[Lee Burbidge]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

[Lee Burbidge]

.... of course it can depend on the work. Some windys think all the trailing hose and climbing up and over fences and garages means the only way is ladders.

[james51174]

couldnt work without either tbh

[dave f]

i think  i feel another wfp v trad comming on lol

[Dave66]

not really much comp really 

[Tom White]

Ladders are just sooooooooo slow. 

[Dave66]

fact

[Lee Burbidge]

I spoke to a few windys the other day who said that he didn't use wfp because he was too old to change, to much equipment to carry to work, over complicating an easy job, health and safety issues wth trailing hoses, hoses snagging, not managing to do rows of rear terrace houses, not easy to use if you have to climb over gates fences or garages.
How fast is wfp really? You gotta keep filling up your trolley from your 25L containers from your car, setting up and moving hose can take up time. Plus you can't get to do the back of number 58 because it takes to much work to either send your hoses over or drag your trolley full of water over. Wfp does have so snags.

[Johnny B]

This is why I am trad. I like to keeps things simple. Trad is less complicated, and overheads are minimal, therefore I don't need to charge about like a headless chicken trying to earn a fortune before covering the costs of buying and running a WFP set up.

I'm not knocking WFP. If it works for you, that's great. I just know it's not for me.

Best wishes to all, trad and WFP alike.

John           

[Wc Solutions]

This is why I am trad. I like to keeps things simple. Trad is less complicated, and overheads are minimal, therefore I don't need to charge about like a headless chicken trying to earn a fortune before covering the costs of buying and running a WFP set up.

I'm not knocking WFP. If it works for you, that's great. I just know it's not for me.

Best wishes to all, trad and WFP alike.

John           

fair play mate, your choice.

end of the day both just different tools to do the job with the same end result.

[Lee Burbidge]

I totally agree. Wfp ladders static poles A frames are in your tool box to use.

[Wc Solutions]

I totally agree. Wfp ladders static poles A frames are in your tool box to use.

i still find a good pair of 3 tred step come in handy at times.

we are mainly wfp but i must admit i do like doing a bit of trad at times - mainly summer

[StockClean]

I spoke to a few windys the other day who said that he didn't use wfp because he was too old to change, to much equipment to carry to work, over complicating an easy job, health and safety issues wth trailing hoses, hoses snagging, not managing to do rows of rear terrace houses, not easy to use if you have to climb over gates fences or garages.
How fast is wfp really? You gotta keep filling up your trolley from your 25L containers from your car, setting up and moving hose can take up time. Plus you can't get to do the back of number 58 because it takes to much work to either send your hoses over or drag your trolley full of water over. Wfp does have so snags.

Well WFP would have snags if you are struggling with jerry cans from a car, filling up a trolly.

The answer is Get a Van with a large tank, microbore hose, and 100 meter reel, let your customers know when you are comming, and trust me you wont look back.

I cleared 490 quid yesterday and finished by 4 pm. With the right setup mate you wont look back, after all your in it to make money yeah? What u doin messin about with jerry cans in the back of a car ? , no wonder you cant make it work.

[gary999]

I spoke to a few windys the other day who said that he didn't use wfp because he was too old to change, to much equipment to carry to work, over complicating an easy job, health and safety issues wth trailing hoses, hoses snagging, not managing to do rows of rear terrace houses, not easy to use if you have to climb over gates fences or garages.
How fast is wfp really? You gotta keep filling up your trolley from your 25L containers from your car, setting up and moving hose can take up time. Plus you can't get to do the back of number 58 because it takes to much work to either send your hoses over or drag your trolley full of water over. Wfp does have so snags.

Well WFP would have snags if you are struggling with jerry cans from a car, filling up a trolly.

The answer is Get a Van with a large tank, microbore hose, and 100 meter reel, let your customers know when you are comming, and trust me you wont look back.

I cleared 490 quid yesterday and finished by 4 pm. With the right setup mate you wont look back, after all your in it to make money yeah? What u doin messin about with jerry cans in the back of a car ? , no wonder you cant make it work.

hey i use 25 ltr barrrels and a back pack and it works for me
thank you very much!

got to be honest my body appreciates the exercise i get
from it, not for everyone though

[Lee Burbidge]

 ;DHi stockclean thanks for advise. I've got vans buddy.

[StockClean]

Mind u though wfp has probbably made me fatter  :

[PureClean Window Cleaning Ltd]

i just do terraced fronts for £5-£15,  problem solved!

[dazmond]

i always use my ladders a few times a week.

my 8ft single pointer for unbolting the odd gate and a couple of bungalows i clean trad.

my 3.5m 2 section trade ladders for flat roof up and overs and splitting them occasionally for getting over a locked gate without having to stand on the gate.

i also use these ladders for a couple of trad jobs that are quicker than using the pole.

need them for some conny roof cleans esp if they are big and one side is up against a fence.

also i will do the odd favour for my elderly customers.for example getting a tennis ball out of a gutter or clipping a gutter back in place.

i must admit i hate getting them off the rack at times.wfp has made me a bit lazy!! ;Dbut id never be without them!!

[wpclean]

I use wfp now and it has increased the business threefold, but I still love to get the ladders up and squeegee the glass and know 100% the windows are perfect !

[james51174]

some jobs just dont come up nice with wfp

some just dont suit wfp

but the ones that do are blinkin great!!!

[dave f]

told you

[Nathanael Jones]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

[Lee Burbidge]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

Ohhhh I think I might stir the hornets nest then in the next issue of WCM, cus we doing a ladders special and I have interviewed a view 100% ladder boys

 

[Lee Burbidge]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

Hey Nath, when you say unlawful what do you mean?. Cost may be an issue to some windys to DIY or of the shelf. It costs more than going up the ladder and can be more hassle on the occassions. You can still be insured for using ladders, and ladders are still for sale.
So until a day that ladders are banned, how is one windys choice an unlawful one. At what point does he come before a court of law to defend himself for his crime? 

[H S and Son]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

[Lee Burbidge]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

Now that James has used wfp he cant live without either - I get that.
Matt how many ladder guys from the old days on here (in your best estimate/percentage) have just stuck with ladders ?

[H S and Son]

There cant be many Lee, Stan likes to talk about the fact he is still on ladders, Id say less than 5%, on here that is. In reality, thoughout the country probably quite a lot higher than that.

[idealrob]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

Very well put & explained, sadly some dont think its a law, and thats a shame for everyone

idealrob

[Nathanael Jones]

Hey Nath, when you say unlawful what do you mean?.

European health & safety law was changed about 6 or 7 years ago and became law in member states soon after (2005 in the UK, 2006 in Ireland if memory serves). The paragraph below is an excerpt from the Irish text, but the UK law is derived from the same European legislation so is probably near word for word identical. The first line says it all really:

(a) ensure that work is not carried out at height where it is reasonably practicable to carry out the work safely and without risk to health otherwise than at height,
(b) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (a), ensure that work is not carried
out at height unless it is reasonably practicable to do so safely and without risk to
health,
(c) where, having regard to paragraphs (a) and (b), it is necessary to carry out work at
height, take suitable and sufficient measures to prevent an employee falling a
distance liable to cause personal injury, including—
(i) ensuring that the work is carried out—
(I) from an existing place of work, or
(II) in the case of obtaining access or egress, by using an existing means of
access or egress,
in compliance with this Part, where it is practicable to do so safely and under
appropriate ergonomic conditions, and
(ii) where it is not practicable for the work to be carried out in accordance with
subparagraph (i), ensuring that suitable and sufficient work equipment, in
compliance with Regulation 100, is provided to prevent a fall occurring,
(d) where the measures taken under paragraph (c) do not eliminate the risk of a fall
occurring—
(i) provide sufficient work equipment, in compliance with Regulation 100, to
minimise the distance of a potential fall and the risk of personal injury, and
(ii) without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (c), provide such additional
training and instruction or take other additional suitable and sufficient
measures to prevent, so far as is practicable, any employee falling a distance
liable to cause personal injury.

Cost may be an issue to some windys to DIY or of the shelf. It costs more than going up the ladder and can be more hassle on the occassions. You can still be insured for using ladders, and ladders are still for sale.

Cost is indeed a factor that would be considered by H&S officers,.. but if you've been in the window cleaning business for more than a year or 2, can you really say that £350 or so for a very basic backpack setup is beyond your means?

There are many jobs where ladders are the only practicable alternative, painting, fitting sky dishes etc etc, so insurance for ladder work & ladder sales themselves should never be considered justification for every work at height task,.. only those where there is no practicable alternative.

So until a day that ladders are banned, how is one windys choice an unlawful one. At what point does he come before a court of law to defend himself for his crime? 

Unfortunately, every court case I've heard of to date has been directly related to an accident. H&S are tightening up, but I doubt we'll see pre-emptive prosecutions for improper ladder use for a while yet.

I would imagine that insurance companies will be quicker to react than any health & safety authority. Every insurance policy I've ever seen has in the small print that the policy does not provide any cover if you are engaging in unlawful activities,... how long will it be before we see a post on here from someone who's fallen off a ladder, broken a bone & has to take 8 weeks off work, but his personal injury or income protection insurance is refusing to pay out on this technicality?

[james51174]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

Now that James has used wfp he cant live without either - I get that.
Matt how many ladder guys from the old days on here (in your best estimate/percentage) have just stuck with ladders ?

yep....been using ladders for 25 years,,,,wfp for two years.....but my dad STILL wont use wfp...even though he see's the benefits of it....he just leaves it to me

[james51174]

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

all this is correct....but apart from the law bit...its not law...merely a guideline

BUT

if it went to court....with insurance companies involved....one would have to show clear cut measures taken in order to justify ladder use

[james51174]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

lol....not sure if your joking or not....but ive been using ladders since 1986

[Nathanael Jones]

Actually its not a guideline, it is law.

Here is a link to the Irish legislation:
http://www.avondhucleaning.com/Work%20at%20height%20regs%202007%20Ireland.pdf

Ladders and WFP are equally tools of the trade & it would be impractical to choose just one of them,.. BUT...

The law (don't shoot the messenger) is clear. Work at height from ladders should be a last resort, only to be used when there is no other practicable alternative, and after a proper risk assessment has been carried out.

There are very few shiners who are full time trad that can honestly say they are working within the law. The obvious exception being island workers or on expesed coastlines where salt deposits on glass may render WFP ineffective. But WFP can be used for the back of terraces (Trolley or backpack) and in many other awkward situations with a bit of thought,.. and even if ladders would be faster, this fact alone would not make it lawful to use them.

all this is correct....but apart from the law bit...its not law...merely a guideline

BUT

if it went to court....with insurance companies involved....one would have to show clear cut measures taken in order to justify ladder use

[james51174]

ok...in ireland then

but im still posotive its not in england

i only know this as i just completed my ladder association training course

but what ever way one looks at it...it isnt law to leave ladders as a last resort

i wish it were though

[Lee Burbidge]

Law and no law. 100% trads will use ladders and no one can actually stop them. It's a choice. The law only becomes really important when you start employing staff.

No one is going to arrest 100% trads and HSE are only interested in people injured by ladders when it goes to court. You not going to take yourself to court are you?
I wfp. But some of my mates trad on ladders, that's cool too. They belive as long as the use them right.

[stuart mc]

ahem Nat the following paragraph is from the HSE doc on WAHR 2005

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the
guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you
do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the
law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and
may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.

so it is indeed a guide

from this document http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf

[H S and Son]

couldnt work without either tbh

Theres plenty on here that used to work before WFP was developed. You're lucky you wern't around in those days then with just ladders  

Actually I was being serious mate, but I now see I mis-read your post. My mistake 

lol....not sure if your joking or not....but ive been using ladders since 1986

[james51174]

no worries dude....your point is still very valid....and i completely agree

my life would have been easier with wfp by a country mile!!

[idealrob]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2005 No. 735

HEALTH AND SAFETY

The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Made16th March 2005
Laid before Parliament16th March 2005
Coming into force6th April 2005
The Secretary of State, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a), (5)(b), (6)(a) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (2) and (3), 9, 11, 14, 15(1) and 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (“the 1974 Act”) and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:

(1)1974 c. 37. Sections 15 and 50 were amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975 (c. 71) Schedule 15, paragraphs 6 and 16 respectively. The general purposes of Part I of the 1974 Act were extended by section 1(1) of the Offshore Safety Act 1992 (c. 15). Section 51A was inserted by section 1, and sections 52 and 53 were amended by sections 2 and 6 respectively, of the Police (Health and Safety) Act 1997 (c. 42)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

its law passed in parliament and as said above its legislation, and as for self employed one man bands not having to follow it, your having a laugh, just goes to show how some make a living and others run a prifitable business.
if you dont believe and have nothing to loose, send an email to HSE, and put the reply on here, not oponions, i wrote after seeing another window cleaner friend who though he was excempt because he was a lone worker, he saw the email HSE sent me,

idealrob

[stuart mc]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2005 No. 735

HEALTH AND SAFETY

The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Made16th March 2005
Laid before Parliament16th March 2005
Coming into force6th April 2005
The Secretary of State, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a), (5)(b), (6)(a) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (2) and (3), 9, 11, 14, 15(1) and 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (“the 1974 Act”) and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:

(1)1974 c. 37. Sections 15 and 50 were amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975 (c. 71) Schedule 15, paragraphs 6 and 16 respectively. The general purposes of Part I of the 1974 Act were extended by section 1(1) of the Offshore Safety Act 1992 (c. 15). Section 51A was inserted by section 1, and sections 52 and 53 were amended by sections 2 and 6 respectively, of the Police (Health and Safety) Act 1997 (c. 42)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

its law passed in parliament and as said above its legislation, and as for self employed one man bands not having to follow it, your having a laugh, just goes to show how some make a living and others run a prifitable business.
if you dont believe and have nothing to loose, send an email to HSE, and put the reply on here, not oponions, i wrote after seeing another window cleaner friend who though he was excempt because he was a lone worker, he saw the email HSE sent me,

idealrob

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

[Nathanael Jones]

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

Because there are still occasional situations where ladder use is the only practicable solution, and when this does happen you'd best be prepared for it!   :

[stuart mc]

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

Because there are still occasional situations where ladder use is the only practicable solution, and when this does happen you'd best be prepared for it!   :

exactly Nat, and I was prepared by sending the lad on relevant courses, but why are the council not putting up scaffold up to varnish windows, and not securing ladders when they don't?

I think it is because, it is not cost effective but according to everyone that should not come into it.

I don't disagree with you but the whole topic is just a nightmare to make any sense

[GB Window Cleaning]

ladders still have there place, like over an extension roof where wfp cannor get too

[Lee Burbidge]

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

Because there are still occasional situations where ladder use is the only practicable solution, and when this does happen you'd best be prepared for it!   :

exactly Nat, and I was prepared by sending the lad on relevant courses, but why are the council not putting up scaffold up to varnish windows, and not securing ladders when they don't?

I think it is because, it is not cost effective but according to everyone that should not come into it.

I don't disagree with you but the whole topic is just a nightmare to make any sense

I think I have made the point by starting this topic. Read the truth about ladders in my ladder special of the Window Cleaning Magazine WCM - myths blown out the water.  

www.windowcleaningmagazine.co.uk its free!!

[james51174]

cant find it in the magazine lee?

[Lee Burbidge]

cant find it in the magazine lee?

oops sorry James - its in the new issue Jan 12.

[james51174]

thanks lee, i look forward to it

as i understood it, alot of the reasons for ladders being used as a last resort are ...

because of the work involved requires the user to be working at height for a prolonged period of time

during the ladder association course i attended, cleaning a window is well within the recomended time limmit required, provided the ladder is being used correctly

the trainer confirmed to us all that although the guide is to use ladders as a last resort, its not a legal requirement

and i must repost the HSE paragraph mentioned elsewhere in this thread....

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.  

[Lee Burbidge]

Crooks of the matter is - you are allowed to use ladders for cleaning domestic 1st floor properties, its not illegal and you dont have to buy wfp systems.

If you employ people then from a self protection point of view you will have a legal obligation to seek the safest way of cleaning windows to protect your staff from injury and death and to protect your business from a HSE prosecution.

Simples.

[james51174]

thats what i thought...thanks for clarification lee

all our guys are sub contracted and therefore self employed....no problems there then

as im trained and qualified to inspect ladders and step ladders, all our ladders are perfectly fine for them to use...so again no problem

plus...i always use the wfp where possible anyhow....as long as its suited to the job (we all know if being honest...it doesnt suit all jobs/and in a few cases,  traditional does a better job)

[Lee Burbidge]

thats what i thought...thanks for clarification lee

all our guys are sub contracted and therefore self employed....no problems there then

as im trained and qualified to inspect ladders and step ladders, all our ladders are perfectly fine for them to use...so again no problem

plus...i always use the wfp where possible anyhow....as long as its suited to the job (we all know if being honest...it doesnt suit all jobs/and in a few cases,  traditional does a better job)

Hi James, you may have a duty to your sub contractors. You may have to insist that they find the safest way to clean windows. If other people are involved in your window cleaning then there is a trial to you should things go wrong.

[Lee Burbidge]

thats what i thought...thanks for clarification lee

all our guys are sub contracted and therefore self employed....no problems there then

as im trained and qualified to inspect ladders and step ladders, all our ladders are perfectly fine for them to use...so again no problem

plus...i always use the wfp where possible anyhow....as long as its suited to the job (we all know if being honest...it doesnt suit all jobs/and in a few cases,  traditional does a better job)

Hi James, you may have a duty to your sub contractors. You may have to insist that they find the safest way to clean windows. If other people are involved in your window cleaning then there is a trial to you should things go wrong.

Trained to check ladders is a good start for protecting yourself. Remeber dont skimp on the paperwork for this 

[james51174]

TBH they all have their own rounds and 9 times of 10 use their own equipment on our work

they only use our equipment if working with us...and then as stated, i choose wfp first, unless its not a suitable job...and then they are using our checked and passed ladders

we also paid for them to go on the ladder assosiation courses with us...so all bases are covered

http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/blma-training.jsp

[Window Washers]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

the answer to the question should be No to anyone that values there own safety and don't think of money or hassle first but ladders are still needed.

in real life people do what is easier for them, they cut corners till they have an accident then change the way they work, to work on ladders when it is a straight forward house with upvc is madness, the people are either scared to change, don't want to, or are just in it sort term. Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error, a little like trad cleaners that forget the corners.

[Lee Burbidge]

TBH they all have their own rounds and 9 times of 10 use their own equipment on our work

they only use our equipment if working with us...and then as stated, i choose wfp first, unless its not a suitable job...and then they are using our checked and passed ladders

we also paid for them to go on the ladder assosiation courses with us...so all bases are covered

http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/blma-training.jsp

Good man!   

[Lee Burbidge]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

the answer to the question should be No to anyone that values there own safety and don't think of money or hassle first but ladders are still needed.

in real life people do what is easier for them, they cut corners till they have an accident then change the way they work, to work on ladders when it is a straight forward house with upvc is madness, the people are either scared to change, don't want to, or are just in it sort term. Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error, a little like trad cleaners that forget the corners.

Im afraid I dont agree with that. WFP or ladders is cool if you work for yourself as discussed in the above posts. My friends use ladders but are still serious about there business and they have been cleaning for the pass 7 years.
Its a choice. I agree that those that have not used wfp might be afraid of change. But my mate has used wfp and still prefers his ladders.

[james51174]

 Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error,

i use both

and tbh over four decades of work, you would agree that a massively varied amount of work can be built up

there are jobs that just dont suit wfp

some types of dirty windows suit traditional methods

there are windows that just dont come up

there are customers who just dont want it (works both ways this line of thought as well)

i do straight forward upvc type jobs that dont like wfp...the windows spot etc....this isnt operator error on our part

we have a subbie thats used wfp for nearly ten years now and he still finds it on occasion inconsistent...to the point of two exact same jobs next to each other....one comes up...one doesnt

its a shame, as i am pro wfp....but in a few cases it doesnt cut the mustard

[Window Washers]

Should window cleaners use ladders if a safer method exists such as wfp?

When is it right to use a ladder?

the answer to the question should be No to anyone that values there own safety and don't think of money or hassle first but ladders are still needed.

in real life people do what is easier for them, they cut corners till they have an accident then change the way they work, to work on ladders when it is a straight forward house with upvc is madness, the people are either scared to change, don't want to, or are just in it sort term. Wfp surpasses trad cleaning hands down, there is no argument at all, only operator error, a little like trad cleaners that forget the corners.

Im afraid I dont agree with that. WFP or ladders is cool if you work for yourself as discussed in the above posts. My friends use ladders but are still serious about there business and they have been cleaning for the pass 7 years.
Its a choice. I agree that those that have not used wfp might be afraid of change. But my mate has used wfp and still prefers his ladders.

the reason they prefer ladders as they could not deal with the change over from waterfed pole Lee, it is a ballache I know I did this years ago as was 100% trad, I know trad guys still today, each to there own and all that but without doubt you can earn more than wfp simple as, I think no different of a trad window cleaner or a wfp, although I do find it odd you would make life hard for yourself and make less money but that's what makes life exciting I guess.

[james51174]

hmmm

i have a number of jobs i would never use wfp on, completely down to the fact that they are priced very well....and if i halved the time i took on the job by using the pole...i would lose the job

also 90% of our work is 12-14 weeks....it takes far longer in my experience with the pole, than the 4 week jobs tbh...its still quicker than traditional.....but not leaps and bounds...due to the time needed to rinse and prevent spots etc

but on the whole...i agree, on a job that suites wfp...its better in every way...esp if the customer is out and you can fly round

[idealrob]

STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS

2005 No. 735

HEALTH AND SAFETY

The Work at Height Regulations 2005

Made16th March 2005
Laid before Parliament16th March 2005
Coming into force6th April 2005
The Secretary of State, in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a), (5)(b), (6)(a) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (2) and (3), 9, 11, 14, 15(1) and 16 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (“the 1974 Act”) and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:

(1)1974 c. 37. Sections 15 and 50 were amended by the Employment Protection Act 1975 (c. 71) Schedule 15, paragraphs 6 and 16 respectively. The general purposes of Part I of the 1974 Act were extended by section 1(1) of the Offshore Safety Act 1992 (c. 15). Section 51A was inserted by section 1, and sections 52 and 53 were amended by sections 2 and 6 respectively, of the Police (Health and Safety) Act 1997 (c. 42)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/contents/made

its law passed in parliament and as said above its legislation, and as for self employed one man bands not having to follow it, your having a laugh, just goes to show how some make a living and others run a prifitable business.
if you dont believe and have nothing to loose, send an email to HSE, and put the reply on here, not oponions, i wrote after seeing another window cleaner friend who though he was excempt because he was a lone worker, he saw the email HSE sent me,

idealrob

rob I have asked this a few times, but never get an answer, why did the local council allow me to put an employee on a safe ladder use course? why did they pay for it? why is there a HSE document for window cleaners on the use of ladders
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

why can the council decorators varnish window after window without securing the ladder?

1: ladders are not banned, and council want to help safe ladder use, so a person trained on a ladder is usually safer than one not trained
2: the safe use of ladders for window cleaners is an old document when ladders were the norm
3: yes the law says ladders must be secured, but hse have not clarified what securing is,

Yes ladders have their uses, as well as wfp or trad poles, but the most important thing is the law, yes law agian, not a guidline says that if a ladder is to be used it has to be secured, and a full written  risk assesment has to be done, but lets face it , 9o% of the time it doesnt happen, but because other dont do it, does not make it right.

idealrob

[james51174]

not trying to argue with you but for work that doesnt require prolonged amounts of time to complete, it doesnt have to be secured by law ....at least for window cleaning and work under reasonable height/angles

[idealrob]

not trying to argue with you but for work that doesnt require prolonged amounts of time to complete, it doesnt have to be secured by law ....at least for window cleaning and work under reasonable height/angles

But you are arguing, where does it say it doesnt have to be secured , we are dealing in a law passed by parliament, not some idiot down the pub with his oponion, if i am wrong please argue and put the information on here, mine was a goverment legislation document with a web link. i am sick to death of excuse ar so called mickey mouse excemptions and here say, i will say it again ITS LAW, ITS LAW, no excemption for window cleaners.fact
go on punk make my day

idealrob

[james51174]

lol...ok buddy....i will carry on as i am, because i know im right....as said...i dont want to argue, so i wont get into it x

[idealrob]

you know you are right lol
as usuall its my ball and i am going to take it away, cant back  up the information you post, and say you are right, come on prove me wrong and £100 donation to a charity, if you are right you cant loose
Mine was goverment law, yours it not worth anything, prove me wrong please

go on punk make my day , or like all knowalls go away and hide, £100 to charity, you cant loose

idealrob

[mikecam]

Crooks of the matter is - you are allowed to use ladders for cleaning domestic 1st floor properties, its not illegal and you dont have to buy wfp systems.

The Crux of the matter is you should follow the law. Just because the 'authorities' turn a blind eye to cleaning domestic 1st floor properties does not make it lawful in itself.

If you employ people then from a self protection point of view you will have a legal obligation to seek the safest way of cleaning windows to protect your staff from injury and death and to protect your business from a HSE prosecution.

Simples.

Now this agree with. This is my understanding of it.

[stuart mc]

Rob if it as clear cut as that, why did when I sent my lad on the safe use of ladders course, did they allow him to use and they instructed him on the use of a ladder without securing? I read a while ago, but unfortunately I can't remember where that only a ladder over 9m should be secured, but it was down to risk assessment taking into consideration ground conditions for anything lower

[idealrob]

good point, but it also applies to one man bands, or partnerships, not just those who employ, imo

idealrob

[Lee Burbidge]

not trying to argue with you but for work that doesnt require prolonged amounts of time to complete, it doesnt have to be secured by law ....at least for window cleaning and work under reasonable height/angles

But you are arguing, where does it say it doesnt have to be secured , we are dealing in a law passed by parliament, not some idiot down the pub with his oponion, if i am wrong please argue and put the information on here, mine was a goverment
legislation document with a web link. i am sick to death of excuse ar so called mickey mouse excemptions and here say, i will say it again ITS LAW, ITS LAW, no
excemption for window cleaners.fact

lol jeeeeez calm down your gonna blow an eye socket lol
go on punk make my day

idealrob

[idealrob]

good point, but it also applies to one man bands, or partnerships, not just those who employ, imo

idealrob

Maybe they do not understand the law, and as said before, the HSE have not clarified what secured is, eg rojac ladder stopper. Who trained him in the safe use of ladders, two of our lads finished a course on Wednesday, but did not stay on for ladder course.
Its simple, i have emailed the HSE before, i will write and put it in writing from the HSE, it will take a week, but as said if its clear cut, in my oponion its is clear

idealrob

[james51174]

you know you are right lol
as usuall its my ball and i am going to take it away, cant back  up the information you post, and say you are right, come on prove me wrong and £100 donation to a charity, if you are right you cant loose
Mine was goverment law, yours it not worth anything, prove me wrong please

go on punk make my day , or like all knowalls go away and hide, £100 to charity, you cant loose

idealrob

why so angry rob....your being so abusive

i have only just completed a course at the ladder association http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/home.jsp  ....they work with the HSE (as do other training schools) to promote safe working on ladders and step ladders http://ladderassociation.org.uk/public/Interview_HSE_Chief_Exec.jsp

the subject of securing ladders was extensive, and is backed up again by HSE

  In window cleaning work, all ladders longer than 6 m must be secured The need to secure ladders less than 6 m long will depend on a number of factors including:
●
height - the greater the height, the greater the risk;
●
lone work - self-employed cleaners cannot use footed ladders and not all locations may permit the use of stability devices;
●
inherent stability of the ladder - the more securely the feet and top are located, eg by wedging on the ground or into a corner of a building, the less the risk

the above quote does back up what i posted.....and comes from here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

and this..

5.  A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—
(a)securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;.
(b)an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or.
(c)any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness

which is taken from here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

note section 5c as written above

i really dont want a fight...but your being so angry....im just stating what i learned, im not trying to attack or discredit what your saying

[matthewprice]

i find things really confusing ,i was given a hard time by local COUNCIL h&S  3 VERBAL WARNINGS and loads of extra reading ,felt forced to go wf ,but i see loads of trades up ladders still working granted not as high as i did but not according to the info i got .also in jan/feb got copy of new ammendments and they seem to say that footing a ladder is up for review.i think the law should be made clear for every one

[idealrob]

The information you use is from 2003, the WAHR was introduced in 2005, the information you gave is an information sheet and a guidline, mine in a law and as said passed in parliament, as i said before.
if you have any question write to the HSE, and let us know
i am sorry if come across angry, just we have large corporate clientss w work for eg Mars bars, Dupont international, EDF energy, and to get large contract have to have an uptodate H& S information and comply with the law

Thanks for having the ball* to reply and not runaway


idealrob

[james51174]

i did add a bit to the post...ill repost here

5.  A portable ladder shall be prevented from slipping during use by—
(a)securing the stiles at or near their upper or lower ends;.
(b)an effective anti-slip or other effective stability device; or.
(c)any other arrangement of equivalent effectiveness

which is taken from here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/735/schedule/6/made

note section 5c as written above

also this page has a section on tieing ladders which echos the above....and this is up to date from the 2005 regulation

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

thanks for calming down....as said...i wasnt trying to upset anyone

but i must stress that the course i did was only a few months back...with up to date information provided by HSE

there is a section on the above page which covers "are ladders banned" and it credits the people i did the course with as stated below .....

Are ladders banned?

 
No, ladders are not banned.  They can be used for low-risk, short duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment cannot be used due to the layout of the work area.
 
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders.
 
For more information, see Safe use of Ladders and Stepladders or go to the Ladder Association website .



i even did a practical session where i had to demonstrate the use of a ladder at around 2-3 metres from the ground

i did pass without the use of fixing or footing the ladder

im only saying what i was told

[idealrob]

going to beD in a min , not having a go at you, but a quote i heard was  a question
"whats the most dangerouus part of a car"
Answer "the nut behind the wheel" its a double answer.

we have just completed NVQ courses, and run by training43, and andrew is one of the most qualified guys i know, as well as previously been a window cleaner, wont say what he said, as bring up another can of worms

I dont know the ladder courses you went on or the ability of the trainers, but i do trust HSE , and the large blue chip companies wont allow any ladders, and they trust us

idealrob

[james51174]

I dont know the ladder courses you went on or the ability of the trainers, but i do trust HSE , and the large blue chip companies wont allow any ladders, and they trust us

idealrob

I understand you may not have heard of them.....but the HSE link to the ladder association on their website, on the link i gave you in my above post

we work for companies who dont allow ladderds as well...but even they will say its not down to law, rather their own H&S protocol, mainly manipulated by insurance companies

[idealrob]

the companies we work for is down to law, and have worked on larg chemical companies eg ICI plc and whats left of it for 55 years, but please write to HSe, i am just trying to find a contact email for them, goodnight

idealrob

[james51174]

the companies we work for is down to law, and have worked on larg chemical companies eg ICI plc and whats left of it for 55 years, but please write to HSe, i am just trying to find a contact email for them, goodnight

idealrob

the companies you work for it is law only down to the risk assesments though is it not?

the link below covers wether ladders are banned and quotes....


The Regulations do not ban the use of ladders. Ladders can be used for low-risk, short-duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment is not appropriate because of the location.

Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders. For more information on ladder safety, see: Safe use of ladders and stepladders .

http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/faq.htm#comply-with-work-at-height-regulations

so from this i gather your risk assesment deemed ladders inapropriate?

this would explain things i guess


no need for the addy rob

we have been through all this directly with the HSE on more than one occasion....one such time was for a major nationwide construction company we work for...we sat in a room with their own H&S guys (whole team of them actually) going through it all....then confirmed directly with HSE

but thanks for thinking of taking the time for us

[Nathanael Jones]

Are ladders banned?
 
No, ladders are not banned.  They can be used for low-risk, short duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment cannot be used due to the layout of the work area.
 
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders.

Exactly my point. I've no problem seeing ladders used properly, and where there is no alternative,... but very few 100% trad cleaners could even dream of meeting the criteria above.

As for "Low risk & short duration",... it might only take 60 seconds to clean a window, but if you go up the ladders 100 times a day then can it really still be called short duration?

[idealrob]

Just been looking on the ladder associatioand i have copied what it says" the Ladder Association, formerly the British Ladder Manufacturers' Association .
So just like ionic are biased towards wfp, these will be biased towards ladders, its obvious.
But look at the prices they are charging

What Will it Cost?

Membership Joining Fee                                          £375.00
 
Annual Membership Fee                                          £375.00
 
Training Centre Registration                                    £3000.00
 
Additional Training Centre Registration (Satellite)      £500.00
 
Annual Training Centre Audit Fee                             £400.00
 
Training Centre Delegate Registration Fee                 £10.00
 
All prices are exclusive of VAT, and subject to change without notice.

And people say wfp is too expensive

And acording to other posts above they do the training that does not seem to comply with the law, eg not securing ladders etc

By the way, what was the written risk assesment training like ?

idealrob
 

[Lee Burbidge]

That seems like a lot of money.

[tompoole]

I use the best tool for the job, if it's a pain with wfp then out
Comes the trad gear. I will use what ever gets the job done, I don't
Just stick to one, but have to say nearly all is done Wfp.

[Tom White]

the above quote does back up what i posted.....and comes from here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

This was the rules prior to the WAHD 2005, therefore it's been superceded and is no longer relevant.

I'm not 100% sure, say 80% sure.

WAHD 2005 has got to be the final authority here.

[james51174]

Just been looking on the ladder associatioand i have copied what it says" the Ladder Association, formerly the British Ladder Manufacturers' Association .
So just like ionic are biased towards wfp, these will be biased towards ladders, its obvious.
But look at the prices they are charging

What Will it Cost?

Membership Joining Fee                                          £375.00
 
Annual Membership Fee                                          £375.00
 
Training Centre Registration                                    £3000.00
 
Additional Training Centre Registration (Satellite)      £500.00
 
Annual Training Centre Audit Fee                             £400.00
 
Training Centre Delegate Registration Fee                 £10.00
 
All prices are exclusive of VAT, and subject to change without notice.

And people say wfp is too expensive

And acording to other posts above they do the training that does not seem to comply with the law, eg not securing ladders etc

By the way, what was the written risk assesment training like ?

idealrob
 

i think you will find thats the cost of becoming an instructor?...not sure

i payed around £150

here are the details of the training course...its used by HSS for their ladder and step ladder training

http://www.hsstraining.com/browse-sub-categories/browse-courses/course-details.aspx?courseref=301_LA_Steps

we were sent on the courseby the H&S officer from a construction company we work for

they were given a list of training courses by HSE, and ladder association were one of the companies on the list

also found on FWC website in training courses section

also, the HSE website links directly to the LA website

[Bryan_Dolby]

Hi every body
There are some incorrect messages in this topic
All ladders must be secured (WAHR 2005) either top or bottom
Height is guidance only 6 or 9 meters stated within the industry
There is no Height limit stated within legislation
Any body instructing people on a ladder safety course cannot let anybody go up a ladder with out it been secured
This is why the FWC does a IOSH accredited ladder and WFP health and safety training day to clarify how you can work within the health and safety regulations
My problem is that certain training organisations are putting the incorrect information out to window cleaners
Ladders should never be banned ,they are part of a window cleaners tool kit
Bryan

[james51174]

the above quote does back up what i posted.....and comes from here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf

This was the rules prior to the WAHD 2005, therefore it's been superceded and is no longer relevant.

I'm not 100% sure, say 80% sure.

WAHD 2005 has got to be the final authority here.

yes rob pointed that out

i found it on the hse site...but there are other links confirming the above point on the hse site, that do come under the 2005 act

i think i have listed them in one or more of the posts above


you can read it yourself here tosh, if you want ...its taken from the 2005 WAHR page of the HSE website

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

[Bryan_Dolby]

James 51174
Your qoute
i even did a practical session where i had to demonstrate the use of a ladder at around 2-3 metres from the ground

i did pass without the use of fixing or footing the ladder

im only saying what i was told  


We all agree the law says you have to secure the ladder at all times
But a instructor that trained you let you go against the law by not securing the ladder

I am sorry it seems your course as not given you the correct information

Bryan

[james51174]

James 51174
Your qoute
i even did a practical session where i had to demonstrate the use of a ladder at around 2-3 metres from the ground

i did pass without the use of fixing or footing the ladder

im only saying what i was told  


We all agree the law says you have to secure the ladder at all times
But a instructor that trained you let you go against the law by not securing the ladder

I am sorry it seems your course as not given you the correct information

Bryan

i get what your trying to tell be bryan, but im going by the HSE website here

the page listing "what do i need to do to comply to the WAHR 2005"

which is found here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-height.htm

the section headed "do i need to tie a ladder?" quotes (and please note the HSE recomendation to go to the ladder association website...which includes a link directly to their site) this.....
Do I have to tie my ladder?

 
Ladders have to be prevented from slipping during use.  The options for securing a ladder are as follows:
-tie the ladder to a suitable point making sure both stiles are tied;
-where this is not practicable, use a ladder stability device;
-if this is not possible then securely wedge the ladder e.g. against a wall;
-if none of the above are possible then foot the ladder.  Footing is the last resort and should be avoided where possible by the use of other methods.

For more information on ladder safety see: Safe Use of ladders and stepladders , or go to the Ladder Association website .




..you see, i have never disputed that the ladder should be secure....but from this information above (and you must understand, considering its the HSE website) i can only say that i will continue to believe that tieing a ladder is not my only option...
 

[stuart mc]

james thanks for that link clarifying that, it now has become clear to me

[james51174]

Are ladders banned?
 
No, ladders are not banned.  They can be used for low-risk, short duration work and where a risk assessment shows that other more suitable work equipment cannot be used due to the layout of the work area.
 
Schedule 6 of the Work at Height Regulations deals with the requirements for ladders.

Exactly my point. I've no problem seeing ladders used properly, and where there is no alternative,... but very few 100% trad cleaners could even dream of meeting the criteria above.

As for "Low risk & short duration",... it might only take 60 seconds to clean a window, but if you go up the ladders 100 times a day then can it really still be called short duration?

well im going by the WAHR 2005 document found here

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf


which confirms it is a guide in this paragraph

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the
guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you
do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the
law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and
may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.


 

[james51174]

Hi every body
There are some incorrect messages in this topic
All ladders must be secured (WAHR 2005) either top or bottom
Height is guidance only 6 or 9 meters stated within the industry
There is no Height limit stated within legislation
Any body instructing people on a ladder safety course cannot let anybody go up a ladder with out it been secured
This is why the FWC does a IOSH accredited ladder and WFP health and safety training day to clarify how you can work within the health and safety regulations
My problem is that certain training organisations are putting the incorrect information out to window cleaners
Ladders should never be banned ,they are part of a window cleaners tool kit
Bryan

here is the course that the ladder association provide if it helps?

http://www.hsstraining.com/browse-sub-categories/browse-courses/course-details.aspx?courseref=301_LA_Steps

also the fedaeration of window cleaners (who i believe you are high up in?) lists them on there website for training courses...i guess then that they are recomended by you guys?

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/links.htm

when i was given there details i did check up on them....and that included looking on your site

[Bryan_Dolby]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR 
Bryan

[stuart mc]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR 
Bryan

what is a micro light? I tried google but just got flying lessons

[Bryan_Dolby]

James

Not as high as you think just retired,doing my last few months

Bryan

[james51174]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR  
Bryan

thing is Bryan...i feel that the majority here think im being a know it all

now there seems to be two issues people are having with me here, the first being the organisation i used to carry out my training

firstly....I am only seeking the truth myself

In doing this I underwent a training course by an organisation, linked to and recomended by HSE, recomended by FWC, and sponsored by HSS tool & equipment hire

more info here

http://www.cleaning43.com/latest-news/latest-news-article.php?latestNewsID=712

this would seem a very credible organisation would it not?

so when i undertook my practical session...and after a mental assesment of the risk, decided it ok to safely use a ladder without securing or footing...i could only be under the impression that i have done it correctly, and in line with HSE ....ater all, they helped supply us with the ladder association website

The other issue is the subject of law

Now i have gone to great lengths to search out HSE WAHR 2005 information

i said that a ladder doesnt HAVE to be secured by law

i provided up to date info to back this up, stating other correct methods available...which includes footing...which to me isnt under the ubrella of the word 'securing'

maybe my use of the english language is different to some others...maybe i failed to ask rob to define the word 'secure'

i also said that a ladder doesnt HAVE to be the last resort for WAH....i never said it shouldnt be...or that i dont use this protocol myself

i also backed this up with a link and a quote from a WAHR 2005 document, which clearly states its only a guide...but is recomended

so both issues(securing by law, and ladder being a last option by law), no matter what way round you look at it are answered by the statement

This guidance is issued by the Health and Safety Executive. Following the
guidance is not compulsory and you are free to take other action. But if you
do follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the
law. Health and safety inspectors seek to secure compliance with the law and
may refer to this guidance as illustrating good practice.

i dont know what else to say really, its written in black and white (maybe grey is a more suitable colour lol)

But im met with such fierce posting by people on here

after all....all im trying to do is work out the grey area that we are all suffering to try and understand

im not attacking anyone

im not making fun or acting like i know best

all ive done is show the relevant info both shown to me, and that of which i have resesrched myself

so why all this anymosity from so many here?

[james51174]

James

Not as high as you think just retired,doing my last few months

Bryan

now i am jealous of you

all the best for the future...and from what i read....well done in all you have acheived at FWC

[james51174]

Hi James
I understand what you are saying but it does say you have to secure the ladder, with some of the ways in your post
My understanding is you cannot use a ladder on its own (Like we did in the old days)
My ways are Micro light on the top or ladder mate on the bottom at all times; every window cleaner can comply with the WAHR  
Bryan

what is a micro light? I tried google but just got flying lessons

is it the orange rubber covers that go over the end of the styles?

not sure myself

we have a ladder mate for the bottom

but all our ladders are pointers ar the top with a rubber end (you know the type).....never had one move (at the top) more than half an inch in my whole carreer

[stuart mc]

james don't worry mate, I have read this all and you have clarified a few things for me, I am going to have to re think a few jobs, mainly internal ladder work, but seeing both sides has made me wiser and shown that I was slightly wrong in my knowledge.

[james51174]

thank you stuart...the way you have taken my posts is the way i intended everyone to

[G Griffin]

A Microlite is a type of ladder stand-off, isn't it?

[james51174]

dunno...but if it is we have a few of them too...but admittedly i only use it for doing conservatory roofs

[james51174]

found it...your right...its not the type we have though

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/acatalog/Basic_Products.html

not sure if it is any safer than the pointed top ladders we use though....seems to do the same job tbh

[stuart mc]

found it...your right...its not the type we have though

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/acatalog/Basic_Products.html

not sure if it is any safer than out pointed top ladders though....seems to do the same job tbh

bit pricey for a stand off, but at least I know what it is now

[Lee Burbidge]

james don't worry mate, I have read this all and you have clarified a few things for me, I am going to have to re think a few jobs, mainly internal ladder work, but seeing both sides has made me wiser and shown that I was slightly wrong in my knowledge.

see chatting bout these things does really give results

[idealrob]

some people think its a guidence , the others know its law

here is a defination of legislation

leg·is·la·tion   [lej-is-ley-shuhn]  Show IPA
noun
1.
the act of making or enacting laws.
2.
a law or a body of laws enacted.

its a law, if it was a guide why was michael mills prosecuted for not complying with the law , the first prosecution of the WAHR 2005, and it cost him thousands, or do you still  believe its a guide

idealrob

[idealrob]

Here is the details for Michael Mills prosecution for breaking the law & no accident took place

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05124.htm

On 13 April 2005, seven days after the regulations came into force, three employees of Michael Mills arrived at a site to salvage tiles from a building prior to demolition. The employees used an unsecured ladder to access a pitched roof and started to strip the roof even though no risk assessment had been undertaken and no provision had been made for them to work safely at height.

idealrob

[Londoner]

No one is going to arrest 100% trads and HSE are only interested in people injured by ladders when it goes to court. You not going to take yourself to court are you?

Thats not true, I know of at least two cases where people have been done purely for working off ladders. No accident or incident involved H&S just turned up and nicked them because they were driving by and saw them.

Neither were window cleaners, the first were painters doing the outside of some flats and the second were two blokes fitting facias.

But all of this is missing the real point, can anyone show me a window above ground floor level thats not easier to clean WFP?

easier = quicker
quicker = more money
easier + quicker = less tired at end of day having done more jobs. More money in pocket

Where on earth is the argument in favour of trad?   Slower, harder work, less money, plus the risk of injury, even death and now the risk of prosecution as well.  Good choice lads, carry on, no worries there.

[dazmond]

good post vince!!said in a nutshell!!

ladders are needed sometimes but only a few times a week for me.some days i dont even have to get them off the rack!!!

i was pretty much what you could call a die hard tradder for years.glad i changed my attitude and method.WFP is for the most part the easier,safer method.

[idealrob]

good post Vince,  yes some jobs are better cleaned off ladders, and others better of wfp, some of us learn its a business, and the aim is to make a good living, working quicker and safer. All we hope that window cleaners work according to the law, and no lives a shattered as the advert says

idealrob

[stuart mc]

good point vince but irrelevant, nobody was discussing whether trad was better, merely trying to sort out the actual rules if you do use a ladder, even if only now and then. a lot including me though under a certain height and in the right circumstances they could be used without tying or using a stabilising device was ok, but through the back and forth links being shared on this topic I can see I was wrong.

and yes I run a business and know fine well wfp earns me more, but I now need to work out how I am going to do some jobs, internally mostly and comply with the law

[Dave Willis]

Wouldn't worry - nobody else does round my way. Watched a builder climb up an unfooted ladder last week up onto the roof pull a couple of tiles off for a handhold and carried on working - lobbing chunks of mortar over the edge. Gutter installers working off ladders not tied off, same with painters and ariel fitters. Cavity wall workers right at the top of a ladder under the gables with a whacking great drill, no hands on the ladders. No helmets no high viz vests no warning cones - nothing. They must p themselves laughing at window cleaners.

[idealrob]

Wouldn't worry - nobody else does round my way. Watched a builder climb up an unfooted ladder last week up onto the roof pull a couple of tiles off for a handhold and carried on working - lobbing chunks of mortar over the edge. Gutter installers working off ladders not tied off, same with painters and ariel fitters. Cavity wall workers right at the top of a ladder under the gables with a whacking great drill, no hands on the ladders. No helmets no high viz vests no warning cones - nothing. They must p themselves laughing at window cleaners.

The only laugh at the WFP guys, not the ladder guys, and as for the roofers its called ignorance, and not all roofers work like that, its the same in every industry i guess

idealrob

[james51174]

Right guys...Im back...and moving on

first off...Rob, thanks for your concern...I know all you had was my (and others reading) best interests at heart mate, so thanks you

Now I am playing devils advocate here...and bare in mind I DO use WFP for lots of work...but it is only a tool for me...as is traditional methods....

To this post

Where on earth is the argument in favour of trad?   Slower, harder work, less money, plus the risk of injury, even death and now the risk of prosecution as well.  

 WFP is always the best way, is it...really?

maybe there are alot of times that a ladder is safer to others around

yes, a ladder can be both a trip hazzard, as well as a hazzard from falling objects

but lets look at a job on a high street...lets say a flat above a shop

lets say that it isnt possible to do the job out of hours for what ever reason (and there are many)

is it ladder safer to use a ladder, sufficiantly coned or barrierd off with warning signs and a footer to both maintain the ladders grip, and warn anyone blind (or anyone not concentrating) about the hazzard?

Or is WFP safer?

yes you can barrier off the area as well...but to what extent?

how far is the van from the job?

is there 20metres of hose to barrier off?

do we need to bear this in mind...?....

http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/Safety_in_Window_Cleaning_using_Waterfed_Pole_Systems.Ameded.2%20pdf.pdf

Hazards associated with the use of waterfed poles
• Trip hazards to general public presented by trailing hoses.
• Slip hazard presented from wet pathways.
• Slip hazard for operator while concentrating on work.
• Falls from height when working from flat roofs.
• Electrocution from pole coming into contact with overhead power source.
• Injury to others from falling poles or fabric of the building that may be dislodged.
• Injury to others from falling poles caused by incorrect handling or failure of pole.
• Injury through incorrect manual handling of poles and other equipment.
• Spread of legionella disease through poor maintenance of the system.
• Hazards from carrying tanks, systems and equipment that are overloaded, unstable, unsecured or
incorrectly installed within a vehicle.

Working in exposed positions
The need to concentrate on overhead activity may expose the operator to further hazards that may
include:
• Trips or falls.
• Falls from flat roofs.
• Collision with pedestrians or road traffic.

Risk Assessment
The purpose of risk assessment is simply to identify particular risks on any job in order to take precautions
to minimise them, typically these may include:
• Instruction in the need for the operator to be vigilant with regard to the surroundings.
• Providing adequate PPE and/or roof edge protection or other systems.
• Giving consideration to the day and time of cleaning.
• Provision of hi-viz clothing.
• Cordoning off work areas to prevent public access.


so with this all in mind......is the ladder both easier, and safer to the public if correctly used and barriered off?

you could argue that a WFP trolly system would be just as effective as a ladder, as you could barrier off a far smaller area......

but what about the risk to the public in the rare case of a dropped pole?

I may be wrong....but in all my HSE digging over the last few days, Im sure i read somewhere that there is legislation regarding barriering off an area big enough to cover a dropped pole at the height its extended to

Is this still the best method to use in a high street...or public area?

I would say that it has its own liabilities, as does a ladder depending on where you are working, who is around...and what time of day

i was asked while working on a building site (nearly finnished work area...no public around but loads of sparkies etc) to not use the pole as it posed too many hazzards with all the hoses around....so they requested a ladder

now i will stress that i would rather use WFP as it is easier and quicker(not in every case but generally).......so im not posting this because im pro ladder....but is ''easier and quicker'' worth the risk in all circumstances???

have a think then discuss

and if anyone knows of any hse links to the safe use of WFP please post as i would be interested to see how far we need to go in public areas for public safety

[stuart mc]

james I have come across a few times where wfp is more dangerous than ladders, indeed I have been stopped from working from H&S rep from a company as the risk to the public was higher than risk to myself, and that was at 6am

I also know that in certain areas of a city centre that wfp above a certain height was stopped by H&S and they had to go back to cherry pickers/scissor lifts etc, no matter what time of the day or night

back onto ladders though I have one job that involves opening large double sash windows, hooking onto an eye bolt/certified yearly and me wearing a fully body harness, and taking a small pointer out onto a small balcony to clean the top of the sash windows, they are georgion though so a trad pole would be useless, and a stabiliser for the ladder would not work either, I am at a loss how this can be done and comply with all regs

[james51174]

step ladder?

small stool of hop up?...bit like the ones for reaching in stock rooms?

[idealrob]

your post is a bit confusing james but i understand your concern, i was doing a job today, and yes some of the window would have cleaned better using a single 18 foot ladder, secured by a rojac ladder stop,  and in this case the result would have been better, due to flaking paint on metal frames, and lots of shrubs, not giving us a good enough angle, but we uses wfp, as it complies with the law and makes it safer for everyone, as no public around, but for me and the staff, if hse or anyone else asks, we have done our best and complied with the law, as the bible says " give to ceasar what is ceasars" and i know i have done this, i know i will get some stick on here, for this statement, but i am happy with the methods, even though on some jobs it is not the best method  for getting great results

idealrob

[james51174]

how big is the balcony?

does it have guard rails?

[james51174]

your post is a bit confusing

idealrob

it was mainly to play devils advocate

and aimed at those who say that wfp is ALWAYS better, quicker etc...to make them think a while about it

i agree it is quicker, easier...and 9 times of 10 a better job.....but is every case safer with WFP???

an area in publis to barrier off for wfp to be safe is far larger than whats required to make a ladder safe

and in public its not always possible to provide a safe area to work in with wfp....think small pavements, public roads etc

mainly the post was to make people think about IF the pole is always better in the HSE eyes

[stuart mc]

step ladder?

small stool of hop up?...bit like the ones for reaching in stock rooms?

cheers mate won't do though each pain must be 6 foot, and there is no difference to standing on my pointer to standing on a step ladder really, these old balconys have a habit of collapsing so I suppose it doesn't matter much as I am ok as I am hooked to the building

yes the balcony has rails and it goes out around two feet at a guess, I need the pointer so I can climb at an angle into the window edge, I suppose either way pole or ladder or step ladder I am covered as I hook onto the eyebolt, I am not overly worried as I can't see any other method of doing it

[james51174]

there is a difference stuart as a step ladder (provided it is suitable for trade work) is stable...and i dont THINK it requires any aditional stabilizing equipment...or a footer to use one

i would say any equipment liable to fall (inc the step ladder) should also be secured/tied in case it falls

a caution sign inside the window to remind people you are out there, and climbing in/out

maybe caution signs directly below you on the ground reminding of over head work

[stuart mc]

there is a difference stuart as a step ladder (provided it is suitable for trade work) is stable...and i dont THINK it requires any aditional stabilizing equipment...or a footer to use one

i would say any equipment liable to fall (inc the step ladder) should also be secured/tied in case it falls

a caution sign inside the window to remind people you are out there, and climbing in/out

maybe caution signs directly below you on the ground reminding of over head work

thanks, I hear you, but it is done at 5am no one in the office apart from the guy that lets me in and below is an empty basement area, and if the balcony did go a pointer or step ladder falling would make no odds really, don't worry about it I would really need to take a pic for anyone to understand, it is old cast iron balcony on a sandstone wall built however may hundred years ago

[stuart mc]

never mind me though, James makes a much more interesting post about wfp being unsafe at times and where is the guidelines/law on this?

[Londoner]

your post is a bit confusing

idealrob

.....but is every case safer with WFP???

You don't have to accept every job that comes your way, I turn down lots of jobs because they have some sort of problem, access, where they are, balconies etc. You pick the jobs not the other way round. But possibly a third of the jobs I do now would have been turned down were I still trad. Mostly because of conservatories and extensions.

You seem to be looking hard to find examples where WFP is less suitable but I can think of hundreds that are the other way round.

Being selective is important for keeping your business the way you want it to be

[idealrob]

We pick and choose jobs, and are not frightened to walk away for safety reasons, other jobs we take on, there are a few windows in the corners that because of access , its not the best method for results with wfp than a mop/blade, but bearing in mind there are over 5000 windows, its worth puting up with, and there are a few on fourth floor because of bushes/shrubs in the way , we dont do, fact

After all the issues on this post about are ladders needed if wfp exists, i would say yes, even though we dont use any ladders, thats my oponion, but the crux of the matter is if ladders are going to be used, the hve to be secured and a written risk assesment has to be done, fact.,
but w/c will debate all day about securing and argue, when it makes them and the job safer, and no lives get shattered, but you would think giving them this advice was like asking them to do something absolutly shocking and go against there principals etc.
When we last used ladders in the early 90`s, we used a rojac stopper and a ladder linpit at the top, and i felt safe all day, but some people wont listen or argue, i know which one i would use, a secured ladder against a non- secured ladder

idealrob