Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: DeLuce on November 05, 2017, 05:02:51 pm
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Hi everyone,
Are the hot water systems that the likes of Grippa and Purefreedom use worth the dosh?
Are they based on the Webasto heaters that are diesel fed?
I currently use an immersion heater set-up,which I like and is reliable, but I would like to up the heat at times and wondered whether to buy and fit a Webasto 5kw diesel water heater which you can buy refurbished for around the £250-400 mark.
Those that run these diesel set-ups, what do you think? Any disadvantages? What do you like about them?
Thanks for any feedback!
Nic.
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Oh, I also don't mind playing about with the spanners, unless it's totally pointless :P
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I think it depends on how hot you actually want at the brush head. IMO i dont think a 5kw heater is strong enough to give really hot water at the brush head especially in winter when going through 100m of hose i would tend to be looking at the 9kw ones even for a single user.
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Thanks P1w1, Mmmm, didn't think of that 👍
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Just to add i haven't actually used hot water so not an expert, just my thoughts. Spruce is the man to ask i think, as i believe he has looked into all this before and tested it, and of course the people who actually use these system.
If i was to get one then i wouldn't buy it from a wfp supplier. I would buy the webasto heater itself and install it, you would probably do it for at least half the price these companies charge as i believe they just use the same type heater.
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Just to add i haven't actually used hot water so not an expert, just my thoughts. Spruce is the man to ask i think, as i believe he has looked into all this before and tested it, and of course the people who actually use these system.
If i was to get one then i wouldn't buy it from a wfp supplier. I would buy the webasto heater itself and install it, you would probably do it for at least half the price these companies charge as i believe they just use the same type heater.
I found on a test bench that the Thermo Top C only raised the water from 9 degrees to 35 degrees at the brush head. The initial flow was 1.5lpm but the water flow increased with heat. I dear say that if I reduced the flow back to 1.5lpm I may have got a little more heat. I set the thermostatic temperature control valve to 40 anyway.
I used minibore hose and found that the particular hose I use happily with cold became very stretchy.
According to physics I should only have used 2.65kw to raise the water temperature through 26 degrees at 1.5lpm. But the heater had nothing else to give. Although some heat would have been lost by the normal process of a hot item in a cold place, radiation, I believe that the majority of remaining heat lost was out of the exhaust as that gets very hot.
One needs to be very careful if going down buying a second hand Thermo Top C . They are usually auxillary heaters from various cars from the breakers yards.
Most are vehicle specific. So the BMW one I originally purchased wouldn't work as it needs to get instructions from BMW's canbus system. A new pcb for universal application cost more that the heater.
I believe the the units fitted to Rover 75 models work, as do the ones fitted to PSA models, but I'm not 100% sure on the latter one. (There is a post on YouTube where some guys have a Thermo Top c from a Peugeot 807 they got to work.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcfPMQw3toU
If you find one thats been refurbished from a boat then they will be ok.
If you are thinking about doing a diy one you must understand how the heating program cycle works. A heater that reaches temperature takes 180 seconds to go through its shutdown cycle and then uses a fair bit of current to get going again when starting up.
The other issue with the Thermo Top is that if you start cleaning windows a few moments after switching the heater on , you will always seem to have cool water. The heater really needs to get up to speed before you start drawing heat from it. This is why its recommended that you start the heater whilst on the way to your first customer.
The 8lpm gas heaters that were popular with some cleaners delivered 16kw and they gave instant heat. Diesel heaters don't deliver anywhere near that amount. A Thermo Top C is 5.2kw and the ST90 is 9.1 kw.
Making up your own heater may seem pretty easy but it is more complex than it looks. Where do you get the diesel from? Just putting a 'standpipe' into the diesel tank is a major operation.
We don't do much mileage and I use a tank of fuel every 4 or 5 weeks. A diesel heater drawing fuel would probably take another tank full a month, and possibly a bit more.
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Thanks Spruce for such a comprehensive answer. Interesting.
I was thinking of this diesel water heater route instead of using the electricity from home each night to heat my water up. Getting a more consistent and higher temperature when required.
Oh well, might stick with the immersion :D
Thanks.
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Thanks Spruce for such a comprehensive answer. Interesting.
I was thinking of this diesel water heater route instead of using the electricity from home each night to heat my water up. Getting a more consistent and higher temperature when required.
Oh well, might stick with the immersion :D
Thanks.
A diesel heater heats the water in an internal circuit comprising of the heater, a water to water plate heat exchanger and a header tank. The heat to your brush gets taken from the internal circuit by heat transfer at the heat exchanger. They add an adjustable thermostatic control valve to regulate the temperature of the water going to your brush head.
If you stop to talk or move onto the next job the heater will still continue to heat the water in its internal water circuit. As it reaches the top end of its heating cycle, it goes into half heat mode until it reaches full temperature. The heater then goes into shutdown mode which takes 3 minutes to complete. During this process and for as long as the heater is powered up the internal water pump continues to circulate the water through the internal water circuit. If you start your next house during the heater shut down, the heater will continue its shutdown and when finished will restart the heater. This takes at least another 3 minutes to get going . By that time you have zapped all the hot water in the internal circuit and it will battle to get that water back up to temperature whilst your are washing windows. So your water will be luke warm for quite some time.
Starting a Webasto or any other heater will draw around 20 amps of current in pulses to get the diesel heater fired up, much like glow plugs on an old diesel van.
Ionics get around this stop start issue by using a bypass valve and continiously running the water pump supplying your brush. When you turn your water flow off to your brush the pressure in the system rises and blows off a pressure relief valve at 65psi which directs that hot water back into your van's tank. This stops the system's stop restart cycle.
Unfortunately the downside is that you can't regulate the temperature of water to your brush head as they can't add a thermostatic temperature control valve to the heat exchanger like the other suppliers do.
At those temperatures you start to need to consider hoses that will better tollerate that extra heat and pressure
You then have to consider how you would power that heater. Do you have a dedicated diesel heater battery and a separate wfp battery or can you use a single battery that will support both applications. (This isn't as bigger problem as it was as some leisure batteries are now dual purpose (starter and leisure combination) with new calcium technology so will tollerate higher draw currents.)
Webasto tell us that the heat draws 0.5kgs of diesel an hour under full load. An Australian manual says its 0.59 liters an hour. When I did this test my focus was on the heating aspect of the heater, but it was only afterwards that I worked out that my heater used more fuel than that.
For any one else thinking about this, if you buy from a scrap yard, you need to make sure you have the circulation pump with the heater as these are expensive. Rover for example locate that pump elsewhere on the car. All scrap yards tell you the heater has been tested and working 100%. This isn't always true as they all lie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f67OzZZJzic
So buy at your own risk.
You will also need a wiring harness and a starter/timer switch. You will also need a fuel pump and its wiring harness as well as the correct size diesel supply hose.
Here's a better option
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Webasto-Thermo-Top-boat-motorhome-diesel-water-heater-warranty/252144112661?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49130%26meid%3Df88b4984a1ef42a1989fbce136265f26%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26mehot%3Dlo%26sd%3D252147925455&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
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ive never used a diesel heater but ive had various gas heaters.
its up to you.do you do a lot of add ons and dirty first cleans?if not and most of your work is maintenance window cleaning on a 4 weekly/8 weekly basis then your probably wasting your money.
IME hot water didnt speed me up at all over the course of a normal working day whether it was regular work or add on work.the water needs to be really hot to have any cleaning benefit and even then its marginal.its costly for very little benefit.
i was spending around £600 a year on gas alone as well as trips to the local boating yard to swap bottles etc.
if you dont mind spending the money and can put up with the extra faff then go for it.to me its just another thing to go wrong.i prefer to keep things simple.
i use cold water all year round now.chemicals for very dirty first cleans and add on jobs and if the weather is that cold its freezing on the glass(-2 or lower)then its time to go home IMO.
i do put an oil filled radiator in the back of my van to stop everything freezing on very cold winter nights but thats it these days.
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Why bother going to the extra faff. I cant be bothered to check the temp at brush end but the max the water temp has been in my tank is 75 degrees C. through the use of an immersion heater. The reason incant be bothered to check tempnat brush end because to the touch its very hot. As in you cant leave your hand under it.
So how hot are you wanting it?? My hot will easily shift green algae and the likes of very dirty fascias or conny roofs.
How hot is yours?? Is your tank insulated?? Turn the thermostat to ita highest on heater and leave it powered on for long if need be. Change gour electric tarrif for the cheaper night price. For the first several months I thought I had the peak/off peak tariff but I hadnt. I needed a new electric box/reader in house and the electric bloke tried talking my wife out of it saying its more expensive. Must adnit I was mad at this and phoned up to register a complaint. Because I checked before doing so and the truth was I would end up paying a penny cheaper during the day and the night tariff was just less than half price I was paying!!
Off peak for me is 12 - 7.30 but I obviously leave it on longer than this.
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I would say preventing burning your house down would be as good enough reason as any to faff about, to get anywhere near
the temps Nathan is getting your going to need a 3kw emersion which will need an upgrade in your home electrics, plus running a 3kw heater for 8 to 10 hours every night isn't going to be cheap.
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I would say preventing burning your house down would be as good enough reason as any to faff about, to get anywhere near
the temps Nathan is getting your going to need a 3kw emersion which will need an upgrade in your home electrics, plus running a 3kw heater for 8 to 10 hours every night isn't going to be cheap.
And here we go again 😴😴😴😴
My house still stands, not burnt or fried and no electrics have been changed. Using a 2kw or less requires no changeing of your electric set up.
But you have a greater chance of blowing your van up with gas if using gas and the other route seems more faff than its worth.
Oh i also think dry clean is old enough to remember the days when households had only immersion heaters to heat up the water in the family home and I dont recall hearing/being told tails how houses would burn during the night
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Just a quick boring vid showing todays start temp.
Ps....no houses were burnt down in the production of this video 😂😂
https://youtu.be/J2XqZ3l1PUE
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I would say preventing burning your house down would be as good enough reason as any to faff about, to get anywhere near
the temps Nathan is getting your going to need a 3kw emersion which will need an upgrade in your home electrics, plus running a 3kw heater for 8 to 10 hours every night isn't going to be cheap.
And here we go again 😴😴😴😴
My house still stands, not burnt or fried and no electrics have been changed. Using a 2kw or less requires no changeing of your electric set up.
But you have a greater chance of blowing your van up with gas if using gas and the other route seems more faff than its worth.
Oh i also think dry clean is old enough to remember the days when households had only immersion heaters to heat up the water in the family home and I dont recall hearing/being told tails how houses would burn during the night
Nathan its guys like you who get people injured, household immersion heaters are on higher rated wiring than your 13amp
sockets as are electric showers and so on, even a 2kw heater running non stop for hours on end would be pushing it on a 13amp socket.
The worse part is even with a bit of bubble wrap wrapped around your tank a 2kw isn't going to go anywhere near 70degrees
in the time available and your harping on about doing it with a 1kw.
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Look i ordered a 1kw 27inch immersion kit. Ive also shown the receipt on here before.
Also 2kw is also ok on the household electrics just be careful whatbelse your running from the same wire/double socket. But then thats common sense.
Also i dont very much care for the science i just simply know the results im getting. You dont think i am and i must be wasting alot of my time trying to fabricate false videos to prove what exactly??
If you notice im not saying how long im leaving it running anymore, cause quite frankly you dont belief me. So my ownly advice to ones using it, is what i said above. Get a good tariff and run it for whatever time to wish to get the temps you want.
If im full of poop then it aint cost as much as a diesil or gas heater and you can go down that line. But in the meantime ive been paid hundreads for promoting immersion heaters n making suckers buy them 😂😂😂😂😂 thats if u believe dry clean
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Look i ordered a 1kw 27inch immersion kit. Ive also shown the receipt on here before.
Also 2kw is also ok on the household electrics just be careful whatbelse your running from the same wire/double socket. But then thats common sense.
Also i dont very much care for the science i just simply know the results im getting. You dont think i am and i must be wasting alot of my time trying to fabricate false videos to prove what exactly??
If you notice im not saying how long im leaving it running anymore, cause quite frankly you dont belief me. So my ownly advice to ones using it, is what i said above. Get a good tariff and run it for whatever time to wish to get the temps you want.
If im full of poop then it aint cost as much as a diesil or gas heater and you can go down that line. But in the meantime ive been paid hundreads for promoting immersion heaters n making suckers buy them 😂😂😂😂😂 thats if u believe dry clean
Nathan I honestly couldn't care less what you spend your money on and if this wasn't a safety issue I would just let you get on with it.
If your getting the results your claiming to be getting then it doesn't matter what your receipt tells you, your running a 3kw
heater, that puts you your family and anybody who buys this heater on your recommendation at risk.
The science says its impossible for you to be getting the results your getting with the heater your using therefore you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to work out your either reading the results wrong or your heater is stronger than you believe it to be,
Iv no reason to believe your lying.
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Running a 2kw on a 13amp socket would be just within the allowance but if running it for 10 to 12hours every night you would be
safer getting the electrics upgraded.
A 2kw heater will up the temp of 500ltrs by 50degrees in 14.5 hours with absolutely no heat escaping from the water , there's no possible way of improving on this, science fact.
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Running a 2kw on a 13amp socket would be just within the allowance but if running it for 10 to 12hours every night you would be
safer getting the electrics upgraded.
A 2kw heater will up the temp of 500ltrs by 50degrees in 14.5 hours with absolutely no heat escaping from the water , there's no possible way of improving on this, science fact.
I will put my immersion on tonight ( if I remember ) I will post my results tomorrow, both the starting temp at night and the temp in the morning and how long the immersion has been plugged in. I have a 3kw immersion and had an electrician upgrade my electrics in the garage. I very much doubt the results will be able to match the heat of Nathans water.
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
Complete rubbish, you can't get cleaner than clean. Hot water may make the job a little easier but the end result will be the same.....clean windows.
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Running a 2kw on a 13amp socket would be just within the allowance but if running it for 10 to 12hours every night you would be
safer getting the electrics upgraded.
A 2kw heater will up the temp of 500ltrs by 50degrees in 14.5 hours with absolutely no heat escaping from the water , there's no possible way of improving on this, science fact.
I will put my immersion on tonight ( if I remember ) I will post my results tomorrow, both the starting temp at night and the temp in the morning and how long the immersion has been plugged in. I have a 3kw immersion and had an electrician upgrade my electrics in the garage. I very much doubt the results will be able to match the heat of Nathans water.
This should be interesting.
I dont belief mine is a 3kw 27inch element at all. If it is then i got a cracking deal on price as it was cheap as chips. Also my standard heavy duty oranges extension would be really warm,,,,,dangerously hot in fact.
If my tank is being filled virtually from empty from my outside ibc tank than i would run the heater for even longer as the start temp is around 16 degrees.
But by the end of the night, as shown in so many of my public videos, the water temp by 8pm is around 40 - 50 degrees. Whenni top up with the cold my starting temp is around 38 - 44 degrees. Which then dictates how long i turn the heater on for.
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
Thanks for your input with regard diesel usage over a month. User experience is worth much more than written down theory.
I just used Webasto's figures of 0.59 liters of diesel an hour on full throttle. Webasto give 0.30 lph under reduced throttle. (I excluded the reduce heat consumption.
I worked on the assumption of 6 hours a day 5 days a week and 4 weeks a month = 70 liters using full heat mode. That's what my van's tank holds.
What tank do you use to fuel your heater NWH?
Thanks
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Hi Nathan
As I recall my 14 inch was about £80 ish 2kw.
Today was the first colder day, orgasmic as the steam comes off the glass!
I only have a 350 tank so tend to heat for a few hours in the evening then about 4 hours early morning.
Was 60 in the tank and 50 something at the brush head.
I usually heat to about 44.
Before people start laughing I can tell you that both green algae and snail trails disappear with no effort.
Also rinsing is so fast and hoses lovely and supple.
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I use a 25ltr container from a caravan center the 2 opening version 1 small screw lid with a hole drilled for diesel the bigger screw lid with a small pipe for air out. When all is good and tbh honest if I new what I know now I’d have had very little problems with it,they are very reliable there’s only 3-4 things that need replacing on them and they are like triggers broom all can be replaced by yourself. My recommendation to any newbie would be get a thermo too C. Version heater they literally cost peanuts to run on diesel,5-£6 a week that’s it.
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For cleaning Windows you don’t need anything that heats water hotter unless all your cleaning everyday is cladding even then it’s hot enough,gas heaters are more to run and not as reliable from people I know have them and they have the purpose built models made for window cleaning they wished they’d gone diesel. The only thing with gas is you can get the temp more accurate.
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Is all this heating malarkey worth the cost of buying? cost of running? Increased risk to home and van? Faffing about ? Breakdowns?
For what? Warner hands, faster getting bird poo off, getting out an hour earlier on those rare frosty mornings.
;D ;D
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Running a 2kw on a 13amp socket would be just within the allowance but if running it for 10 to 12hours every night you would be
safer getting the electrics upgraded.
A 2kw heater will up the temp of 500ltrs by 50degrees in 14.5 hours with absolutely no heat escaping from the water , there's no possible way of improving on this, science fact.
I will put my immersion on tonight ( if I remember ) I will post my results tomorrow, both the starting temp at night and the temp in the morning and how long the immersion has been plugged in. I have a 3kw immersion and had an electrician upgrade my electrics in the garage. I very much doubt the results will be able to match the heat of Nathans water.
This should be interesting.
I dont belief mine is a 3kw 27inch element at all. If it is then i got a cracking deal on price as it was cheap as chips. Also my standard heavy duty oranges extension would be really warm,,,,,dangerously hot in fact.
If my tank is being filled virtually from empty from my outside ibc tank than i would run the heater for even longer as the start temp is around 16 degrees.
But by the end of the night, as shown in so many of my public videos, the water temp by 8pm is around 40 - 50 degrees. Whenni top up with the cold my starting temp is around 38 - 44 degrees. Which then dictates how long i turn the heater on for.
Do you actually clean any windows Nathan ? you have a 500ltr tank and its still that full at the end of the day when topped
up with cold it only drops a few degrees, to be honest your nothing more than a bad story teller which is why your not worried if
your element is 3kw or not.
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Is all this heating malarkey worth the cost of buying? cost of running? Increased risk to home and van? Faffing about ? Breakdowns?
For what? Warner hands, faster getting bird poo off, getting out an hour earlier on those rare frosty mornings.
;D ;D
Yep!! For me its about comfort and as you may know, i have the hose around my waist and in this cold weather its lovely!!
Im gonna post it later, but the temp in my ibc tank today is a very cold 11.3 degrees. Ild hate to be using that with stiff hoses and then on a very cold icy day to lay an already cold hose on top of a very cold icy ground doesnt sound like fun to me.
But cleaning wise, its faster and very effective on pvc frames. Certainly good for first cleans and also no need for chems on fascia or conny roof cleans. Then theres the spider poo etc or even splattered concrete. Ive used hot water on conrete to successfully remove n clean.
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Keep watching this space dry clean for when i post the pictures. At mo im getting kids to bed but lets see what the evidence shows.
Also if you have nothing better to do please find the post where i showed the receipt of purchase for my very cheap 3kw 27 inch heater.
Please also enlighten me as to what im gaining from this by spinning a tail?? So i can be called that bloke with hot or the hottest water 😂😂😂😂 cant you see how ridiculous it is. Im gaining jack all by lying
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Keep watching this space dry clean for when i post the pictures. At mo im getting kids to bed but lets see what the evidence shows.
Also if you have nothing better to do please find the post where i showed the receipt of purchase for my very cheap 3kw 27 inch heater.
Here the water heating calculator before putting the kids to bed get one of them to work it
out for you.
http://processheatingservices.com/water-heating-time-calculator
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Is all this heating malarkey worth the cost of buying? cost of running? Increased risk to home and van? Faffing about ? Breakdowns?
For what? Warner hands, faster getting bird poo off, getting out an hour earlier on those rare frosty mornings.
;D ;D
Yep!! For me its about comfort and as you may know, i have the hose around my waist and in this cold weather its lovely!!
Im gonna post it later, but the temp in my ibc tank today is a very cold 11.3 degrees. Ild hate to be using that with stiff hoses and then on a very cold icy day to lay an already cold hose on top of a very cold icy ground doesnt sound like fun to me.
But cleaning wise, its faster and very effective on pvc frames. Certainly good for first cleans and also no need for chems on fascia or conny roof cleans. Then theres the spider poo etc or even splattered concrete. Ive used hot water on conrete to successfully remove n clean.
Thats not wise you could scratch someones glass doing that :-X
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Is all this heating malarkey worth the cost of buying? cost of running? Increased risk to home and van? Faffing about ? Breakdowns?
For what? Warner hands, faster getting bird poo off, getting out an hour earlier on those rare frosty mornings.
;D ;D
Yep!! For me its about comfort and as you may know, i have the hose around my waist and in this cold weather its lovely!!
Im gonna post it later, but the temp in my ibc tank today is a very cold 11.3 degrees. Ild hate to be using that with stiff hoses and then on a very cold icy day to lay an already cold hose on top of a very cold icy ground doesnt sound like fun to me.
But cleaning wise, its faster and very effective on pvc frames. Certainly good for first cleans and also no need for chems on fascia or conny roof cleans. Then theres the spider poo etc or even splattered concrete. Ive used hot water on conrete to successfully remove n clean.
Thats not wise you could scratch someones glass doing that :-X
Not really, I just soak it and then with my finger nail I brush it off. The hot water really softens it.
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Keep watching this space dry clean for when i post the pictures. At mo im getting kids to bed but lets see what the evidence shows.
Also if you have nothing better to do please find the post where i showed the receipt of purchase for my very cheap 3kw 27 inch heater.
Here the water heating calculator before putting the kids to bed get one of them to work it
out for you.
http://processheatingservices.com/water-heating-time-calculator
Ok, so just to repeat this mornings vid showing start temp of water at around 10am.
https://youtu.be/J2XqZ3l1PUE
This is how much water i had left by end of night and the temp of said water.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1509999788_PhotoEditor-1509999525382.jpg)
This is how much water is now in the tank and again the temp of said water. (However the tds stick is a little fogged up, but you might be able to read it still. If not ive wrote it on.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1509999883_PhotoEditor-1509999611296.jpg)
Im sticking it on early tonight at 8 pm till 8am or 8.30 pending how the morning goes.
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
Thanks for your input with regard diesel usage over a month. User experience is worth much more than written down theory.
I just used Webasto's figures of 0.59 liters of diesel an hour on full throttle. Webasto give 0.30 lph under reduced throttle. (I excluded the reduce heat consumption.
I worked on the assumption of 6 hours a day 5 days a week and 4 weeks a month = 70 liters using full heat mode. That's what my van's tank holds.
What tank do you use to fuel your heater NWH?
Thanks
.
In my experience Spruce, you're not far off. I have a 25 ltr tank which I can get about 20 ltrs out of before it drops below the output level. I have to fill it about every 7 working days, so about 60 litres a month. That's running permanently, sometimes full blast, sometimes tickover with no bypass fitted. If I don't mix 4 litres kero in with the diesel its a disaster, smoke everywhere. I am running a thermo 90st though.
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
Thanks for your input with regard diesel usage over a month. User experience is worth much more than written down theory.
I just used Webasto's figures of 0.59 liters of diesel an hour on full throttle. Webasto give 0.30 lph under reduced throttle. (I excluded the reduce heat consumption.
I worked on the assumption of 6 hours a day 5 days a week and 4 weeks a month = 70 liters using full heat mode. That's what my van's tank holds.
What tank do you use to fuel your heater NWH?
Thanks
.
In my experience Spruce, you're not far off. I have a 25 ltr tank which I can get about 20 ltrs out of before it drops below the output level. I have to fill it about every 7 working days, so about 60 litres a month. That's running permanently, sometimes full blast, sometimes tickover with no bypass fitted. If I don't mix 4 litres kero in with the diesel its a disaster, smoke everywhere. I am running a thermo 90st though.
Your ST90 will use more diesel than the Thermo Top C . Webasto quote 1.1 lph on full heat mode, but on the lower heat cycle it could use much less than the Thermo Top C in the same heat mode (0.19 - 0.9 lph.)
I think the ST90 is more suited to window cleaning provided you can bleed that little extra heat off to stop it entering it stop/start cycle. If you have a 2 man system and there is only you, then you can run you second pump on slow and bleed that extra heat back to the tank. I have plans to add a third heat exchanger and trigger a third pump using a digital heat controller to do this.
What tank are you using? I think one of the problems is trying to find a suitable tank that has a fuel guage on it or that is opaque so you can see at a glance how much full you have left. If the unit locks out due to no fuel then it can be a palava getting it up and running.
Where do you buy Kerosene in small quantities from?
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Here are the temps in my tank this morning.......I have a 750 litre uninsulated upright tank, I filled it with approx. 500 litres from my static, the ambient water temp was 15 degrees before I plugged in, using a 3kw element from 10pm - 7.30am the water temp has risen to 48 degrees at the top of the tank and 45 degrees at the bottom. This is fine for me as I use backpacks so not as much heat loss running the water through 100 metres of hose.
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Here are the temps in my tank this morning.......I have a 750 litre uninsulated upright tank, I filled it with approx. 500 litres from my static, the ambient water temp was 15 degrees before I plugged in, using a 3kw element from 10pm - 7.30am the water temp has risen to 48 degrees at the top of the tank and 45 degrees at the bottom. This is fine for me as I use backpacks so not as much heat loss running the water through 100 metres of hose.
Exactly no real surprise there as it fits with the science, maybe after listening to you Nathan might give his head a wobble and
for the sake of safety get his element checked out, I doubt it though.
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Here are the temps in my tank this morning.......I have a 750 litre uninsulated upright tank, I filled it with approx. 500 litres from my static, the ambient water temp was 15 degrees before I plugged in, using a 3kw element from 10pm - 7.30am the water temp has risen to 48 degrees at the top of the tank and 45 degrees at the bottom. This is fine for me as I use backpacks so not as much heat loss running the water through 100 metres of hose.
Exactly no real surprise there as it fits with the science, maybe after listening to you Nathan might give his head a wobble and
for the sake of safety get his element checked out, I doubt it though.
So in 9 hrs from a cold start of 15 degrees it rose by 33 degrees.
My starting point was quite warm at 39 degrees so the heater didnt have to expend its energy in heating the water from cold. I turned my heater on from 8.30 pm untill 8.30 am. So my water if using a 3kw 27 inch should raise far more than 33 degrees?
So what would you expect it to be?
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Here are the temps in my tank this morning.......I have a 750 litre uninsulated upright tank, I filled it with approx. 500 litres from my static, the ambient water temp was 15 degrees before I plugged in, using a 3kw element from 10pm - 7.30am the water temp has risen to 48 degrees at the top of the tank and 45 degrees at the bottom. This is fine for me as I use backpacks so not as much heat loss running the water through 100 metres of hose.
Exactly no real surprise there as it fits with the science, maybe after listening to you Nathan might give his head a wobble and
for the sake of safety get his element checked out, I doubt it though.
So in 9 hrs from a cold start of 15 degrees it rose by 33 degrees.
My starting point was quite warm at 39 degrees so the heater didnt have to expend its energy in heating the water from cold. I turned my heater on from 8.30 pm untill 8.30 am. So my water if using a 3kw 27 inch should raise far more than 33 degrees?
So what would you expect it to be?
Firstly Nathan a kw is a kw no matter how long your element is.
To raise the water by 33degrees from any starting temp the figures are,
500lts 1kw 1153mins or 19.2 hours
500lts 2kw 576mins or 9.6 hours
500lts 3kw 384mins or 6.4 hours
These are all the maximum possible figure and don't allow for heat lose and slight differences in temps throughout the tank.
Therefore going by your findings your element seems to be around the 2kw mark.
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That is to much faffing for me I turn my heater on and in 5-6 minutes I have hot water I know your saying you just plug yours in and it’s heat Nathan but I pre beat mine on the way to the first job and it’s piping hot when I pull up and get going.
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The comfort is purely a bonus hot water is an alround better way to clean.
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The comfort is purely a bonus hot water is an alround better way to clean.
Nonsense, if your looking a better way to clean you'll need a PPB machine, hot water minimum 80degrees, a pump able to deliver 100lts per minute, a wonder additive, a 800g 42inch soft hard and medium mixed brush with 300 jets pencil and fan mixed, plus for first cleans a heavy duty degreaser, even with all that you wont get a perfect job because wfp doesn't work.
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wow loads of heating engineers on here if they knew that much why are they cleaning windows and not fitting boilers earning much more money ?
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wow loads of heating engineers on here if they knew that much why are they cleaning windows and not fitting boilers earning much more money ?
You make a good point Deano!
Mind you at £400 a day it's pretty close.
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That is to much faffing for me I turn my heater on and in 5-6 minutes I have hot water I know your saying you just plug yours in and it’s heat Nathan but I pre beat mine on the way to the first job and it’s piping hot when I pull up and get going.
If you have a split charge relay the van's alternator will be supplying the initial power requirement to fire up the boiler rather than your auxillary battery.
Heating on demand is the most efficient way of heating just the water you are using.
If Nathan heats up his tank but for some reason couldn't go out that day, then he has wasted all that electricity.
.
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I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
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That is to much faffing for me I turn my heater on and in 5-6 minutes I have hot water I know your saying you just plug yours in and it’s heat Nathan but I pre beat mine on the way to the first job and it’s piping hot when I pull up and get going.
If you have a split charge relay the van's alternator will be supplying the initial power requirement to fire up the boiler rather than your auxillary battery.
Heating on demand is the most efficient way of heating just the water you are using.
If Nathan heats up his tank but for some reason couldn't go out that day, then he has wasted all that electricity.
.
Sadly your right. Ive done that before where family took ill during night so i was left baby sitting 😭
But since however long its been on hot, i aint going back to cold
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Agree pretty much with this, same unit, I estimate it's more like 1.25 litres an hour, although if not using two pumps, one can be switched on recirculate, which heats the tank water, in turn allowing you to turn off the boiler by early afternoon, should you wish...
That is all
Mr B
I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
45degrees is just a warm bath everybody knows the sweet spot is 81.554958degrees, that's when the water becomes one with
the dirt.
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
obviously having warm water on a cold day is nice but IMO its not worth the extra cost and extra faffing about.we hardly ever get any cold weather these days anyway.
also when i was using hot every day i never finished work earlier because i got round quicker.its a myth.i still clean 4 or 5 three bed semis an hour just like i did with hot.my larger jobs,again just as long to clean whether its hot or cold water.
the windows are just as clean too.you cant get cleaner than clean.hot water doesnt remove leaf stains,spider poo etc off frames either(just like cold doesnt).
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
obviously having warm water on a cold day is nice but IMO its not worth the extra cost and extra faffing about.we hardly ever get any cold weather these days anyway.
also when i was using hot every day i never finished work earlier because i got round quicker.its a myth.i still clean 4 or 5 three bed semis an hour just like i did with hot.my larger jobs,again just as long to clean whether its hot or cold water.
the windows are just as clean too.you cant get cleaner than clean.hot water doesnt remove leaf stains,spider poo etc off frames either(just like cold doesnt).
It might not remove leaf stains but it sure does remove splattered cement! ;D
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I know what I’d rather use I’ve used both 80 degree water would be unusable in even today’s weather at the brush head,you have a cracking day literally.
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
obviously having warm water on a cold day is nice but IMO its not worth the extra cost and extra faffing about.we hardly ever get any cold weather these days anyway.
also when i was using hot every day i never finished work earlier because i got round quicker.its a myth.i still clean 4 or 5 three bed semis an hour just like i did with hot.my larger jobs,again just as long to clean whether its hot or cold water.
the windows are just as clean too.you cant get cleaner than clean.hot water doesnt remove leaf stains,spider poo etc off frames either(just like cold doesnt).
It might not remove leaf stains but it sure does remove splattered cement! ;D
That's why I stopped using it, my clients sills and render around the windows were melting with every clean. lol.
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
obviously having warm water on a cold day is nice but IMO its not worth the extra cost and extra faffing about.we hardly ever get any cold weather these days anyway.
also when i was using hot every day i never finished work earlier because i got round quicker.its a myth.i still clean 4 or 5 three bed semis an hour just like i did with hot.my larger jobs,again just as long to clean whether its hot or cold water.
the windows are just as clean too.you cant get cleaner than clean.hot water doesnt remove leaf stains,spider poo etc off frames either(just like cold doesnt).
It might not remove leaf stains but it sure does remove splattered cement! ;D
;D ;D
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
obviously having warm water on a cold day is nice but IMO its not worth the extra cost and extra faffing about.we hardly ever get any cold weather these days anyway.
also when i was using hot every day i never finished work earlier because i got round quicker.its a myth.i still clean 4 or 5 three bed semis an hour just like i did with hot.my larger jobs,again just as long to clean whether its hot or cold water.
the windows are just as clean too.you cant get cleaner than clean.hot water doesnt remove leaf stains,spider poo etc off frames either(just like cold doesnt).
It might not remove leaf stains but it sure does remove splattered cement! ;D
That's why I stopped using it, my clients sills and render around the windows were melting with every clean. lol.
Stop it ;D
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These diesel Webasto units seem a costly option .
I had an electrician fit me a 3kw immersion heater into my delivery tank in garage.
All done properly with armoured cable, rcd and on a timer.
Cost me a few hundred quid.
I just flick the switch on on an evening if I know it’s going to be freezing next day .
Stays warm for most of the day( no freezing pipes)
For me - this is the simplest most cost effective way of keeping your system winter proof.
Tris
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I’m going back to cold then after listening to this and I’m just going for a cold bath and clean the car and dishes in cold water sod this,who knows I might even crack my elderado tomorrow or 150 after 8-9hrs on the glass 😂 what a load of 💩
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I’m going back to cold then after listening to this and I’m just going for a cold bath and clean the car and dishes in cold water sod this,who knows I might even crack my elderado tomorrow or 150 after 8-9hrs on the glass 😂 what a load of 💩
;D ;D ;D
i think its much more important to have a heated drivers seat in my van than a hot water system these days nigel! ;D
yes i clean the van and car with cold pure and guess what?it takes the same time as with hot. ;)
...obviously i dont have a cold bath....that would be a stupid thing to do!
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
45degrees is just a warm bath everybody knows the sweet spot is 81.554958degrees, that's when the water becomes one with
the dirt.
;D ;D ;D
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Cold water is only better than hot when you can’t afford hot end of,bit like saying my old banger of a car gets me from A to B yeah it does but not in comfort and if truth be known you’d like a better car for that journey really if your honest. There’s more to life than money,well there has to be if you have no money doesn’t there 😂
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I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
Why don't you fit a tank and use red diesel, that's what I use to do. Red diesel you don't pay the tax on so will cut your costs down by roughly half
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I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
Why don't you fit a tank and use red diesel, that's what I use to do. Red diesel you don't pay the tax on so will cut your costs down by roughly half
Now that suggestion is a top idea!!
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I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
Why don't you fit a tank and use red diesel, that's what I use to do. Red diesel you don't pay the tax on so will cut your costs down by roughly half
The problem is red diesel kills the burner try google it red diesel in wabasto heaters makes for very Intresting reading most of the issues with problems with these heaters occurs in marine installations that run on red , I did consider this when I had it installed but was advised against it , the boiler is now 3 years old and is run for a minimum of 40 hours a week I think that’s over 6,000 hours run time ? Still running fine , don’t think it would do that on red , pity as you are right about half the cost
Now that suggestion is a top idea!!
I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
Why don't you fit a tank and use red diesel, that's what I use to do. Red diesel you don't pay the tax on so will cut your costs down by roughly half
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They cost very little to run if you have separate tank you’ll be able see how much they use over the course of the week it’s very little.
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They cost very little to run if you have separate tank you’ll be able see how much they use over the course of the week it’s very little.
I think it must be using at least 40 ltr per week 1.something lph or there about
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wow loads of heating engineers on here if they knew that much why are they cleaning windows and not fitting boilers earning much more money ?
You make a good point Deano!
Mind you at £400 a day it's pretty close.
Some earn that lying in bed with flu.
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I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
Why don't you fit a tank and use red diesel, that's what I use to do. Red diesel you don't pay the tax on so will cut your costs down by roughly half
Using red diesel will invalidate any warranty, at least that's what I was told when I had my 9kw webasto from Purefreedom.
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Red diesel will result in invalid warranties with PF or Grippatank
Mr B
I have a 9 kw wabasto system fitted by Grippatank it’s awsome but not cheap to run , we have 2 hose reels going all day if water isn’t going on the glass it’s returning to the tank by lunch time the tank is quite warm and we have a 1000 ltr system it’s not cheap to run though I put about £70 a week In Fuel in the vehicle tank cannot work out the mpg or how much the wabasto uses as it’s the same tank but at a guess I think it’s got to be 1 ltr per hour or maybe slightly more most of my work is close to home apart from the stuff we do In Bristol . Personally I would t go back to cold hot is quicker , better results don’t ask me why but it is used cold for 10 years then put a boiler in and finish is better better shine on the glass , we do loads of plastic cleans , industrial building wash downs , cladding, solar panels , time saving is very good on the very dirty stuff , we use it all year round and it’s running 8 hours a day minimum
Why don't you fit a tank and use red diesel, that's what I use to do. Red diesel you don't pay the tax on so will cut your costs down by roughly half
Using red diesel will invalidate any warranty, at least that's what I was told when I had my 9kw webasto from Purefreedom.
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Cold water is only better than hot when you can’t afford hot end of,bit like saying my old banger of a car gets me from A to B yeah it does but not in comfort and if truth be known you’d like a better car for that journey really if your honest. There’s more to life than money,well there has to be if you have no money doesn’t there 😂
i could easily go out tomorrow and spend 4k on a hot system but i just dont think the added benefits worth the cost.
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Hot not better than cold lol this just makes me smile forget the benefits of the actual cleaning results this time of year cold WFP hose like amour plated wire,brush hoses and brush bristles frozen alomost solid and cleaning results on frames and sills very very poor. Hot water is a pleasure to work with all year round but especially on cold days,if your moaning about hot being no better you’ve not used a hot system,and as for 80 odd degree water being needed lol it’s not 45-50 degree is more than adequate,we are cleaning Windows not car engines.
obviously having warm water on a cold day is nice but IMO its not worth the extra cost and extra faffing about.we hardly ever get any cold weather these days anyway.
also when i was using hot every day i never finished work earlier because i got round quicker.its a myth.i still clean 4 or 5 three bed semis an hour just like i did with hot.my larger jobs,again just as long to clean whether its hot or cold water.
the windows are just as clean too.you cant get cleaner than clean.hot water doesnt remove leaf stains,spider poo etc off frames either(just like cold doesnt).
How many threads in the past have said and especially so at winter; that they forget how good using hot water is! They aint talking just of the comfort aspect but also its efficiency. For you daz you feel you didnt finish any quicker than you do now using cold. Or is that just using tinted glasses etc. Bet one thing though, you expended less energy with hot water than you do with cold.
Probably most of us who are using hot also used cold as well first. So we know the difference and theres times when I forget to turn my heater on and its back to cold stiff hoses and extra scrubbing or soaking to get that stubborn bird crusted poop of the window. Or perhaps the slug/snail trails of the window
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I wouldn’t bother Nathan it’s like talking to teenagers they know it all unlike me I know everything 😂
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They cost very little to run if you have separate tank you’ll be able see how much they use over the course of the week it’s very little.
Make up your mind, your only after saying its only people who have money that can run hot systems. one minute you need to be
rich next it doesn't matter, one minute its a great job the next its melting concrete, this is way too confusing.
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Until last May I was a carpet cleaner who used a van based cleaning machine. In the van I had a 100 US gallon stainless steel water tank.
I used 3 methods of heating water, the tank had a 3kw element fitted I carried a diesel hotbox and more importantly the tank had a stainless steel heating coil inside, this coil connected with 10ft of 1inch radiator hose to the van engine cooling system (it had 2 T junctions on the inlet & outlet of the radiator) as I drove around from job to job the van engine would circulate the radiator water into the water tank coil
Sometimes I would preheat the water with the element in the night but usually just driving around gave me very hot water by the end of the day the tank would be scolding hot and would still Be hot the next day.
I’m making this post as I think this method of heating water is vastly underrated and relatively unknown, it cost me £140 to get a garage to professionally plumb the tank into the van and I Used it trouble free for 8yrs
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
Thanks for your input with regard diesel usage over a month. User experience is worth much more than written down theory.
I just used Webasto's figures of 0.59 liters of diesel an hour on full throttle. Webasto give 0.30 lph under reduced throttle. (I excluded the reduce heat consumption.
I worked on the assumption of 6 hours a day 5 days a week and 4 weeks a month = 70 liters using full heat mode. That's what my van's tank holds.
What tank do you use to fuel your heater NWH?
Thanks
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In my experience Spruce, you're not far off. I have a 25 ltr tank which I can get about 20 ltrs out of before it drops below the output level. I have to fill it about every 7 working days, so about 60 litres a month. That's running permanently, sometimes full blast, sometimes tickover with no bypass fitted. If I don't mix 4 litres kero in with the diesel its a disaster, smoke everywhere. I am running a thermo 90st though.
Your ST90 will use more diesel than the Thermo Top C . Webasto quote 1.1 lph on full heat mode, but on the lower heat cycle it could use much less than the Thermo Top C in the same heat mode (0.19 - 0.9 lph.)
I think the ST90 is more suited to window cleaning provided you can bleed that little extra heat off to stop it entering it stop/start cycle. If you have a 2 man system and there is only you, then you can run you second pump on slow and bleed that extra heat back to the tank. I have plans to add a third heat exchanger and trigger a third pump using a digital heat controller to do this.
What tank are you using? I think one of the problems is trying to find a suitable tank that has a fuel guage on it or that is opaque so you can see at a glance how much full you have left. If the unit locks out due to no fuel then it can be a palava getting it up and running.
Where do you buy Kerosene in small quantities from?
The tank came as part of the system from facelift, it's translucent so I can see when I need a refill. I'll take a pic and send it over if you would like?
At the moment I'm getting the kero from Homebase £7.99 for 4 litres. Obviously this isn't sustainable in the long run but after the smoking issues I was reluctant to buy a 200 ltr drum until I knew for sure what the issue was. I wonder if the system was setup to run on Kerosene and I didn't realise. Is it possible to have a different burner for kerosene and when I lumped diesel in on top, eventually the existing Kerosene wasn't diluting it enough hence the smoke?
Interesting you feel the 90ST is more suited. When you posted the links to refurb Thermotops I saved it in case I have any more problems with my ST. The full refurbed Thermo is almost the same price as a replacement burner in the 90st.
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They are around 3-4K to buy they cost little to run to run to run oh and to run I said.
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Complete rubbish a fuel tank worth of diesel to run a top C over a month lol,I use about £25 worth of diesel in a separate tank next to the heater every 4 weeks or so. You preheat as said on the way to the first job to get it up to temp and by doing this with the van running it uses no static battery power then,be careful on frosty mornings though mine was at 70degrees pre heated at the first job this morning dropping to around the 45-50 mark it was smoking off the glass no hiding your using hot water,hot water is the only way to WFP imo hot means cleaner Windows.
Thanks for your input with regard diesel usage over a month. User experience is worth much more than written down theory.
I just used Webasto's figures of 0.59 liters of diesel an hour on full throttle. Webasto give 0.30 lph under reduced throttle. (I excluded the reduce heat consumption.
I worked on the assumption of 6 hours a day 5 days a week and 4 weeks a month = 70 liters using full heat mode. That's what my van's tank holds.
What tank do you use to fuel your heater NWH?
Thanks
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In my experience Spruce, you're not far off. I have a 25 ltr tank which I can get about 20 ltrs out of before it drops below the output level. I have to fill it about every 7 working days, so about 60 litres a month. That's running permanently, sometimes full blast, sometimes tickover with no bypass fitted. If I don't mix 4 litres kero in with the diesel its a disaster, smoke everywhere. I am running a thermo 90st though.
Your ST90 will use more diesel than the Thermo Top C . Webasto quote 1.1 lph on full heat mode, but on the lower heat cycle it could use much less than the Thermo Top C in the same heat mode (0.19 - 0.9 lph.)
I think the ST90 is more suited to window cleaning provided you can bleed that little extra heat off to stop it entering it stop/start cycle. If you have a 2 man system and there is only you, then you can run you second pump on slow and bleed that extra heat back to the tank. I have plans to add a third heat exchanger and trigger a third pump using a digital heat controller to do this.
What tank are you using? I think one of the problems is trying to find a suitable tank that has a fuel guage on it or that is opaque so you can see at a glance how much full you have left. If the unit locks out due to no fuel then it can be a palava getting it up and running.
Where do you buy Kerosene in small quantities from?
The tank came as part of the system from facelift, it's translucent so I can see when I need a refill. I'll take a pic and send it over if you would like?
At the moment I'm getting the kero from Homebase £7.99 for 4 litres. Obviously this isn't sustainable in the long run but after the smoking issues I was reluctant to buy a 200 ltr drum until I knew for sure what the issue was. I wonder if the system was setup to run on Kerosene and I didn't realise. Is it possible to have a different burner for kerosene and when I lumped diesel in on top, eventually the existing Kerosene wasn't diluting it enough hence the smoke?
Interesting you feel the 90ST is more suited. When you posted the links to refurb Thermotops I saved it in case I have any more problems with my ST. The full refurbed Thermo is almost the same price as a replacement burner in the 90st.
I said that because the ST90 has more fire power as its a bigger heater. On reduced heat mode it also produces less heat so it takes longer in reduced heat mode to reach max temperature before the heater shuts down
The ST90 also has provision to achieve 3 different programmed heat setting by how you deal with pin 7 on the X12 connector.
The difference between putting a 12v supply to that pin or connecting it up to negative could mean the heater running 8 degrees hotter.
The Thermo Top C was designed as a 'basic' engine preheater. Put it on 30 minutes before you set off and you will have a defrosted car when you set off. It heats the coolant water in the engine and once it reach 30 degrees it switches on the cars internal heater blower. Once the engine's temperature reaches 74 degrees it goes into half heat mode. At 77 degrees it switches off and the heater goes into its shut down cycle. Once you understand that then you should be able to work out how best you can work with it.
NWH has found the best way of keeping his Thermo Top C working. Don't stop to talk and when travelling between jobs have the hot water that normal goes to your brush recycling back to the tank.
If you can put a photo up of your fuel tank that would be appreciated.
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I found this video on YouTube last night. The issues he had can be similar to the issues people have with Wabesto heaters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrfEuQKBIM
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Spruce that’s interesting what you say about that pin having 12v put through it I’ve been looking to do this to mine as I’ve been told you can set it up through initial wiring.
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As soon as I get back to the van I plug it into the tank so the heater thinks it’s still having to work,I turn the flow down to 10 this enables the water temperature to climb back up to 60-70degrees when driving to the next job.
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As soon as I get back to the van I plug it into the tank so the heater thinks it’s still having to work,I turn the flow down to 10 this enables the water temperature to climb back up to 60-70degrees when driving to the next job.
So what have you done different or added to your thermo pro that is different to the standard package you can buy ( i dont mean from wfp suppliers) but the actual heater?
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Until last May I was a carpet cleaner who used a van based cleaning machine. In the van I had a 100 US gallon stainless steel water tank.
I used 3 methods of heating water, the tank had a 3kw element fitted I carried a diesel hotbox and more importantly the tank had a stainless steel heating coil inside, this coil connected with 10ft of 1inch radiator hose to the van engine cooling system (it had 2 T junctions on the inlet & outlet of the radiator) as I drove around from job to job the van engine would circulate the radiator water into the water tank coil
Very good idear free hot water , but if you are parked up and only travel a short distance to your work it won’t work unfortunately
Sometimes I would preheat the water with the element in the night but usually just driving around gave me very hot water by the end of the day the tank would be scolding hot and would still Be hot the next day.
I’m making this post as I think this method of heating water is vastly underrated and relatively unknown, it cost me £140 to get a garage to professionally plumb the tank into the van and I Used it trouble free for 8yrs
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What happens if your tank is baffled as far as the element inside it goes.