richie

  • Posts: 1179
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2008, 03:32:56 pm »
Mike Boxall,

As already said........could this not have been handled in a better manner?  Members that have been banned or have deleted themselves in recent days had ALOT to offer on a forum like CIU.  Is there any possibility of bridges been repaired?  As we all know...the carpet cleaning industry is a very close community therefore people like Simon, Paul & david have much to offer other CCs especially newcomers who are genuine about doing well in the CC trade.  CT went downhill after the banning started.  As most on here know i was banned for what Nick described as "causing trouble",  the biggest issue was because i was letting other CCs know my thoughts regarding PC Pure Clean when it first came out.  Most of us in this great trade enjoy helping & offering info to other CCs.  I would hate to see CIU lose members like CT did. 

Richie.

Barry Livingstone

  • Posts: 646
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2008, 04:17:23 pm »
Carton care ...i no this i came back to thie forum on October 26, 2005.. what am saying we lost some good Vocal members...!!!
Carpet, Upholstery cleaning & hard floor cleaning.
                     Fife, perth and tayside.

RAM Cleaning

  • Posts: 76
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2008, 04:21:52 pm »
Carlton Care,

Of course all the companys have R & D departments etc etc , what i was saying is that major manufacturers like prochem will only train you to use prochem chemicals, which is fair do, but you may be happier to use a variety of brands, for whatever reason be it price or personal preference, so a little experimenting to make sure two different brands of products work together does no harm, as i said as long as you do it on your own furninshing rather than the custys.  Yes there are independent trainers out there that will also train using a variety of brands, but i was referring to specific companies like prochem and the alike.

Gerry.

Im not talking about training in the sense of going of to a 2 day training event, im talking more self training trying your own things out, its personal preference at the end of the day.  You can't tell me that you have been to an event and they have told you the best way to aggitate a prespray is with a sebo duo, and never thought "well i wonder if there is anything better"????, when you know there is, but you might try the best thing on the market for that job and you just don't like it, so you go back to a carpet brush, because it is your choice.

People have different opinions about different products, if they didn't there would be one company making one machine and one company making chemicals, wouldn't there................................????

The boot camp from what i could gather was more of a get together of fellow carpet cleaners sharing experiences and getting demonstrations from certain people, not an actual training event.  That is how i saw it, if im wrong well then im wrong.

garyj

Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2008, 05:02:49 pm »
RAM, from what I read into it the original training days were free ( apart from the fiver for the food  ;) :P ), the next step was far different, this is how I read it at the time ( but as you know, I am very often wrong  :-\ ).

The next Boot Camp was to be a 3 day event which was going to be chargeable, nothing wrong in that, but perhaps with a captive audience and a clique in place they went about it the wrong way.
Some of the methods used are disputed by experts, they might work but what are the long term effects? No one knows, so is it right that these methods should be used yet.
But the bit that sat heavy with me was that no price was forthcoming, BUT a price was put out by part of the team in a way that made it sound like he did not know and he was interested. It was along the lines of " if it is less than £300 count me in". Anyone with half a brain put two and two together and was thinking, this guy has just spent a weekend with one of them, he knows how much it is plus it was a bit more free advertising.
As carpet cleaners we spend a lot on advertising and are all looking for the Holey Grail, these chaps found it, right here. I find it impossible to believe that he did not know the price, was not involved  and to swerve around the moderators posted the figure as a third party. I do not know how much this event is, but at a guess £295, perhaps someone will enlighten me.
It has been written here a few times that a certain lady throws her dummies out the pram, for those of you that know about NLP and mirroring ( and you should, it helps with your marketing and quote getting ) then that is exactly what has happened here. What you do not like in other people is often a prominent part of you!!
There are a hundred instances on here advertising products, some of it blatant, some of it underhand, some of it genuine recommendations, but it is a very fine line between them. The moderators job is thankless and difficult, I would not want to do it in a million years, one of them was badly abused yesterday ( I did chuckle, and to my shame agree with some of it ;)) but the person doing it did it to wind up other members, he does not care he has been banned, he has his own forum.
Yep, some vocal members have gone and the board will be quieter for a bit but with some people out the way perhaps the quieter ones will start to have an in-put.

Craig, Yep, them were the days  ;D are we getting old  :-\,  it will. be a laugh again soon, don't forget there are other areas here that are always good for a wind-up  :P On the plus side now things are quieter perhaps we dont need so many mods and one might go  ;D

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 05:29:22 pm »
Hi Gary - I don't think we have spoken before.

I know Paul and Dave and Pete, I wouldn't call them close friends, but they have all offered me help and advice with my business at various times. There was nothing in it for them - the advice was freely offered and freely given. Whether I chose to implement it was up to me.

I have put my name down for the boot camp because I think I will learn a great deal in one weekend and have a good laugh with like-minded people.

I do think you are being a bit unfair when you suggested that Pete was using some kind of back door marketing by saying " providing it is less than £ 300 then I'm in" - Pete has just spent a great deal of money on a stand at a local county show and has just found out his wife is expecting again. I think he was genuinely suggesting how much he could afford.

For the record I still don't know how much the weekend will cost, but I presume as it is taking place over 3 days, then any costs involved will be for food and accomodation, however, I stand to be corrected on that.

Steve

carlton care

  • Posts: 429
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2008, 05:39:43 pm »
If that was the case, why would a charge in the region of £300 be raised ?

I know what you mean Gerry and years ago, training was virtually non existant, so, yes, you either tried something and liked it, or tried to find other products. I suspect I've sourced and tried many products you've never even heard of, but although I've experimented it's always been with caution.

There is and has been for some time many training opportunities in all aspects of cleaning, from many sources, mostly hands on mostly one manufacturer, but you can obtain samples from most suppliers and all you have to do is follow the instructions or post a question.

Answers will be in conflict though, as what one likes another does'nt.

Suites tend to need a bit more caution than carpets and leather needs a lot more caution than fabrics, but there is excellent training, which covers all aspects of cleaning and restoration.

If you want to go down any other route, that's up to you, but remember whose valuable property your dealing with and whether the products or methods you use would be acceptable to your insurance. Very important !

We could talk all day about the pros and the cons of what's safe, what works best, how much to charge and so on, but when the talking stops your personal reality will set in and you will do what you're comfortable with.

Doesn't mean there's an absolute right way or absolute wrong way, but there are guidelines to follow, for good reasons.



Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2008, 05:44:36 pm »
Probably because a 2 day training course with suppliers is around £200, therefore 3 days £300 - but in anycase no price has been set yet.

garyj

Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2008, 05:45:17 pm »
As I said Steve, I could be wrong, I hope I am. It does look staged though especially considering what has happened in the past with other products. I know that Pete did the Kent Show recently and from what I gather Dave was there too, so forgive me for thinking that Pete is more aware of the situation than he might be.
I am not against what they are doing, far from it, I am sure it will be a great day, if I was them I would do the same, but would have gone about it in a different manner.
I did not even know that anyone actually read my posts  :P ;D

garyj

Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2008, 05:48:05 pm »
Probably because a 2 day training course with suppliers is around £200, therefore 3 days £300 - but in anycase no price has been set yet.

I might have just done every one a huge favour, just to prove me wrong the price will drop dramatically.
So you all owe me a beer  ;D

Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2008, 05:52:33 pm »
I hope you're right Gary - i've just done 2 days at LTT, doing 2 days at NCCA next week plus all the travelling ( why are all these bloody courses up north ! ), so I could do with one being a bit cheaper.  ;D

Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2008, 06:03:03 pm »
Steve

I'm going on the Surrey one in September with the 25% discount.  ;)


Steve Barnett (Carpet Care Plus)

  • Posts: 1834
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2008, 06:10:34 pm »
Surrey one !! - what bloody Surrey one, no-one told me  :(

Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2008, 06:14:07 pm »
GOTCHA!

Sorry Steve couldn't resist.  ;D

mark_roberts

  • Posts: 1899
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2008, 07:30:50 pm »
A board is only as good as its longterm knowledgeable members.  Too many newbies and not enough substance.  Youve lost a few good members in one go.

These boards have a life span.  another forum and cleantalk esp the latter are only shadows of the early days.  Cleanitup is going that direction and very quickly too.

Retreat before its too late.

Mark


The Great One

  • Posts: 11861
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2008, 07:23:17 am »
Hi

Stayed out of this, not my bag.

But...

Why shouldn't the training be paid for?

Prochem, NCCA, flood school etc all charge for training, so why not anyone else? If it was free previously, then great but there is no free lunch. Their time is precious as is mine and anyone else's.

Trial & error...

We all learn by trial and error at the beginning. I took my prochem course and training with EnviroDri (which I use) but it was still trial & error at the start until I became more comfortable with the system.

Even Prochem learnt by trial & error in the beginning.

That's it, not going to get involved with any politics.

Regards

Martin 8)

P.S. oh, profit is not a dirty word ;)

carlton care

  • Posts: 429
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2008, 08:50:49 am »
Nothing wrong with covering expenses Martin, in fact everyone would expect that. But, this is not training by Trainers, who would have to meet all H&S, Risk, Insurance etc, requirements and be fully acredited, with premises to pay for, etc,etc.

Of course everything starts with trial and error, but the trial and error has already been done, in controlled conditions, so, it doesn't need to be done again!

The idea of the boot camp is ok and it was being targeted at novices, to get them up and running with confidence, following three days of immersion training, which again, is a good idea.

Many good ideas are just that, because at the chalk face they can falter or break down. Immersion training can be productive, but it's being practiced in trades in this country with only moderate results, as many a journeyman will confirm.

My only problem with the ideology is and always has been the idea that novices, even after completing a course or two, should be encouraged to charge top rates, when they have no real experience.

If you are of the Risk Taker /  Chancer mentality, you will love the attitude of these guys, who both like to be one of the " Lads " according to the little ditty at the bottom of their posts, ie,
" if youv'e got the balls go for it " or  " if your'e not living on the edge your'e taking up too much space "

That's fine for sport.................been their got the tee shirts, or sales / marketing / management.............again got a drawerful of tee shirts.

I'd already mentioned to Paul, that Training is big business and worth looking into. Part of our business is training, but to become a ligitimate trainer and take money from people you have to complete a number of Train the Trainer courses and take refresher courses each year.



Neil Grainger

  • Posts: 1273
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2008, 10:25:56 am »
Why, this course is for CC by CC, its a this is how we do it, This is real world traing not how the exam tells you to do it. If you follow the rules of CC to the letter you want get very far amd learn what really goes on.

Risk assesment, what checks do the NCCA take against CC's that pass an exam and join but could not clean a carpet to save their lives. They are not interested as the process would not be so easy to become a member otherwise, The NCCA make the public believe that they are Pro's once they have passed this exam, this is rubbish

Their are loads of NCCA members that are rubbish at cleaning carpets. Still companies are flouting the one to one rule, and the NCCA do nothing and they are still held as the bench mark.

spencer davies

  • Posts: 651
Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2008, 11:23:56 am »
Neil,

I see you like the word 'rubbish' but if you and I were going to quote for a job, I suspect my NCCA membership and other qualifications and memberships would probably see me get the job, telling someone that you know how to clean a carpet holds no weight.

 Who are all of these 'rubbish' NCCA carpet cleaners?


S

Joe H

Re: 'Banned Members'
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2008, 11:49:52 am »
The NCCA is a non-profit making organisation.
You say Neil, that the 1 to 1 rule is being flouted and the NCCA does nothing.
To a great extent it has to rely on members to report those flouting the rules, other then that it would require "staff" to do the policing and that costs money ie increase in fees.

The NCCA may not be doing all that could be done, and what it does do many could say could be done better, but something is usually better then nothing.

Of course if more people joined more funds would be available, and as it is non-profit making then one assumes the funds would be spent, hopefully wisely.
To make sure funds are spent wisely members are encouraged to be active, giving of their own time to ensure the idelas are being reached for. (and I am guilty of not being active, but there again I only joined in Feb/Mar so who knows what I may do in the future).

We can all sit back and moan, thats the easy part.

I joined NCCA, I have already got my first years fee back (and more) either from jobs direct from their website, or promoting it to potential clients.

One big benefit of me joining - you not only have to produce evidence of public liability insurance but also treatment risk.
I had the PL, but assumed that covered the treatment risk ie if all went pearshape on the carpet I was cleaning.
It wasnt included. I contacted my broker, who contacted the insurer, who said they dont do treatment risk.
My broker found a company thatwould and my insurance premium fell about £400 (I emply people so I need Employer Liability o initial premium was almost £1500).

So now I have piece of mind ie Treatment Risk, and saved a few hundred pound as well.

Therefore the money I have saved by joining NCCA will pay for my membership for the next 2 years.