[Suffolkcleaners]

Hi,im new to this site and have been cleaning windows for over 13 years using traditional methods and never had a problem. Although i have to say ive never actually tried wfp so cant knock what i havent tried. My work is mainly domestic and cant actually see the point in using wfp. I work about 25 hrs per week (30 max) and earn a good living. Also if using traditional methods it also keeps you physically fit. I personally think traditional is great for domestic and wfp for commercial and maybe some awkward windows. Any comments would be great and glad to be a newbie on the site. 

[windowwashers]

Hi,im new to this site and have been cleaning windows for over 13 years using traditional methods and never had a problem. Although i have to say ive never actually tried wfp so cant knock what i havent tried. My work is mainly domestic and cant actually see the point in using wfp. I work about 25 hrs per week (30 max) and earn a good living. Also if using traditional methods it also keeps you physically fit. I personally think traditional is great for domestic and wfp for commercial and maybe some awkward windows. Any comments would be great and glad to be a newbie on the site. 

firstly welcome to CIU 

I have mainly domestics and changed to wfp last year. wfp gets you toned and fit same as trad you just dont have to walk as many steps each day to do it.

I am not going to try and convert you over to wfp thats up to you. I did it and would not go back to ladders I like being with 2 feet on the floor.

As way with any questions you have most questions can be answered.

best wishes

Ian Wicks

[Stephen Dwyer]

I work using the traditional methods and for the most part I don't have a problem with it.  My work is almost completly domestic though so maybe if I was to do more commercial stuff then I would start to question the traditional approach a bit more.  The only thing I sometimes have an issue with is if a house has awkward windows that are too high of above a large slant.  I suppose if I used a wfp these windows would no longer be a problem but I don't know how some of my customers would react if I was to abandon traditional methods and go over to 100% wfp.   

[Xline Systems]

hi stephen. i think if you asked most people who made the change ide say 99% of people would say it went well. its scary at first but if you have a cood relationship with your custys then they would be willing to give it a go. and with the right training you cant go wrong, we switched onto wfp nearly 5 years ago now and wish we had done it sooner. when we switched 99% of our workload was domestic.

[windowwashers]

I work using the traditional methods and for the most part I don't have a problem with it.  My work is almost completly domestic though so maybe if I was to do more commercial stuff then I would start to question the traditional approach a bit more.  The only thing I sometimes have an issue with is if a house has awkward windows that are too high of above a large slant.  I suppose if I used a wfp these windows would no longer be a problem but I don't know how some of my customers would react if I was to abandon traditional methods and go over to 100% wfp.   

the answer would be very few would complain, I changed all work to wfp last year, I got a few canceled but overall went smothly, I am not trying to talk you into changing I am guerss pointing out the the change over is alot easier than some like to say, I did not give letters to every customer (was not asking for trouble and questions) if anyone asks I say it is safer for me and the guys (most are happy with that answer) the ones that are not I replace.

Nothing wrong with trad at all, but wfp is faster overall.

Ian

[TennetClean]

If your working trad near where I live you may want to re-think your work practices.

I am starting a crusade to report ladder monkeys to the health and safety bods.

THE LAW IS COMING,

you have been warned.

[bluefrog]

OH Mate hope your only joking about reporting people for using ladders

[TennetClean]

OH Mate hope your only joking about reporting people for using ladders

NOPE!

[Sanity]

Traditional and WFP are both just tools to be used.  They both have their uses (I would like to see anyone clean 20 ft internal shop windows without a ladder...) and a good WC'er should be able to use both proficiently.

[Ian W]

Tennet, why do you say you are reporting 'ladder monkeys'? It isn't against the law yet! 

[TennetClean]

Tennet, why do you say you are reporting 'ladder monkeys'? It isn't against the law yet!

OH yes it is.  You're just lucky there arent too many H&S inspectors wandering about in the suburbs

Until i start reporting that is.  I will also be taking photos

WHY report the ladder monkeys?  Because theyre breaking the law.  Its my civic duty to report them, it is also my duty to then take their nice juicy contracts when they get done.

Alls fair in business

[Pat Purcell]

What a low-life scum-bag :

[TennetClean]

What a low-life scum-bag

It is them that are breaking the law.

I mean, have they no honour? Ha ha.

LOL I see it as my duty to help uphold the law.  It is also my duty to take their contracts.

I've said it before and i'll say it again.  If you cant afford waterfed pole, then dont become a window cleaner.  Especially if you work near me cos I WILL report any ladder monkeys I see.

Smile for the camera now.

[Ian W]

Tennet, why do you say you are reporting 'ladder monkeys'? It isn't against the law yet!

OH yes it is.

OH NO, it isn't. (and it isn't even panto season yet...)

[paul hughes31]

ive come across wc like you a few times whilst i have been doing the job (ill take all there work) scum, in my experience window cleaners should stick together and help each other out whatever method they choose....  oh and by the way ladders are not illegal...

[TennetClean]

in my experience window cleaners should stick together

LOL righto.

You stick together with other window cleaners then mate, I'll be doing the contracts that you wont be getting on ladders.  LOL

[paul hughes31]

i forgot to mention i do both methods, and them wc i have met in the past dont do the job anymore because i have it all...

[cooper]

Hello TennetClean.

Think it will be me doing the reporting

of u being caught in a compromising  position with one of ur elderly

customers...think on tosser !!

[stig]

 

[WCE]

Hello TennetClean.

Think it will be me doing the reporting

of u being caught in a compromising  position with one of ur elderly

customers...think on tosser !!

Tuppence clean - Making fans as usual!

[Stephen Dwyer]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken? 

[TennetClean]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken?

I don't mind at all matey.

Basically these 2 things:

If I see somebody using ladders to clean a window that would be possible to with WFP, then that is breaking the law and I will report them.

SECONDLY If I see a window cleaner using ladders without a ladder clamp, somebody footing then that is also breaking the law.

Its pretty straightforward really.  I will be taking pictures and taking van registrations.

All in the name of civic duty.

So take my advice, if you are a ladder monkey, then stop now before I or someone like me reports you.

[kris martin]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken?

you really are a low life dirty piece of crap and i wouldnt spit on you if you were on fire....

there should be a vote to vote you off the site..

I don't mind at all matey.

Basically these 2 things:

If I see somebody using ladders to clean a window that would be possible to with WFP, then that is breaking the law and I will report them.

SECONDLY If I see a window cleaner using ladders without a ladder clamp, somebody footing then that is also breaking the law.

Its pretty straightforward really.  I will be taking pictures and taking van registrations.

All in the name of civic duty.

So take my advice, if you are a ladder monkey, then stop now before I or someone like me reports you.

[WCE]

If you don't mind me asking TennetClean what would you actually classify as a "ladder monkey" ?  What kind of rules would you be looking out for that may be being broken?

I don't mind at all matey.

Basically these 2 things:

If I see somebody using ladders to clean a window that would be possible to with WFP, then that is breaking the law and I will report them.

SECONDLY If I see a window cleaner using ladders without a ladder clamp, somebody footing then that is also breaking the law.

Its pretty straightforward really.  I will be taking pictures and taking van registrations.

All in the name of civic duty.

So take my advice, if you are a ladder monkey, then stop now before I or someone like me reports you.

The point is you say ladder work is against the law. Show me the legislation that outlaws ladder work. It is true that the working at height directive (WAHD) discourages it but it certainly does not outlaw it. Also what about companies or sole traders? There is a difference and the rules are different. How are you going to separate the two? Something that is a breach of regulations for a company may not be so for a sole trader. Have you considered this? What worries me is that several people have told you now that the use of ladders is not illegal and you still haven't got the point. maybe your grasp of H&S isn't as good as you think. Ladder use cant be made illegal because the simple fact is the WAHD covers more than window cleaning (you can't lay roof tiles with a pole or from the ground). The WAHD also says that working at height should be avoided where reasonably possible. This statement is deliberately vague. Reasonably could mean that if works are for short duration then it may not be economically viable to provide the a different system of working (in this case WFP).  I just thought I would point this out to you (not that it matters to me i'm WFP).

I see you are still making friends! I would think about what you are doing/saying making this many enemies there is a danger that people will start to ignore you.   

Its pretty straightforward really.

Really. If that's the case how come you've got it so wrong?

[paul hughes31]

one of my customers works for health and satfety and is sorting out documents for my  contracts and says that your full of poop....... ladders are not illegal.... obviously there are circumstances to how you can climb a ladder but i wonder why he hasnt reported me....

[poleman]

Chaps! have you not got it yet! dont take the bait! he is playing with you!

Its his bit of entertainment for the evening! dont feed his fire

[WCE]

Chaps! have you not got it yet! dont take the bait! he is playing with you!

Its his bit of entertainment for the evening! dont feed his fire

That is so true! I am sure he just posts things to wind people up. I tend to ignore his comments however the abuse he was getting on this thread was so funny that it had me in stitches! I thought I would post a reply to him because it would seem he thinks that he  knows better than everyone else and is always quick to correct anyone else that he thinks is wrong. I just thought I would point out that he is wrong on this one and that he should listen to the majority of posters on this thread who were telling him he is incorrect.  I also think as I said above that if he keeps posting just to wind people up, when he does actually have something useful to say he will find he is ignored. This forum is about discussion and helping people with their cleaning problems. Posts to wind people up are just wasting everybodies time and just lower the quality of the whole forum. A few people have mentioned that some of the old hands of the forum (who use to give great advice) have disappeared. Could that because they are fed up with pointless crap like this. If like wc said you don't take the bait and ignore him he will get fed up with it. Maybe then he will contribute something useful

[TennetClean]

WCE you are some amount of hilarious, I cant wait to see this magazine.

It is true that the working at height directive (WAHD) discourages it but it certainly does not outlaw it

Regulations dont "encourage" anything.  They either allow something or they dont.  There's no encouragement matey.

The work at height regulations say that if its possible to do a job from the ground THEN IT MUST BE DONE THAT WAY.  theres no ifs or buts, its that simple.  Guess what, using waterfed pole avoids the need to work at height, ergo if you are using ladders to clean a window that could have been done with WFP your breaking the law.

ALSO even if you do use ladders it plainly says you have to either use a ladder clamp or what it calls "stability device" or get someone to foot it.  So even if you somehow think you can get away with using ladders for pole-able windows (which you cant) you better be using one of these super-time consuming devices or get someone to foot them otherwise you are still breaking the law.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but just because most people on here think it aint against the law doesnt make them right.  Also, I think you wish that I was only posting to wind people up, WRONG I am deadly serious.

one of my customers works for health and satfety

Your customer "works for health and safety" what a cool job title. Something tells me he knows as little about the work at height regs as you do.

But anyway, theres no need to argue about all this, all will become clear after I report the first monkey.  I have been having some trouble finding them lately, but its only a matter of time.  Who knows, "it could be YOU."

Out of interest WCE, if you are going to be producing a magazine, should you not be encouraging the safest means possible instead of trying to promote dangerous and illegal practices?

[poleman]

www.videojug.com/film/how-to-behave-on-an-internet-forum

[RPCCS]

I have a friend who works for the hse and has given me copies of the "work at height regulations" which do not declare ladders illegal.So he can waste photos if he wants as no action will be taken by hse.They willonly take action if the ladders are being used in a dangerous manner.

[WCE]

WCE  I cant wait to see this magazine.

Your not the only one! What has this got to do with the thread?

It is true that the working at height directive (WAHD) discourages it but it certainly does not outlaw it

Regulations dont "encourage" anything.  They either allow something or they dont.  There's no encouragement matey.

I never said that they did encourage anything, the point is they didn't forbid ladder work.

The work at height regulations say that if its possible to do a job from the ground THEN IT MUST BE DONE THAT WAY.  theres no ifs or buts, its that simple.  Guess what, using waterfed pole avoids the need to work at height, ergo if you are using ladders to clean a window that could have been done with WFP your breaking the law.

The point you are missing is that even if a window can be cleaned using WFP there are other factors that come into it. As I said if you can prove that any risk can be reduced to an acceptable level and the work taking place is of short duration then the costs of WFP might be considered not to be viable on cost grounds. A risk assessment of the property would tell you if this is the case. Also don't turn round and say that if you are a window cleaner then  you should be able to afford WFP because that has nothing to do with it. If that was the case then every time your saw sky being installed the engineer would use a cherry picker to put up the satellite dish.

[TennetClean]

ok, i can see we're never going to agree about whether ladder window cleaners are breaking the law by not using WFP, and the only way to settle that for sure is to report one and see what happens.  Leave that to me 

BUT answer me this:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

if you get this wrong then everything else you say can safely be disgarded as it will be obvious you do not know what your talking about and are simply out to appease ladder monkeys.

[AuRavelling79]

Strange you've not seen any ladder using window cleaners to report since April 26th, eh Tuppence me old china?

I'd love you to report a ladder user - I reckon it'll get about as much response as reporting a lost tenner to the Police ...

But hey, I'm sure you'll see one to report soon and tell us what happens.

I am seriously interested in the response you get. I'm ordering popcorn in keen anticipation ... 

[jonah]

ok, i can see we're never going to agree about whether ladder window cleaners are breaking the law by not using WFP, and the only way to settle that for sure is to report one and see what happens.  Leave that to me 

BUT answer me this:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

if you get this wrong then everything else you say can safely be disgarded as it will be obvious you do not know what your talking about and are simply out to appease ladder monkeys.

Tennetclean we feel your pain , and we are all here to help , so just let go of the anger . . . . . . Feeling any better ?  calling somone a monkey is a negative statement !  You dont like laddders , do you ?  A ladder is an instrument to raise yourself higher isnt it ?  You are investing in the most high tech system that money can buy ? You dont understand why others are still employing ladders ? They are climbing up and looking down on you ! How dare they look down on you !

[macleod]

I have 'lost' quite a few local commercial contracts.
not because of anything I have done but becasue window cleaners (typically ladder users - no offence meant) on other sites have fallen off, or injured themselves (or worse) or not followed the WAHD as interupted by the company Director responsible for H&S.
when a H&S issue is brought to the attention of a Director (and not your mate who gave you the contract in the first place) the result is that the whole window cleaning goes for a national contract tender or some such solution.
I am small fry and cannot then tender for large national contracts, so what happens?
the person who 'wins' the national contract then subs it out locally for a fraction to a local window cleaner with a wfp.
so who wins? not me. not the ladder boys. only the larger contractors.
my opinion is this. if you want to be a window cleaner and only use ladders then stick to domestic and get rid of your commercial work.
right or wrong ladder boys will over time lose any decent commercial work they have, and at the same time they will lose any decent commercial work the rest of us have too.
on the site we are mostly small business and often comercial customers will put trust in larger contract cleaning companies when it comes to H&S
as i say right or wrong window cleaning has two very seperate specialist areas, Domestic & Commercial.
so i can understand the frustrations mentioned by TennetClean (and many others) and have felt the same way when i see the use of ladders on commercial sites, because it takes just one mistake to have a fall or be seen to operate a ladder in an unsafe manner (and it may be no fault of the very experienced window cleaner) and not only do they lose the comercial contract but it can have a ripple effect for all of us.

hope this is taken the right way, its not a pop at ladders but just a thought...

[TennetClean]

WCE?  You have gone quiet.

Could it be that this is a question you are unwilling to answer??

Let me ask it again:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

[cooper]

as  i recall you  once too  was a ladder monkey

 but now youve evolved...but what into is the question 

[WCE]

WCE?  You have gone quiet.

Could it be that this is a question you are unwilling to answer??

Let me ask it again:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

I am not unwilling to answer anything! The I think personally if you are using ladders then steps should be taken to reduce the risks of a ladder fall. The WAHD  says  "Dutyholders must avoid work at height where they can (before you start  getting excited, as i explained earlier this isn't as clear cut as it sounds and WFP  or a cherry picker maybe considered not to be viable on cost grounds. Thats part of the risk assessment stage and if you can prove that the risks have been reduced to an acceptable level then you could still use a ladder. However the same directive also states that you must have some measures in place to reduce the risk of fall. The thing is you were originally saying that ladders were outlawed, they are not. Now you are asking a different question. Are they breaking the law ? In my case I know that my risk assessment says that if a ladder is used then a stability device must be used. If I had an accident and hurt someone or someone working for me was injured after falling from a ladder that was had no form of  stability device then the HSE would have a field day as I have shown in the risk assessment that I could of reduced the risks easily and I ignored it. I suppose you would also be in trouble if you have no risk assessment or method statement . How could you show that you've attempted to reduce risks without them?  I hope that makes sense.
 My question to you Tuppence is what if you see someone using WFP in a dangerous manner will you report them too?

I cant wait to see this magazine.

OK! OK! I can see your excited you dont have to keep on about it. When it's out I will let you know!       

[TennetClean]

In answer to your question, YES i would report anybody using poles dangerously or illegally (though I dont think there are any laws about using poles yet), just the same, and I would also take their contracts if they got done.  ALSO even if someone used poles I would say to a building owner "Are they trained to use that equipment?" and then present my own certificate from the British Window Cleaning Academy.

You still haven't answered the question.

This is nothing to do with risk assessment at all.  The regulations plainly say what is required EVERY time you use a ladder, no matter what risk assessment is done.

SO again, and may I say, this is a simple yes or no answer, lets see if you actually manage to answer it this time:

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.

IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?

[WCE]

In answer to your question, YES i would report anybody using poles dangerously or illegally (though I dont think there are any laws about using poles yet)

I didn't mention any laws. But here is an example of the bad practice i mean www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=51686.0  I assume that you would report this guy? (There is clearly a risk to the public with his actions).

This is nothing to do with risk assessment at all.

But  it does. As I said a particular method can be excluded for many reasons (cost grounds being one) See I would have difficulty arguing that it was OK for me to use a ladder for a window that could be cleaned WFP as I have all the right equipment. However a trad only guy could argue that it is not worth them investing in say £3000 worth of kit to clean a £10.00 house. However it does not make them exempt from reducing the risk to a minimum. They should be using controls to reduce risk.  Ladder work is not illegal that was what you said initially.  Now you seem to have accepted that is the case we will move on.

A window cleaner using ladders without a ladder stability device and without someone footing the ladder.
IS HE BREAKING THE LAW?[/b]

Technically, Yes. But how enforced is it? I mean there are many laws that are not enforced fully.  Look at cannabis. The law states that is illegal to have it on your person and it is an arrestable offence (even as a class C drug). However the most you are likely to get is an informal street caution for simple posession. The police simply don't want to waste their time on small fry. What is to say that the HSE won't take the same view of a sole trader window cleaner using a ladder that way. A large national company well their view might be different but it could be that the HSE will turn a blind eye (right or wrong) on such a breach from the solo window cleaner due to the amount of work & time that it would take to bring a prosecution. I don't know if that is the case or not but it is perfectly plausible that they could take this view. I guess you will be able to answer that question when you actually get to report someone, I will await the results with interest.
   

[TennetClean]

WCE, I think your answer is very revealing.

Firstly you are unwilling to answer the question at all.

Then you dodge around the question with stuff about risk assessments that is not relevant,

Then finally after much badgering by me, you do actually answer the question but word it in such a way that you give the impression that you don't think window cleaners need to bother obeying the law!!

ie "Technically" yes they are breaking the law.  LOL!  Theres no 'technically' about it.  They are breaking the law, simple.

Then immediatley you go on about 'how enforced is it?' etc, saying that in all likelihood the bods in charge will turn a blind eye.  WRONG. it IS against the law (as you have finally admitted) and I will be reporting people for it.

LOL no offense mate, but you're practically encouraging people to break the law and work dangerously.  How will you feel if someone reads your advice, takes it on board then gets prosecuted for not using a ladder clamp?  Or worse, kills themselves in an accident?  Whether it is enforced or not is not the point. 

By saying what you've said, it is pretty obvious that you are not bothered about the facts at all, and are more bothered about not upsetting ladder users.

However, all that aside, well done on FINALLY answering the question, though it was a bit like pulling teeth.

PS that pole guy yes i would report him because he is working at height.  Using a pole is not against the law, even in a busy street, unless you are disrupting traffic without permission.

[WCE]

Then immediatley you go on about 'how enforced is it?' etc, saying that in all likelihood the bods in charge will turn a blind eye.  WRONG. it IS against the law (as you have finally admitted) and I will be reporting people for it.

LOL no offense mate, but you're practically encouraging people to break the law and work dangerously.  How will you feel if someone reads your advice, takes it on board then gets prosecuted for not using a ladder clamp?  Or worse, kills themselves in an accident?  Whether it is enforced or not is not the point

I am not encouraging anything. Where did I in my posts say "Don't use ladder clamps you'll be fine" Actually I agreed with you  and then went on to say BUT how enforced is it? That is a subject for debate. At no point did I say that they wouldn't take an interest but at the end of the day H&S covers more than window cleaning and there are many breaches of health and safety laws everyday. Do you realise how much manpower even a simple prosecution uses? The paperwork alone is significant. If the HSE acted on every single breach they would have to have a workforce of thousands and the costs to the government would be massive (well above any budget they have now). In an ideal world this situation wouldn't exist and the HSE would act on every breach and prosecute everyone who broke the rules but in reality, they have to prioritize their efforts just like the police. A crime is a crime but it someone steals your bike the police  will give you a crime number and take some details over the phone. Most of the time you are lucky if they even visit the crime scene. But if someone is murdered then the police will put many officers etc onto the case and they will devote years sometimes to finding the criminal and bringing him to justice. The whole reason my bike gets next to no attention is because they don't have the resources to devote to finding it because there are to many crimes that they have deemed to be more serious and must take the priority. So I wasn't saying "break the law it's fine. Don't  use a ladder clamp you'll be fine" I was saying (for the above reasons) that the HSE MIGHT not be interested in bringing a prosecution against every breach and that maybe they would consider it a minor breach and that an informal warning is OK. They may be interested in big companies and repeat offenders but for a first offence where a WC is using a ladder without clamps then  do you really think it will get further than warning? I will be interested when you do finally report someone. I hope that you will report back on what action was taken and then I will know (although I do have my prediction) for sure. The other thing is have you considered that if the WC/S do just get a warning then they will     take the advice on being compliant with WAHD and then they can go and get the clamp or whatever and work safe in the knowledge that they are now complying with the regulations. The property owner is likely to of got wind of what has happened and that the contractor wasn't fully compliant with the regulations but that they now are. Then you come along to offer your service and what can you offer thats different?  Instead of creating an advantage for yourself you have actually helped bring your rivals back to level pegging. If you are so intent on taking these contracts would it not be better to just canvass the properties and sell the benefits of WFP?

PS that pole guy yes i would report him

 
 Forgetting the stepladder for a second (imagine he is stood on the ground),  I actually know him (and he is an idiot!) and know the exact location he his cleaning (I did the build cleans on the whole estate and have customers next door) It is on a busy main road through the estate and is also the main route to the local primary school. The guy has no warning signs, has he considered the danger to others? No. This is a breach in health and safety regulations in itself. What if he dropped his pole on a childs head?  How would you feel if that was your kid? He has taken no steps to reduce the potential danger. If you are working in public areas the very least you should have are signs warning of the overhead working. What's to stop a "ladder monkey" seeing you in this situation and reporting you. If you are working in a street and the HSE officer comes along and sees you working without any control methods in place do you think he will ignore that because he is on a crusade to track down the "ladder monkeys". If he thinks you are breaching regulations in such a way to  endanger the public then they may well prosecute you (do you have risk assessments for each property? What about a method statement?)

Using a pole is not against the law, even in a busy street.

Quite right, using a pole is not against the law but just because you are using  WFP and complying with WAHD you can't ignore all the other regulations. The actual pole isn't illegal but the way you operate with it could be.
You keep going on about your your BWCA training. Which course did you do? Did it cover H&S?
         

[BURNA]

I read this forum quite a bit and as a result, have tried WFP for the first time today.

At first, i found this thread quite helpful, but as usual, as i find in most internet forums, there is always 1 total numpty (in this instance...TennetClean) who posts utter poope and turns it into a pointless thread.

I'd like to post about the initial problems i encountered and would have liked to ask for some advice, but don't think i'll bother....


Cheers

[elite mike]

I read this forum quite a bit and as a result, have tried WFP for the first time today.

At first, i found this thread quite helpful, but as usual, as i find in most internet forums, there is always 1 total numpty (in this instance...TennetClean) who posts utter poope and turns it into a pointless thread.

I'd like to post about the initial problems i encountered and would have liked to ask for some advice, but don't think i'll bother....


Cheers

hi burna

take no notice ,please post as most will give you good advice

mike

[BURNA]

Cheers Mike, don't worry mate, i'm used to people like him. Just fishing between Internet Porn sessions probably.

Anyway...tried WFP today (Me and me Dad), just a practice run really on his house, we've got a Tucker Pole and Brush with a Sureflo backpack on a trolley (cheapest option to give it a trial)

His house is a 3 bed semi, we seemed to use around 17 litres to do it all (backpack nearly empty) i've searched around here tonight and it seems approx 80 litres an hour non stop is normal. I agree there as it took approx 15 mins to do his house. We cleaned frames first then glass. Wouldn't have taken much longer to do it Trad, but it was our first stab at WFP...

BUT, my main concern was the watermarks that were still left, even with a reading of 0.01 in the meter (274 pre DI, we use a vertical DI tank with 25kg of resin in it.) We even went over the house again and there were still the watermarks here and there where the spotting had dried. Theres no way i could walk away from a domestic job the way this trial went and expect no complaints.

Bearing in mind, the windows hadn't been cleaned for 5-6 months i should think, and the frames would have been dirty as me Dad has done them now and again trad. Me Dad is was on windows for donkeys years and gave me his round 10 years ago so we both know whats what when it comes to window cleaning.

Basically, i'm looking for a bit of advice and a few questions answered please.

Like is there a certain knack or technique to WFP to reduce watermarks?

Is Purified water supposed eliminate watermarks completely?

Is 80 litres of water used per hour approx the right amout to be getting through?

Cheers in advance.

[poleman]

In short, it will take time and I learned the hard way and did lost customers, luckly not to many, that was a first clean you done and some times it takes 2 cleans to get a good finish, you can help your self by making sure you clean all your frames before the move over to WFP and DONT use wash up liq as thats a night mare to get of the windows with a WFP

[sjm]

In short, it will take time and I learned the hard way and did lost customers, luckly not to many, that was a first clean you done and some times it takes 2 cleans to get a good finish, you can help your self by making sure you clean all your frames before the move over to WFP and DONT use wash up liq as thats a night mare to get of the windows with a WFP

Good advice that  Thats what im doing now 

[sherco]

I work a lot on construction sites, not window cleaning and i ask the site HSE officer if its against the law to use a ladder, and he said that if you are doing a job on a ladder that lasts more than 15mins then yes you need to change the way the job is done, but if your up and down a ladder cleaning windows its not against the law but HSE recommend save working practises of working with ladders.

[Jimmywidge]

If your working trad near where I live you may want to re-think your work practices.

I am starting a crusade to report ladder monkeys to the health and safety bods.

THE LAW IS COMING,

You wanna spend more time working and less time worrying about what others are doing -
you have been warned.

In short, it will take time and I learned the hard way and did lost customers, luckly not to many, that was a first clean you done and some times it takes 2 cleans to get a good finish, you can help your self by making sure you clean all your frames before the move over to WFP and DONT use wash up liq as thats a night mare to get of the windows with a WFP

Good advice that Thats what im doing now

[bad trippy]

Tennent if i saw you out on my round id give ya something really worth reporting and it wouldnt be to the hse either  :

[Blackbushe Windows]

Tennet is right as far as the law goes. Link on my website (Health & Safety) takes you to the relevant HSE page.

Interestingly, OCS window cleaners HAVE to use WFP at height, and many companies will probably require that no ladders are used.

I have been a domestic trad W/C'er for nearly 26 years and always use a stability device.  As long as you follow the regulations there is no requirement that you use WFP.


Peter

[Craig 72]

He may be right but there's ways of doing things.Grassing people up to the authorities is low.