[rb4no]

Ignoring the obvious price difference between our setups and these machines how do you view these scrubber machines in terms of the clean results compared to pw's. i guess you could down size I know you can get the push along variety .

advantages= less water, less area to cordon off, less noise, lower overheads (if push along machine) any more??.

disadvantages= may need a variety sized machines to tackle steps etc, will it clean as well pw's, can't do vertical surfaces, what about undulated surfaces??

maybe only good for extended flat areas only, any ideas and thoughts ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lYEW5Mbsao

here's an interesting link on that ORBOT machine cleaning concrete

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZTopjbbxS0

[Kev Martin]

I am going to repeat what I have said on here and many other forums and courses before!

Mechanical cleaning will always beat pressure washer cleaning regardless of whether you use a Rotary Surface Cleaner with or without extraction.  You will never beat a good quality Rotary Machine fitted with the correct brush for the surface and a decent wet vacuum.  You mention undulating surfaces well if you use the correct brush this doesn't matter either!

The U Tube videos you have referred to are not that impressive.  If the guy with the hako machine had prewet the floor and applied a diluted high alkaline cleaner even for 5 minutes before he scrubbed and vacced off with the Hako the results would have been at least 50% better.

The concrete machine was the same I could have and have done better with a Mono Rotary and a Wet Vac without all those leads and tubes running everywhere!

So essentially here is my challenge again:

If anyone wants to meet me with their SX 12 (or whatever) and the most powerful hottest pressure washer in the World at a dirty jobsite I will turn up with a standard Klindex Rocky Rotary, a decent Wet Vac and some Aqua Mix HDT&G Cleaner and then see who gets the floor the cleanest?

P.S.  Just to be honest and in the interests of being totally fair I have tried this personally. The equipment I used was a Falch T3 Pressure Washer (300 Bar) with water heated to 90 Degrees fitted with a Mosmatic Skater with Vacuum Take Off.  I tried it with about 6 different pressure and heat settings.  The Wirbel 150rpm Rotary (What we used before Klindex Rocky) fitted with a soft to medium brush and a Wet Vac beat it hands down.  The results were at least 30% better!

The only caveat is:   That I did see a shopping centre done with a Rotary Surface Cleaner but he had pre wet the surface and applied a high alkaline 30 minutes before he used the Rotary with a vac take off and the results were much better than he would have got without the Alkaline Dwelling first!!!  But I still think a good scrub would have made it better

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Phil @ Extreme Clean]

what kind of floors are you referring too inside or outside ? driveways etc ?

[Roger Oakley]

Kevin

You might want to put that challenge on the general cleaning section as most pressure washers don't come on this side since the break-up of the internal-external part of this forum.

All I will say is you don't need masses of psi or heat to clean external surfaces just the right chemical's and technic which is how we do things. I admit I have never used a floor scrubber that you guys use, but have never needed one to date.
But I would be interested to know or see how your ways deal with block paving.

[rb4no]

My angle on this is that my local water company is making me apply for "consent to discharge" used waste water in to the sewers, in practice this means that when I pressure wash anything i have to lift and take back to base my water and debris. This simply isn't practical and economical so my options are gear up and invest in heavy trucks, relocate business premises etc = no way! gear up with some sort of water filtration therefore i recycle water onsite = expensive technology although still looking, or look for alternatives such as these, if only for some of the work.....

The work I'm referring to would be outside work, so anything from brick weave driveways and patios  to carparks. I spoke to a number of firms that sell those petrol driven yard brush' like the Kersten' fitted with the wire weed brushes. They all claim to get in between the groves on the brick weave to dislodge accumulated moss and other detritus. My thoughts so far on this would be that this machine would get all of the big debris dislodged then you'd dispose of this, then pass over the same area again with one of these scrubbers and then vac off.

Can you guys see something like this working outdoors, potentially whilst it's raining etc? I'd be inclined to see a demo of this in practice?

[Great Outdoors]

My angle on this is that my local water company is making me apply for "consent to discharge" used waste water in to the sewers, in practice this means that when I pressure wash anything i have to lift and take back to base my water and debris. This simply isn't practical and economical so my options are gear up and invest in heavy trucks, relocate business premises etc = no way! gear up with some sort of water filtration therefore i recycle water onsite = expensive technology although still looking, or look for alternatives such as these, if only for some of the work.....

The work I'm referring to would be outside work, so anything from brick weave driveways and patios  to carparks. I spoke to a number of firms that sell those petrol driven yard brush' like the Kersten' fitted with the wire weed brushes. They all claim to get in between the groves on the brick weave to dislodge accumulated moss and other detritus. My thoughts so far on this would be that this machine would get all of the big debris dislodged then you'd dispose of this, then pass over the same area again with one of these scrubbers and then vac off.

Can you guys see something like this working outdoors, potentially whilst it's raining etc? I'd be inclined to see a demo of this in practice?

What ever you do please be carefull with Kersten it could be expensive! I assume they mentioned the 'Vela', as it can use wire / nylon brushes, from memory costs around £3500 - 4000. We had one ask Chris at Kersten about it !

You wont here this very ofter but an over engineered piece of German ~~~~.

Not sure how much you know about these ... the impellar is mounted over 12" from the engine, hence the crankshaft is supported by numerous bearings. This is the area where they have located the drive  for the hydraulics and main belt for self propel.

We had numerous occasions when the belt snapped ... No reason no drive machine unusable back to Kersten(2 weeks no m/c), as you need to remove impellar to gain access - far from simple task! Due to using it in the rain bearings started to sieze especially the one right next to the engine block! Kersten advised us not to use it in the rain  Again back to Kersten (2 weeks no m/c). Kerstens answer was to remove the problem bearing  and not replace it I questioned this but was assured it would be ok .. well you can quess what happened 4 wks later, belt broke again... back to kersten. This time they discovered the crankshaft had bent ! I was without a m/c for 8 weeks! In the end they bought the m/c of me!
The machine in question was in great condition only used once a fortnight, when it worked it was fantastic... sorry for the long post but would hate to hear of someone else having to go thro this. Lots of other issues include how they put the dust bag inside the main bag  etc etc More than happy for you to discuss this with Kersten - Chris

If I was in your situation I would push the reclaim issue ask for a formal meeting with water authority to discuss concerns. Direct them to this site so that they can view other posts ref water usage 

[Phil @ Extreme Clean]

Hi Kevin, i would also like to know how you would cope in outdoors when raining basically your limited to good weather also how often would you need to empty vac and most importantly were?

[rb4no]

Thanks for the heads up on the Kersten, I mentioned them cos there all over youtube I guess but there are a number of other manufacturers who make similar machines, like the Mosquito and others. My point is would such a machine (if it were reliable) do the job they purport it to do and how would it work in the rain? Then I'd guess you'd need to go over again with a scrubber and fluids? please advise... Richard

[Kev Martin]

Hi Kevin, i would also like to know how you would cope in outdoors when raining basically your limited to good weather also how often would you need to empty vac and most importantly were?

We cope in the rain the same as anyone else.  We are obviously subjected to operating electrical machines outside and therefore the normal precautions have to be taken regarding electric sockets and extensions. 

However, I also think that I am starting to be misunderstood!
Let me clarify in that I am not saying I would attempt to do 1000's M2 outdoors with a rotary scrubber and a wet vac, I am talking about smaller areas up to around 200M2.  It is clear that something like a ride on or ride in scrubber drier like the Hako would be advantageous in huge areas but I stick by the method I have mentioned of prewetting all areas and applying the correct chemicals with the correct dwell time will give much better results (See Roger Oakleys Post he agrees).  The emptying of a wet vac down the normal drainage system is perfectly OK for normal dirt with any chemicals neutralised prior to the dump.  The wet vac needs to be emptied once full and this clearly depends on the amount of cleaning involved.  But using a normal scrubber with an 18 Litre Tank of solution means you can normally reckon on emptying a 90 Litre Wet vac after around 8 tankfuls per Rotary Scrubber this is of course only based on 1 of each where we tend to at least use two of each on larger jobs.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Phil @ Extreme Clean]

What about block paving and weeds etc  i just can't see how a rotary would work i don't doubt that you could get a better result but i do doubt it would be as easy and simple as using a pressure washer. I am thinking of going into pressure washing as i helped a friend do it last year and it was good and i would want the best way.

maybe you should make a video Kev of all the outdoor areas you do this way and i reckon if the video showed that rotary and chemical is a good way of doing without alot of waste water you'd have orders coming out of your a**e.

Cheers Phil.

[Kev Martin]

What about block paving and weeds etc  i just can't see how a rotary would work i don't doubt that you could get a better result but i do doubt it would be as easy and simple as using a pressure washer. I am thinking of going into pressure washing as i helped a friend do it last year and it was good and i would want the best way.

maybe you should make a video Kev of all the outdoor areas you do this way and i reckon if the video showed that rotary and chemical is a good way of doing without alot of waste water you'd have orders coming out of your a**e.

Cheers Phil.

Phil

I agree with you on weeds but it takes a few minutes to go around and pull the bigger ones and bag them and it makes a lot less mess.  In addition there is virtually noclean up with a Rotary & Vacuum and furthermore resanding is a lot quicker and easier because a Rotary pulls nowhere near the sand out of block paving that a PW does.

Finally not being funny mate but I already have orders coming out of my a**e

We are selling the Rocky & 90 Litre Wet Vacs quicker than we can get them.  There are now at least 50 CIU Members with a Rocky and god knows how many have the Wet Vacs.

It would be nice if a few owners came on here and gave an unbiased view instead of me telling folk how good they are!!!

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Great Outdoors]

Hi kevin I dont wish to argue plus / minus of each system as it has been discussed numerous times in the past.
 I do question the disposal of the waste however, as it has relevance to our / my current aims recycling plus it has been raised as an issue in previous posts by rb4no. Sure your aware but not sure of others reading these posts are:- the slurry / dirty water neutralised (How do you neutralise ?) or not should only be emptied down sewage drains (this is also questionable without permision) and obviously not storm drains. I personally feel this issue - will gain significance as 'water boards' seek to tighten legislation. I do appreciate the volumes you mention are tiny, but still.

It would be nice to hear from other guys, which use your system especially in regards to cleaning block paving.

[Roger Oakley]

Some interesting answers, So Kevin, with block paving, you would use a wet vac to collect the weeds, moss, etc yes? and then empty down a drain. One of the first rules of pressure washing as far as I'm concerned is none of that sh*t goes down a drain, not good for the client if it blocks it up and don't look very professional. Re the sand issue, even with pressure washing with a turbo lance I'll use no more then 1/2 a kilo per square metre, that is joins filled to just under the shanfer level so as ready to be sealed if that is what is going to be done. The idea for me is getting looking as close to when the paving was laid. As I said it is all about technic, right chemicals (which all are washes/cleans are) and experience.
Interesting thread non the less.

[rb4no]

The use of brushes compared to PW'ing doesn't dictate whether you flush the waste down the drains or not, my original question is how effective is scrubbing compared to PW'ing.

The disposal of water / slurry is still an issue however, this is would be much easier to handle given the fractional volumne of fluids employed this way compared to PW'ing. The filtration technology needed to handle one over the other I guess would be very different and therefore cost. PW'ing is effective but very messy and poses other H&S issues when done in public, scrubbing machines looks so much more friendly. However, how would you clean vertical surfaces???

[Jamie Pearson]

Roger, Kevin does say bag the weeds on his post.

[Kev Martin]

Whilst I am happy to post again on this topic it is beginnng to get a little out of hand and is starting to digress.  The whole post was regarding PW v Rotary Scrubber and Wet Vac.  Please try to realise what I post is my opinion based on experience!  We are now getting asked how we cope with vertical surfaces and waste disposal.  Firstly I have a lot of experience with both systems and ultimately when doing outside work I have literally abandoned PW for our method. For inside work I have never agreed with it and always done this work with a rotary and a Vac.  It makes a lot less mess and IMHO it produces better results.  I am not saying PW is a waste of time and in a lot of cases it is easier to PW when the circumstances are suited.  With regard to waste disposal we have very little problem we bag all weeds and moss and any larger debris.  Our vacs can be fitted with filtration nets to filter any of smaller debris.  The only thing we are left with is dirty water and some chemical which was diluted before use and once sent through a vac with rinse water is diluted at least another 15:1 so the end result is dirty water that is probably less harmful that the Coca Cola a lot of you probably subject your stomachs to on a regular basis.  Finally we come to the vertical surfaces well although this has been thrown in as a fastball we have two options in that firstly I still have two PW's and I also have hand held mosmatic rotary surface cleaners with vacuum take offs.  In addition we also have vertical wall scrubbers with vacuum take offs.  So we can handle vertical surfaces as well but the original post didn't broach this subject.   In addition I do avoid this type of work unless it is attached to our main work of floor restoration.
Ultimately you all need to consider the following!  It is easy for me to dictate to you and a customer the correct way to do a job but usually the correct or best method is the most expensive.  Usually jobs are related to a budget so whichever method is best for results doesn't come into it.  If PW is £599 and my method is £1299 9/10 the customer will select the cheaper method regardless!  There are a lot of guys out there making a good living from PW. It's been around a fair while and judging by the Cleaning Show in Amsterdam last year and the amount of PW systems available it's here to stay.

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

[Roger Oakley]

Roger, Kevin does say bag the weeds on his post.

Yes he does, but what about the sand, moss and other detris that is really part and parcel of cleaning a block paved area when cleaning.?

I can see this thread just going round & round in circles, as we will all have different views on how we should and do clean.

[Roger Oakley]

Kevin
Your last post went in just before my last post, and take this hoe you will but I find your last sentence patronising, it is not all about cost, it is about experience and can you do the job.
Anyone can say " I can pressure wash" I see enough of this day in day and on this forum with the add-on merchants starting up., I have a Travertine patio to clean in the next couple of weeks,(we do lot's of natural stone just don't need to boast about it)  I'll post photos, before and after and please tell me you could have got it cleaner with you methods as opposed to mine.

[Kev Martin]

Kevin
Your last post went in just before my last post, and take this hoe you will but I find your last sentence patronising, it is not all about cost, it is about experience and can you do the job.
Anyone can say " I can pressure wash" I see enough of this day in day and on this forum with the add-on merchants starting up., I have a Travertine patio to clean in the next couple of weeks,(we do lot's of natural stone just don't need to boast about it)  I'll post photos, before and after and please tell me you could have got it cleaner with you methods as opposed to mine.

Roger

You need to read my post again!  It is not remotely patronising, if anything it defends you guys who I admire.  I have a lot of experience in PW probably not as much as you or many on here and having tried it as an add on I decided to virtually abandon it I am certainly not boasting.  Finally it is not a competition to get the cleanest floor it is an opinion on what works best take it anyway you want but thats all it is an opinion.  I would never ever offer or pass comment on anyones work from photos either.  After all you may be a good floor cleaner and a crap photographer :

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd

[Great Outdoors]

 If PW is £599 and my method is £1299 9/10 the customer will select the cheaper method regardless! 
Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics

Roger I disagree with the cost element, if PROFESSIONAL pressure washing (Achieving the same results as scrubbing) is 1/2 the price...  as Kevin has shown above - end of case 

[Phil @ Extreme Clean]

Hi Kevin sent you an email mate

cheers Phil.

[Kev Martin]

I replied

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics
Marblelife Ltd