[Peter Fogwill]

Foxman, where did you get the 1 in 20 people prefer fans to pencil from?

I would believe that more people use pencil jets, and only because most suppliers are giving them out on the brushes as standard.  And because of this most window cleaners don't know any better.

Peter

[*foxman]

Pete, the figures are probably more like 1 in 50! We offer both types and the vast majority are not interested and most of the one who do try out of curiosity are not fussed with them - some even end up drilling through them to get the pencil jet effect!

[Peter Fogwill]

The cleaning power comes mainly from the brush scrubbing off the dirt, not the jets. The jets are more for the rinsing off what has been removed, so pencil tend to have the advantage as you have a better flow on the glass. I think about 1 in 20 (maybe much less) prefer fans to pencil. Most try them then go back to pencil.

Had a little search because I remember seeing a poll some time ago http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=45103.0  

More like 1 in 3 rather than 1 in 20.  Reading the actual posts tells a different storey 4 people prefer fan jets while 5 people preferred pencil, and out of the 5 people who prefer ed pencil 1 had the fan jets badly fitted by a supplier, another had not even tried fan jets, and at least one prefer ed the fan jets for larger panes.  I would say that was pretty even, and fans would have one the poll by a mile if they were supplied by as many suppliers.
Peter

[Peter Fogwill]

Pete, the figures are probably more like 1 in 50! We offer both types and the vast majority are not interested and most of the one who do try out of curiosity are not fussed with them - some even end up drilling through them to get the pencil jet effect!

So where are your figures coming from?  I am concerned that a newbie reading this will think that your figures could be correct.  If the figures were correct and backed up, I would even consider changing the way I supply brushes.

Peter

[Peter Fogwill]

I have taken this post down because I didn't like the way it read.  New post below.

So Foxman I take it we agree then that pencil jets are not any better than fan jets? and that the only reason that they are more widely used is because more people supply pencil jets on brushes as standard? 

And that any opinions, polls, or any advice given on the forum, should be discarded because this is not the real world?  And the people out in the so called real world know better than the folk in here, because they are not enthusiasts, and just get on with whatever rubbish they are given?

Peter

[Peter Fogwill]

OK, so what do you think might happen if you reversed that, and put the fan on as standard and offered the pencil jet as an option? 

You came on and stated 1 in 20 people preferred pencil jets, when you meant 1 in 20 people are supplied with pencil jets from your company.  Big difference, and you must see how it could confuse someone looking for advice on what jet is best.

Peter

[Ian_Giles]

Although I now use pencil jets, I started off with fan jets as supplied by Peter, worked great, no problems at all, well designed brush contained the spray.

I now use pencil jets, but my brush is also smaller than the original brushes I used from Peter and I prefer pencil jets in them as I can operate with a much lower flow rate.
To get a good 'fan' you need good pressure.

The rinse on rinse off debate doesn't bother me, I use the bentley superlite brush and rinse on and get absolutely perfect results.

The Bentley is a small brush, it needs two pencil jets to operate effectively, but two fan jets would be overkill because of the pressure/flowrate needed for the fans to operate at their best. and I don't think a single fan jet set in the middle of the brush would be effective enough.

On a larger brush you would need at least 3 pencil jets, but you only need 2 fan jets. Horses for courses methinks.

Peter makes good fan jets, perhaps I'll get a couple off him and stick them in a Bentley brush and compare like for like.

I know you can of course turn down the flowrate and use a fan jet by the way, but I think they operate better with a high flowrate.

Ian

[windowwashers]

Peter, what i'm saying is true there is no figure grasping going on. We supply a few thousand poles each year - the figures speak for them selves. We also offer fan jets as an option which isn't taken up very often. This is mainly to do with people prefering Pencil jets, simple as that. It's the PC or Mac arguement all over again!

I have only ever been supplied with pencil jets, so would not now the difference,

people buying a new pole 99 times out of 100 with go for whats on the pole and not the option as you say.

if my brushes came with fans I would be saying the same thing, people tend to stick with what they know or dont know and are supplied with.

thats my take on it.

Ian

[Peter Fogwill]

Fanjets are more expensive for a start. That turns people off - so the only true measure would be to have them the same price which may make a tiny difference but not much. I know people who hate them as much as you love em!

My pencil jets are the same price, as it is the same jet just modified.  I also know people that don't like fan sprays, and if they come on the phone looking for them fitted into a brush I supply them.  They usually give a reason, and I usually quietly don't agree with the reasoning, but the customer is always right even if they are not.  This is very very rare though. 

I don't hate pencil jets, if fan jets didn't exist, they would be the best.

Peter

[Peter Fogwill]

Although I now use pencil jets, I started off with fan jets as supplied by Peter, worked great, no problems at all, well designed brush contained the spray.

I now use pencil jets, but my brush is also smaller than the original brushes I used from Peter and I prefer pencil jets in them as I can operate with a much lower flow rate.
To get a good 'fan' you need good pressure.

Ian, have you tried them with a lower flow rate?


Peter

[Darren O]

Ive tried both but prefer fan jets far better for rinsing.

[Peter Fogwill]

I have only ever been supplied with pencil jets, so would not now the difference,

people buying a new pole 99 times out of 100 with go for whats on the pole and not the option as you say.

if my brushes came with fans I would be saying the same thing, people tend to stick with what they know or don't know and are supplied with.

thats my take on it.

Ian

Have to agree Ian, and very accurate perception.  That is why most Polls are hopeless at sorting these things out, they can only be judged by the comments of people who have tried both ways.

Peter

[Mike 108]

Peter (Fogwill)

I've been looking at my new Vikan rectangular brush (all red bristles) and my new Unger rectangular brush (same as the Vikan but all green bristles and with flayed ends).

The space created by removal of the middle row of bristles (to accomodate the jets) is not very big - there are still 5 tufts of bristles to the outside of each pencil jet (the jet is about 1" away from these bristles.

Would these bristles interfere with the spray from a fan jet?
Will extra bristles have to be removed?
How about having just 1 tuft of bristles at each end of the middle row so the fan spray can really spread out?

Will read later - got to go out.

Thanks

Mike

The

[Peter Fogwill]

Yes Mike I would remove the bristles and leave one in at each end.  It is amazing how many brushes I have seen that have came from supplier who have fitted fan jets.  I have even seen them with only enough bristles removed to make room for the jets.  No wonder some people don't like fan jets.

I would also make sure you have no bristles in the middle of the brush either between the 2 jets.

Some suppliers leave as much bristles in as possible so as they are not changing the density of the brush too much, but don't worry about that as these brushes glide over the glass better when they are not so dense.  There is nothing worse than a brush that is over dense.

I take it you do mean fan jets? In the second paragraph you mention pencil jets.

Peter

[Mike 108]

Thanks Peter

Mike