[stuart_clark]

I am thinking about buying one, most of my work is comercial maitenace low profile wotk

Does anyone have one ?

[AshWhite]

Paul Moss does.

[lee_gundry]

yes n its good

Lee G

[Paul Moss]

Stu, i would not buy one. Too many people are buying them now .

[stuart_clark]

are they any good though? do they clean any better than a rotary

[Jamie Pearson]

I have one. Obviously. They are faster than a rotary.

I will have one at the TACCA day to play with if you want to try it onsite.

[stuart_clark]

Why are they Faster? thought there was a lot of pulling and pushing withy an Orbital where as a rotary moves a lot easier !

[Jamie Pearson]

They spray for starters saving you the prespray stage.

It takes a bit of getting used to, just like the cimex walking forward rather than swinging the machine.

After a couple of shifts you get used to it.

Its a lot less effort too.

[stuart_clark]

thanks for your help on that, I have a couple of Chemspec Chemstractors which also have the Spray on the front of the Rotary

[Jamie Pearson]

Great machines in their day.

I have 6 of the 20" Rotobrite versions of the machine.

[Paul Moss]

I find they lift the pile more than a rotary and clean better.

[stuart_clark]

I think thats realy what i wanted to hear, the fact the clean better, I too have a 21inch rota brite machine, its good but a bit clumsy but good on big jobs

[Paul Moss]

We have anumber of big commercial contracts and for years used a heated bonnet system on them, it took two of us ,one to prespray and one to bonnett. Now one person can do it because of the onboard sprayer. We have only used the Hbot for about 5 months but so far it is doing the jobs faster and the results are defo better. I also think the results are better because of the chemical change to.

[Len Gribble]

Silly me and there was me thinking prespray needed dwell time 

[Paul Moss]

Not encap chems Len 

[Jamie Pearson]

Paul is right.

Some are better suited to machines with mounted sprayers than others.

The ones I know of designed specifically for this are Environ, Releasit Punch, Karchaer iCapsol and Chemspecs Rotobrite/Rotobrite 2.

These products have higher surfactant levels than others available and are zero dwell time.

[stuart_clark]

Paul
so what type of Encap   if any do you use mate ?

[derek west]

surely encap chems have the longest dwell time of all considering its not actually extracted out.

[Jamie Pearson]

Looking at it that way it should be hwe rinse detergent as they take longer to dry.

[Paul Moss]

 Stuart I used to use rotobrite with the heated bonnet system but  with the h bot i prefere either Environ, releasit punch and dynamall dependent on what im working on.

[stuart_clark]

Paul
I used to use rotabrite heated up with Energiser in it, but lately ive been using Dynamal and getting good results! Havn't heard of the others! where do you get them from ?

[Paul Moss]

Buy them here

http://www.cleaningsystems.co.uk/section/151/1/encap_carpet_cleaners

[james roffey]

I like the encap products but the dilution rates make it really expensive stuff to use compared to say Pureclean or SPM

[Paul Moss]

Environ has a good ratio

[Jamie Pearson]

Pureclean and SPM are good products for removing soil from the fibres. You then have to get that soil out of the carpet.

This requires multiple bonnets at a cost of £20+ each or the wringing and cleaning of them as you go.
I believe you need to have dry bonnets to get good "extraction" from the carpet and we would used to take 50+ of the green striped versions to site and change them every 2 litres of product. Then have 2 washing machines running all day to clean them for the next shift.

With an Encap product you only need 1 agitation pad/bonnet (whichever suits the task).
The result of this is ultimately lower cost due to increased productivity and lower investment which offsets the material cost.

Some products also have protector included which you dont get with SPM & Pureclean.
Not an essential requirement unless you are doing a maintenance contract.

As Paul states Environ works at a dilutions up to 1:128 thats less than 8p per made up litre and you can clean a lot of carpet with using only a litre of made up solution.

[james roffey]

That is an impressive ratio, thanks.

Also some interesting thoughts about methods very helpful, i do very little rotary work and if i am honest still struggling to achieve the results i want with it, so am still in the experimenting stages to find the right combination, the best i have found is Craftex catalyst which was a good result but ridiculously expensive to use. so may try this but as you say if it's less work with these products then than should be used in the equation.

I have a new rotary arriving on Monday i opted for onboard tank as i thought an encap would work best applying as you go, am i right in thinking this ?

[Jamie Pearson]

Are you coming to the TACCA day James? Its easier to show these things than explain them.

A tank is okay but can be difficult to get a good distribution of product using gravity feed.

I used Craftex Catalyst briefly with our Dry Fusion system in an attempt to make it as profitable as the system we were using at that time before we sold it on.

It was slightly cheaper than their Activator with very similar results on a maintenance project.

Fusion Clean from Solutions is also in the same ball park.

[stuart_clark]

James
You should try the Dynamall its realy good stuff although a bit pricey , its Boosted with an Oxy solution and is Brilliant on tea and coffee stains

[james roffey]

Just done some calculations on Environ, the ratio on Amtecs site is 1-32 for heavy soiling even at that rate it works out 32 pence per litre of prespray and less than 10 pence per litre on normal soiling, which is very economical.
How good is this product though ? i assume Fusion clean is an Encap too, i asked if it was on cleantalk and got no response, i have used Fusion clean cant say it blew me away though.

[Jamie Pearson]

It is a bonnet cleaner that contains a copolymer for protection.

[*Hector*]

James.... the thing with fusion clean is that you have to mix it at twice the strength it says on the bottle.

I am testing out environ at the moment and it is working better than fusion clean in my opinion, just mixed at the recommended rates.

[stuart_clark]

I have been using fusion clean for about five years and average about two hundred litres a year but to  get a decent clean you need to mix at about 10 to 1

[Len Gribble]

What’s the best vacuum cleaner for post cleaning presumably you do (as recommend re encap)

Thought Roto Brite II is non-surfactant

[james roffey]

10/1 that's expensive to use in my opinion, If Environ is good as Hector suggests and the strongest dilution for heavy soiling is 1/32 then thats more like it, some of the other encap products on the link in this thread are about the same dilution rate also, releasit is 1/32 i have heard that is very good

[Mike Halliday]

The way I see it is the people who design these chemicals must know that cost will be an important factor to the end user, and the cost is a direct link to the dilution rate.

If they make a chemical which requires a dilution rate of 10-1 then they must have a bloody good reason for it,

I hate to say it but if you get a chemical that requires 10-1 to effectively clean a carpet then there must be a reason for it, they know they will have to compete with the 30-1 dilution chemicals... They would be mad to try and compete unless they had a reason and this must be ...... in their opinion to make a chemical to do the job it requires a strength of 10% concentrate.

I bet dynamall would love to say 30-1 and they could if they wanted, but they have been honest and said to clean a carpet they need 10-1

We have already seen the alternative mentioned where a supplier tries to impress us with a high dilution rate (so tries to kid us its cheap to use) but the end users are telling us it needs to be double what it says on the container

[james roffey]

Really good point Mike i can see the logic.

BUT when i started i used a lot of Prochem chemicals one i used was their acid rinse, i found myself going through a hell of a lot of this because the dilution rate was stupid i told the supplier i used and the Prochem salesman when i met him.
I shopped around and found "final phase" an acid rinse that cost a fraction of the cost of the Prochem stuff an amount that would barely fill an eggcup was enough for a full solution tank on my machine. You may well be right but some very good Encap products may also have good dilution rates, maybe thats why i did not get on too well with Fusion clean it was alright no better no worse than MPower, Pureclean etc. so its interesting to see peoples experiences of all these Encap products.

Ps i know M Power isn't an Encap but it's not bad for bonneting

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Mpower is good for bonneting but I do find that an encapsulation cleaner is better.

Shaun

[*Hector*]

Mpower is good for bonneting but I do find that an encapsulation cleaner is better.

Shaun

I agree Shaun. I have also bonnetted with HD, but I prefer bonnetting with an encap

[mark_roberts]

Anyone every seen or reckon it could be done, to put a pump and spray jets onto a cimex machine.  I like the machine but hate the solution delivery system.

Also I've a job this week a big leak from a roof onto carpet tile 2 months ago.  Would usually extract but would encap method work?

Thanks
Mark

[Jamie Pearson]

Cimex (before Truvox acquired them) used to make exactly that model. It was a Japan exports machine but we had one. I have all the bits to build it from the left over spares they had. Just not got round to it.

[Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning]

Does anyone know any info on the spray kit for an Orbis 200? As in, what do you get in the kit, is it an electric pump etc

[Jamie Pearson]

The Truvox spray kit is basically a 1.5 litre pressure sprayer and is designed for applying floor maintainer to floors.

I believe Solutions did a kit for an Orbis. It may have been made by Hydramaster.

[Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning]

Cheers, much appreciated.  will ask the question.

[stuart_clark]

Paul
How good is the release it Encap ? Looking on the website the DS encap looks good? but the environ has a better  dilution ratio but does it work as well? with respect i dont realy want to hear answers from suppliers as its in there interest to sell there chemicals and promote them, and for that reason i would like to hear from cleaners that are using the stuff! I currently use Solutions fusion clean, Chemspec Rotabrite, and Dynamal

[garry22]

Stuart,

I started "Encapping" back in October with a secondhand Cimex. I've used Releaseit DS2 and Basic and got fantastic results from both.

I have one commercial job that is done every six months. I did it in October and am due to do it again shortly.

I say do it again but that's not really the case. I have been told that the upstairs offices (about 2/3 rds of the job) will not need to be done as they still look fine! That was done with basic and the occasional pre spray of Encap Punch (only the heavily soiled areas).

[Paul Moss]

Stuart, they all work well, but i dont like the double concentrate one, i prefer the punch. For routine work ( med soilage) my favourite is environ. It has great dilution rates, removes 95% of stains and has a nice medium strength smell.

[*Hector*]

I have just recently changed from fusion clean to environ. It works just the same if not slightly better, and it has a much better dilution rate to work, than fusion clean.

If that makes sense.

[Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning]

I've only used Surround Ultra, nice smell, does the job damn well from my point of view. But i'm not an encap veteran....YET!

[james roffey]

Going to use the last of my Craftex catalyst today, the dilution rate is 250 ml per litre of prespray and it cost about £30 for 5 litres, i just think that is very expensive for prespray.

PS The truvox spray kit is nothing more than a pump up sprayer and a plastic pipe, A better method would be a small electric pump running off a solution tank already fitted to the rotary, anyone done this ?

[Andrew@Approved Carpet Cleaning]

James, i'm looking at doing that with mine. Bit like whats on the h bot. So would be interested if any one has done this or knows what we will need.

[Paul Moss]

Paul and Garry

I clean 45 specsaver stores every three months and soil levels range from minging depending where they are situated , and some that are just lightly soiled as they tend to be located in indoor shopping centres and most of the foot soil is walkied off before the customers enter the shops! I basicaly need a high performance encap with a nice smell, dont realy care what the stuff costs or the dilution rates, I always gone for performance of chemical and the odour it leaves! The Fusion clean from solutions only works if you mix it strong ie 10/1 but then the fumes from it gets in the back of your throat and similar with Dynamal

Stuart I do 2 specsavers, i don't know if they are similar carpet tiles to the ones you clean, I extract mine with a rx every 12 months. If i was bonnetting them every 3 months then i would use environ.

[stuart_clark]

Paul
They are all the same mate! Green tiles made by Gaskells about £16 per tile £73 a sq mtre thats why i clean them so often, they need cleaning at least three monthly intervalls twelve monthly is far too long

[Carpet Dawg]

how often do you have to change the pad on the SprayBorg? Obviously depends on how dirty the carpet is but roughly? an hours with of bonneting? can you ring it out and use it again or should it be totaly dry?

[Jamie Pearson]

Dry pads absorb the moisture better than re-rung pads however if you are using an Encap product the absorption is not as critical as if you were using a cleaner.
I generally swap them out every half a bottle of product.
As you rightly say it does depend on the soil level.
Most of my work is on carpet tiles so I tend to use the Agiclean/Fiberplus pads which are agitation only and let the Encap do the rest.

[Paul Moss]

Paul
They are all the same mate! Green tiles made by Gaskells about £16 per tile £73 a sq mtre thats why i clean them so often, they need cleaning at least three monthly intervalls twelve monthly is far too long

What you clean them every 3 months because they are 73quid a sq metre

Naa Stu full extraction with the truck and a spinner takes all the poope out of them, they are one of the few h/d tiles thatbwill take the stick and also give the muck up easilly. Tbh my stores still look pretty good then i get to them 12 months later and oneis in a shooping centre with very heavy foot fall. The chewy is normally the biggest prob but my little machine has that stuff off in seconds 

[stuart_clark]

When i first started cleaning the middlesbrough branch twenty years ago, we cleaned them every six weeks! the very first time we cleaned the shop it was inondated with chewing gum and it took hours just to remove that! think it took us about five hours! that was two of us with two extraction machines, Since 98 we have cleaned them using Encap but on at three monthly basis! the fact you have only cleaned there carpets every twelve months have now invaladeted the warantee with the carpet company! I am suprised gurnsey havent sacked you? they obviously dont know ! or the branches that you clean are very greedy, but by not sticking to the rules of the maintenance contrct they have shot themselves in the foot realy I am one of Gurnsey aproved opperators and thats why i clean so many

[Paul Moss]

Hours to remove chewy and 2 of you 5 hours to clean a shop  with 2 machines was that with the full 50 psi . Get real man.
A Warrenty on a commercial high synthetic carpet tile, with high foot fall, really...
Stu cleaned these for about 5 years with no probs of payment from Guernsey.
Most of the spec savers are changing the ratio over more to wood now any way.
Do you do the wood as well on contract ?

I must phone them up and get all the contracts as you must be costing them a fortune.

[stuart_clark]

Paul
It took two of us to revove the chewing gum from, what was the biggest store in the uk at that time! but the overall clean took five hours! and yes you are probably right about the 50 psi but that was then as i said 20 yrs ago
We clean the carpets every three months to preserve the carpet not just to clean!  If  you leave carpets a full twelve months without cleaning with all that foot traffic think of all that damage to the tiles You obviously dont do much maintenance cleaning! If you did you would know that a twelve month clean is a corrective clean and not a maintenance clean and leaving carpets that long before cleaning advances iriversasable damage to the carpet tiles! and no machine in the world however powerfull can correct that

[stuart_clark]

Paul
Forgot to say mate
Ring Guernsey and ask for Shaun williams ! he is the operations Director and tell him how you bragg about only cleaning there instalations only once a year !!  It will be the last ever time you do a specsavers ! i will put money on it

[Paul Moss]

Stu , Shaun is my brother in law  he is down this easter so i will have a chat 

Of course I shall mention you.

[Paul Moss]

LOL get your wallet out big boy....

Oh did you say you had 42 of them... lets see.

[simon de-lacey]

Just imagine having all that power.......

ZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[Paul Moss]

   Got Stuart off his high horse though.

[jasonl]

When I was A CD I cleaned Middlesbrough and Stockton specsavers, from 93-01 , my wife at the times Uncle owned them , they are franchises, and payment was made locally .


I cleaned every 12 weeks with a buffer.

From 95 it was rx 20 and well underpowered single vac portable.

[Paul Moss]

Yep they are still franchises, some single and some multi but invoices/payment comes from Guernsey.

[stuart_clark]

YOu were a Cross dresser were you Jason? You diddnt clean middlesbrough specsavers the dates you gave! Ive been cleaning Middlesbrough specsavers since 1995 and can easily be proven if you realy want to look stupid ?

[stuart_clark]

The Directors at middlesbrough I know personally and dont know you as ive just been talking to them ?

[jasonl]

I did go in after you stuart when you drove a peugeot 405 estate ,and did recleans.

[stuart_clark]

Jason
You talk a load of SH===

[stuart_clark]

The real Truth about Middlesbrough Specsavers is, They just were not happy with the Chem Dry franchise that used to clean there carpets and that is why they Kicked them out! the Directors were never happy with the cleaning results and always complained that they never reomoved the chewing gum on the carpet!

I on the other hand have been cleaning there carpets on a regular Maintenance basis since, and acording to my records is April 1995

I have never cleaned the stockton branch and have no wish to as acess is bad

I was recomended to the Perkins group in 2000 to be an aproved  contractor and that is the Storey so far! I clean accross the country and cover 150 mile radias

[mark_roberts]

Ive always wondered what % of information one can trust on these boards and this board especially.

My doubts now seem to be well founded.

Mark

[Steve Gunn]

What's the difference between the org and the dynamax apart from the price?

http://www.dynamall.co.uk/the-dynamax-W21page-21-

[Paul Moss]

The dynanamx is a numatic slow speed buffer with a sprayer attachment, the hbot is an oscilator.

[Mike Halliday]

They have done what I suggested the other day, just fitted a small  pump and a flexible jet on the front., they say it can be permanently on spray sounds as they must have wired the pump into the power cord leading to the motor, so. Pulling the trigger sends power to the  pump and starts the machine

[stuart_clark]

Certainly not worth a grand plus vat imo

[Carpet Dawg]

So are these claims "250 - 300 sq meters per hour" realistic?  with these type of machines?

That machine looks like a poor mans version of the Orbot. I'm sure it does a good job though.

[Paul Moss]

Stuart, my appologies for my arsey comments earlier in the thread.

[Jamie Pearson]

So are these claims "250 - 300 sq meters per hour" realistic?  with these type of machines?

That machine looks like a poor mans version of the Orbot. I'm sure it does a good job though.

That kind of productivity can be achieved on a maintenance visit.

[stuart_clark]

Paul
Its ok mate I know you are only trying to wind my up! Its just i take my specsavers maintenance cleans very seriously as they are a majer client of mine

Stuart

[Paul Moss]

Stu, i know you do and i actually know you do an excellent job, some times when im in p taking mood i go too far, and after reading back that was the case,sorry mate.
Having said that your still an ugly git 

[Billy Russell]

Stu, i know you do and i actually know you do an excellent job, some times when im in p taking mood i go too far, and after reading back that was the case,sorry mate.
Having said that your still an ugly git 

At least he's not Ginger!!!
 
 

[AshWhite]

Jamie, do you sell any spray kits which can be attached to a rotary? Preferably which could be wired to run off power instead of pump up.

[Jamie Pearson]

Nothing ready to be sold just yet. Might bring a proto. To the TACCA day for some feedback.