[Majestic]

I have been a Fed Member for a couple of years now and I think that being a member has gained me work .I have priced a few contract jobs and although I did not get all of them the ones that I did get  said that one of the reasons I got the job was because I was a Fed Member. I can only go from my experience and I think that it is money well spent . Before I found the forum if I had a problem I would phone the Fed office and 9 out of 10 times they could help, as for The Fed Man  and Mr Burrows having a slice of the pie  :oI think like me they are just  proud to be  members

[Central]

Ive just joined the federation and got a good price from them for insurance - just £84 per year.  Ive not recieved all my bits and pieces back yet but from what I've read you also get put on the council tender list for your area so you can quote for all the council work.  The way I look at it if you get 1 job per year it will have paid for itself and possibly a whole lot more - add that to all the benefits of magazines, trade shows, lower insurance, cheaper tools of the trade - I am very happy to have joined and hope it works out well.

[Andrew]

« Reply #20 on: Sep 28th, 2003, 4:19pm »
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers for reply intersting do you miss the fed and do you feel you could of made a difference in the avenues you were working in
Alan

do you miss the fed

A difficult question to answer in a few brief words!I am still a member, so there are aspects of the Fed i still enjoy. From a selfish point of view i got all that iwas likely to get (in terms of contacts, knowlege and experience) from membership of its Executive Committee a long time ago, so i dont miss it from that angle either. Perhaps what i miss the most is the confidence of others when it come to criticising the Fed. Previously i could be critical behind closed doors at a Executive Committee meeting, and frequently influence a decision.   When you get thrown out of a committee, criticisms after that get to be viewed as "sour grapes", so what could be a valuable observation is almost automatically rubbished and unrecognised. Not long ago, a respected member of the cleaning industry for example, called my recently published criiticisms regarding the Fed, a vendetta.  They were nothing of the kind of course! I only wish the best for the Federation.

do you feel you could of made a difference in the avenues you were working in

I beleive i have and continue to make a difference in the avenues i am working. I have Edu-Clean now, so the education and training i wanted to provide through the Fed, i now provide through Edu-Clean.

Edu-Clean is a registered and approved British Institute of Cleaning Science - City & Guilds training provider. We specialise in providing training to National Occupational Standards, either in bespoke form or as NVQ's.  The NVQ's we are registered to deliver are at Levels 1 and 2: window, glass and facade cleaning; carpets and soft furnishings; food premises; highways and land; passenger transport; building interiors. Our training/assessing is done where its meant to be, not in a college class room, or training centre, but in the workplace.  Providing our costs will be met, we are happy to travel anywhere in the UK to provide the service.

The excellence of Edu-Clean has been recognised outside of the cleaning industry as well as in. For instance in 2000 we were called to the Millennium Dome to receive a special award for the way in which we cascade our expertise to others.  By invitation I currently serve on the National Adult Learner's Forum - a body set up by NIACE (National Institute of Adult Continuing Education) to monitor the interests and concerns of adult learners. I use material provided by the Cleaning Industry National Traing Organisation to benefit the adult learners we have in the cleaning industry.

In the recent past I personally helped to produce all of the cleaning NVQ's currently in use - working with the Cleaning Industry National Training Organisation both as a member of its Governing Body, and as an expert contributor in my own right.

Hope i have provided the kind of answer you want Alan    Thanks for your interest!

Andrew

[Central]

How much do these Window Cleaning NVQ's cost, how long do they last and are they likely to give good tips to increase speed and still keep the quality even for people with some experience?

[Terry_Burrows]

Dear Sam,I can honestly say nor myself or the Fed
man do not have any money gains what so ever!
in the Federation by membership fees!,Andrew Walker
would understand that one!

you cannot make comments with out knowing the facts!
you do not!
I have been off line for a week,I have had 3 virus attacks,all different!

so sorry for not replying to all questions from all forum
members

[Polepro]

I understand that the Fed is a not for profit organisation, therefore one would expect them to put any money it makes back into the industry. Can Terry or Fed man tell us why it is that the Federation has spent over £100,000 on buying stocks and shares and still has a bank balance of more than a further £100,000. According to the statement of account handed out at this years AGM the Feds net worth is over £350,000. So with all this wealth why did they need to put the membership fee up in price? The main question is why can't the Federation put this money back into the industry, who is going to benefit from all of this hoarding? Don't the Federation know what to spend the money on? if they don't know what to spend it on do they actually know anything about the industry at all?

[Polepro]

Looks as thought my last post was too difficult for Mr T or Fed man to answer?

Tom

[Andrew]

WINDOW CLEANING NVQ'S

How much do these Window Cleaning NVQ's cost, how long do they last and are they likely to give good tips to increase speed and still keep the quality even for people with some experience?

The answers to these questions will vary according to the person or business asking them. and who it is you ask them of.    The way your questions are answered here assumes that the NVQ will be delivered as its meant to be  - in the course of your every day work, not in some training centre, or college class room.

How much do these Window Cleaning NVQ's cost

At Edu-Clean we have not have a pre-set fee.  We work all over the country (except Scotland where they have SVQ's instead) so costs vary widely according to where we might be.  An experienced cleaner will require less input than someone new usually, so previouly acquired compitence also has bearing on price.  Groups of window cleaners, rather than individuals, are more economical to work with also.  The question of how much trianing will cost needs to be balanced with your assessment of how much not getting training might cost you also.  Training may cost money but not getting training may cost you more.

how long do they last

Not sure what you mean by "last".  NVQ's like other formal qualifications stay with you for life.  Like other areas of compitence though future training or a refresher course of some sort is a wise investment from time to time - with health and safety in fact an essential!

City & Guilds require a minimum of 10 weeks between intial registration with them and their willingness to provide the resulting NVQ certificate of compitence.  Time required to obtain an NVQ is minimal as you are assessed performing your usual work work activities. Some time is needed at the start for induction and during delivery to provide explanations. Delivery may take longer if you are deemed incompitent, or at risk in some area, or if the employer requires more than the NVQ be delivered.

are they likely to give good tips to increase speed and still keep the quality even for people with some experience?

Frankly i would never offer a NVQ as a means to increase speed.  For many they may do. Given the focus on health and safety with in the NVQ however, in certain respects they may in fact slow you down a little.  If you have people in your life who love you i am sure they would be grateful for that.  My personal experience as someone with an NVQ is that speed is far less impotant to me than it was.  Once i learned to market my NVQ i found that facilities managers were releived to know i had it and were willing to pay me more. In delivering NVQ's, as with myself when i first obtained one, people do generally know what they are doing, and in the main may be skilled and compitent in what they do.  NVQ's are very good business assessment tools however and serve to highlight areas of weakness, and/ or opportunites for improvement.

Please let me know if you have further questions.  

Andrew from Edu-Clean UK

[Polepro]

Andrew, Very informative. How many window cleaners have done the NVQ and have the full qualification?

Tom

[Andrew]

How many window cleaners have done the NVQ and have the full qualification?

Thats a question i cant really answer and its not one i focus on.  I wouild imagine that BICS, the NTO or C&G would be able to tell you if you asked them though.

So far as i am aware there are still very few window cleaners with the full NVQ, but i know from our own work that far more others use them.  To explain one situation, for example, in our experience the people who push for window cleaning NVQ''s are not window cleaners themselves but facilites managers who want the competence their contracted window cleaners independantly assessed.  We go along there using the NVQ method but the 10 week interval C&G require is too long for them - they need and want the evidence more than the certificate so they can continue as soon as possibel with their contract.  So we would go through the process, provide the evidence (or needed improvement) and issue an Edu-Clean certificate for them.

Andrew from Edu-Clean UK

[Andrew]

u]NFMW&GC ACCOUNTS[/u]


I understand that the Fed is a not for profit organisation, therefore one would expect them to put any money it makes back into the industry. Can Terry or Fed man tell us why it is that the Federation has spent over £100,000 on buying stocks and shares and still has a bank balance of more than a further £100,000. According to the statement of account handed out at this years AGM the Feds net worth is over £350,000.

Its easy to fall into the trap of thinking of the Fed as a none profit organisation. Section 4 of the rule book shows clearly that if funds are available, but there is no immediate use for them, then they can be invested for corporate profit. Like it or not the membership endorse this approach, and did so as recently as the last AGM

I found this very difficult when i served as an Executive Committee member.  The Fed has no formal business plan as we in business understand business plans.  The Fed is almost entirely reactive in the way it operates.  Everything that happens is in response to quarterly committee meetings where an agreed response to everything that is current at that time is agreed. That in turn sets the agenda for the next 3 months.  Longer term pre-determination of costs and plans for investing the remainder of funds in the membership and its interests just does not exist.  The result is a perceived surplus for further investment.

Caught in this system there might be an individual committee member who rather than seeing the enrichment of the organisation as the desired goal, actually wants to do something for the membership.


It concerned me as an Executive Committee member that we used the same auditor year in and year out.  That might be an arrangement that’s convenient and comfortable for the Fed administration but my view is that an occasional change of auditor would be more in keeping with the memberships interests.

So with all this wealth why did they need to put the membership fee up in price?

The Fed raise the sub fee each year because it’s considered best practice.  The view is that a regular increase grooms the membership for the next one.  If more than a year went by without an increase the fear is that when the next raise did arrive the membership would not be mentally conditioned for it and might complain.

The main question is why can't the Federation put this money back into the industry, who is going to benefit from all of this hoarding? Don't the Federation know what to spend the money on? if they don't know what to spend it on do they actually know anything about the industry at all?

Given what i explain above these questions are irrelevant to the Fed.  The Fed rules allow for present monetary practice and the membership approves.

Andrew from Edu-Clean

[Andrew]

I can honestly say nor myself or the Fed man do not have any money gains what so ever! in the Federation by membership fees!,Andrew Walker would understand that one!



I have no idea who "Fed man" is!

No member of the Fed Executive Committee receives commission from membership fees.  

Executive Committee members are however paid honoraria and milage costs when representing the Federation (Rule 8/1). These are raised annually according to inflation.

Andrew from Edu-Clean

[The_Fed_Man]

Looks as thought my last post was too difficult for Mr T or Fed man to answer?

I was on holiday Tom, contrary to the belief of some on here there is life after window cleaning  You seem to know a lot about the Fed being a non-member, were you a member before?

Executive Committee members are however paid honoraria and milage costs when representing the Federation

Yes and that's it, some of the days are long and some work is undertaken on an unpaid basis, Andrew can vouch for this!

The Federation is the main, officially recognised body we as window cleaners have.  If you want to change anything and be heard, GET INVOLVED!!!!  

[STEVE71163]

Hi Fed Man,
                 Out of interest who is Fed Man

Steve

[The_Fed_Man]

Out of interest who is Fed Man

[STEVE71163]

Well i saw you were the well fed man and i was trying to think of the biggest

Steve

[The_Fed_Man]

Well i saw you were the well fed man and i was trying to think of the biggest

Nope, back on the Slim Fast

[Polepro]

Andrew, thanks for your informative reply about the Feds money.

Section 4 of the rule book shows clearly that if funds are available, but there is no immediate use for them, then they can be invested for corporate profit. Like it or not the membership endorse this approach, and did so as recently as the last AGM

It seems that excess funds have been available for many years with no plans about how best to spend them in the interests of the industry. Out of the 2400 or so members how many of them endorsed this approach at the last AGM?

The Fed has no formal business plan

I'm surprised!

The main question is why can't the Federation put this money back into the industry, who is going to benefit from all of this hoarding? Don't the Federation know what to spend the money on? if they don't know what to spend it on do they actually know anything about the industry at all?

Given what i explain above these questions are irrelevant to the Fed.

Given that questions about the Fed putting the money it makes from the members back into the industry are irrelevant, does'nt that make the Federation irrelevant to the industry?

TOM

[Polepro]

Andrew, thanks for your answers about trianing, it sounds as though finding out how many window cleaners have the NVQ qualification may be difficult. Can you tell us how many of your clients have achieved the NVQ qualification?

Tom

[Andrew]

Andrew, thanks for your answers about trianing, it sounds as though finding out how many window cleaners have the NVQ qualification may be difficult. Can you tell us how many of your clients have achieved the NVQ qualification?

Sorry i thought i had replied to this one but seems not  

If you mean full accreditation the answer to this question is none!

The people i have used NVQ's with either want just a few of the units (unit accreditation) or to use the NVQ system as a means of independant assessment.

I am personally happy with that.

Andrew from Edu-Clean