[Simon Gerrard]

Pete,

There's nothing personal about it. We just see things from a different angle. Where I think you begin to look at little foolish (but only in my opinion) is where you start making sweeping judgements about training courses in this country and then go on to claim that we are a laughing stock in the states for our poor training, what a load of baloney. To make such a sweeping statement I'm assuming that you have personally attended all of the available course in this country and are therefore speaking from experience. Or are you just calling them all black in order to create a business opportunity for yourself, which in my view is pretty much what you're about.

Simon

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Personal attacks aside, there is no doubt that the current lack of structure to CC courses has left a gap/vacuum to be filled by a forward looking organisation.

At present a lot of courses are supplier led and this leads to some fairly dubious claims and drives a lot away from seeking a more technical approach.

From many of the comments I have received  in the past few years I believe there is a genuine thirst for more knowledge, but it will require a lot of hard work to produce really useful courses.

One of the troubles with CC, is that many are so busy working they just do not have the time to spend in either constructing or attending courses.

I have thought for some time an organisation where membership grade is enhanced by course credits, could result in a much more professional image for the CC industry.

What do you guys think ?

Cheers

Doug

[derek west]

if those grades were recognised by the customer then yes, but if we have to explain to the customer how good our grade is then we might aswell make one up and save the money.

the ncca is a grade, seems pointless going for a grade 1 or gold ncca badge if we allready struggle getting the custy to recognise ncca in the first place. can you see my point, or is it just the way my trousers ruck up

derek

[Simon Gerrard]

Doug,
As I suspected, this is a sales pitch! It's not that I'm against people coming up with new things, what I don't like is people taking a cheap shot at some very well respected individuals and companies that have helped train literally generations of highly successful carpet cleaners, merely to carve themselves what they hope will be a niche to create interest in whatever they have to offer, which to me is just plain old cheap.
Some of the best trainers in the world, either reside on these shores or have visited these shores to spread their knowledge and yet someone with a couple of blinks worth of experience dares to call their efforts over decades  'a Toilet,' which is in my view shameful and deeply disrespectful. If you want to start a new course, fine, do it. but why not just say, 'Look, guys' here's something new that you might want to try' instead of badmouthing courses you probably have never been on.

It's all very well setting up training courses, but don't you need professional trainers to conduct them and not people who merely aspire to make a quick buck from something they know nothing about (training, I mean).

Carpet cleaning is not rocket science, it is the application of some fairly straightforward basic principles and techniques that haven't and probably won't change - ever.

There is no such thing as the definitive training course, a one size fits all course and I would recommend to anyone that they attend as many courses as they possibly can. Some, like the NCCA course I attended will be awful, but you still come away from even them having learned something, or having reinforced something basic that you may have forgotten. Doing many course, or a variety of courses is the key and it is not just the courses where you learn, you also learn from the people on the courses and pick up snippets of information that help you in some way or other.

You may well come up with a course that is different to others, that covers different things in different ways, but I doubt you will come up with one better than a variety of courses, taken over a period of time.

Simon

[derek west]

prochem 2 day, excellent

ncca 2 day, excellent

ncca advanced spot and stain, excellent

cleansmart upholstery 1 day, excellent

iicrc leather, excellent

ltt 4 day, excellent

haven't got a bad word to say about the training in britain.

can't see how anyone can say there rubbish, cos there not, simples.

i'm now looking for an odour removal course so i can be more exact with the custy rather than saying i'll give it ago.

derek

[Mike Osbourne]

I think 'The Prince' should be compulsory reading for anyone who joins this forum. To think it was just about carpet cleaning. :

[Simon Gerrard]

Well said, Derek. And well done for showing that level of commitment.
Variety is the key. No one course can teach you all you need to know, simples!

By-the-way, if anyone wonders why I am fuming at the suggestion that CC training in this country is 'a toilet,' is because I and many hundreds, perhaps even thousands of now very successful people were trained by the father of modern carpet cleaning in this country, Mr Ron Tilley, the former Managing Director of Prochem and before that the Managing Director of Servicemaster UK, someone without whom we may not have a carpet cleaning business to speak about today were it not for his efforts spread over many decades in this industry. Don't you dare sully his name, or his efforts simply to make a cheap buck, when all you know about carpet cleaning can be easily written on the back of a stamp.

Simon

[Simon@arenaclean]

Hi Guys

Personal attacks aside, there is no doubt that the current lack of structure to CC courses has left a gap/vacuum to be filled by a forward looking organisation.

At present a lot of courses are supplier led and this leads to some fairly dubious claims and drives a lot away from seeking a more technical approach.

From many of the comments I have received  in the past few years I believe there is a genuine thirst for more knowledge, but it will require a lot of hard work to produce really useful courses.

One of the troubles with CC, is that many are so busy working they just do not have the time to spend in either constructing or attending courses.

I have thought for some time an organisation where membership grade is enhanced by course credits, could result in a much more professional image for the CC industry.

What do you guys think ?

Cheers

Doug

Doug, yes we are busy but course dates are known well in advance, we all find the time to do what we want to do. I also agree with Derek, any organisation which grades it's members must be recognised by the public as a standard. I hate to say it but just like Corgi. Any supplier would then have to provide training within a structure that could be judged and accredited with National recognition by an organising body. Whilst higher education might be in a mess an 'A' Level or a Degree/honours are recognised by everyone as attainment to a level than all can judge. Unless we reach that goal as an industry standard we may benefit personally with additional knowledge but my customers can only judge me by my reputation and quality of work, which leads to more recommendations. That's how we build a business. So we need an independent funded organisation that will provide a national qualification or grade to which it's members are answerable. In my time I have been a motor engineer and attained a City and Guilds qualification which some will still remember, I guess NVQ's are today's C&G's and it may be a place to start. Lets not forget this has been discussed before on various threads and the answer is still a long way off, but I agree there is a need, getting everyone to join and be a collective organisation is another matter entirely.

Simon

[Shaun_Ashmore]

I think I'd been in the trade for about 7 or 8 years before I did any kind of training course which was IICRC.

Shaun

[Simon Gerrard]

Simon,
I agree with that.
I think the problem here is that whatever Messrs Sweeney, Holloway and others have in mind for this new association they are putting together is that they are putting it together in secret and are not willing to discuss the format with anyone outside their inner circle. What will eventually emerge from all this cloak and dagger stuff is something WE, the carpet cleaning fraternity don't want, which is another association foisted upon us in a take it or leave it format, which is what we have at the moment, it's called the NCCA.
What I fear is that whatever lies hidden under the covers is something that has far more to do with the founders pockets than it has the collective good of the carpet cleaning industry.
If all were as it should be and genuine change was afoot then why the lack of discussion and consultation on the subject and without that input from the very people who will either make or break whatever scheme is put before us, what chance has it of succeeding. The primary reason for disaffection with the NCCA is it's at arms length dealings with its own members, but here we go again, or so it seems. Let's hope I'm wrong.

Simon

[Doug Holloway]

Simon,

You certainly know a lot more about this new organisation than me !

This cynical attitude that everything has to be about money is depressing but reflects current society, but I remain positive that with greater knowledge, more widely available it will be possible to put together  structured technical CC courses which will benefit all who take part.

I certainly wouldn't be put off by the knockers, well not until they've got something to knock anyway.

Cheers

Doug

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Simon haven't you tried to start your own association twice?one being Truckmounters and the other was on Cleantalk years ago??

Shaun

[Simon Gerrard]

Doug,
Pete took what I class as a cheap shot at EVERY training course and thereby every trainer in this country, in effect calling them ALL, 'a toilet.'
Don't you think it just a tad odd that the majority of the people who currently enjoy success in this industry went through those so called 'Toilets' to learn the basic skills that took them to where they are today?

If you guy's have a different format, or something new to offer, that's fine, tell us about it. But please don't belittle yourselves by casting aspersions on the talents of those you have yet to match, let alone surpass.

Simon

[Paul_Ashworth]

Simon,
Why do you think the likes of Prochem offer training courses, do you think they care about peoples carpets / upholstery, they dont even care about there own aftersales / care

They provide the Training for one reason only. Its to sell Chemicals which is the main part of there business and which they probably make the most money on which is why we are all in business.

[Simon Gerrard]

Shaun,

When Glyhn and I first took over TruckMounters we did think through the idea of starting an association, indeed we did, The Truck Mounted Carpet Cleaners Association to which all TruckMounters members became members.
Derek started a thread about a new association not long ago and his ideas were not that far from ours at the time. Thinking the issues through we quickly concluded that without a lot of money and time we simply couldn't deliver sufficient benefits to our potential members in the short term to justify the membership fees. If you look back to that topic you will see my comments regarding that.

Any association, especially a new one has to be inclusive and it has to embody the aspirations of its members. Most potential members would be looking to get a return on their outlay in terms of business, either directly, or indirectly, in other words, 'what's in it for me.'
You simply cannot begin to deliver on those aspirations if you are not even prepared to discuss the would be format of any new association with the people who will become its life blood. Developing these things under the veil of secrecy and simply launching it when you're good an ready risks severely restricting its appeal and it is that I am against, not the idea, which I think is a good one.

Simon

[Simon Gerrard]

Paul,
If you say so, buddy.

Simon

[will01]

Major Clean up (Or Simon)

Take a chill pill 

Your post regarding Ron Tilley reminded of that "Inspiritional" speech during the movie Independence day when the president gets up infront of his minnions and utters the immortal words "We will not go quietly into the night!!"

It made me want to get my wand out and slay a few Belgian Wiltons

[Simon@arenaclean]

I've done a few courses and I don't recall any trainer advocating a contrary view to the fundamentals of fibre identification, carpet construction or the basic cleaning method. It's a platform from which to start. I'm sure the NCCA was founded on the highest ideals............ Sorry I was just going to go over old ground which is all rather pointless which is why we as an industry are so frustrated. Mrs Jones would not consider having some maverick fit her £3000 boiler, but Mrs Jones' carpets could be worth at least that and all she has is an advert, a website or a recommendation and I can only do so much in re-assurance that I am up to the job. As professionals we take ourselves seriously but do the general public. Another thread is discussing fast track and I realised that we might not be the first option the public think of. Normally it's the hire shop or something under the sink! Until we move on from last choice to first choice we have a problem and that is the challenge to any organisation hoping to represent our view and standards to our potential customers. Look at this About Corgi web page, http://www.trustcorgi.com/AboutCorgi/Pages/Home.aspx sorry to use this as an example but frankly that's what we need and by reading that I can see the problem we face. I'd like to be in a position when a customer calls to be embarrassed if asked if I am a member of 'The Guild Of Master Carpet Cleaners' (example) to say no I am not. the problem is as independent owners and thinkers we can be worlds apart but nothing can change the fundamentals I opened with. It seems dated now but people new to the business could do a lot worse than read this book http://www.cresta-books.co.uk/fundamentals.htm If we can agree the fundamentals we have a foundation for British carpet cleaners. FBCC even sounds posh!

[Peter Sweeney]

An association should put its customers first not its members. This simple ideology is where the NCCA have failed.

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Simon G

Why don't you wait and see what is on offer before critiscising, you may find you like it.

It is rather silly at this stage to say too much  as there is not much to say!

However there will be and planning is important, if any credibility is going to be achieved. I would encourage all to have a positive attitude and lets see where we can go.

Pete is quite a visionary in these things and with the greatest respect to Ron Tilley, he was almost certainly young and dynamic once.

Simon Arena, you are write about fundamentals, they should not be ignored but do change, afterall we thought time was linear and the earth was flat.

Cheers

doug