[C-N-C]

Hiya again guy's
hope ya all sound...
Well as some ov you know i invested in a 40/40 Hf5 low pressure system from gaps,a system what runs just on low tap pressure,without a pump-
LINK-http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=104058.20
Now, when i first got system it was producing 14ppm (without a boosterpump @ 10psi)....then rose to 16ppm & now its on 19ppm starting to worry me now
I'v had it about 7 weeks now & just changed sediment & carbon pre-filters(10") to see if that was problem,but it's still the same.
My first sediment housing gauge is registering @ 10psi,but the carbon houseing gauge after the sediment gauge   is not registering nothing,as if no water is going through at all??STRANGE
I have also got a water softner added.
would love to know what the problem is guy's,or could this 40/40 membrain do with a bit more psi,even tho its a low psi model?

Or do the membrains settle after a while & this will be the best it will produce???

Any help or insight into this will be much appreciated as i have bought system's b4 & the tds has been realy low for few weeks then crept up a lil bit & settled........might b just me..... :

Anyone with a bit ov membrain/Hf5 experience,i'd love to hear ya view's

Thank you for ya time & kindest regards
Justin
www.clean-n-clearwindows.co.uk

[mark mann]

hi c-n-c

im noy familiar with a low pressure system but your tds ppm seem high - mine have crept upto 2  and it seems likely the carbon/sediment and or resin needs changing i think the tolerable ppm is a max of 15 though im guessing your running the chance of spotting. the hiher your ppm.
i have wondered myself if you can re-pack the resin to get more life out of it.

so they say change the carbon and sediment filters every 3months approx -

hope u get it sorted

[Mr Bungalow]

Hello CNC,

Have you never tried adding a di resin tank to polish the last 015 TDS and take it down to zero

Should be ok once it has been done.

Warm regards.

[C-N-C]

hi c-n-c

im noy familiar with a low pressure system but your tds ppm seem high - mine have crept upto 2  and it seems likely the carbon/sediment and or resin needs changing i think the tolerable ppm is a max of 15 though im guessing your running the chance of spotting. the hiher your ppm.
i have wondered myself if you can re-pack the resin to get more life out of it.

so they say change the carbon and sediment filters every 3months approx -

hope u get it sorted

Hiya guy's
Big"THANK YOU" for takin da time to post!!!!!
Hiya Mark m8,
The DI resin is okay man,it's just the pure coming from RO....
It was 14ppm when i first got system bout 7 weks ago,then it rose to 16ppm,now it's on 19ppm.......strange.....
I'v changed sed/carbon filter's & it's still the same,i just dont want this ppm to keep rising or i would ov bin better keeping my old RO.... :

Thank you again mark mate,ya sound bud

Kindest regards
Justin

Hiya Mr Bungalow mate.....
Yeah dude,i have di bottles to polish the tds off,but,i am worried about water from new 40" RO...as the tds is creeping up slowley....when is it gunna stop bud?

Thank you for ya post's fella's
It's good to c a few guy's willing to try & sort ya problem out for ya......
BIG UP YOU FELLA'S
Left me waste fully open to flush system out for bout 15 min's....dont think that will drop ppm again,but its worth a try

Thank you again guy's
Take care & kindest regards
Justin
www.clean-n-clearwindows.co.uk

[C-N-C]

Hiya again guy's ppm is now 22-23..........a big jump from 14ppm when i purchased it a few weeks ago  
that's just about 10ppm rise from a brand new 40/40 RO
This cannot be right,surely guy's!!!!!
This RO was £500+
Anyone have any experience with membrains,RO's etc.....??Who maybee could shed bit light on this problem for me....PLEASE HELP
Like i say i'v changed sediment & carbon filter & had a mark on tap & pressure gauge so i know exactley where it needs to be for best ppm results & it's just not happening.....
I have recentley added a water softner,wich i flush the beads out once a week with dishsalts to regenarate them & send waste to drain.....i have disconected softner & still the same ppm?

Anyone help me out here lad's?

Take care & kindest regards
Justin
www.clean-n-clearwindows.co.uk

[steve smith]

I bought a HF5 at the same time. I have only got 20 psi but it is reading 20psi in both gauges. That's without a pump. Tds in around 300 out is about 17 can't get it any lower than that.

Can't understand though why only one gauge is reading the psi.

Steve

[C-N-C]

Hiya steve mate
I remember you getting your's man.....
Your psi is 20......mine wasnt even registering on the 2 gauges steve ,when i first bought it,my tap psi was that poor, until i closed drain valve a bit then they both rose the same time........
That's when i was getting 14ppm...(i turned the drain valve until the gauges rose to just under 30psi)
so 30psi was running through & i was producing 14ppm from 550 ppm tap water @ 30psi
But now when my drain valve is fully open ,only the first gauge register's 10psi (sediment filter)& the other (carbon filter)dont register/move at all....!!!
Mind you steve if i was getting 14ppm from mine & my tap water was 550+....i'v bin doing well & still not to bad realy.....,if you got 300 going in & 17 coming out ....
So now im on 550+ going in & 22-23 coming out...HMMMMMMMM!!! is that the norm???
Carnt help wondering why them gauges wrong & ppm rose so high from new!!!!!!

We could do with a couple of membrain boffin's on here bud,couldnt we?...LOL
Did you play about with the drain valve to get best ppm steve?

Thank you for ya post man....it's alway's a pleasure dude
Kindest regards
Justin

[Ian_Giles]

First things first; have you contacted Gaps Water and discussed your problem with them?
They ARE the specialists after all!

However; trying to understand your problem isn't easy, or rather the solving of it isn't!

The difference in the readings of the two pressure gauges when you have the drain valve open - I take it that you do mean the tap/valve that gives the back pressure to enable the membrane to work? - with such a low mains pressure the second gauge will hardly register at all, and will only do so as you begin to close the drain valve, thereby actually building up pressure for it to resister!

If you close the valve too far you will quickly clog up the membrane, especially with such a high tap water TDS reading.

I don't know what ratio of waste to pure should be with a low pressure 4040 R/O, but with a standard 4040 R/O, although you can achieve a 50:50 ratio of waste to pure, the lower the waste part of the ratio you try for will also reduce to potential lifespan of the membrane.

You really need to talk with Gaps Water to check what ratio they recommend. I know you have a mark on your gauge, but If there is a problem with the gauges you can always have the waste going to one measuring vessel and the pure to another to double check the ratio between them.

I know nothing about the use of a water softener setup used in conjunction with an R/O,  but I'm presuming you are using it as recommended by gaps?
Ditto the regeneration of the beads?

With such low mains pressure, perhaps you could try opening your drain valve fully and flush your membrane for an awful lot longer than 15 minutes?

My own mains pressure is 65 psi, and prior to EVERY use of my own 4040 the membrane is flushed for 20 minutes before closing the drain valve and beginning the production of pure water.

You do flush before every use of your R/O don't you?

With a low pressure 4040 I also don't know how long it will take once you close the drain valve for the membrane to achieve maximum efficiency, but with my own 4040 and 65psi, even after flushing it still takes a few minutes to achieve maximum efficiency.

Ian

[luther1]

As a 4040 reduces ppm by 98% so your ppm in of 550 should produce water out at 11 or so ppm. Changing pre filters generally doesn't change ppm reading just the longevity of the membrane. Can you manually adjust your valve to produce more waste and therefore reduce ppm reading?

[C-N-C]

Hiya ian mate

First things first; have you contacted Gaps Water and discussed your problem with them?
They ARE the specialists after all!

Not as yet mate,i will monday morning...as it's getting worse now..

I take it that you do mean the tap/valve that gives the back pressure to enable the membrane to work? - with such a low mains pressure the second gauge will hardly register at all, and will only do so as you begin to close the drain valve, thereby actually building up pressure for it to resister!

Yes i do mate,the drain valve.......so that's the norm then...i can tick that box

If you close the valve too far you will quickly clog up the membrane, especially with such a high tap water TDS reading.

I don't know what ratio of waste to pure should be with a low pressure 4040 R/O, but with a standard 4040 R/O, although you can achieve a 50:50 ratio of waste to pure, the lower the waste part of the ratio you try for will also reduce to potential lifespan of the membrane.

Right ian mate,i was playing about with waste ratio when i first got system & gap's told me not to bother,the membrain will be happiest when the tds is @ its lowest....so i got tds down to 14 then marked psi gauges & drain valve for future refrence...so i never finished the waste ratio,but theres a lot more going to drain.....

I know nothing about the use of a water softener setup used in conjunction with an R/O,  but I'm presuming you are using it as recommended by gaps?
Ditto the regeneration of the beads?

on my instructions ian,it recomends me to use a water softner in hard water area's......so iv used a old di vessel bottle & bought softner beads & filled the bottle with the beads ,then attached it after tap & before filters etc........then i disconect it to flush salts through,until all salts have gone....then connect it again to system...
Mind you ian,im sure this was okay until i added this softner...im not sure......
I wonder if i disconect it then flush again without softner.........its flushing now,gunna leave it to flush for a hour with softner on see if that's any better as you asked i hardley never flush it.....only for 2 minutes couple times a week... :

With such low mains pressure, perhaps you could try opening your drain valve fully and flush your membrane for an awful lot longer than 15 minutes?

My own mains pressure is 65 psi, and prior to EVERY use of my own 4040 the membrane is flushed for 20 minutes before closing the drain valve and beginning the production of pure water.

You do flush before every use of your R/O don't you?

I'v NEVER FLUSHED IT LIKE THAT DUDE
Like i say ian mate,im flushing it now for the next hour to c if that improves it....
I'll post later with a progress report
Thank you so much for you input my mate....ya sound fella

Take care ian & kind regards
Justin

Hiya luther1 m8

As a 4040 reduces ppm by 98% so your ppm in of 550 should produce water out at 11 or so ppm. Changing pre filters generally doesn't change ppm reading just the longevity of the membrane. Can you manually adjust your valve to produce more waste and therefore reduce ppm reading?

Thank you dude......
I thought it should be better than that reading man
Steve,did ya get that man???
yeah luther1 i changed filters and never made diffrence....wot a waste of money
I'v also played about with drain valve & cannot get it any lower bud......

Big thank you for them figures man.....good to know what i should be getting

Thank you luther1 mate
Take care & kind regards
Justin


Carnt help thinking guy's...is it this water softner...it was okay till i put that in,then bout a week or 2 later it started creeping up

I will phone gaps morro...& c wot its like after a good flush in a hour or 2.....i carnt belive this fella's

Take care guy's...ya sound
Justin

[luther1]

I'm in a hard water area and don't use a water softener at all and i've had my 4040 nearly 2 years and changed the pre filters once. I use 2000-2500 litres a week

[C-N-C]

I'm in a hard water area and don't use a water softener at all and i've had my 4040 nearly 2 years and changed the pre filters once. I use 2000-2500 litres a week

That's unbelivable luther bud
what's your tap inlet tds & outlet tds with your 40/40,if ya dont mind me asking??
I'v bin flushing my system out for about a hour now dude....im gunna try it now & if no improvement im gunna take water softner out,then flush for another hour see how it goes..........

Kindest regards
Justin

[luther1]

I will walk down the end of my garden and check my tds when it stops raining here.As i'm filling my tank up at the moment i can give you both accurate readings. Who recommended 10" pre-filters? I thought rule of thumbwith a 4040 was 20" filters? June at Gaps has forgotten more than we know so she will enlighten you tomorrow for sure

[C-N-C]

hey luther
Thanks man
It was actuly june from gap's who i bought the full system off
http://www.gapswater.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww.gapswater.co.uk%2f&WD=40&PN=copy_of_Reverse_osmosis_kits.html%23a1111#a1111
This is the 1 i bought luther mate......
I phoned ro man for a price & he said the same as you,want 20" filters on 40/40...
but it was a bit pricey for his system......that's probaly why..LOL
Thank you luther man
Talk to ya soon bud
Justin

[Ian_Giles]

The removal of 98% of the dissolved solids is correct, but it does depend on having optimum conditions.
With a normal 4040, the lower the water pressure of your mains, the less efficient your system will be...
Not sure what is considered the ideal water pressure range for a low pressure 4040 membrane.
You have ruled out the pre=filters, however; if the particulate filter is exhausted it can cause a reduction in membrane pressure and therfore a reduction in membrane efficiency.
An exhausted carbon filter will no longer do its job; membranes get damaged by chlorine...change them regularly, the 10 inch ones are not expensive...

I was going to go for the larger 20 inch pre-filters, but didn't bother, the housings might be a one off payment, but the actual filters are more than double the price of the smaller ones 10 inch ones, at least where I purchase mine from!!

Without knowing how a water softener impacts on an R/O system, it sounds to me as if it is most probably linked to lack of sufficient flushing of the membrane prior to pure water production.
I will look forward with interest to hearing how you get on with things after a more intensive flushing of the membrane, and also if the removal = should the flush with water softener still in place makes no difference - of said water softener effects your results...

Fingers crossed for you, and if our 'non specialist' advice proves ineffective, I'm sure June from Gaps will get you sorted if you need to call her 

Ian

[C-N-C]

Hiya Ian mate...
Your post's have been great....
THANK YOU
I have changed filters, as i said ian,£11.00 for the 2 ......your right,realy cheap.....
I bought the system less than 2 month ago,so filter's should of been okay

Without knowing how a water softener impacts on an R/O system, it sounds to me as if it is most probably linked to lack of sufficient flushing of the membrane prior to pure water production.

I have family who run a big buisness & they have a water company contractor's to keep water soft....now when i added water softner to my system the ppm rose from 550 to 600 tds....so i pannicked & got in touch with family,who rang contractors & they recon the extra ppm will have no effect whatsoever on ro system.....!!!!
infact it will keep it effective...EH!!


Anyway ian mate...getting back to flushing....i flushed with water softner still on for hours and no change.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Took water softner off & flushed for couple hours & ppm dropped from 23 to 20..........
Could this be the problem....i havent flushed enough? :


So the softner is hmmmmm!!!!!   not sure....will flush a lot longer tommorow
Let ya know if it gets any lower bud.....
I HOPE SO.....

Ya know ya stuff fella
Take care ian & Kindest regards
Justin

[dd]

From what you have said I am guessing the softener for some reason could be the problem (theoretically it shouldn't, perhaps it is adding some sort of contaniment), be interesting to know if it works much better without.

With such low water pressure I don't think you will get the best performance even from a low pressure membrane.

Good luck and best wishes.

[C-N-C]

Hiya guys & dd

just Been on to june from gaps & the problem,she said is the manual water softner im useing
This one @ the top ov the page-http://www.cleaningspot.co.uk/acatalog/Purolite_water_softener_resin_and_Salt.html :

I had a old di vessel & a old 10" cartrige & made 1 myself
Now iv been regenerating the softner beads once a week & gap's said i should be regenerating them everyday nealy.......
They say it sound's like the softner vessel has been holding that much impurities,it has caused blocking of membrain
She also said it should come round if i take softner off or replace it with a automatic 1 & i am doing well at 22ppm from 500+......
she said i should expect about 30ppm...dont know about that like...LOL
Also she said 5 minutes is enough for a flush
So it looks like my softner is turning back to a resin vessel for the tank
I did not realy like the thought of running salt through system..it sound's scary...but...if it was gunna protect membrain i had to give it a go

Anyway guy's...that's the problem by the looks of it,just hope it hasnt done any serious dammage.....

A realy big thank you for your help guy's
VERRY MUCH APPRECITED
Ya ALL SOUND
I will post on this thread if tds start's to drop.....

Thank you again & kindest regards

Justin
www.clean-n-clearwindows.co.uk

[C-N-C]

P.S..Anyone live near hartlepool want some softner beads?

[Ian_Giles]

Glad you have got it sorted 

Regards flushing...if you are on a meter it makes sense to flush for the shortest time possible, I was told 5 minutes too, but tend to play it safe
Now I'm not supplying Squeaky a 1000 litres can last me 3 days, ergo I only flush & re-fill on average about 3 times for every 10 working days, and as I'm not on a meter a 20 minute flush gives me piece of mind...better safe than sorry...even if it is over the top! 

Ian

[SPE]

alright, I've read all this with interest, have an hf5 from gaps too
changed my pre filters recently and my product tds has risen from 15 to 30 also getting less pressure
bought my prefilters from gardeners threw the old ones away without a thought so could'nt put them back in. Question: is there much difference in performance between different brands of pre filters ? I have 2 10" housings. I  think I have a 5 micron pre sediment and a carbon coconut filter in that order, is that correct ?

tap supply 270 ppm
previous tds before filter change 15 and 60 psi with waste set to 50/50

after changing filters tds of 30, psi of 50

I'm puzzled  whats happened

ps. also when I have drain valve fully open I still get some pure being produced, is this normal ?
can I fit a tap inline on the pure supply and shut it off when flushing ie; drainage tap fully open , will this help flush the membrane more effectively or am I likely to damage it ?

thanks in advance of any advice 
Simon

[Ian_Giles]

Simon,

Yes to a small amount of pure being produced, you have good mains pressure so even with the drain tap open there is still enough pressure to get through the membrane to produce a little pure water.
Don't worry about that! It's normal, and you do not need to fit an extra tap to close off the pure feed.

I also had that problem with the pre-filters affecting the water pressure and causing a big reduction in output with an alarmingly raised TDS reading too!!!

Try removing the particulate filter from the housing, re-fit the housing and run the system again, I'm not a betting man, but if I was I'd bet that your pressure readings will be back to normal and your TDS readings will drop to - or close to - what you had before.

I've no idea why the particulate filter caused the problem, no idea either how many microns it was either, bought new ones from WCW, just the standard ones...god only knows what micron filter they are either, but it did the trick.

If you find the same as I did, contact Gardeners and tell them what happened, they are pretty good, and I'm sure they'll replace them for you.


Oh and don't run your system without having your particulate filter in place for too long!...those 4040 membranes are not cheap to replace if you ruin one!

Although I risked it as I needed water! No harm done as it happens, but as your dad may have said to you (often in my own case) "Don't do as I do, do as I tell you!"

I might take dumb-arse risks but it wouldn't be very professional of me to recommend others to do so



Ian

[C-N-C]

Hey ian
Thanks man...
Carnt belive that softner was the problem man
Iv filled my 1000ltr tank up & its still in 21ppm.......just hope it drops after a while as it took a few weeks to rise

20 minute flush gives me piece of mind...better safe than sorry...even if it is over the top!

I agree to ian.....

Thank you for your time mate...ya sound bud

Take care & kindest regards
Justin

P.S...i will post & bump this thread if ppm drop's lower than 21......

[C-N-C]

Hiya guy's....

do you know what puzzels me???

Simon said his tap tds is 270....mine is 550
he also say's his psi is 60........mine is 10
yet i was producing 14ppm & simon was producing 15ppm....EH!!!
surely one of us is wrong simon.....LOL

And then luther postes this simon & im sure steve has got a high tds & high psi??

As a 4040 reduces ppm by 98% so your ppm in of 550 should produce water out at 11 or so ppm. Changing pre filters generally doesn't change ppm reading just the longevity of the membrane. Can you manually adjust your valve to produce more waste and therefore reduce ppm reading?

And this is what steve said about his HF5,bought it same time as me..... :

I bought a HF5 at the same time. I have only got 20 psi but it is reading 20psi in both gauges. That's without a pump. Tds in around 300 out is about 17 can't get it any lower than that.

Can't understand though why only one gauge is reading the psi.

Steve

I'm not sure if my 40/40 is working or not now...lol....

Take care all
Kindest regards
Justin

[SPE]

Ian, thanks so much for that informed reply,
I had posted about this problem a few weeks ago but got no real answer or perhaps people just did'nt grasp what I was on about !
I am going to be off work for atleast the next week (knee op tomorrow) so will look into it further and may well ring gaps to order whatever pre- filters they suggest.
Thanks once again, glad to know that someone else on here
has encountered the same problem and has the answer, cheers 

Simon

[C-N-C]

Hiya simon mate....
Let us know how ya get on dude .....if that's okay man
You say 50/50 ratio simon,june from gap's told me not to worry about that,when the tds is lowest thats the happiest the membrain could be
Still Some guy's ian,in he? ;)could do with a few more like him

Good look with the op mate...after all we HF5 40/40 buddies.....

Take care mate & kind regards
Justin

[SPE]

Hiya simon mate....
Let us know how ya get on dude .....if that's okay man
You say 50/50 ratio simon,june from gap's told me not to worry about that,when the tds is lowest thats the happiest the membrain could be
Still Some guy's ian,in he? ;)could do with a few more like him

Good look with the op mate...after all we HF5 40/40 buddies.....

Take care mate & kind regards
Justin

cheers justin yeah you and june are right on the waste tap setting, only reason I whack it up a bit is because I'm in a flat and have no static tank so sometimes I need to fill as quickly as I can, on a 50/50 set up (before I changed the filters anyhow) I can fill my 650 tank in 3 hours.
 What Ian was saying makes sense with regards to the filters, was what I suspected too and was just after confirmation. I'll report back here when I've changed them and let ya know if theres improvement.
best of luck

Simon

[C-N-C]

Hiya simon m8
He's right AGAIN man.. 
I had same problem before,took them out & replaced them & boom water psi went up & ppm down

He's some guy' simon......

Let me know how it goes mate
Good luck & kind regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

hiya guy's
 gunna keep this thread as a record ov my ppm from 40/40 hf5 ro

Its now up to 25ppm
June from gap's said it SHOULD go back down after a bit,but seem's to be riseing even further

Kindest regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

out-26ppm
in-571ppm tap water
-25psi on gauges

[paul saunders]

According to those figures your membrane is approximately 96% efficient which is not bad really. Can you compare your TDS meter with anyone else's as your IN TDS sounds a little high.   

[C-N-C]

Hiya bbdl mate

Thanks for that 96% mate....now i know how efficient membrain is
I have a couple ov tds meter's man & they all the same reading....hartlepool,were i live is well known for realy hard water mate...so i think input is right man.......
Just cannot get my head round it was 14ppm @ first   AND RISEING

Thank you for that dude....ya sound man
Kindest regards
Justin

[SPE]

Hi cnc just an update, ordered new pre filters from gaps, alls back to normal, tds virtually halved back down to 18 ppm, and I'm happy with that, knees good too and back at work 
good luck mate hope you get sorted
simon

[C-N-C]

Hiya simon mate 
Glad to hear ya knee okay bud just be careful bending down to do the bottom ov them french/patio door's
Also ....nice 1 bud wid ya set up....im jelous
Iv changed my pre filters & its no diffrent man........i was gunna post a update...its shocking



yesterday came home dinner time to make water while i done the rest ov the day........

My output tds is now  35ppm :oi turned it straight off dude
When i got home after work,knackerd i was .......started messing around with drain etc to get a better tds......my psi was right below the norm......the gauge was up & down all the time & had to nealy close the drain to get the psi upseems like summit is blocking it

So now iv reversed everything simon.....so drain has tap water going in & tap inlet is now the drain.....im on scary ground mate @ the minute.....iv flushed it last night &
my tap ppm was 537 going in
coming out was 561.....eh!!!!

5 minutes later dropped to 541ppm coming out

i done this for a while(kept checking drain ppm)
It ended up 531 ppm from drain
Inlet water was 517 ppm
ALSO GAUGES RUNNING GOOD PSI ON BACKFLUSH...EVEN SECOND GAUGE REGISTERING

My last resort was to backflush system

Im not sure tho mate, if i shoud put a tap on drain & force water through membrain backwards or just let it flush openly as tho its just a nomal flush but backward's......if that makes any sense ??
I'v left it after flushing it for a bout a hour backwards last night......never set it back to normal yet & tested it....just wanted to c wot the guy's thought....cause im lost dude

Good to hear ya all sorted simon mate...send a lil bit of that good luck my way fella

anyway simon talk to ya later bud
Kindest regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

First gauge        (sediment)  10psi on backflush
Second gauge    (carbon)       5 psi on backflush

Water running through level & smooth on backflush....gauge not jumping around...had good flush...hour or so last night & bout half hour this morning...
Going to put it bck togethrer in a bit....let ya know the outcome guy's........

Kindest regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

All back together now

35ppm

Never done any good the backflush

ANY SUGGESTIONS GUY'S.........NEED HELP HERE FELLA'S

Going to try & take pre filter's out & put dem back in.....dont know why,but ran out of option's

Kindest regards
Justin
www.clean-n-clearwindows.co.uk

[C-N-C]

Hiya there
managed to get it down to 30 ppm...when it's left on a bit it  jumps bk to 35ppm


Not looking good this guy's........

Anyone know if i should ov restricted the drain on the backflush, to push tap water through membrain, or just the fully opened flush would do?

Any help appreciated fella's...........

Kindest regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

Shot da towel in....ran out of ideas

Take care
Justin

[Window Washers]

justin what is the waste to pure ratio ?

I have about 65 pure to 35 waste

I would be questioning the membrane it should last more than a couple of months even if you was shooting high tds into it.

some say 5050 or 4060 I have had mine over 2 years running this way and still it is 15 out unpumped, I know it needs replacing and had a replacement just want to see how long it last before I change it over. these low pressure membranes are all well and good if they last if not a booster pump and normal one can save a shed load of hassle.

if you anywhere near me bring your gear over and we can bang heads together and sort problem.

Ian

[C-N-C]

Hiya Ian mate
Thank you for ya post man......ya sound dude

justin what is the waste to pure ratio ?

Not to sure man,i was in the middle ov sorting it out when i first got system & asked gap's the correct ratio....they said dont realy matter!!!!  get your tds low as possible & the membrain will be the happiest,when it's producing the lowest tds....so i went with that mate....got it to 14ppm......i'm missing that figure ian man

I would be questioning the membrane it should last more than a couple of months even if you was shooting high tds into it.

I have phoned gaps ,but they say its because i havent flushed softner beads out enough.....only had it on system few weeks...surely carnt be that?? mind you mate tds was only 20 @ the time i phoned them & i took softner straight off then & its now 35 ishso probaly blame me for damage & fob me off man.....left a message anyway

if you anywhere near me bring your gear over and we can bang heads together and sort problem.

I'm in hartlepool ian mate.....thank you tho bud for the offer man...ya some guy dude

these low pressure membranes are all well and good if they last if not a booster pump and normal one can save a shed load of hassle.

Thought it was to good to be true....low psi & no booster pump....high tds, hard water

Starting to look like ya might be right bud

Thank you for ya time ian mate.....
system left now....havent got a clue wot to do for next week's water man
looks like bag ov resin a week @ the minute mate

Kindest regards & take care mate....& thanx fella
Justin

[Window Washers]

Hiya Ian mate
Thank you for ya post man......ya sound dude

justin what is the waste to pure ratio ?

Not to sure man,i was in the middle ov sorting it out when i first got system & asked gap's the correct ratio....they said dont realy matter!!!!  get your tds low as possible & the membrain will be the happiest,when it's producing the lowest tds....so i went with that mate....got it to 14ppm......i'm missing that figure ian man

I would be questioning the membrane it should last more than a couple of months even if you was shooting high tds into it.

I have phoned gaps ,but they say its because i havent flushed softner beads out enough.....only had it on system few weeks...surely carnt be that?? mind you mate tds was only 20 @ the time i phoned them & i took softner straight off then & its now 35 ishso probaly blame me for damage & fob me off man.....left a message anyway

if you anywhere near me bring your gear over and we can bang heads together and sort problem.

I'm in hartlepool ian mate.....thank you tho bud for the offer man...ya some guy dude

these low pressure membranes are all well and good if they last if not a booster pump and normal one can save a shed load of hassle.

Thought it was to good to be true....low psi & no booster pump....high tds, hard water

Starting to look like ya might be right bud

Thank you for ya time ian mate.....
system left now....havent got a clue wot to do for next week's water man
looks like bag ov resin a week @ the minute mate

Kindest regards & take care mate....& thanx fella
Justin

I would be asking for a replacement of membrane, for them to say as low tds as possible they are selling not helping water costs money, ask them for a new membrane m8 I would be kicking off by now, give them the option and post back, they could have a dodgy batch of membranes it hapens

[SPE]

Ian makes a good point Justin.
Otherwise, do you have friends or family with a higher psi on their supply that you could take your ro to and give it a try ? If you do and it improves, least then you know its a pump you need.
Hope you get it sorted
Simon

[C-N-C]

morning, Ian mate

I would be asking for a replacement of membrane, for them to say as low tds as possible they are selling not helping water costs money, ask them for a new membrane m8 I would be kicking off by now, give them the option and post back, they could have a dodgy batch of membranes it hapens
   

Yep!  yeah right mate...i wanna be asking them for a replacement,even if they tested it etc...
I have never known anyone to say that like bud,dont matter about ratio...
I'v phoned them yesterday...must ov bin closed,just the answer machine,i have left a message....unless they bin reading this thread & expecting me to call.....LOL
im going to have to fill tank etc with the 35 ppm to keep me going for a bit anyway & phone them first thing monday man

Thank you ian for ya help fella
I will post as soon as i speak to them monday,unless i can get a answer today!!!

Take care mate & kindest regards.....ya sound bud
Justin 


Hiya simon mate

Ian makes a good point Justin.
Otherwise, do you have friends or family with a higher psi on their supply that you could take your ro to and give it a try ? If you do and it improves, least then you know its a pump you need.
Hope you get it sorted
Simon

Yes,he's right man,in he!!!
i dont even know the psi ov anyone of my freinds or family man....
I think i might just wait until monday & fill tank with the 35ppm for now...probaly higher now...LOL
I have got a FULL, unopened bag ov resin on stand by simon mate.....just to polish it off to 000

Anyway i will post as soon as i hear out mate.......thank you dude

Hey big "THANK YOU" guy's for taking the time out to post....big up you guy's

Take care & kindest regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

Just had mail back from gaps-goes bit like this-



The one constant with all reverse osmosis membranes is that they are never
"faulty" it is always something to do with how being run so we just need to
get to the bottom of where you are going wrong but it may even be something
as simple as the water board dropping your pressure - I'll have a better
idea when you give us more information."

HMMMMM......never faulty ,eh!!

Iv sent all info & i will wait to see wot there reply is,let ya know guy's soon as i know

Take care
Justin

[C-N-C]

Hiya guy's
Well here it is,the reason why my new "low pressure" 40/40 HF5 is producing HIGH tds-
This the reason from GAP'S.....
My water psi to low..........EH!!! i thought this system was made for this??
I might have to add a booster pump now...can you belive it guy's on a low pressure system

FROM GAPS-

Well this is an easy one - your pressure is very low - at 40 psi the average
membrane will reject about 90% which would give you a tds of 52 ppm from 520
ppm at the tap so to get 33 ppm from 22 psi is actually very good - your
membrane is exceeding expectations.  Your product flow rate is quite low and
you only have a total of about 4 litres per minute passing through the
membrane so not only is your pressure exceptionally low so is your feed flow
rate...

You are pretty much running at the minimum pressure now - we couldn't
guarantee the performance with a pump as it depends on the pump and what you
are putting into the pump.   If you already have a pump from your merlin
there would be no harm in trying it short term to see how it improves tds
and flow.

The only other thing I can think of is to change the carbon block for a GAC
filter - these are not as effective at removing chlorine but there is less
pressure drop across it so it will give you a few more psi to improve the
tds.



So let this be a warning to any of you guy's with low psi...........ya still need high psi...even with a low pressure ro......if that makes sense......
I think it should be made clear about this, as i have spent a lot of time & money on this "low pressure" system to be told,MY PRESSURE TO LOW.....EH

UNBELIVEABLE.....i feel like i'v bin had guy's...... :

Thank you to ALL you guy's who bin postin & helping out were they can.......i appreciate it fella's.....YA SOUND

Take care all & kindest regards
Justin
www.clean-n-clearwindows.co.uk

[dd]

Sorry Justin but it does make sense that 20psi is not good for your performance.

I favour the 300gpd RO units because the water qaulity is just as good as from a 4040 unit. To me the advantage is as they produce water more slowly if you need to use a booster pump the flow rate (actual volume of water as opposed to psi) is not likey to be a problem.

300gpd RO is generally more than adequate for 1 man used with static system.

Good luck and best wishes, dd

[C-N-C]

Hiya DD mate..
Yeah,i know mate......
I knew it was to good to be true man...low psi...high tds........
Was never gunna work
Be intresting to c if anyone elese got  low psi with a 40/40 low pressure membrane & high tds....to see what result's they get
I was gunna buy a pump to push psi up a bit,when i asked GAP'S....they replied-

Under these circumstances we are reluctant
to recommend a pump as we are likely to be held accountable by yourselves
even though we will not be selling the pump. 

I think they got the hump...not a pump mate

All because i said this to them-

Also if the GAC filter will give less pressure drop,to improve the tds,wont
a booster pump do the same job, as that is improving psi ?
We think,maybe, they should be some kind of warning or minimum running psi
made clear before anyone invests & spends a lot of money,on this system.

WHAT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE TO ME BUD
They should make it clear the minimum pressure to use...as you pay MORE for a HF5 "low pressure" system : : : : :
Just wish i'd gone for the normal RO system mate......
Gunna post summit dd man,just to warn other folk with a low psi about this 40/40 RO...........

Thank you for your post dd & kind word's dude

Take care man

Justin

[dd]

I am not an expert but GAPS might think that even with a booster pump your flow rate will be too low (actual volume of water being pushed through membrane) to improve performance much. Probably worth talking to someone who knows more than me. (Thats why I prefer 300gpd unit as they require lower flow rate).

Good luck Justin

[C-N-C]

Hiya dd mate...
I think that's wot they are getting @......but no one informed me before i bought it man
I mean...why is it a low pressure membrane dd mate???
There's summit i'm missing here bud
I thought it would expel the need for a booster pump in low psi area's!!
it's Got my head up my backside dude

Wish i'd talked to someone who know's the score with membrane's before i bought it man : : : :

Lot of folk reccomended this tho bud!!!!

Thank you again DD mate...ya sound man

Kindest regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

Hiya guy's

So Now what!!! ???anyone know what i can do?

TDS higher now 37ppm & riseing

So a booster pump would probaly not work......so who uses these 40/40 system's??

& how do i get best performance from this system i'v bought,with a low tap pressure

100% cannot belive this fella's

Any help much appreciated......

Thank you & kind regards
Justin

[C-N-C]

Hiya ian mate......
Good to hear from ya man
Tried that,saying must be a faulty membrane,is all i got was "The one constant with all reverse osmosis membranes is that they are never
"faulty" it is always something to do with how being run"

Also " I think it unfair to blame our company when under the circumstances the
equipment is coping very well.  The fact that it used to be better can be
due to two things either your feed pressure has dropped or you damaged your
membranes when incorrectly using a water softener but going off your figures
it looks more likely that your pressure has dropped in either scenario we
can hardly be held accountable.  Under these circumstances we are reluctant
to recommend a pump as we are likely to be held accountable by yourselves
even though we will not be selling the pump. 
Yeah,right :
Dont think they gunna do out mate...being fobbed off by GAPS........
£700, i spent in 2 minutes ian mate & they not intrested man
Got me coin now bud,havent they
I added softner man,just for a couple of weeks...it's been off system for a few week's now mate....& i will get a booster pump ian......
Cannot belive that...they tell me to get a GAC filter instead ov carbon as it will let more water through & raise psi.....wont a booster pump do that...... :
When i said that they never answered back man.....
Strange man...what can i do if they refuse to replace membrane ian??? probaly nawt man

Will keep posting fella with updates....LOL
So ian...you think even with this low psi the system should be working better???

Thank you again for ya post's man & ya help mate

Take care man & kindest regards
Justin

[Window Washers]

Hiya ian mate......
Good to hear from ya man
Tried that,saying must be a faulty membrane,is all i got was "The one constant with all reverse osmosis membranes is that they are never
"faulty" it is always something to do with how being run"

Also " I think it unfair to blame our company when under the circumstances the
equipment is coping very well.  The fact that it used to be better can be
due to two things either your feed pressure has dropped or you damaged your
membranes when incorrectly using a water softener but going off your figures
it looks more likely that your pressure has dropped in either scenario we
can hardly be held accountable.  Under these circumstances we are reluctant
to recommend a pump as we are likely to be held accountable by yourselves
even though we will not be selling the pump. 
Yeah,right :
Dont think they gunna do out mate...being fobbed off by GAPS........
£700, i spent in 2 minutes ian mate & they not intrested man
Got me coin now bud,havent they
I added softner man,just for a couple of weeks...it's been off system for a few week's now mate....& i will get a booster pump ian......
Cannot belive that...they tell me to get a GAC filter instead ov carbon as it will let more water through & raise psi.....wont a booster pump do that...... :
When i said that they never answered back man.....
Strange man...what can i do if they refuse to replace membrane ian??? probaly nawt man

Will keep posting fella with updates....LOL
So ian...you think even with this low psi the system should be working better???

Thank you again for ya post's man & ya help mate

Take care man & kindest regards
Justin

Justin I am just reading over the post quick, but if (I will under line IF) item is not working as said and is not fit for purpuse I would state my rights as a consumer, and give them a simple choice play ball and sort it, or play hard ball and it will cost them, now I cant say what I would do as I have not read in detail every post and problem you have had, I read snip its and post from them. I would be well p'd should I have been sold something that is not working correctly, more so if said person said about a softner. give me a call tomorrow if you want and can try and help either way.

Ian

[craig21t]

If you look at the picture I have attached you can see the basic specs of the hf5 membrane family. You are running exceptionally low water pressure and possibly flow. Optimum pressure for the hf5 family of membranes is 80psi plus so you are well below this. If you install a booster pump to increase the pressure this will help, but if your flow rate is low you may induce cavitation in your pipework. Really speaking you should install a break tank in this case. Personally I would contact your waterboard about the problem of your low pressure/flow as they may be able to help as it is exceptionally low. Ro membranes rely on pressure, not just to make water but to dispense of waste products during operation. Your tds reading will continue to rise while you use the ro because you do not have sufficient water pressure/flow and the membrane element cannot cope with this. In practise most people do not have 80+psi from their tap, but the hf5 membranes have a much better chance of working at low pressures than some of the other membrane families. The hf5 will happily work on tap pressures of 45psi + with regular flushing, but life of the membrane would be reduced at this pressure. If you stated to the company that you bought the system off, the water pressure you had and they suggested this membrane then you may have a case, but if you just said you have low water pressure you may not.  My personal suggestion would be either buy a smaller ro unit, like a 300 or 450gpd that runs 1/4" pipework and run a booster pump designed for that ro, or get a high flow/pressure pump but you would probably need to install a break tank. Hope this helps.

[dd]

80psi is actually quite high pressure. My 300gpd unit reduces tds from 200 to 004 with 55psi.

I think the case would hinge on whether Justin told Gaps about his low pressure problems and whether they gave him unrealistic expectations when making the sale.

Having a break/resevoir tank is an option but i am guessing it would have to be a large one, 1000 litres or more to keep up with the supply needed for the RO.

[C-N-C]

Hiya ian mate......
Good to hear from ya man
Tried that,saying must be a faulty membrane,is all i got was "The one constant with all reverse osmosis membranes is that they are never
"faulty" it is always something to do with how being run"

Also " I think it unfair to blame our company when under the circumstances the
equipment is coping very well.  The fact that it used to be better can be
due to two things either your feed pressure has dropped or you damaged your
membranes when incorrectly using a water softener but going off your figures
it looks more likely that your pressure has dropped in either scenario we
can hardly be held accountable.  Under these circumstances we are reluctant
to recommend a pump as we are likely to be held accountable by yourselves
even though we will not be selling the pump. 
Yeah,right :
Dont think they gunna do out mate...being fobbed off by GAPS........
£700, i spent in 2 minutes ian mate & they not intrested man
Got me coin now bud,havent they
I added softner man,just for a couple of weeks...it's been off system for a few week's now mate....& i will get a booster pump ian......
Cannot belive that...they tell me to get a GAC filter instead ov carbon as it will let more water through & raise psi.....wont a booster pump do that...... :
When i said that they never answered back man.....
Strange man...what can i do if they refuse to replace membrane ian??? probaly nawt man

Will keep posting fella with updates....LOL
So ian...you think even with this low psi the system should be working better???

Thank you again for ya post's man & ya help mate

Take care man & kindest regards
Justin

Justin I am just reading over the post quick, but if (I will under line IF) item is not working as said and is not fit for purpuse I would state my rights as a consumer, and give them a simple choice play ball and sort it, or play hard ball and it will cost them, now I cant say what I would do as I have not read in detail every post and problem you have had, I read snip its and post from them. I would be well p'd should I have been sold something that is not working correctly, more so if said person said about a softner. give me a call tomorrow if you want and can try and help either way.

Ian

Hey ian mate.....
Thank you for that man....going also off what craig said......it is about the pressure man,
going to phone GAPS to see if they will refund or even credit note....doubt it tho man :
I told them i wasnt blameing them(by e-mail)as i was going to buy 40/40 anyway.....that's there back's covered  : : :
Idid tell them on phone my psi,but that no good,should of been by mail :
Will get back to ya ian mate,if that's okay...just gunna have a read ov this craig sent
Thank you for all ya time bud....

Kindest regards
Justin 

Hiya craig mate
Thank you for that man....wish i'd knew that before i bought this man.......do you want to buy a 40/40....

So it looks like iv just wasted a lot of time & money.....GUTTED
I dont know nothing about how to add a break tank etc....
Your post has shed a lot of light on the subject craig mate......thank you man
Basicly i need to sell this system........

Big thank you again for your time bud

Take care & kindest regards
Justin


Hiya dd man

I think the case would hinge on whether Justin told Gaps about his low pressure problems and whether they gave him unrealistic expectations when making the sale.

I never mentioned it man.......
& it does make sense what craig is saying dd :

Having a break/resevoir tank is an option but i am guessing it would have to be a large one, 1000 litres or more to keep up with the supply needed for the RO

Wouldnt even know were to start dd man

I think the best thing is to sell this & get a normal ro with a booster,if GAPS are not intrested....i know they not bothered.....they got the money now

Just cannot belive the situation's i get myself into guy's

Right im going to phone gaps in a bit....wasteing more money on phone

Thank you for all ya help guy's......ya sound

I will post back...
Take care
Justin

[Rob Smith]

I would be inclined to tell them about this thread on this forum. This is not good advertising for them. 

[C-N-C]

That's it man...ya right tho rob

Just bin back onto them for refund or credit note.......NO CHANCE!!!!!

Game over & im by myself man...
They not intrested mate......

Thankx tho fella

Take care & kindest regards
Justin