it seems sad that cencorship on a forum is being exercized, ans whilst i feel that i may be one who has been over zealous in certain areas. that may be to the fact that it is new to certain people and maybe they need time to get into gear. if however because of remarks posted is not to everybodys thought of correct procedure then a forum does not act as a impartial point of view. i do understand that offensive or abbusive replys or topics can be harmfull. it is the general replys that should determine the outcome. we all learn from mistakes.and indeed they should be removed. but lets not be unfair. i for one have only used a computer recently. and therefor only been involved in forums for a short time. it does not mean that i am unable to say what i think. but maybe not with the finnesse of others. i am controversial but i also listen and learn

[Martin S]

Ian,

Voting is split at the time of writing this.

Maybe you should have added ''advice by the moderator/sponsor (by PM if needs be) on the etiquette required, and then impose a ban if they still fail to comply''

It's a difficult one, as people should have a right to free speech, but....................Consideration also has to be given to the fact that as this forum is sponsored by Express Cleaning supplies they would not want there reputation to be associated with derogatory or unprofessional words or behaviour.

That said, there is nothing wrong with a laugh and a joke, and more established members of this forum will in general criticize, disagree, or take the Mick' out of other members.  The difference is, that this is said, and meant, generally, in friendly banter and good spirit.

The newer members ought to be given the chance to get a feel for the way the forum runs, and adjust their approach accordingly.

People like Sherlock or Don (to name but two) do quite clearly posess knowledge, experience and ideas that would be helpful to other forum members, and whilst some of the things that have been said are IMO a bit near the knuckle, maybe they should be given the chance to redeem themselves.

That's not having a pop at you Sherlock and Don as individuals, but I'm sure you are aware that you, and others, are what the subject matter of this thread is directed at.

Regards.

Martin

[Karl Wildey]

Some people will have place posts on here whilst in a bad mood and they may then regret this, even the nice established and profession ones on here have rub people up the wrong way.
My understanding of Barry is that he is a very professional rug cleaner and has a lot of knowledge, we can all gain from, but his post 'con artiste', did not show this and maybe was a blip on his behalf.
Sherlock started out as being a total pain in the rear, but as time moves on he has started to stop winding people up and has made several good points.
Maybe a 3 strikes (or similar)and then your off system is needed.  A PM from the moderator, may make people realise that this is suppose to be a professional site not a joke, (excluding some posts for fun).

[ian richards]

Martin/Karl


You both make valid points. I think that the idea of 3 strikes and your out is a good one, and should be deemed by the moderator as to wether or not they get a warning. As you know, like others on this forum i dont mind having a laugh and a joke but it has to be said that there is being professional and there isnt.   Yes, we do all make mistakes, and that includes myself, but you do have to remember that the general public can, and do access this site.

Sherlock does obviously have a degree of knowledge, but to what degree i do not know!! Wet cleaning a jute carpet with extraction i mean now come on!! I feel that on to many occasions, he has been left with egg on his face. Remember you have quite a few newbies on here and the guy who posted the question about jute, or Duke as he refered to it, was about to clean the thing   if it hadn't been for others on here who told the guy not to go anwhere near it, the guy could have been in a right fix . Can you imagine if the guy would have acted on his first responce, he would have quite possibly, been left owning the thing
That to me says, that Sherlock isnt as experienced as what he makes out!!

Sherlock 

I realy don't have a personal problem with you, in fact i do find you quite funny at times, and the above reply is possibly the most sensible thing you have ever put on here.

But you aint no John Bolton and you aint no Ken Wainright, so stop pretending to be

Ian

   

[Barry Pearce]

Karl.
I make no excuse for asking questions about "Just how do we clean the trade up?"--"What is accepable as working practace" etc, etc,I dont want to hear or read about the problems, I've over 30 years of practical experence of having to go out and deal with the mess, misery, and upset that these so called professional CCs have created, and the Public ask why?, Trading Standards, Insurance Companys ask what can be done?
And it is not getting any better
Barry

[paul@ctcs]

Barry,

Your post was not worded that way, It simply read if your doing ok from carpet cleaning then your a con man!!

You need to think before you type!

Paul

[strakercleaning]

I have been on the wrong end of fallout from a post that someone deemed offensive, so i know what transpires.
I did the honourable thing and withdrew from the forum. I was not pushed and would have fought back if that was the case. I left for my own reasons and to diffuse the situation. If someone is booted of the forum, then as we know, they will sneak back in with another name and ip address. Not everyone who sneaks in under an alias has evil intent but some do and probably will.
The 3 strike rule as pm to poster is a good idea and could have solved my situation without any animosity.
Let us hope that the persons concerned have taken some of these points, in the thread, onboard and act accordingly
ps. As Karl mentioned, not a good idea coming on here with the hump or when you roll in from the pub 

[Barry Pearce]

Paul@ctcs
CON, To trick, One with a persuasive way of talking.. I have never made a moral stand that I am something pure, Im not beyond claiming to be better than I realy am. For me to progress I need a customer to believe in me. And then there are claims and promises made by some  that are-----------beyond words.
Hypothetically. The worst thing that could happen to society but the best thing that could happen to the cleaning fraternity would be for high profile court case of a CC convicted of serial rapes, at a stroke every CC would be out of work for a week and only  the franchies's and the bona fide trade association members would survive, everybody would have to be certificated, numbered, and named, now that would be at its worst , but short of legislation, how do we clean our act up.
Barry

[Karl Wildey]

Barry,

Paul comments sum up your post and why it upset a lot on this forum, maybe you need to think about the wording in future.

But you are right to question the standards of this industry and I totally agree with your comments. However time served is not answer. I have been in the trade 18 years now, I started out being taught by my dad and read the ascombe distribors cc book, Thats all. 10 years later I went on my first course (IICRC at Royston). Before I attended the course I commented to a friend 'what can they teach me about carpet cleaning, I don't already know'. How wrong. I was embrassed by my lack of knowledge of anything to do with carpets, construction, pile, PH scale, chemicals, you name it.
I then spent a few years going on as many courses as possible (including rug cleaning) and now I am a professional cc.
In the first 10 years you could place me in the typical cc bracket.' I think I know it all, I have never had any training, but I have been in business x amount of years', so I must be good. No you are not.

Time served does not make you a good cc, its the training, with common sense that make you a good cc.

The problem is getting worse, due to the increase in unskill cc's, they are now more going on NCCA/IICRC course than every before,but the number of cc is growing daily. See how many newbies are on this site.
What we need to do is encourage the training and right ways to clean, not have all this craziness about cleaning suites with carpet wands, wet cleaning jute rugs, sweeting peoples tea because you did not like the person etc.
These people made mistakes, hopefully they will learn that this is not the way profesional cc work, before they ruin they own businesses.

[Matt Read]

I can't think of the names of trade associations for builders plasterers sparky's carpenters, the only one that springs to mind is corgi for plumbers and thats prob cos they can kill you with shoddy workmanship.

I think you should stop tarring all cc's with the cowboy tag barry, a good friend of yours held a cc seminar recently and he told of countless probs he's encountered over the years and i beleive he is a director of the ncca,,,it happens.

I personally think a forum like this is great for asking even the daftest of questions because at least that way newbies will feel more confident and hopefully practice techniques passed on by people like john bolton woodman and countless others who have been there and done it. No amount of training will make you a good carpet cleaner, it will just improve your chances of becoming one, and as this isn't a trade you can easily get an apprenticeship in, as most cc's work alone, then surely a forum like this, to log onto after doing a quote, to ask for some practical advice on a possible problem can only be good for the trade. It can also be a lonely trade and camaraderie amongst us all would go a long way to getting us cleaning to certain standards ,,the more you hear about microsplitters, different cleaning techniques ,drying times etc etc the more you want to improve and reach the heights of the seasoned profesionals who prob really don't need to make the effort to post on here. I have to say as a reasonably experienced cc that the first place i would go to ,after a couple of local cc pals , for advice would be here and mostly you can post just about any problem and you will get great replies and advice. I don't think one rapist/serial killing cc would turn the trade round either if anything, as to most people its just a news story, it would prob make more of the public aware that people do have their carpets cleaned ! I can't beleive i acknowleged that statement 

[windows_chepstow]

Hello

I am going, dont worry

I wont write anymore gay posts

John

John, if you go, you go; you know my feelings on your post, and they weren't negative.

This post is more than likely directed at those (like myself) who'll have a beer and then go way off the cleaning topic.  Also Duke, Graham 'Ghoul', MalcG are but a few regular posters who do it often.  But they also have a wealth of knowledge that they pass on in other more serious threads. 

Have a look at some of the moderator's back topics.  They've all been guilty of this (at least the mods on the window cleaning part of this site).

Many of us have started innapropriate threads and had them locked or deleted.  Even my avatar is a jibe at the way Philip (window cleaning moderator) has spanked me - on more than one occassion.

My personal thought is that a little bit of fun mixed up with the serious stuff keeps people looking in here and prevents the forum from becoming too dry.  I think that's understood by Mike Boxall; and he tolerates the fun.  As long as it isn't offensive to anyone or group of people; he generally lets it pass.

Anyway, that's my outlook on the matter.  If as you say, you've been PM'd by another cleaning site, I think I know with some certainty what site that is.  Especially as you say you've been told not to mention the name of it.

I can't speak for the carpet cleaning lot, but the window cleaning members are generally a friendly lot.  You'll do a lot worse at the other site.  There's already a negative sounding thread about your post there.

Stick with us mate, we're nicer.

[Ian Gourlay]

I would have voted to let them stay, but find for some reason I have been locked out.  but you might find a few more posts are deleted in the future.
I am also unable to review results.
I adjusted one of my own yesterday

I will just have to take the stick when people start complaining.

This section should only cover Carpet Cleaning Topics.

[stevegunn]

So will there be a section for other topics to be posted because it will become very dull if not

[Ian Gourlay]

Steve,

I understand what you are saying, and your football topic got a good response.

Perhaps we should have another pole


On should this section just have carpet cleaning related topics.

[Don Atkinson]

I do hope that I am not listed as a 'trouble maker'. Over the time I have posted some very informative info about correct marketing and how to kick start business.
I have always maintained a good professional standard in regards to my posts, never in my time have I ever posted anything derogatory or insulted anyone.

75% of homes now have Laminate flooring, people now buy to chuck carpets, 13x15 80/20 Carpets can now be supplied and fitted for £80.00, Hotels/Night clubs/Pubs NOW have professional cleaning equipment to DIY.

Im sorry but this trade is in decline and that is a very clear fact, in the next few years the only people who will be serving this industry will be the guys who have long established business with vast data bases and have firm relationships with domestic and commercial customers.
This said it makes me laugh so much when I read some of the threads regarding advertising on this site, I often wonder if any of you are professionals?

Your all like Milkmen in the 80s "No supermarkets wont affect us", Hard flooring is here to STAY and yes its going to have a massive impact all us unless you are willing to put up a fight. The next generation are drifting through now, all the elders who love carpet are soon going to be gone.

That's the last post from me, but remember that a blinkered opinion will see your business fail.
I will always make good money because I can sell very effectively and diversify to make deals but I do feel very sad and hope you people who walk the streets every day with leaflets find some luck someday.

Over and out, Best of luck
Don

[strakercleaning]

Don,
With that kind of approach............. you WILL be sorely missed 

[garyj]

20 mins after signing off your still here!!!!

[garyj]

 

Byeeeee

[Gavin Reardon]

Meow  ladies :

[Derek]

My two pennies worth..

Matt ...I think you were referring to me passing on information at the seminar last week. Most of the problems I discussed were as a result of various problems I have encountered over the years by several means..

1. Consultancy/trouble shooting for a major warranty company

2. Similar with manufacturer of a main proprietary branded product.

3. Training and networking with NCCA members and also the Scotchcare network.

I have been lucky to be able to learn from other peoples problems and sometimes mistakes... often I have been able to solve those problems for them

Many of the recent highly contraversial comments on this forum should be looked at in context and not just by assuming that those points are aimed at you personally.

Training is fine providing people absorb the information gained and utilising the bit between their ears use that information to good effect...sadly many think they know better so go on to foul up.

Don does have a point and I have written articles for Trade Magazines in similar vein so why persecute him, there may well be some truth in there... just read and think about his words carefully

Surely one has to have an open mind at all times and weigh up the odds to the benefit of your own business... it could save it!

Derek

[Len Gribble]

I’m not into banning any one unless they continually break the rules of the forums, then I thinking that’s up to the owner of said forums.

Bit surprised at Don throwing his rattle out of the pram very sad and in some cases professional.

Forums are to exchange knowledge and experiences plus the banter, nearly forgot networking.

Ian

Can you elaborate on you quote? “but you might find a few more posts are deleted in the future”

Matt

Corgi is for gas fitters plumbers tag this on!

Len

[Matt Read]

Sorry Derek wasn't intended to put you in a bad light(hope your recovering well)...just makes my blood boil when the main theme has been you're never too experienced to learn something new,yet we get comments that we're all con artiste's /cowboys...i'm sure there's lots out there as barry says but i doubt very much they contribute/read  forums like this, more likely they're down the pub with the days connings.

len ..i haven't heard of a trade association for plumbers either then !

recomendation is the best form of advertising as we all know,,i doubt many cowboy cc's get recomended so i guess we can work out ourselves which catagory we come under.

[Barry Pearce]

Derek,
 if we all chipped in some loose change whilst you are on the sick, you would be very rich man.
To some of the doubters.
If there were 204 differant members replying to the forums because they felt  it is important to make a point, then think on. What about the other 5300 members, the silent majority who just browse and think, they do not want to be intimidated by the brash, the know it alls, the dissapointed sugar sweetners.
My off site emails have gone through the roof and I appear to have touched a raw nerve of concern, and would you believe it, mostly from newbies, and so many of them have been in and out of work, 6 redundencies for one,and for the first time they feel important, there is pride,and you have to be proud if you are wiping the skirting boards and brushing the carpet as you go out the room, for many it is the last chance saloon and they are so keen and trained but also concerned about those don't and won't train up and they hear most of the horror stories from their customers, the common thread seems to be "what can be done to put our house in order."
Barry

[DanielWelford]

I think it is all down to the customers perception/expectation that defines our business.

Some only want to pay low prices, thus falling into the alleged splash/dash/cowboy category, others will pay more for what they perceive will be a better job.

Like all industries there are different levels of service. Just because one differs friom the other & indeed may be inferior in quality, does not necessarily make one a crap job.

For example easy jet are cheap, BA expensive. Both provide same service, but different quality, but the customers of each respective service are happy.

I think it is time to accept this and stop harping on about splash/dash this & that, because whilst there is a customer base requiring that level of service, then the cleaners who are prepared to operate at that cost level will always exist.

Blah blah blah

Dan

[John_Flynn]

If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!!!  Springs to mind.

[ian richards]

John

Meaning what 

[Len Gribble]

Barry

A bit like any election, go with the flow.

“The common thread seems to be "what can be done to put our house in order."

Law, but that will never happen! Believe in the sates and Aus one has to be licensed to cut hair!

Matt

Nether have I, but I bet I can still install central heating as good as any plumber, the only problem rigging up the gas supply to the unit and airflow. Have a look at http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_about/corgi_council.asp

For info done a let last week Corgi bloke condemned fire not the plumbing.


Len

[Ian Gourlay]

Len,

What I meant was  that if a  post put cleaning in a bad light, was sexual, racist etc   or someone encouraging us to con the public.
However it gets very difficult because if we do not talk about bad practice bait and switch etc how are we to know what is happening in the Market Place
   

I have had a sleepless night wondering if I should have deleted topic as it could be used to pick on certain people which i do not think is good for any Forumn.  I do not think any of the present contributors our as bad as Jason somebody.

I actually think that Don has a lot to offer on The Marketing Side which is what a lot of cleaners struggle with.

Obviously his News of The World style of posting does not put Carpet Cleaning in a very good light

regards

Ian


Doug and Mike might have diffrent views

[Derek]

Matt

I apologise... the first section of my last post was for you highlighting some of my background experiences..
 
the remainder (Referring to contraversial comments) was a general comment aimed at trying to make people look beyond what may be perceived to be an attack on them personally.

Regards
Derek

[Karl Wildey]

Assocaitions.

If you look in the yellow pages under consumer information you will find 5 pages of assocaitions, plumbers as well.

[Matt Read]

The point i was trying to make is our trade is no different to any other..if i wasn't a cc i'd have to look up our association along with the rest. If i had a referal for any building work plumbing etc i'd use them same goes for cc, the associations in any trade don't seem very prominent.

i've never seen a cc on "house of horrors" yet but just about every other trade has been on there...perhaps we aren't so bad after all .

[strakercleaning]

Being Trade Association or Licensed does not mean everything...............  just look at most drivers :
Most had lessons from qualified instructors and all should have licenses to drive 

[therapist]

Don't know how long you've been around c/c Matt, but you must have come across a few bad jobs yourself.

I mentioned somewhere, the two guys who walked into a living room, each carrying a bucket full of water, which they threw over the carpet - in the manner you might throw water over a lawn, in an arc, - a large blue machine was then started and they proceeded to extract from the carpet.

Needless to say, it was several days before the carpet dried and unfortunately lost about an inch, or so all round.

The company responsible have been around for years and have Y/P advertising, plus leafleting teams.

This particular incident took place in Paisley and it was some two years before the lady plucked up the courage to allow another c/c into her home

Fortunately it was me, but it could just as easily have been another stetson wearer.

r m

[Matt Read]

about a decade therapist...and yes had the odd complaint about previous cc's but the incident you mentioned is an extreme case and they can only possibly get "new customers" each time with that setup !

I just don't think we're the only trade with these problems and altho associations help the customer, only a minority of the public use them.

In norfolk theres a guy setting up a website called "no more cowboys" the public are invited to join and give comments on tradesmen they have used...good and bad comments are invited ..not really got off the ground yet. be interesting to see if the tradesmen are allowed a reply but with the current trend for internet use, these types of sites will prob be more high profile than any trade association. Its been on our local news and in the local paper ..i'm sure the guy is doing it for financial gain but just goes to show that associations aren't heard of because they aren't able to advertise themselves...possibly because they get no return  (financially)  ?other than all of the income from members of course 

[Len Gribble]

Associations are good to a point but some if you are stuck off you cant continual in that field!

The problem we have is not the cowboys it the customer!

Derek

Never apologise sign of weakness think the Duke said that!  Say sorry should be enough!

Len

[darrenlee]

cant understand some of you on here

you take digs at sherlock, and some of is topics are good.
at least he dare speak his mind,
whats this forum for ?
some of you seem to think its for the ones that have been here longest, and built a friendship.
someone new comes along, god for bid him having a mind, a mouth, a finger to type with.
lets be relastic general carpet cleaning, is not brain science

the site needs new blood and people already here to encourage
others to speak freely, how many people are members?
how many people post or reply to posts?

i look and listen myself most of the time. cause you can read into it, its like a little click of people. talkin to each other, of an evening.

and every now again good topic.

nick van dont no rest i am sorry.
and microsppliters, no one dare say powders are best, nicks posts are blatant advertising. and i dare say it.
go on say it some of is posts are good, he always replys not post, and if he wanted to benifit is fellow cleaner.
why not post under other name?

you dont see owner pushing is products at you. and hes the nice guy that lets you chin wag of an evening.


new blood, and more of it,

many thanks darren

xxx

[Karl Wildey]

Darren,
I think what bothers people about Sherlock is that he makes wild statements and then when questioned about his post, he never replies. Let me give you an example I cleaned a carpet this morning and was paid £550, and it only took me 30 minutes. That is easily stated, then someone will ask me how I made 550 in 3o minutes, and I never reply. Now would you believe me that I made £550 this morning. No, but if I told you how, you would believe me, right.
Sherlock just needs to justify his posts and then more people will take him seriously.
Also cc is not brain science, but they is a loads you need to know which it would appear you don't, or you would have never made that statement.
How you ever been on a training course?
No you know your acids from alkalines?
The don't dos for a wool carpet?
etc etc.

I am not having a dig at you, just speaking my mind and wasting a little time between jobs. I'm off to clean a dralon chair for £2,000, should only take me 10 minutes.....

[eco freindly. peoples champion ron .sherlock]

i may not reply to some questions asked, i have never come out with anything in your example even remotley. i withold the right to answer a question which might well harm my business, if i thought that i would be giving a competitor knowledge that would take bread from my mouth. that i think is commonsense.and i repeat that at no time have i ever disclosed what i am earning, nor disclosed the nature my knowledge is gained . if others perhaps concentrated on what they were doing, and why, they might just learn that carpet cleaners and thats what we are, have no right to expect something for nothing. you pay for answers and that is why theres so many courses around they dont train and tell all for free , neither do i 

[darrenlee]

been on a few training coures over the years
was refering to basic cleaning , not restoration or stain removal.

[Matt Read]

This site is a big mix of different types of business people, its dominated mainly by one man bands/tradesman who prob like to offer a personal service to their customers whilst not looking for world domination,and use this as a place to sound off a bit, pick up advice and maybe just chew the fat with other's with  similar setups, amongst these are newbies who must find it invaluable to gain knowledge for free from older cc's. Then theres the fast track cleaners with staff who are looking mainly to make big money and are more interested in the marketing side of things and gimmicks to lure in more trade. I think this is where a lot of the conflict is arising, i'm one of the former but i'm sure if i had the ambition to have staff my main interest would be making money and offering a decent if not personal service and letting my staff deal with on the job stress. I think there is quite a gulf in the outlook of the two different types and we've all been guilty of not taking a step back sometimes and seeing it from the the others point of view.

[Karl Wildey]

Sherlock,
Was not having a pop, just trying to explain why I think some people don't trust you. The figures quoted were to show the point to extremes.
Thing is, If you start something on this site, it can easily look like you are bragging, and that when people will ask you questions, you don't reply, then they will assume you were bull@@@ting them. Beware what you state.
I think you have a lot to offer, but you seem to have approach the site like a bul in a china shop, and that has put some noses out.

Darrenlee,
Spotting is a science, restoration a different ball game, but hope you understand my point about Sherlock.

[gwrightson]

Sherlock, Yet again I see you contradicting yourself, in your post s you appear to be handing out hints and tips, all for the price of zilch, and yet in your latest post , you are defending your right not  to reply to unanswered questions, with your defense been along the lines of Do not want to help the competion.
So what is your standing? Do you wish to help others? or are you afraid of your competitors? as you have stated, surly not as you do seem to have a very full diary, and especially as your marketing and methods  are at the fore front, so it would appear.
 On a personal note , I actually enjoy reading your posts, but i do take the majority with a pinch of salt, i tend to take notice of the more established and knowledable c.c. and the ones i know i can gain knowledge from " Yes for free"
those c.c. who usually can back up their claims, those that are trusted and have a pedigree. No disrespect to any newbies, i dare say many are as knowledgable and helpful as the gods, but repect is gained over a period of time and helpfulness.
 Sherlock stick around, i,m sure all this will come in time
   Geoff

[ian richards]

Oh...he will stick around ok, but without giving you a decent reply

Ian

[ian richards]

re:   Driving Home

I see that human excrement is being delivered upon this site again

Ian

[ian richards]

Now its gone!!

Obviously one of the moderators got got out the shovel and poo bag

Well done

[Doug Holloway]

Ian,

I have deleted that whole topic as it was obviously rubbish.

Even with a paid moderator , they are not going to be on 24 hours.

We do rely on a certain level of maturity.

Cheers,

Doug

[ian richards]

Doug

Well done mate.

I know it's impossible to be on track with what's going on all the time.

I think when a newbie comes on and puts complete rubbish on here they should be automatically booted off.

Ian

[Gavin Reardon]

What has happened to this site??

[ianharper]

ian

instead of "booting off" someone how about education? we are professionals so lets so other the way. "Booting Off" helps no one.

how about asking them questions like why they feel or do somthing a certain way? my advise would be when dealing with a problem is to quote other sorces. for example if a newbe had a tech problem how about reconmending the ncca or some other group from their referance

Respect

[therapist]

The voice of reason Mr Harper

If one of your kids came out with similar comments how would you react ?

Initially. I'd ignore it and hope it wouldn't be repeated.    If it was I would simply state ( in a calm voice ) which, admittedly I'm blessed with, that, what they just said would be hilariously funny at school, but not in some adult company.

Usually this is greeted with laughter and no one is offended and no one falls out.

We have 4 kids from 12 - 19 and I, am more likely to embarass them, in company than they, are me.

As I'm only a guest on this forum, it's not for me to tell anyone how to behave, but try not to react too quickly, or judge someone by their appearance, or tone when you first meet.

R M

[Gavin Reardon]

Hello Mr Robert Melldrum

What you say is great

But you have done your fair share of stiring things up  :

Regards Gavin

[therapist]

Not deliberately Mr Reardon I have a way of stringing words together that sometimes requires reading between the lines, or understanding of dry humour, one of the differences between Scots and most of the other residents of this little country

I've never deliberately knocked any system or product, but have occasionally attempted to inject a little balance into a one sided debate, just my nature, probably originates from being, one of 7 kids myself.

Long may you continue to prosper

 r m

[eco freindly. peoples champion ron .sherlock]

therapist your replys always make sense to me. you are one of the few that are able to inject not only humerous, but also unconditional remarks without malice or intent. ron aka sherlock numero uno upholstery cleaner