[ColinD]

Being new to this forum has just confirmed to me why we as an industry, are perceived as being at the bottom of the food chain.

Yesterday, for example, somebody advocated the use of a Tesco's product for commercial cleaning. Someone else suggested Viakal! WHAT! Where is the professional? Can you walk into Tescos and ask for CoSHH on any of their products? Does Viakal come with a CoSHH data sheet attached. I do not think so! So you take your Tescos product onto site, and give it to cleaner who promptly uses it  on an area where she/he has just used the most dangerous product within the cleaning business, BLEACH, and the next thing you know you have a chemical reaction, possible chlorine gas and turn the lights out!

Come on, be serious. No wonder we, as an industry, are the laughing stockof other industries. Where are the professional? Quote a contract? Are we still using the back of a fAg packet. Do we include, in our costings, an allowance for training, for innovation. No, because all we are interested in is ensuring that we Cut The Cost to Win The Contract and hope we can cover the add ons as and when required. Hopefully not getting caught by the powers that be in the process. H & S - DWP - Home Office. The list goes on.

Minimum wage goes up as of 1st October, how many of you, so called professionals, costed this in a year ago? It was flagged up, by Government, over a year ago, but only confirmed this year. What impact will that have on your profitability, or will you have to go back, cap in hand, and ask the client for more money, thereby raising the spector of a possible "out to tender" scenario.

It's about time. we, the individual cleaning companies started to work together to improve not only the the status of the Industry but the staus of the people that make our industry possible and viable. The Cleaning staff.

Please do not mention trade bodies. BICSc - CCA - et al. Once they become "accepted" they become to a greater or lesser degree a part of the problem.

Well I've started the ball rolling. As the AOL advert says: Discuss!

As a small note: I have been in the industry 30 years, there have been some improvements, but still anybody, but anybody, can set themselves up as a cleaning company and in doing so perpetuate the poor image that the industry has suffered and still suffers from.

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Hi Colin,

and welcome 

So how do you suggest we work together?

Regards Rob.

[Tim Downer]

    

Where did that attack come from??

Thought you would want to be in the same boat as the rest of us??

I think as a newbie to this forum, that you would have trawled through the pages of "discussions" we have had.....and you would have found the answers to all you questions.....

i.e going into tesco and asking for a COSHH data sheet for Viakil when you purchase it etc etc

The only thing i will slightly agree on is that the cleaning industry can be perceived as being at the bottom of the food chain.......but only because of the cowboys out there cutting the prices right down, so that the only way they can make money is to cut back on staffing and the service originally quoted for and promised.......thus letting the industry down.

But hey......good for them. 

However, you will not find the likes of those here on this forum, because we all are professionals, whether we have 100 staff or more, or have only just started out on our own.....and have come here to gain the experience from the rest of us professionals. It is up to us to raise that standard for our customers by educating them in our professionalism etc and our service.....as has also been discussed on many previous boards.

So what do you suggest we do then Colin to inmprove on the slating you have given to the folks on this forum??

Tim




Have now popped in some Calms pills.......am very tired, but feel better now. And Welcome to the forum Colin if i have not already said so.     Tim

[ColinD]

As I said in the second from last para - discuss. The fact we are communicating, even like this, and the fact you took the time to respond means that someone, somewhere cares. I don't know, all I understand is that we, the people at the coal face matter, and therefore we can, should we so wish, make a difference.

The sad thing about my last two nights on the forum is that I am reading requests from people for information that I would regard as basic.  If they are entering the world of Commercial, Industrial and Retail cleaning, starting businesses with minimal knowledge and expertise then that just perpetuates the sorry state of the industry and the appearance of the total lack of professionalism. If a prospective client accessed this forum and read some of the requests for information and help, then god help us!

BICSc, well I am a member, for what good it does. Most of the power sits with those in ivory towers directing, so they think, operations from on high.

Before anything can happen, open and honest debate must be had about the influx of unskilled, unsupervised, non regulated cleaning business that set up one day and are gone the next. Image. Professionalism, expertise, training,
industry standards, the list could be endless. But if we are to be part of an industry that we can be proud of then something must be done. Let's tie up the horses, park the saddles, put the six guns in the drawers. It's about time we let Wyatt Earp, Billy the Kid and Big John Wayne retire, no more roundups and cattle drives.

Hey ho another diatribe!
 

[Prestige1]

Colin I detect a lot of anger in your statement? I suppose when you first started all them years ago you new it all? everyone needs a starting point, and this board provides an excellent service for beginners to ask the question and for those who know from experience give the others that benefit, I have to agree with Tim,

If your doing your bit and portraying a professional image and I know there’s loads doing the same on here, and through the help of this board, the image will change. The ways in which you have slated newbie’s questions have added to the lack of knowledge out there! for newbie’s may now not want to ask that question adding to there inexperience.

 You have only posted 11 times! I suggest you watch the forum for a while and see for yourself.

Regards Phil

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Colin,

The facts are that cleaning will always attract people who have very little business knowledge etc etc but most of what i have seen on here are decent hard working people that want to learn and  better them selves.They come here to seek advice!

We all have to start somewhere, were you born a professional or did you learn your skills?

Rob.

 

[ColinD]

Profane apologies. As a "newbie" I was unaware that I was not entitled to an opinion, or able to raise an issue!

I may have only read a few posting, but from what I see the old ethos still persists. Amateurs entering a field of play without understanding the rules of the game!

Of course we all had to start somewhere. But it is the where we start and how we start that determines where we end up, or where the industry, that we are all a part of, eventually ends up.

More damage, to the image of the industry, can be done by enthusiatic amateurs than can be imagined.

It's very noble to provide information and advice to those seeking it, and good luck to those that seek advice, but using such a forum to seek such fundamental answers to questions that I have seen asked is very worrying. 

More worrying is some of the advice that has been proffered by people who, supposedly, have experience and knowledge.

A little knowledge is dangerous, a little knowledge without the experience to support the implementation can be catastrophic!

Obviously I am too old and lack the tact to be part of this mastabatory society.

If I hit several nerves or bruised a few egos, ce'st la vie.

[Robert Parry]

Afraid I agree with an awful colin has said so far!
I believe I even stated as such in a recent post, H & S, Employment Law, COSSH etc are all costs that professional companies must bear, the amount of times I see requests for information on this forum and others, asking about these things and more is truly amazing! Most are answered by helpful and willing people, but supplying a couple of bits of paper, as a real H & S policy (risk assessments) and then believing that you have complied with the regs is wrong.
You have to have the training , the systems and procedures in place, and you have to show that they are adhered to.

Domestic chemicals, aagain I have mentioned this before, as well as using the clients equipment (duty of care etc), in my opinion, you should never use domestic cleaning products.

Colin, please do not be offended by this, but believe me, there is no point shouting at people, you will not force them to change their behaviour, logical, reasoned argument works best, honest! The worst of it is, that it's not only the cleaning companies attitudes that have to change, but we, as an industry, have to educate our client's as well.

Most contracts, as you state, are actually awarded on nothing but price, again in a previous post, how often have you heard from a prospect that they require 2 cleaners for two hours per night or similair? As a general rule, on all but the bigger sites, the person who decides the contract winner has no training or knowledge about the materials, cleaning methods or the times that the cleaning operations should take, we, as an industry should educate them in the realities, why do so many client's have real trouble in finding good cleaners? Well I believe one reason is that they think of cleaning as a cost, not an investment, it does nothing for their bottom line, so they push down the actual cost of the contract, then complain about poor service! We have to change this perception, and I believe, slowly it is begining to happen, but we within the industry have to make sure that we play our part too, by giving our prospective client's real choice, value, quality and above all real profesionalism.

Regards,

Rob

[Art]

Hi Colin,

 Those were really all inspiring posts, but if you want to be seen as the saviour of the cleaning industry i think you might want to change your email for starters " colin death" now that's definately not professional.

Why not give all the cowboys on the forum abit of an insite into how you started.

Arthur

[Fox]

Hi All

Personally I believe there is no problem with using certain 'domestic' products - one I frequently use is shiny sinks bought from Tescos, yes you can get COSHH from Tescos but what did I do?  Simple call the manufacturer and request it, I had a copy emailed me within 15mins!  But also agree it is not professional to attend a site with the likes of flash spray or viakal!

I feel what companies in the industry need is a strong management structure.  To many times people take on staff without knowing a thing about management, cleaners are then left to get on with it without proper instruction or supervision, people need direction and encouragement, training and safe working conditions, given these performance will always improve. I also hate the old belief that 'anyone can clean' - they can't! 

Clients are getting better as more laws come into place about H&S, COSHH, TUPE etc clients are understanding that they have to hire a firm who understands and will implement the requirements.  When I quote for a contract I put together a proposal that includes training, supervision, P&EL etc and I am not scared to sit infront of the managing and financial directors and fight my corner as to why these costs are necessary, more often than not I will be awarded the contract for this attitude as they realise they are dealing with a professional, someone who wants to run the contract properly long term.

I must admit some 'newbies' annoy me with their daft questions and I don't post as much as I used too.  It would be nice to see more 'advanced' (for want of a better descriptive word) managers on here to discuss issues further up the chain than - how do you clean a toilet!

Good discussion, although Colin did start off pretty agressive - but hey it got us posting!

Fox

 

[supernova77]

but if you want to be seen as the saviour of the cleaning industry i think you might want to change your email for starters " colin death" now that's definately not professional.

Perhaps Death is his actual surname - Hence the email address?

Andy

[dustdees]

 Hello Colin,

Firstly, who the hell do you think you are?

If you think you know everything that is to know the why be on this forum, you don't need advice, in your opinion  anyway.

f you look into thing properly before you go blasting off at the newbies amongst us, you can go an buy domestic products and ask for COSHH sheets. SOme of the domestic products do a much better tan some of these overated so called profesional products.

As far a loking at the wages increases due to the minimum wage changes, I don't need to bother with that as I always pay my staff over that limit anyway, because you need to pay a decent wages to get decent staff. DOESN'T CAUSE ME A PROBLEM AT ALL!!!

'm more interested in providing a full-on Customer Service, than making to much money.

If you think that we are the bottom of the so called "food chain", then you can't have much of an opinon of yourself and your staff.

 think you will make alot of enemies in this forum if you don't lower your tone and help the newbies no slating them all the time.

Let's face it. we have all had to get our information from somewhere in the early days. It's another information point , not where you go to be ripped off by a know it all.

Carry on like this and you will end up getting banned from the board, mind you do you need to be on here if you think we are the lowest of the low!!!

[whispers]

Right just to put another angle on this PRODUCTS issue…I have tried to build my business around what the customer wants, as a mother and home owner I no what I want to use in my home in the way of cleaning products.

You don’t have to use fancy products that you can only get from a suppler in customers homes, for one customers don’t like it, they think your prices are based on these “fancy” products and your are bigging your self up by using items they have never heard of, in my book what customers want is good old fashion honesty >free< and a service that gets results >hard graft< I use products that the customer under stands >layman’s< and they feel happy and comfortable that what we are using is what they would use them selves if they had time to clean, that’s why most customers get a cleaner in in the first place.

If you specialize in certain areas like offices, ovens windows etc then yes certain products are invaluable to the cleaner.

I operate for the domestic homes and customers who want to see a friendly face, I base all my quotes on honesty and for us it’s the best policy. But we are professional as well.

I must admit a few questions that have been asked made me squirm a bit in terms of being nieve, but you have to learn and lets be honest here if you start up a cleaning company you have to follow through, its hard work and many don’t see the end results because of a lack of understanding of the industry.

[Liahona]

Colin, if I agree or not agree with your comments are for now irrelevant. That you do not know that Tescos supply C.O.S.H.H. sheets for all of their products is a comment from someone who is lacking in education on a very simple subject. This being the case would put you in the bracket of needing advice from people on this forum, which you have been advised on accordingly. We all need help of some sort every now and again and this is a good place to get it. The fact, again, that you know so little of the basics of C.O.S.H.H. and Tescos that you indeed need just the basic of help. Best, Dave.

[DP]

Lol I was a bit like Colin when I came on here, Guns blazing still am some times. Its like shaking a can of worms upside down to see what falls out!

Aggression is the fastest way to get answers, facts and results and works extremely well. Dependant on how much people complain decides on how much you can extract as fact, rubbish or useful information. Its great!

I'll let you decide on which bit the simple "moaning" falls in to. :

I agree with Collin in that certain levels of the cleaning industry are still perceived to be the bottom of the food chain. Not forgetting that there are many specialised areas in the industry that command years of training and qualification.

So in respect of general cleaning, who's fault is it? Lets face it, how can you train somebody properly when there is absolutely no money to do it? Who wants to invest in a perfect stranger when the law says they can walk away tomorrow.

Although the industry has evolved as it always will do with technology and trends, the only real measurable steps have been evoked by government legislation like health and safety, insurance levels and minimum wage and haven’t we all complained about those!

   
"Bottom  feeders" is a bit harsh, but if the cap fits then who am I to argue!  


  

[Ian Gourlay]

Colin,

Congratulations at being in the cleaning industry 30 years.

I do not know what experience you had when you started but new entrants have got to start somewhere.

Is it wise to use Tesco products on the job, or a vac that can be bought in the shops ?

Trouble is boundary's are getting  blurred, As Henrys Sebbos , Karacher etc can be found in retail outlets

There is also probably in some instance a problem with training for new entrants,

Unlike carpet cleaning there does not appear to be two day courses on Starting in Contract Cleaning, , Domestic Cleaning, or Builders Cleans.

I do gain the impression that some people are entering the field by bluff, ie Window Cleaner adding an extra service etc  but I would imagine this has happened for years.

Colin I am looking forward to your contributions

[Robert Parry]

Bit of a hot thread this one!!!!!!!!

A lot of client's/prospects think cleaning is easy, normally carried out by people with little education/skills. It is in fact one of the easiest industries to enter, but one of the hardest to climb the ladder in, this is because as one contibutor has stated, there is very little money available for training and personnel development.

Yes client's and prospects are beginning to realise, that we as an industry have to have trained people on site, but, this is mainly in the fields of H & S, COSHH etc, very rarely, in actual cleaning (after all the wife does it at home, how hard can it be?)  .

This is the sort of mindset, that we as an industry, have to overcome. For more than a few years now, the buzzword whithin the industry has been"Best Value", what does this really mean? E - Tendering is now beginning to take hold in the industry, and trust me, these are based on price, we have independent consultants visiting our client's and potential client's promising to cut their business costs in every sector that you can imagine, from, electricity, rates, stationary, and yes, you guessed it, cleaning.

DP mentioned that a new employee can walk away at any time, so why really bother with training, well the simple answer is personnel selection, references, CRB check, a real interview, this process will prevent many from starting the job in the first place, so why do we all not do this? Simple really, the industry just wants to fill the vacancy as quickly as possible. Do we as an industry, really offer our staff a logical career path, with the opportunity for progression, 95 times out of a 100, no we do not.

Regarding chemicals, domestic and commercial, it is a legal requirement to have COSHH sheets for all chemicals that are used by your staff. If you prefer to get them from Tesco's, your choice, does it really matter?
However, you must have sysytems in place to ensure that your client is aware of the dangers of mixing even well known household chemicals!

However using your client's equipment is another matter, as an employer, you have a duty of care to ensure that all electrical equipment is actually safe to be used, are you going to insist on a PAT test, on at least an annual basis?
Where you purchase equipment/chemicals has no real bearing on this, as long as you comply with the legislation, however, by dealing with a commercial janitorial supply company, you gain access to all sorts of help and advice, that electrical retailers and Tesco's cannot match.

You may be forgiven for thinking that there is no training available for small/starup cleaning business's, but the fact is there is a huge amount, your local chamber of commerce holds many short courses on a wealth of subjects, administration/payroll/accounts/H & S/advertising/employent law etc. Of course specific training, can be obtained from BICS(British Institute of Cleaning Science), Prochem and indeed your freindly local jan supplier! amongst many others. You just have to invest the time and money in obtaining this knowledge, not just purchase a couple of vacuum cleaners, mop bucket and cloths

Only by singing from the same songsheet are we going to change the world!!!

Regards,

Rob

[a55essor]

Hi
I think every body should have training in what ever their profession is.
If you go to your local college you will see they do nvq level 1 and 2 in the cleaning industry,  they teach you most of what  COLIN is ped off with, so I think a little research was called for, As a ex nvq assessor I ensure all my staff are trained on site then I bring a external verify in to finish off. so colin is wrong to class all cleaning businesses as Del Boy out fits 
KL

[Robert Parry]

To be fair, I don't think that was Colins main point KL, yes he came out all gun's blazing, but all that does in my opinion, is deflect the the real point of his post.
You take the time and trouble to train your employee's, but how many others go as far?
Many talk about H & S, training etc, to their customers, but in a recent survey that we conducted 80% of respondents stated that they were unhappy with the standard of cleaning offered by their present provider!
Ideal for converting into client's you might say, but when meeting them face to face, same old story, too expensive, it's only cleaning!

If you do not invest in proper training/procedures, systems etc, you have the ability to go low on any contract, this I believe is Colins main argument, but as stated in previous posts, we also have to change our client's and prospects attitudes as well.

I think we all know of firms, that cut all sorts of corners, only by sticking to our guns, will we educate our client's, perhaps then they will stop driving down the cost of contracts, to, frankly unsustainable levels.

A few years ago I attended a couple of meetings at the then NFMW &GC, just when poles were beginning to make an impact within window cleaning, in a very nice way I tried to convince a few members of the commitee to offer real training for their members, but was informed that this was beyond their brief, one of the major manufactures of waterfed sysytems, took it upon themselves, to offer this training, and as far as I know, have never looked back!

The point I am trying to make is, do we really want some govt. department setting out regualations for us, like best practice or standards? Or, as an industry, should we be responsible? I know which side of the fence i'm on!!!

Regards,

Rob

[martin19842]

hi there

well i'vd skimmed through it all,

deffinately havent got the time to read it all, far too busy.

the voice of reason, the voice of experience, all great instruments to be blown.

some people will take advice, and some wont, what more can you say

you cant help all the people all the time.

have a great weekend eveybody, out carpet cleaning tomorrow, and a busy week, and even busier october planned, so all looks god for me.

and whlst that might be selfish, as long as my frinends, family and business colleagues are happy thats all that really matters.

regards

martin

[dustdees]

Hi Martin,

What more can you ask for.

You have summed that up just right, here here.

Pat that man on the back!!!!

[Fox]

deffinately havent got the time to read it all, far too busy.

Gosh Martin give it a break mate!  Your not far too busy to blow your own trumpet though!

Where's the valuble opinion?

Fox

[Prestige1]

Martin
Busy! you don't know what busy is! tommorow I am going to get up half n hour before I go to bed, I have then got to clean 17 pub carpets, with a tooth brush and a bottle of star drops before 12 then I am of to clean 24 houses for a builder should get finish for 10 past 12, then I am off to cut the the grass on the Yorkshire moors! thats busy!
Phil

[Tim Downer]

Well done Phil     

Reading everyones posts was enjoyable, and yes, training etc etc etc does cost money and time and not many companies are willing to do it......and just as i was going to say a comment on it all......Phil steals my wind and can't stop laughing at his work for tomorrow.

Oh Boy, needed that     

Poor Martin, he does try 

Think i will leave my thoughts till another day as still giggling. Thanks again Phil

Regards

Tim

Enjoy your grass cutting, hope its not raining tomorrow!! Toothbrush indeed 

[*Chris Browne]

Phil, busy? you call that busy, toothbrush? a whole toothbrush?? i have got to clean 365 pubs, on my own, in the dark and using only a dead cat and a bucket of pigswill!, and that's before i get up, Then after a lunch break that i wont have, its off to clean a whole street(not the houses,the street)Then home for a piece of stale bread, and a cup of old petrol. Thee don't know when thees born.....

Chrislad

[Prestige1]

STALE BREAD AND A CUP OF PETROL! THA LUCKY BUGGER! ALL I HAVE GOT TO EAT IS THE CHEWING GUM OF THEM PUB CARPETS AND TO WASH IT DOWN THE MOP BUCKIT WATER LEFT OVER FROM MOPPING 17 PUB TOILETS! THA DON'T KNOW THAS BORN LAD!
PHIL

[Tim Downer]

       

       

[www.crawleycarpetc]

I see you have changed your signature MR Downer!? 

[martin19842]

hi there

phil
  i liked that, good response.

one of the biggest problems with this country is people hate it, when you say your doing well.

why? i dont care what people think,

i work hard, have a good team, employees and sub contractors, and they all work hard, hence they all earn good money. 

and i dont care what we do to earn it, but generally we get a lot of work on the back of other contractors, some of them cleaning contractors, not wantiing the work, or contractors not performing for whatever reason.

people know that i'll help anybody, whether thats on here or not. 

so some people might think thats arrogant, but i know where i want to be in three and five years time, and as far as im concerned theres nothing wrong with that

regards

martin

[ColinD]

When I was lad me mother would wake me up before I'd gone to sleep, make me sweep, with hair on back of dead rat nestled down in my bed, the floor to our cardboard box.
Send me down to pit to sweep the floor for dust.  Mix dust with meths or white spirit, once turned into a paste, push vile mixture, with bare hands, into small flat metal tins.

Wth my John Bull printing set. a Chrsitmas present every year for forty years, I would have to stamp 100,000 labels for the tins every day. After breakfast I would push trolley with tins of vile mixture to local market and whilst waiting for Cleaning Contractors to arrive at 09.30 of the a.m to buy vile mixture, I would hand write 1000, 000 CoSHH sheets.

[www.crawleycarpetc]

When I was lad me mother would wake me up before I'd gone to sleep, make me sweep, with hair on back of dead rat nestled down in my bed, the floor to our cardboard box.
Send me down to pit to sweep the floor for dust.  Mix dust with meths or white spirit, once turned into a paste, push vile mixture, with bare hands, into small flat metal tins.

Wth my John Bull printing set. a Chrsitmas present every year for forty years, I would have to stamp 100,000 labels

for the tins every day. After breakfast I would push trollewith tins of vile mixture to local market and whilst waiting for Cleaning Contractors to arrive at 09.30 of the a.m to buy vile mixture, I would hand write 1000, 000 CoSHH sheets.

Thats better....you had a poo then!

[D woods]

Hi Martin
What you say about people hating it when you do well is so true, especially in the cleaning industry. But you have to admit some of the
replies have been funny.

[martin19842]

hi there

hey i have a sense of humour just like the next bloke


amd in this game you need it, esp when you vaccing the brown stuff up from a flood

regards

martin

[Mike Jones]

Im totaly with Colin. As i stated in another posting some of you lack the most basic skills. Half of you couldn't manadge a pi* up  in a brewery let alone running a sucessfull business.

[Mr BSF]

thats a bit below the belt mikey..... you cant even change your weird pic

never mind run a p##s up in a brewery, stop right now mr jones b4 you lose ur temper :

[a55essor]

Mike what skills do we lack?. by the way if you space the letters out they will come out what you want to say IE: (P I S S UP)

Im totaly with Colin. As i stated in another posting some of you lack the most basic skills. Half of you couldn't manadge a pi* up in a brewery let alone running a sucessfull business.

[Mike Jones]

My daughter chose that picture!

[Robert Parry]

Nothing wrong with a sense of humour, sure i've got one somewhere, probably vac'd it up.
But serious debate, don't be so hard Mike we all had to start somewhere, but we can only improve the standards within the industry by educating both our employee's and our clients, there are vast numbers of client's out there who have no more idea of cleaning than the very newest of our downtrodden broterhood!

Only by the mutual exchange of information and idea's with others can we learn, seems to me that this forum and others is the ideal place for that

Regards,

Rob

[Mike Jones]

I find myself looking at questions about the most basic aspects of running a business and even worse very basic questions regarding cleaning.

If you don't believe me then trawl back over the past posts.

[Mike Jones]

Often a simple search would come up with the info without the need to waste our time.

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Nothing wrong with a sense of humour, sure i've got one somewhere, probably vac'd it up.
But serious debate, don't be so hard Mike we all had to start somewhere, but we can only improve the standards within the industry by educating both our employee's and our clients, there are vast numbers of client's out there who have no more idea of cleaning than the very newest of our downtrodden broterhood!

Only by the mutual exchange of information and idea's with others can we learn, seems to me that this forum and others is the ideal place for that

Regards,

Rob

Rob, i agree but how do you go about educating clients? Especially at the stage when you are asked to quote?

Regards Rob.

[a55essor]

WHAT I FOUND ON THIS FORUM IS THAT MOST OF THE TIME IF THE NEWBIES COME UP WITH A GOOD QUESTION THEN THEY ARE ACCEPTED, IF QUESTION IS DEEMED CRAP THEN THEY HAVE THE P I S S TAKEN OUT OF THEM
KL

[Mr BSF]

i FOUND THAT MOST OF THE TIME THIS FORUM LIKES TO KNOCK MOST NEWBIES SO WHAT I FOUND IF THEY COME UP WITH A GOOD QUESTION THEN THEY ARE ACCEPTED, IF NOT THEN THEY HAVE THE P I S S TAKEN OUT OF THEM
KL

CAPS LOCK OFF<<<<

yea thats true

[Robert Parry]

Rob,

The challenge of educating clients?
(Still trying to work it out!!!!)

As an industry, is'nt  it our responsibilty to inform the client of just what is possible, and what is not, how do we do this?

Well I think the answer lies in very much our own hands, most quotes contain no any real information, except the price of course!

There is normally no information on workloading and staffing for example.

 Surely the client needs to know this?
If company a decides that the site needs  20 hrs per week, company b decides that the site needs 30 hours per week, does not the client need to know the reason why?

Get them to look and understand the difference.

Regards,

Rob

[a55essor]

Caps was left on as to highlight my point
KL

[Prestige1]

Mike. Dear me another one who is so far up his own backside its untrue, if it upsets you seeing the newbie’s ask questions bog off! You are like the school bully who takes the pee out of the kid who asks questions in class, if you don’t ask you will never learn and progress; when you started did you just know everything? If you don’t want to contribute then don’t answer the question and let some one else help, or are you in fear these newbie’s will soon be up to your level? What really annoys me is these people who throw stones and hide behind hidden details, when probably they employee less that 5 staff and are a small operation, and before you mention why I hide my details, I have my reasons but I don’t go on pontificating that I am the best and every one else is crap! Phil

[Mr BSF]

you did once upon a time show all your details Phil, but I do believe it was me that convinced you to go undercover,  like me

youve never looked back  

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Rob,

The challenge of educating clients?
(Still trying to work it out!!!!)

As an industry, is'nt  it our responsibilty to inform the client of just what is possible, and what is not, how do we do this?

Well I think the answer lies in very much our own hands, most quotes contain no any real information, except the price of course!

There is normally no information on workloading and staffing for example.

 Surely the client needs to know this?
If company a decides that the site needs  20 hrs per week, company b decides that the site needs 30 hours per week, does not the client need to know the reason why?

Get them to look and understand the difference.

Regards,

Rob

Rob

I totally agree, I recently quoted a 3 kitchen site with 3000 square feet of office space ( this company does food tastings!) they wanted an all singing / dancing service 3 days a week. Plus 30 windows outside once a month and 30 inside every other month. I quoted 10 hours a week @ £15.00 per hour and was told i was more than double another quote that they had had!

I included coshh sheets for everything, insurance details, everything i could but the bottom line was the price!!

Rob.

[martin19842]

hi there

price - service, service - price,

a couple of points,  the easiest excuse that a potential client can give for not chossing your service is

" another company was cheaper" they can say that all day long

a potential client will inevitably try to neg the price.

ask yourself this question

why are you sitting in front of MR or MRS Potential Customer (note this customer is a commercial client say an standard office found all over the country, with say 25 employees)

Potential customer hs given you time to visit their office, either as a result of a cold call, or a letter or a phone call.

but why???

you have to ask the client,  how are the current cleaners doing???

you will get an answer

good, bad, indifferent

any of those answers, is what you want to hear

bad, or indifferent-  client is seeeking a better service, therefore you need to sell the benefits of your service, and therefore the price differential

current cleaner is good-  therefore the potentail client maybe looking for a competive quote to negotatiate his current supplier down.

irrelevant of whether they are happy or unhappy with their current cleaner, as you walk round the building, find the dirt, in the toilets, and the kitchens -- favourite places.

ask the client "what is your current budget"

the client mwy tell you, or they will object to telling you.

your response--- well if you paying an unresonably high price, we may be ble to save you  money, or if you are paying a low price, then we need to quote on a like for like service level.

it just gives us some guidance on where you are with your cleaning Mr or Mrs Client

ANYBODY can sell on PRICE

i can sell £10 notes in the high street for £8 all day long

But i wont.

i hope all of the above reads properly

regards

martin

[ColinD]

Well the last two days have been very interesting! When I've delivered the freshly packed tins of vile cleaning mixture to the local market I will respond -you unluckly people.

I make one promise. I will not lobb another hand grenade into the forum - well for at least a week.

Catch you all later.

PS: To the member who queried my surname. Death by nature, and yes, Death by name.

[Prestige1]

BSF
how are you managing to stay on so long this time? you must have toned down a bit? as for my details, you just dont know what lenghts people will go to, to get one back at you, thats why I choose not to display, but you know who I am and I know who you are so where equal!

I do agree with a lot of what Colin has stated, apart from the knocking the newbies bit, if I would have had the bennefit of this board when I first started it would have saved me a lot of time and money, mostly time! well if I would have the board from the beginning I might have got up to taking £100 per week! cant seem to get over that £89.50 per week mark, I keep trying though. kind regards Phil

[The Great One]

Hi

It was actually me that suggested using Viakal!

someone had an issue with heavy shower build up and needed a good limescale product to shift it. Whats the difference between this product and a limescale product from a professional supplier. Tesco happen to do some excellent products. I have used Viakal for a year, no one single problem with it in EOT cleaning.

Whats the difference between a washing liquids, soap powders, cloths, polish, anti-bacterial etc etc bought at tescos or your supplier? Minimal at best.

I cover for a commercial contract when their people go on holiday and they use Flash with Bleach!!! I wouldn't personally but it is their call.

I use loads of professional products anti bacs, degreaser, floor cleaner etc but at times I use the supermarkets.

Sadly cleaning will always be seen as the bottom of the pile, no matter how much you rant and rave, people don't realise that without cleaning they would not be allowed to even open!

Try using it first and then comment on it's validity.

Regards

Martin

[D woods]

We sell box loads of Viakal in our shop (we run a janitorial business)
and all of it is brought by cleaning contractors who keep buying it
every month. So they must think it is a good product.

[ColinD]

Experience tells! What pleases me is that nobody, as yet, has advocated the use of Cillet Bang!

In this so called "eco-day" of society, why are we using, overpriced, ineffective products that are certainly not Green. Viakal, as an exapmple. Bleach, excuse my ignorance but are we still using a product that at most has less than 12% of it's orginal efficacy after one month from production, but is potenially the most dangerous, general purpose cleaning solution available. Not to mention what is does to the water table when it leaches in.

Bleach, in any commercial cleaning enviroment should be BANNED. It is dangerous, ineffective and most of all expensive. With a Minimal Ph value of 10.5 what are we doing using such chemical.

Question. Do all of you insist that your staff use gloves and face masks when using or dispensing bleach?

Queston. How may of you allow a phosporic aciid toilet cleaner to be in the same enviroment as a bleached based product. How many of you understand the difference? Viakal, gnerally available phos acid cleaners, even coca cola, should  never be in contact with bleach basec products.

Experience tells!

[Prestige1]

Experience tells! What pleases me is that nobody, as yet, has advocated the use of Cillet Bang!

In this so called "eco-day" of society, why are we using, overpriced, ineffective products that are certainly not Green. Viakal, as an exapmple. Bleach, excuse my ignorance but are we still using a product that at most has less than 12% of it's orginal efficacy after one month from production, but is potenially the most dangerous, general purpose cleaning solution available. Not to mention what is does to the water table when it leaches in.

Bleach, in any commercial cleaning enviroment should be BANNED. It is dangerous, ineffective and most of all expensive. With a Minimal Ph value of 10.5 what are we doing using such chemical.

Question. Do all of you insist that your staff use gloves and face masks when using or dispensing bleach?

Queston. How may of you allow a phosporic aciid toilet cleaner to be in the same enviroment as a bleached based product. How many of you understand the difference? Viakal, gnerally available phos acid cleaners, even coca cola, should  never be in contact with bleach basec products.

Experience tells!

To answear your question, To bleach something is to remove or lighten its color; a "bleach" is a chemical that can produce these effects, often via oxidation. Common chemical bleaches include sodium hypochlorite, or "chlorine bleach," and "oxygen bleach," which contains hydrogen peroxide or a peroxide-releasing compound such as sodium perborate or sodium percarbonate. "Bleaching powder" is calcium hypochlorite. Bleaching may be a preliminary step in the process of dyeing and should never be mixed.

its very bad for the envioronment and has obviuos dangers, apart from that its bloody good stuff and wouldn't let my girls leave home with out it! Phil

[Prestige1]

Colin what do you use to combat lime scale? I have never used Viakal so I can't comment, what I use is a product I use from a supplier which is excellant, But tell us first what you use,

So that you know what lime scale is, its those white residues left on a shower screen glass that is hard to shift?

Regards Phil

[Art]

I can't hold back any longer 

Lidl does a good limscale remover, very effective and it's only 99p 

COSHH sheets are available to download via there website.

[Andy Foster]

Hi all

I am a bit confused about the comments that have been made about 'newbies' to the forum and the questions being asked by people new to the cleaning industry.

There are a lot of people on this forum who have given advice that is both useful and generous to say the least, and there are those (a minority I feel) that come on the forum just to browse.

I for one have both given and received advice and am extremely grateful for the advice I have been given, it has saved me both time and money over and over again.

I have been in the industry full time for 18 months now and so I still consider myself to be a 'newbie' as I am still learning and am constantly looking for new ways to improve my service to my customers.
Anyone who considers themselves to be beyond taking advice from others is not only (in my opinion) arrogant but runs the risk of becoming complacent about their business and their customers.

I agree that niave approaches to the industry and methods used within it can harm our reputations and casts a shadow on each and every one of us when we are bidding for new work.
I also agree that cost cutting is not the way to progress, but increasing customer service is.  This will undoubtedly enhance the perception of the industry and show our customers that we are in a profession rather than a job.

There are certain aspects of the discussions that have taken place that I would like to comment on;
- chastising those who are looking for help is not going to help our industry, only damage it in the long run
- no matter how seemingly inane the question, surely it is better to ask it that plough on without the input of someone more experienced
- attaining qualifications in your chosen sphere of work is a great show of commitment to your customers but there is no replacement for common sense and customer service, just because someone is not 'qualified' doesn't mean that they can not do the same job as someone who is qualified... and may be able to do it even better.

The whole point of the forum is to share knowledge and ensure that those in our industry (no matter how experienced or otherwise) do the right job, the right way and at the right price.
The ethos of helping others is a rare thing nowadays and it is very refreshing to see it in action here and I would not wish to see it stop.

The attitude displayed by those who would wish to criticise 'simple' questions will only discourage the more inexperienced amongst us from asking them and eventually lead to those who consider themselves to be the 'elite' being the only ones on this forum.
If that is the desired situation then it may be an idea for them to start their own forum and not allow anyone who does not fit their criteria to be a member.
This would undoubtedly be a massive loss to this forum and those seeking advice and guidance.

In closing I would like to thank once again those who offer their knowledge and experience freely and without judgement... I salute you.

Phew, that's better!!!

Andy

[Prestige1]

Art
I have used that in the past its very good, but of all the products I have used and believe me I have tried loads, in my opinion you can't beat "Life Guard" lime scale remover by Jonson Diversey. its great. my girls use it with a white scotch brite scourer, its good stuff, but leathel if mixed with bleach, gives of chlorine gas! not nice.
Its a poor cleaner who needs profesional branded products to look good, its all about the cleaner in my oppinion. regards Phil

[Mike Jones]

phil, calm down.

Art, I agree the lidl lime scale remover (marketed as W5) is excelent.

[Art]

Hi Phil,

I've tried numerous ones aswell, life guard i've never tried, but on your recommendation i'll give it a go.
The thing i like about the W5 is, it's nice and easy to handle.

Bleach i never use on anything.

Your right about not needing the big brands. I've done allright by having good staff and doing an A1 job

Arthur

[ColinD]

Johnsons Toilet Descaler - Expensive but does the job, most times.
Lots of other "chemical" companies offer similar products, some good some not so.  All are based on similar chemical compounds in solution, i.e. in water. So what we are buying is about 90% water with a few nasties added.

For regular use, even Johnson's 3 in 1 will eradicate light build up and prevent it's re-occurance. Again expensive and still predominately H2o.

RJN Chemicals make a powder chemical "Freshclean." It works on light to medium soil, with use of a green pad it will clean most limescale off! It's eco friendly as well.

As a stand by, Vinegar with the application of a Green Pad. May have to soak the limscale for a second or two, but that happens with most other commercially available products.

Surely it's what you find that works for you and what you are comfortable with. Preference for any product is subjective, based upon experience, availability, cost and who is going to use it. The other answer is to get all our clients to fit water Softeners on the mains inlet to the buildings. Excuse me whilst I study the skys for flying pigs.

Good night, and as the late Davel Allen would say. May your gods go with you! I'm off down the pub to drink water mixed with chemical - they call it beer in this part of the country.

Adios.

[Mr BSF]

 ::)I thought I would add a few comments to the above:

Using brand name chemicals isn’t unprofessional by any means, sc Johnson have been going for over 100 years, the products they sell are excellent, I use commercial graded products made by them,  the small time chemical manufacturers tell you not to use them, our stuff is much better and cheaper,   yea right?

seen it done it and got the tee shirt

And Ive also got a fair old stash of the rubbish in 5ltr containers as stock taking up unnecessary space

Don’t waste your money on cheap imitations, buy from the established manufacturers, that have big budgets for product development, they do all sell concentrated professional products for us to dilute ourselves, that do what they say.

Regards,

BSF

[The Great One]

Hi

As regards pricing.

I have recently quoted for an office contract oly 6 hours a week. Got told yesterday that I have quoted TWICE what the other guy charges, his quote is £37.50 a week + materials! This means he is working for £6.40 p/h.

I can not and will not even try to compete with this, he has shot himself in the foot as he cannot staff the job. Needless to say sometimes he doesn't even turn up.

My quote will stay at it's current amount (includes materials)

Regards

Martin

[Robert Parry]

I do not think that is that simple Martin, you gave great advice in a previous post on how to begin to overcome the obstacle of costs, ie. try to find out their present/expectation of cleaning budgets when meeting or presenting your quotation.

However, I feel that the cleaning specification can only be prepared by taking into account the use/density/number of staff and size of the prospects premises, as well as a number of other things.

As stated before, the client's expectations need to be considered as well.
We then have to educate our prospects, in real understanding of what operations are going to be carried out, and how long these seperate operations actually take our cleaners.

I have recently quoted for an office contract oly 6 hours a week. Got told yesterday that I have quoted TWICE what the other guy charges, his quote is £37.50 a week + materials! This means he is working for £6.40 p/h.

After getting the bad news on this particular quote, did you not consider informing this prospective customer that it is very unlikely that the staff doing the cleaning would have access to holiday pay/insurance of any kind, and that the only way that this particular contract could be made profitable is by cutting corners?

When as you quite rightly state, this guy has shot himself in the foot, the contract does not work out this client will feel let down, not just by this cowboy, but indeed by the whole industry, because no one actually offered a real professional view.
The client has been allowed to focus on the cost, not what is actually required or indeed possible.

Perhaps, the prospect, having had this pointed out to him, would then have decided to go with you, but even if he did'nt, he certainly would have remembered what you said, and when things get really bad, he may have given you a call.

[a55essor]

Hi

I use Astra Trading they manufacture all thier products, you can have chemicals made as strong or weak as you want

KL

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Hi

As regards pricing.

I have recently quoted for an office contract oly 6 hours a week. Got told yesterday that I have quoted TWICE what the other guy charges, his quote is £37.50 a week + materials! This means he is working for £6.40 p/h.

I can not and will not even try to compete with this, he has shot himself in the foot as he cannot staff the job. Needless to say sometimes he doesn't even turn up.

My quote will stay at it's current amount (includes materials)

Regards

Martin

Yes and we live in the affluent South East!

[ColinD]

Just read the last few postings. I believe my point has been made. KL cleaning, when they first replied to my Hand Grenade asked "who the hell I thought I was." I am a person who saw this situation coming around the corner many years ago.

Martin 606, at £.6.40 per hour I doubt that your competing "contractor" has any form of PL or EL or any idea what he is doing.  Stick with your quote. I have just done the figures. no idea where you are, but even at min' wage you are tight, but possible. Less than that is asking for trouble. The problem is, that  problem then becomes part of our situation, as an industry.

One has to ask. Are we, by passing on information and experience, that has taken years to accrue, allowing the siuation to perpetuate?

Question? Statements made during this particular series of postings have, to a certain degree, centred around educating the client?

Surely that is why they use contractors. The onus of responsiblity rests with the contractor, not the client.

OR DOES ?

In fact, if the client has not taken sufficient measures to ensure that all, H & S, CoSHH, Employment law ( including alien and equal opportuntiies legislation), training and training records  have been implemented, and they have no PAPER TRAIL supporting them, they can and will be held jointly liable for any action under H & S, abuse of CoSHH or EMPLOYMENT and training regimes.

How many of your clients are aware of Joint and Several liability in respect of contracting with a 3rd party. ASK THE QUESTION!

Employing contract cleaners does not negate the clients responsiility, it does not amilorate their responsibilty to the staff employed by a neligant contractor, if they, the instructing client, did not take every measure open to them to ensure that all H & S, Employment and Training requirements are fulfilled, and are recorded, they can and will be, eventually, held liable under current European Law.

Surely this needs to be pointed out to prospective clients and more importantly to their Insurance Companies. Case law within the E. U is very specific with regard to Client - Contractor relationships.

So if Joh Wayne climbs of his horse and whilst drinking his milk  offers to undercut at sensible quote from a professional cleaning contractor, just ask the client who will pick up the Industrial Injury Claim, the Illegal Working Fine and the Sex Discrimination Action, when the The Duke rides  off into the sunset, never to be seen again!

Adios.

[The Great One]

Hi

Actually the contract is still open for me to quote on which i will do but I will not drop my prices, cracks are already appearing with the guy they have now.

Reason...

Chances are he couldn't be bothered on slightly above min wage, might as well go work at Tescos (can get his Viakal cheap then ) where there are no responsibilities asscociated with running a business.

 When I put in the new contract I will be telling her why things are being missed, not turning up etc if they want a pro service, they need to understand what that will take.

Regards

Martin

[Mr BSF]

I fail to see how any company can make any sort of profit on any size job at £6.40 ph, I know I have stirred the mud on pricing in the past and have had the we charge £10.00 - £15.00 ph brigade for 50 hr contracts calling me allsorts , but come on £6.40?? no way

He’s having a laugh, I’d ask to see the quote.

Regards


BSF

[www.crawleycarpetc]

I fail to see how any company can make any sort of profit on any size job at £6.40 ph, I know I have stirred the mud on pricing in the past and have had the we charge £10.00 - £15.00 ph brigade for 50 hr contracts calling me allsorts , but come on £6.40?? no way

He’s having a laugh, I’d ask to see the quote.

Regards


BSF

Whats your typical 50 hour contract worth?  :

[Prestige1]

Martin have you a definitive sales approach? If not I would get one, there is a definite sales pitch to gain new clients, some people may think it’s a case of, we do this this and this and costs this! you need a beginning, (identifying there needs) a middle (point out your benefits and features know the difference). an end (close the sale, hit him with the price and get him to commit in some way) its a bit more involved then this, but even if you are more expensive if he thinks he is getting value for money and he likes you, you will get the sale. hope you get the sale. Phil

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Martin have you a definitive sales approach? If not I would get one, there is a definite sales pitch to gain new clients, some people may think it’s a case of, we do this this and this and costs this! you need a beginning, (identifying there needs) a middle (point out your benefits and features know the difference). an end (close the sale, hit him with the price and get him to commit in some way) its a bit more involved then this, but even if you are more expensive if he thinks he is getting value for money and he likes you, you will get the sale. hope you get the sale. Phil

Hi Phil,

i think you have been building up to this? Why not post a typical scenario so we can get a better picture of what you are saying?

regards Rob.

[Mr BSF]

That depends on tupe info rcs, but if staff that were being transferred were on £5.60 ph, I would go in at around £8.00, but would be prepared to discount on early payment, this would depend on cost of equipment needed if I was supplying consumables etc, how long is a piece of string?

The jobs where hours are on the bone are the worst, I much prefer a job that is comfortable on hours being supplied

All jobs are different, if it feels right…. it will make you money.

If I dont like the look or feel of the job, I will inflate the price
 

[www.crawleycarpetc]

That depends on tupe info rcs, but if staff that were being transferred were on £5.60 ph, I would go in at around £8.00, but would be prepared to discount on early payment, this would depend on cost of equipment needed if I was supplying consumables etc, how long is a piece of string?

The jobs where hours are on the bone are the worst, I much prefer a job that is comfortable on hours being supplied

All jobs are different, if it feels right…. it will make you money.

If I dont like the look or feel of the job, I will inflate the price
 

We finally agree! 

[Mr BSF]

That’s reassuring, I’ll sleep 2night

One more thing I do though: If the job needs uprights, I tell the client I will supply BS36's but they cost £250, so I then price this into the cost, then make even more money because I only pay £### for them

[www.crawleycarpetc]

That’s reassuring, I’ll sleep 2night

One more thing I do though: If the job needs uprights, I tell the client I will supply BS36's but they cost £250, so I then price this into the cost, then make even more money because I only pay £### for them

Stop it we will get edited again!!! 

[Prestige1]

Rcs if you click on this link there ins the 7 step sales process
Phil
http://www.businessballs.com/salestraining.htm#sevenstepsofthesale

[Prestige1]

If the link doesernt work go to the web site Phil

[Prestige1]

I can't see how you can make money at £8 per hour? if you pay satff £5.60 you then pay employers ni, you will make money but how much? and is it worth it? I am sorry but I just would not go lower the £11 plus vat, to me if I am going to manage a 50hr contract I would want a decent profit margin. I supose its horses for courses, we have had words before BSF so i don't want to stir that up again, but good luck to you both. Phil

[www.crawleycarpetc]

Rcs if you click on this link there ins the 7 step sales process
Phil
http://www.businessballs.com/salestraining.htm#sevenstepsofthesale

Interesting Phil, i have saved that for a quiet moment!

Rob.

[Tim Downer]

My sales approach would be my list of happy and delighted clients......

      ........that would make the prospective client happy to spend proper money on my services   

Tim

[www.crawleycarpetc]

My sales approach would be my list of happy and delighted clients......

      ........that would make the prospective client happy to spend proper money on my services   

Tim

How do you define proper money Tim? ( for a 50 hour contract!)

[Mr BSF]

I would rather make a profit that none at all, because I wont get the 50 hr contract by quoting £11 per hour, even if I did, I wouldnt have it for very long, what is the point.

Volume thats what this game is all about , If a big contract is taken on and you have the right staff, it will take very little of your time to manage, it will run itself.

[Mr BSF]

My sales approach would be my list of happy and delighted clients......

      ........that would make the prospective client happy to spend proper money on my services   

Tim

That's easily said Tim, but it does help if you can show that list of delighted clients, it takes a very long time to get names on that list.

Its hard to initially get that blue chip client to trust a small company.

regards

BSF

[Mr BSF]

Hi Phil, the sales thing is interesting, unfortunately it doesn’t always work in the contract cleaning game, I offer a good service for a fair price, the sales patter might get the contract initially, but it wont keep it.

How many times have you bought something off a salesmen with the gift of the gab, then when you’ve parted with the money got home to think about it then regretted it, you see in the service industry, it might win you the job, but wont help you keep it.

I win a job to keep it long term, I make sure the price is a fair one, so when the inevitable happens 9/12 months down the line and the new company in town send a fantastic salesperson to offer a better service with a big saving, they cant because any saving my customer can make, isn’t really worth the risk of transfer, but when its a £150 a week saving, believe me they will bin you.

Regards

BSF

[Prestige1]

I agree with a lot in what you say and frustartes the hell out of me, I have a receptionist who answears the phone, the first point of contact is so proffesional she's great, she then arranges a visit from me, and with out blowing my own trumpit to much I really set the scene, we have a high sucess rate when I get chance to visit, and a good price, don't promiss the earth either, but unfortunatly the cleaners let me down most of the time, If I could only find could hard working cleaners I would be laughing all the way to the bank. I have gone through over 100 in 3 years, start of great so I know they can do it, but it falls away after 3 months or so, and I am sure you know the feeling. but hey ho we press on. when you say make the price a fair one I truly think £11 is fair
regards Phil

[www.crawleycarpetc]

I agree with a lot in what you say and frustartes the hell out of me, I have a receptionist who answears the phone, the first point of contact is so proffesional she's great, she then arranges a visit from me, and with out blowing my own trumpit to much I really set the scene, we have a high sucess rate when I get chance to visit, and a good price, don't promiss the earth either, but unfortunatly the cleaners let me down most of the time, If I could only find could hard working cleaners I would be laughing all the way to the bank. I have gone through over 100 in 3 years, start of great so I know they can do it, but it falls away after 3 months or so, and I am sure you know the feeling. but hey ho we press on. when you say make the price a fair one I truly think £11 is fair
regards Phil

Phil

Maybe your team atmosphere is a problem? You say after three months things start to slide, maybe motivation is the problem?

Rob.

[Art]

, but unfortunatly the cleaners let me down most of the time, If I could only find could hard working cleaners I would be laughing all the way to the bank. I have gone through over 100 in 3 years, start of great so I know they can do it, but it falls away after 3 months or so, and I am sure you know the feeling. but hey ho we press on. when you say make the price a fair one I truly think £11 is fair
regards Phil

Hi Phil,

 That's a big problem throughout the industry.

I've thought recently that offering some sort of performance bonus payable 6 monthly might work.
What's everyones elses thoughts on this ?

Arthur

[www.crawleycarpetc]

, but unfortunatly the cleaners let me down most of the time, If I could only find could hard working cleaners I would be laughing all the way to the bank. I have gone through over 100 in 3 years, start of great so I know they can do it, but it falls away after 3 months or so, and I am sure you know the feeling. but hey ho we press on. when you say make the price a fair one I truly think £11 is fair
regards Phil

Hi Phil,

 That's a big problem throughout the industry.

I've thought recently that offering some sort of performance bonus payable 6 monthly might work.
What's everyones else thought on this ?

Arthur

I think social evenings are a good way of motivating staff, it picks them all up not just a particular member and gives them something to look forward to as a group. You can always reward really good staff with bonuses etc.

Rob.

[Mike Jones]

Re Priceing,

I think a lot depends on the geographical area you cover.

 IMO the larger the business the less they want to pay for cleaning and the less they care about the quality of the service provided.

Most of my clieints are domestic and small businesses, I charge between £10 and £13 per hour but there is NO WAY I would gain larger contracts at these rates.

I find my staff prefer working the smaller contracts and domestics even though thier hourly pay rate is the same.

[Prestige1]

RCS
No its not motivation, I come from a back ground of modern management techniques also have a CIM and nvq levlel 5 in management. tried team building events it just goes right over there heads I would probably get more out of them if I went to pub and got ped but thats not my idea of team building, its the industry, you do find good ones, but seams to me the more you do for them the more they want, Ihave 2 girls in citreon belingos not vans car/van. they wouldnt know a good thing if it jumped up and bit them in the face, pay them £7 per hour and they would still leave, sad but I just think their thick, loads have come back for a job but I won't entertain them, I am sure you all will come across it the bigger you get, regards Phil

[Robert Parry]

Question -
Why do most people work?

Answer -
To earn money, to buy the things they need/want or desire.

We, as an example, offer all staff a min of £6:00 per hour, full training in cleaning/ H & S/COSSH.
We give all client's a "Real Quality Management System",  where they decide how good or bad the cleaning is, we have no input into this scoring process, each member of staff is informed that we have no way of altering this quality score.

Then we say to our staff, if you score 3 or above, which equates to "cleaning is of a very good standard" they will be paid a "Quality" bonus, we do the same for attendance.

The above works very well for us in motivating our staff, assuming we have chosen the right person for that particular job. After all they need the job dont they?

I also make sure, that I, myself visit each and every site monthly, to talk and have a laugh with each member of staff, this is actually getting harder, but I think that it shows each staff member that they are important and are valued as such. And I always make a point of getting my hands dirty on site, to show them, that I can do, what I ask them to do, this again breaks down barriers, so there is no "them & us" within the company.

Everyone, is made to feel respected and important, hardly ever have problems with poor work, bad attitiude or attendance, we are all on the same side and we are all friends, what other motivation do you need?

Regards,

Rob

PS
At the first interview stage, we ask a series of detailed questions in order to get some idea of their attitude to the cleaning industry, their answers will decide if we invite them to a second, more detailed interview.

[D woods]

The post above went of prematurely before it was spellchecked  or finished
so I will start again

When I was involved in daily office cleaning I found it impossible to motivate
part time staff. The only people you can attract are the ones that cant get
a job anywhere else (in central London this means immigrants that can speak
very little if any English)

This was the main reason I gave up with daily office cleaning. I would be very interested how other contractors motivate there part time staff.

[a55essor]

Hi
This is what I call a discussion it covers all topics, I find it very helpful. Well done Colin for starting it off.even though you started off with fire in your breath 

[Robert Parry]

D. Woods, in my experience immigrants, as long as they are here legally, have much to offer.
Just the other day took a chap on from Nigeria, although he has been in this country for 12 yrs! He applied for a part time position, best candidate by far, but we could'nt take him on, because his present employer would not give us a reference, his employer by the way is an Internationlal Cleaning Firm! We recieved another reference for him a couple of day's later from a different company, phoned him up and promised him the next vacancy available, pleased as punch he was.

Two weeks later, needed a full time cleaner, lots of driving and night work, so gave him a call, he accepted, and we have not looked back since, works all the hours I can throw at him, client's love him and his standard of work is very, very good, already sending him to college (english lessons), has a bright future with us if he carries on like he has been.

In my experience, it pay's to be selective When it comes to hiring staff, bit of a pain at times, especially when your busy, I know, but bottom line it is worth it.

Regards,

Rob

[Prestige1]

It would be nice to be able to be selective, every sesion of inyerviews I ever hold only half turn up, I think it all depends where you live and opperate, very very low employment in my area and like what was said above the only people I atract are dead heads the type that if they came out of work the goverment would make their money up to allmost the same as if they where working. regards Phil

[Mr BSF]

Mr Jones has been very honest with his last post on this thread, £10-13 ph for big contracts doesnt happen (not in my/his world anyway), as ive pointed out even if this rate was possible, you wouldnt have the contract for long.

Its all down to staff motivation (hard work at first), getting rid of the bad apples (very easy),  then putting in your existing trusted staff from other sites, get the job settled, sit back and go on to the next project.

But what is the point in doing all this hard work, when if your rates are over the top, mr competitor will steal your job after 12 months, because he is sensible enough to lower his profit margin to keep it long term, I would much rather make £xx a week long term, than £xxx a week for only one year.

Regards

BSF

[Mike Jones]

Mr Jones has been very honest with his last post on this thread, £10-13 ph for big contracts doesnt happen (not in my/his world anyway), as ive pointed out even if this rate was possible, you wouldnt have the contract for long.

Its all down to staff motivation (hard work at first), getting rid of the bad apples (very easy),  then putting in your existing trusted staff from other sites, get the job settled, sit back and go on to the next project.

But what is the point in doing all this hard work, when if your rates are over the top, mr competitor will steal your job after 12 months, because he is sensible enough to lower his profit margin to keep it long term, I would much rather make £xx a week long term, than £xxx a week for only one year.

Regards

BSF
 On some things we agree

[Mr BSF]

what do you mean.. some things?

I'd say most things Mike,,, well.... apart from the pic