ColinD

  • Posts: 69
The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« on: September 21, 2006, 08:09:01 pm »
Being new to this forum has just confirmed to me why we as an industry, are perceived as being at the bottom of the food chain.

Yesterday, for example, somebody advocated the use of a Tesco's product for commercial cleaning. Someone else suggested Viakal! WHAT! Where is the professional? Can you walk into Tescos and ask for CoSHH on any of their products? Does Viakal come with a CoSHH data sheet attached. I do not think so! So you take your Tescos product onto site, and give it to cleaner who promptly uses it  on an area where she/he has just used the most dangerous product within the cleaning business, BLEACH, and the next thing you know you have a chemical reaction, possible chlorine gas and turn the lights out!

Come on, be serious. No wonder we, as an industry, are the laughing stockof other industries. Where are the professional? Quote a contract? Are we still using the back of a fAg packet. Do we include, in our costings, an allowance for training, for innovation. No, because all we are interested in is ensuring that we Cut The Cost to Win The Contract and hope we can cover the add ons as and when required. Hopefully not getting caught by the powers that be in the process. H & S - DWP - Home Office. The list goes on.

Minimum wage goes up as of 1st October, how many of you, so called professionals, costed this in a year ago? It was flagged up, by Government, over a year ago, but only confirmed this year. What impact will that have on your profitability, or will you have to go back, cap in hand, and ask the client for more money, thereby raising the spector of a possible "out to tender" scenario.

It's about time. we, the individual cleaning companies started to work together to improve not only the the status of the Industry but the staus of the people that make our industry possible and viable. The Cleaning staff.

Please do not mention trade bodies. BICSc - CCA - et al. Once they become "accepted" they become to a greater or lesser degree a part of the problem.

Well I've started the ball rolling. As the AOL advert says: Discuss!

As a small note: I have been in the industry 30 years, there have been some improvements, but still anybody, but anybody, can set themselves up as a cleaning company and in doing so perpetuate the poor image that the industry has suffered and still suffers from.
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2006, 08:38:37 pm »
Hi Colin,

and welcome  ;D

So how do you suggest we work together?

Regards Rob.

Tim Downer

  • Posts: 656
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2006, 09:45:31 pm »
 :o  :o  :o

Where did that attack come from??

Thought you would want to be in the same boat as the rest of us??

I think as a newbie to this forum, that you would have trawled through the pages of "discussions" we have had.....and you would have found the answers to all you questions.....

i.e going into tesco and asking for a COSHH data sheet for Viakil when you purchase it etc etc

The only thing i will slightly agree on is that the cleaning industry can be perceived as being at the bottom of the food chain.......but only because of the cowboys out there cutting the prices right down, so that the only way they can make money is to cut back on staffing and the service originally quoted for and promised.......thus letting the industry down.

But hey......good for them.  ???

However, you will not find the likes of those here on this forum, because we all are professionals, whether we have 100 staff or more, or have only just started out on our own.....and have come here to gain the experience from the rest of us professionals. It is up to us to raise that standard for our customers by educating them in our professionalism etc and our service.....as has also been discussed on many previous boards.

So what do you suggest we do then Colin to inmprove on the slating you have given to the folks on this forum??

Tim




Have now popped in some Calms pills.......am very tired, but feel better now. And Welcome to the forum Colin if i have not already said so.     Tim

Tim Downer
Manager

"The difference between Ordinary and Extraordinary.....is that little Extra"

ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 10:00:27 pm »
As I said in the second from last para - discuss. The fact we are communicating, even like this, and the fact you took the time to respond means that someone, somewhere cares. I don't know, all I understand is that we, the people at the coal face matter, and therefore we can, should we so wish, make a difference.

The sad thing about my last two nights on the forum is that I am reading requests from people for information that I would regard as basic.  If they are entering the world of Commercial, Industrial and Retail cleaning, starting businesses with minimal knowledge and expertise then that just perpetuates the sorry state of the industry and the appearance of the total lack of professionalism. If a prospective client accessed this forum and read some of the requests for information and help, then god help us!

BICSc, well I am a member, for what good it does. Most of the power sits with those in ivory towers directing, so they think, operations from on high.

Before anything can happen, open and honest debate must be had about the influx of unskilled, unsupervised, non regulated cleaning business that set up one day and are gone the next. Image. Professionalism, expertise, training,
industry standards, the list could be endless. But if we are to be part of an industry that we can be proud of then something must be done. Let's tie up the horses, park the saddles, put the six guns in the drawers. It's about time we let Wyatt Earp, Billy the Kid and Big John Wayne retire, no more roundups and cattle drives.

Hey ho another diatribe!
 
Nils illegitimi carborundum

Prestige1

  • Posts: 332
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 10:26:26 pm »
Colin I detect a lot of anger in your statement? I suppose when you first started all them years ago you new it all? everyone needs a starting point, and this board provides an excellent service for beginners to ask the question and for those who know from experience give the others that benefit, I have to agree with Tim,

If your doing your bit and portraying a professional image and I know there’s loads doing the same on here, and through the help of this board, the image will change. The ways in which you have slated newbie’s questions have added to the lack of knowledge out there! for newbie’s may now not want to ask that question adding to there inexperience.

 You have only posted 11 times! I suggest you watch the forum for a while and see for yourself.

Regards Phil
Who Dares Wins

Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2006, 10:32:59 pm »
Colin,

The facts are that cleaning will always attract people who have very little business knowledge etc etc but most of what i have seen on here are decent hard working people that want to learn and  better them selves.They come here to seek advice!

We all have to start somewhere, were you born a professional or did you learn your skills?

Rob.

 


ColinD

  • Posts: 69
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2006, 12:47:57 am »
Profane apologies. As a "newbie" I was unaware that I was not entitled to an opinion, or able to raise an issue!

I may have only read a few posting, but from what I see the old ethos still persists. Amateurs entering a field of play without understanding the rules of the game!

Of course we all had to start somewhere. But it is the where we start and how we start that determines where we end up, or where the industry, that we are all a part of, eventually ends up.

More damage, to the image of the industry, can be done by enthusiatic amateurs than can be imagined.

It's very noble to provide information and advice to those seeking it, and good luck to those that seek advice, but using such a forum to seek such fundamental answers to questions that I have seen asked is very worrying. 

More worrying is some of the advice that has been proffered by people who, supposedly, have experience and knowledge.

A little knowledge is dangerous, a little knowledge without the experience to support the implementation can be catastrophic!

Obviously I am too old and lack the tact to be part of this mastabatory society.

If I hit several nerves or bruised a few egos, ce'st la vie.





Nils illegitimi carborundum

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2006, 12:48:26 am »
Afraid I agree with an awful colin has said so far!
I believe I even stated as such in a recent post, H & S, Employment Law, COSSH etc are all costs that professional companies must bear, the amount of times I see requests for information on this forum and others, asking about these things and more is truly amazing! Most are answered by helpful and willing people, but supplying a couple of bits of paper, as a real H & S policy (risk assessments) and then believing that you have complied with the regs is wrong.
You have to have the training , the systems and procedures in place, and you have to show that they are adhered to.

Domestic chemicals, aagain I have mentioned this before, as well as using the clients equipment (duty of care etc), in my opinion, you should never use domestic cleaning products.

Colin, please do not be offended by this, but believe me, there is no point shouting at people, you will not force them to change their behaviour, logical, reasoned argument works best, honest! The worst of it is, that it's not only the cleaning companies attitudes that have to change, but we, as an industry, have to educate our client's as well.

Most contracts, as you state, are actually awarded on nothing but price, again in a previous post, how often have you heard from a prospect that they require 2 cleaners for two hours per night or similair? As a general rule, on all but the bigger sites, the person who decides the contract winner has no training or knowledge about the materials, cleaning methods or the times that the cleaning operations should take, we, as an industry should educate them in the realities, why do so many client's have real trouble in finding good cleaners? Well I believe one reason is that they think of cleaning as a cost, not an investment, it does nothing for their bottom line, so they push down the actual cost of the contract, then complain about poor service! We have to change this perception, and I believe, slowly it is begining to happen, but we within the industry have to make sure that we play our part too, by giving our prospective client's real choice, value, quality and above all real profesionalism.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

Art

  • Posts: 3688
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2006, 02:22:05 am »
Hi Colin,

 Those were really all inspiring posts, but if you want to be seen as the saviour of the cleaning industry i think you might want to change your email for starters " colin death" now that's definately not professional.

Why not give all the cowboys on the forum abit of an insite into how you started.

Arthur

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2006, 07:16:23 am »
Hi All

Personally I believe there is no problem with using certain 'domestic' products - one I frequently use is shiny sinks bought from Tescos, yes you can get COSHH from Tescos but what did I do?  Simple call the manufacturer and request it, I had a copy emailed me within 15mins!  But also agree it is not professional to attend a site with the likes of flash spray or viakal!

I feel what companies in the industry need is a strong management structure.  To many times people take on staff without knowing a thing about management, cleaners are then left to get on with it without proper instruction or supervision, people need direction and encouragement, training and safe working conditions, given these performance will always improve. I also hate the old belief that 'anyone can clean' - they can't! 

Clients are getting better as more laws come into place about H&S, COSHH, TUPE etc clients are understanding that they have to hire a firm who understands and will implement the requirements.  When I quote for a contract I put together a proposal that includes training, supervision, P&EL etc and I am not scared to sit infront of the managing and financial directors and fight my corner as to why these costs are necessary, more often than not I will be awarded the contract for this attitude as they realise they are dealing with a professional, someone who wants to run the contract properly long term.

I must admit some 'newbies' annoy me with their daft questions and I don't post as much as I used too.  It would be nice to see more 'advanced' (for want of a better descriptive word) managers on here to discuss issues further up the chain than - how do you clean a toilet!

Good discussion, although Colin did start off pretty agressive - but hey it got us posting!

Fox

 

supernova77

  • Posts: 3547
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2006, 08:44:18 am »
Quote
but if you want to be seen as the saviour of the cleaning industry i think you might want to change your email for starters " colin death" now that's definately not professional.

Perhaps Death is his actual surname - Hence the email address?

Andy

dustdees

  • Posts: 334
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2006, 08:45:53 am »
 Hello Colin,

Firstly, who the hell do you think you are?

If you think you know everything that is to know the why be on this forum, you don't need advice, in your opinion  anyway.

f you look into thing properly before you go blasting off at the newbies amongst us, you can go an buy domestic products and ask for COSHH sheets. SOme of the domestic products do a much better tan some of these overated so called profesional products.

As far a loking at the wages increases due to the minimum wage changes, I don't need to bother with that as I always pay my staff over that limit anyway, because you need to pay a decent wages to get decent staff. DOESN'T CAUSE ME A PROBLEM AT ALL!!!

'm more interested in providing a full-on Customer Service, than making to much money.

If you think that we are the bottom of the so called "food chain", then you can't have much of an opinon of yourself and your staff.

 think you will make alot of enemies in this forum if you don't lower your tone and help the newbies no slating them all the time.

Let's face it. we have all had to get our information from somewhere in the early days. It's another information point , not where you go to be ripped off by a know it all.

Carry on like this and you will end up getting banned from the board, mind you do you need to be on here if you think we are the lowest of the low!!!

whispers

  • Posts: 35
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2006, 09:49:31 am »
Right just to put another angle on this PRODUCTS issue…I have tried to build my business around what the customer wants, as a mother and home owner I no what I want to use in my home in the way of cleaning products.

You don’t have to use fancy products that you can only get from a suppler in customers homes, for one customers don’t like it, they think your prices are based on these “fancy” products and your are bigging your self up by using items they have never heard of, in my book what customers want is good old fashion honesty >free< and a service that gets results >hard graft< I use products that the customer under stands >layman’s< and they feel happy and comfortable that what we are using is what they would use them selves if they had time to clean, that’s why most customers get a cleaner in in the first place.

If you specialize in certain areas like offices, ovens windows etc then yes certain products are invaluable to the cleaner.

I operate for the domestic homes and customers who want to see a friendly face, I base all my quotes on honesty and for us it’s the best policy. But we are professional as well.

I must admit a few questions that have been asked made me squirm a bit in terms of being nieve, but you have to learn and lets be honest here if you start up a cleaning company you have to follow through, its hard work and many don’t see the end results because of a lack of understanding of the industry.
The Air of Heaven is that which blows between a horses ears...

Liahona

Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2006, 10:20:25 am »
Colin, if I agree or not agree with your comments are for now irrelevant. That you do not know that Tescos supply C.O.S.H.H. sheets for all of their products is a comment from someone who is lacking in education on a very simple subject. This being the case would put you in the bracket of needing advice from people on this forum, which you have been advised on accordingly. We all need help of some sort every now and again and this is a good place to get it. The fact, again, that you know so little of the basics of C.O.S.H.H. and Tescos that you indeed need just the basic of help. Best, Dave.

DP

  • Posts: 576
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2006, 11:10:46 am »
Lol I was a bit like Colin when I came on here, Guns blazing still am some times. Its like shaking a can of worms upside down to see what falls out!

Aggression is the fastest way to get answers, facts and results and works extremely well. Dependant on how much people complain decides on how much you can extract as fact, rubbish or useful information. Its great!

I'll let you decide on which bit the simple "moaning" falls in to. ::)

I agree with Collin in that certain levels of the cleaning industry are still perceived to be the bottom of the food chain. Not forgetting that there are many specialised areas in the industry that command years of training and qualification.

So in respect of general cleaning, who's fault is it? Lets face it, how can you train somebody properly when there is absolutely no money to do it? Who wants to invest in a perfect stranger when the law says they can walk away tomorrow.

Although the industry has evolved as it always will do with technology and trends, the only real measurable steps have been evoked by government legislation like health and safety, insurance levels and minimum wage and haven’t we all complained about those!

   
"Bottom  feeders" is a bit harsh, but if the cap fits then who am I to argue!  ;)


  
Everyone seems normal untill you get to know them!

Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2006, 11:20:27 am »
Colin,

Congratulations at being in the cleaning industry 30 years.

I do not know what experience you had when you started but new entrants have got to start somewhere.

Is it wise to use Tesco products on the job, or a vac that can be bought in the shops ?

Trouble is boundary's are getting  blurred, As Henrys Sebbos , Karacher etc can be found in retail outlets

There is also probably in some instance a problem with training for new entrants,

Unlike carpet cleaning there does not appear to be two day courses on Starting in Contract Cleaning, , Domestic Cleaning, or Builders Cleans.

I do gain the impression that some people are entering the field by bluff, ie Window Cleaner adding an extra service etc  but I would imagine this has happened for years.

Colin I am looking forward to your contributions



Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2006, 12:12:44 pm »
Bit of a hot thread this one!!!!!!!!

A lot of client's/prospects think cleaning is easy, normally carried out by people with little education/skills. It is in fact one of the easiest industries to enter, but one of the hardest to climb the ladder in, this is because as one contibutor has stated, there is very little money available for training and personnel development.

Yes client's and prospects are beginning to realise, that we as an industry have to have trained people on site, but, this is mainly in the fields of H & S, COSHH etc, very rarely, in actual cleaning (after all the wife does it at home, how hard can it be?)  ;D.

This is the sort of mindset, that we as an industry, have to overcome. For more than a few years now, the buzzword whithin the industry has been"Best Value", what does this really mean? E - Tendering is now beginning to take hold in the industry, and trust me, these are based on price, we have independent consultants visiting our client's and potential client's promising to cut their business costs in every sector that you can imagine, from, electricity, rates, stationary, and yes, you guessed it, cleaning.

DP mentioned that a new employee can walk away at any time, so why really bother with training, well the simple answer is personnel selection, references, CRB check, a real interview, this process will prevent many from starting the job in the first place, so why do we all not do this? Simple really, the industry just wants to fill the vacancy as quickly as possible. Do we as an industry, really offer our staff a logical career path, with the opportunity for progression, 95 times out of a 100, no we do not.

Regarding chemicals, domestic and commercial, it is a legal requirement to have COSHH sheets for all chemicals that are used by your staff. If you prefer to get them from Tesco's, your choice, does it really matter?
However, you must have sysytems in place to ensure that your client is aware of the dangers of mixing even well known household chemicals!

However using your client's equipment is another matter, as an employer, you have a duty of care to ensure that all electrical equipment is actually safe to be used, are you going to insist on a PAT test, on at least an annual basis?
Where you purchase equipment/chemicals has no real bearing on this, as long as you comply with the legislation, however, by dealing with a commercial janitorial supply company, you gain access to all sorts of help and advice, that electrical retailers and Tesco's cannot match.

You may be forgiven for thinking that there is no training available for small/starup cleaning business's, but the fact is there is a huge amount, your local chamber of commerce holds many short courses on a wealth of subjects, administration/payroll/accounts/H & S/advertising/employent law etc. Of course specific training, can be obtained from BICS(British Institute of Cleaning Science), Prochem and indeed your freindly local jan supplier! amongst many others. You just have to invest the time and money in obtaining this knowledge, not just purchase a couple of vacuum cleaners, mop bucket and cloths ;D

Only by singing from the same songsheet are we going to change the world!!!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

a55essor

Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2006, 01:36:50 pm »
Hi
I think every body should have training in what ever their profession is.
If you go to your local college you will see they do nvq level 1 and 2 in the cleaning industry,  they teach you most of what  COLIN is ped off with, so I think a little research was called for, As a ex nvq assessor I ensure all my staff are trained on site then I bring a external verify in to finish off. so colin is wrong to class all cleaning businesses as Del Boy out fits 
KL

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2006, 02:20:39 pm »
To be fair, I don't think that was Colins main point KL, yes he came out all gun's blazing, but all that does in my opinion, is deflect the the real point of his post.
You take the time and trouble to train your employee's, but how many others go as far?
Many talk about H & S, training etc, to their customers, but in a recent survey that we conducted 80% of respondents stated that they were unhappy with the standard of cleaning offered by their present provider!
Ideal for converting into client's you might say, but when meeting them face to face, same old story, too expensive, it's only cleaning!

If you do not invest in proper training/procedures, systems etc, you have the ability to go low on any contract, this I believe is Colins main argument, but as stated in previous posts, we also have to change our client's and prospects attitudes as well.

I think we all know of firms, that cut all sorts of corners, only by sticking to our guns, will we educate our client's, perhaps then they will stop driving down the cost of contracts, to, frankly unsustainable levels.

A few years ago I attended a couple of meetings at the then NFMW &GC, just when poles were beginning to make an impact within window cleaning, in a very nice way I tried to convince a few members of the commitee to offer real training for their members, but was informed that this was beyond their brief, one of the major manufactures of waterfed sysytems, took it upon themselves, to offer this training, and as far as I know, have never looked back!

The point I am trying to make is, do we really want some govt. department setting out regualations for us, like best practice or standards? Or, as an industry, should we be responsible? I know which side of the fence i'm on!!!

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

martin19842

  • Posts: 1945
Re: The Modern Day Cleaning Industry - What!
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2006, 04:23:17 pm »
hi there

well i'vd skimmed through it all,

deffinately havent got the time to read it all, far too busy.

the voice of reason, the voice of experience, all great instruments to be blown.

some people will take advice, and some wont, what more can you say

you cant help all the people all the time.

have a great weekend eveybody, out carpet cleaning tomorrow, and a busy week, and even busier october planned, so all looks god for me.

and whlst that might be selfish, as long as my frinends, family and business colleagues are happy thats all that really matters.

regards

martin