Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Wfp pricing
« on: May 07, 2006, 07:22:40 pm »
Just a question...which will probably earn me a  load of abuse rather than honest replies. ::)

I read through the discussion Steve K had a link to in his post about pricing.
Interesting stuff, but what I wonder is this....

Most of those prices were really low, and you merit a lot more, but now with the advent of WFP is it still justified? ???

Thing is, we've always had the reasoning that we're risking life and limb doing something that the customer wouldn't want to do by being up a ladder. :o

It can be horribly hard work at times.
Now you're on the ground with a big brush, is it really worth as much?
I think prices will come tumbling down.

It could be to the trad cleaners advantage if there's fewer of us, as we'll be able to justify charging a bit more :)

Don't give me all this "We clean the frames" as I can do that too for very little charge.

This isn't a criticism, nor trying to start arguements.
It's not "danger money" now....
Honest opinions?

Rog. :)

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 23586
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2006, 07:31:26 pm »
You just know you want to don't you Squeaky? You're simply gagging for it! ;D
It's a game of three halves!

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2006, 07:33:59 pm »
When I show customers the van the first statement is, "I bet that cost a bit" they then realise price will be high.

jeff1

  • Posts: 5855
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2006, 07:35:45 pm »
Hi Rog

No argument from me i am still trad, but i am going wfp in the next few months, and to be honest i cant wait,

I have already been priming my customers for the change over.
Most of there comments have been about the price being increased, because after i have explained about the overall out lay, and the cost of producing pure water, a few of them have told me to increase there price to help.
I dont intend to increase prices but keep them the same
and my feet will be firmly on the ground, got to be quiker so my profit is bound to increase.
Don't forget one point, in the back ground i think it is probably the insurance company's who started the ball rolling with the hse on ladders, if this is the case i think we will find it very hard in the future to obtain any insurance

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 23586
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2006, 07:41:09 pm »
Jeff1 - just a suggestion - if your customers say they expect a price increase and you feel bad about doing it just start saying "Only a modest increase, I just need enough to put towards replacing filters and things as they wear out" then add 10% and round up to the nearest quid.

I mean to say they're obviously gagging for it aren't they? ;D
It's a game of three halves!

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2006, 07:53:38 pm »
Squeeky

I think we are safe there is more glass than window cleaners and with a shortage of 1 million houses in the uk and more and more houses having conservatorys built and having there fascias and gutters changed to white upvc.
We have just got a faster cleaning mechanism to keep up with it all.

My customers are happy with what i charge and even if some one came along for half the price i can confidently say i would not lose any customers.

Dave

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2006, 07:54:50 pm »
Now this is what I mean, it's already starting to drift off towards how great it is, and how much money you can earn... ::)
That wasn't the question.

The fact is, you made the choice to spend all that money....why should the customer have to fund it?

You're not even taking risks now, as you keep telling us. ???

H h20

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2006, 07:59:18 pm »
Rog,your question is still having a dig at wfp >:(,so you will get replies that don`t meet your request,Gaz

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2006, 08:03:24 pm »
Rog,your question is still having a dig at wfp >:(,so you will get replies that don`t meet your request,Gaz
No it's not.
If you can't answer it, don't bother posting.
There's a simple question in there.

Chris Cottrell

  • Posts: 3162
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2006, 08:06:10 pm »
I think prices will fall Squeaky is quite right in his thinking but the price fall i see coming is going to be in the commercial sector as more and more w/c's are able to reach further that will definitely drive prices down partly because many think the road to riches is in commercial

Chris

H h20

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2006, 08:10:57 pm »
Rog,you aint interested in wfp,all you have ever done is slag it off,so why the hell should we take you serious,and answer your question without our opinion,and theres another reply i have posted,Gaz

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2006, 08:11:19 pm »
Thankyou Chris, a serious response.

I'm not saying I should be charging more, but don't you think that as more people cotton on to the fact that it's no longer potentially dangerous then those prices on that forum are more like what it should be worth now? ???

In turn it could affect me too.

Chris Cottrell

  • Posts: 3162
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2006, 08:17:20 pm »
I have had 1 person cancel in the last 5 months because she didn't find value in what i was doing to quote her words " I can get one of those at the market in town and do that" not quite correct ... she cant, but still it used to take me 1 hr to do her house with the pole it was half that, she didn't feel my price was justified and she cancelled

Simply Clean Windows

  • Posts: 148
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2006, 08:34:54 pm »
my customers pay for there windows to be cleaned,if they are happy with the job they will pay,it does not matter if it was done trad of wfp,as long as they are clean.IS IT REALLY WORTH AS MUCH, my customers obviously think so. My customers never paid me danger money for going up ladders when i was trad,they have always paid for clean windows.
malcolm

bennymon

  • Posts: 816
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2006, 08:43:50 pm »
well said end of story ;)

JohnL

  • Posts: 723
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2006, 09:02:40 pm »
The problem with pricing is the approach and the attitude.

As some of you may know I have only been doing WC for a few months and slowly, but 90% of my customers are paying me up 100% more than they paid previously. OK some of them have been desperate to get a WCer for a long time but are prepared to pay higher after a considered approach for their business for reliable work, finished to a pretty high quality.

Contrary to my style of approach a local WFPer with a nice brand new van and kit with all the bits and twirls has told his customers that they will have '' to pay up to double to pay for his investment '' Needless to say I am aware he has lost business and could lose more because he is also telling his customers the kit will allow him to do the job in a shorter time.  ???  Of course I now he will pick up new work which WFP is ideal for and will be successful.

We are all aware the business ie the customer, has to pay for any investment over time but it is the way one approaches the knotty problem of price increases that makes you credible.

JohnL
West Somerset. On the edge of the Quantocks and looking at The Exmoor National Park.

macc

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2006, 09:13:22 pm »
Now this is what I mean, it's already starting to drift off towards how great it is, and how much money you can earn... ::)
That wasn't the question.

The fact is, you made the choice to spend all that money....why should the customer have to fund it?

You're not even taking risks now, as you keep telling us. ???


1. because it is.  ;D

2. if the utility comanys etc pass on the costs of investment to the customer why shouldnt we do the same.  ::)

or is it some think only wfp opperaters should swollow all costs.  >:(

Morph

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2006, 09:27:15 pm »
Rog,

Trying to answer your original question:  I think over the years I have thought about the dangers involved in doing my job, and that is obviously one of the top reasons for residential customers employing my services, but not the only reason.
There are no dangers in a lot of maintenance jobs residential customers have done.  people haven't the time or the inclination to do the job themselves.  If they have the money they'd rather get someone else to do the boring job of cleaning their windows.  Even if they live in a bungalow, it's a 10 minute job for us for £5, or an hour at least for them to do a rotten job.
If windowcleaners have sold their services on the risk factor, most customers are relieved to know you won't be taking such risks anymore whilst on their property.
As for higher prices:  When I started wfp I had a proper explanation letter of introduction which people read and 99% said, "I suppose this means the price is going up?"  None of my prices went up, that was a selling feature for me..
New safer sophisticated method for the same price!
As for commercial work, well if wfp cleaners are worried about a price war, maybe they were being too greedy to start with!  There is a commercially acceptable cost structure to everything, some may have a standard of service that justifies going above, some may cut costs and go below.  The client decides what best suits their requirements.







Next.......... 8)

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2006, 09:45:44 pm »
Now this is what I mean, it's already starting to drift off towards how great it is, and how much money you can earn... ::)
That wasn't the question.

The fact is, you made the choice to spend all that money....why should the customer have to fund it?

You're not even taking risks now, as you keep telling us. ???


If we keep prices the same, how are they funding it?

If they tell us to increase it why should it matter to you?

They dont pay for the risk, but the job done.

And if it is a greater risk, why dont you reduce yours?

supernova77

  • Posts: 3547
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2006, 11:15:05 pm »
It's not about taking risks or risk money...

My customers pay for a service. It doesn't matter what tools I use to provide that service as long as the service is good.

People will always pay someone else to clean there windows.

Pricing is all relative too... I target wealthy areas which means I can charge that little bit more and people will pay it.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2006, 11:31:16 pm »
Pricing is all relative too... I target wealthy areas which means I can charge that little bit more and people will pay it.
Yeah, that's what I do.
I won't do any cheapo estates.(like the one I live in ;D)
I'm an upper-class glass cleaner.  8)

steve k

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2006, 01:24:16 am »
I wasn`t aware people paid me danger money when I clean Trad... ??? ???
Of course they don`t!!
I charge for the house...I give a price and then turn up to clean it.
If my WFP will do the job, it gets used... if it is not suitable, I go trad if it is safe to do so.
If I cannot use trad safely and WFP will not do a good job...it does not get done...no problems...customer is told and I don`t lose any sleep over it.
I think that has happened once by the way.
I certainly do not say" oh, by the way, I use WFP so the cost will be double" or words to that effect.
I charge the customer a fair price for cleaning the windows based on the time I expect to take. What they are paying for is the end result...clean windows..how I choose to give them that is down to my choice of tools...WFP or trad...simple!!

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2006, 06:53:29 am »
Rog,
I don't think it is about risk, I've never charged 'danger money' in my life, the greater the level of difficulty in the job, the more I charge.
That doesn't change with WFP.
Getting at some windows over conseratories for instance is quite hard work, 3rd or 4th floor work is demanding on the body too, and the higher you go, the longer it takes (even if it is still far quicker than trad)

Will prices tumble?

Won't make an awful lot of difference in the housing estates, although WFP is generally quicker, the differential between the 2 methods isn't great enough to make a difference.

On bigger work, or georgian and leaded work then prices could well tumble because fools think that just because they are faster they should drop their prices.
It isn't just about speed though, your running costs are higher, there is more work involved outside of the workplace itself.
The initial investment is high to begin with and you have to replace things as they wear out.
As I have said before, you don't spend out large sums of money, then charge less for the work you do, you may be quicker, but if you charge less you are hardly going to be better off in the long run.

As time goes by, will customers be prepared to pay more to have their windows done trad instead of WFP?
Highly doubtful I think, some big house that a WFP'er is charging just £15 for and can do in 20 or 25 minutes is hardly likely to want to pay £45 for to a trad cleaner that won't be able to do the job any quicker than an hour and a half to 2 hours.
And that is the kind of time differential you are talking about on a big house, particularly if they are georgian.

On the estate houses the prices won't change too much, there is a pretty big difference in what each window cleaner whether trad or WFP charge anyway.

And of course as time goes on it is also highly likely that working off ladders will be banned, and they will only be used for access only.

The health and safety laws will only get tighter, even if only in dribs and drabs, but in time it will happen, it isn't if, it's when.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2006, 07:46:39 am »
All will say guy's is the minute you start charging less because you are quicker with a WFP is the minute you hang yourself. Don't lose sight of why your doing this job, among many reasons the main one should be the opportunity to earn a good living.

When you price a job think of it as you would have done traditionally. Whenever I price a new job I always walk around with the customer, talking as their friend not as a salesman I point out that we will clean the window woodwork/PVC as part of our service. I point to the areas I mean and have yet to find a house with gleaming framework so it's normally easy to highlight dirt and grime. I laugh when they tell me I won't be able to clean the window above the conservatory and then reassure them I will clean ALL the windows as I use a WFP system. This way the customer has seen two main selling features and is not bothered HOW we clean them, all they want is the finished results and normally ASAP!!

If a customer has a beautiful garden explain you won't be digging Ladders into the grass leaving marks everywhere etc.. etc.. the list is endless

Occassionally I have the odd new customer say "that was quick" to which I always reply yes but look at the results and ask them to come and check the work, this is when taking your time on a first clean is invaluable!! I also drop into the convesation as we walk around that I haven't come across many traditional window cleaners using a squeegee that cost £100's to put together, hence why they take a bit longer than me!

I am fortunate as I work in the South and our average 3 bed semi is charged at £12/£15, I know in other areas it is harder to get this costing so the last thing I want is for people to start worrying that they take less time and so REDUCE their price!!

You don't pay less using a Drive through Restaurant than if you sat inside the same restaurant so why should we be different and drop our prices just because we are quicker??

Good luck, Trev

Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2006, 08:17:10 am »
I think this is losing direction really.
It getting into waffle about being quicker (which against me it isn't). :-\

Cheers anyway to those who answered sensibly (Pj, Steve, Chris and Ian).

And of course as time goes on it is also highly likely that working off ladders will be banned, and they will only be used for access only.

The health and safety laws will only get tighter, even if only in dribs and drabs, but in time it will happen, it isn't if, it's when.
Still clinging to that hope Ian? ;)

I was working next to a H&S officer last week on building site and he looked up and said "morning, nice day for that job!"

It's not going to happen.

Morph

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2006, 08:44:51 am »
Quote from: Squeaky Clean. link=topic=19783.msg146914#msg146914 date=I was working next to a H&S officer last week on building site and he looked up and said [b
"morning, nice day for that job!"[/b]


He may have said that, Rog, but he was thinking, "I've got your card marked Sunshine"! ;D

sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2006, 09:27:59 am »
Quote
  He may have said that, Rog, but he was thinking, "I've got your card marked Sunshine"!   

Gonna be changing to wfp soon, honest guv.  ;D

Won't be changing any of my prices either.

Sunshine
To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2006, 09:38:05 am »
Now for the serious reply Squeaky.

As for us trad window cleaners being able to charge more for still doing the job the 'dangerous' way. This comment is absolutely absurd in my opinion. If we're not happy with the dangers then jump on the wfp bandwagon.

I also don't agree with upping the charges to fund your investment either. From what's been said about the speed of wfp you should cover your costs in building a bigger customer base and work increase in no time.

I can't see domestic wfp's prices being slashed. From what i can gather there is a shortage of cleaners to jobs ratio anyway. As more decide to invest and go into commercial work though, quite possible that people will start to quote a lot cheaper for fear of not getting the job.

Sunshine
To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2006, 10:08:17 am »
All will say guy's is the minute you start charging less because you are quicker with a WFP is the minute you hang yourself.
Well said Trev. Dai

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2006, 10:23:09 am »

As for us trad window cleaners being able to charge more for still doing the job the 'dangerous' way. This comment is absolutely absurd in my opinion. If we're not happy with the dangers then jump on the wfp bandwagon.
::) I quote myself..."I'm not saying I should charge more" and I'm perfectly happy with the dangers.

I also don't agree with upping the charges to fund your investment either. From what's been said about the speed of wfp you should cover your costs in building a bigger customer base and work increase in no time.
I agree, that's the closest to my thinking so far....


I see we're back to speed again, it's nothing to with the question asked.
I just think more customers are going to start questioning prices now that the job is an easy safe one.....

sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2006, 10:42:18 am »
It may well be easier and safer using wfp but that's down to the shrewd business investment of wc's who opt for this. They should not be punished for this and deserve to get the same going rate as trad cleaners. No more and no less.

Sunshine
To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2006, 12:22:26 pm »
Hmm, can't remember the last time I charged someone for the dangers incurred by going up a ladder, have always based my prices on how long it will take me? Anyway, enough about safety or speed, isn't it more to the point that the customer pays us to CLEAN their windows and not HOW we do it, so whatever method you use as long as the windows are clean what does it matter?
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2006, 12:54:21 pm »
Rog, ultimately it is all about speed, danger itself has absolutely nothing to with what you charge.
On a standard semi when you are working off ladders you don't even think about 'danger' it just doesn't come into it.

What might force prices down is the speed at which you work.

I'm still to do a post about a big bungalow with a large conservatory I did a few days back, 18 windows on the house, 10 windows on the conservatory 14 minutes to clean the lot.
Not a snowballs chance you could equal that dude, that's 28 in 14 minutes (including frames too) 30 seconds a window, and if I hadn't bothered with the frames it would have been quicker still.

I'm sorry mate, you might be as quick on a small house with 10 windows, or near enough to make no difference, but as the property gets bigger, or there are more panes to clean you will not match WFP.

And these are speeds that the majority of average window cleaners can achieve too, whereas the pace that you work at, very few trad window cleaners will be able to match, because I do concede that you are very quick.

But your question has to come down to speed and not danger.

It is the fact that you are quicker with WFP that might drive prices on some work downwards.
And as I said, it will also impact on the ladder user because, based purely on time, prices could drop by 2 thirds.
A totally wrong way of pricing, but unfortunatley many will be blinkered and only look at how long it takes to do the job and will ignore all the setup costs and running costs etc.

And yes, I do still think that ladders will be a no no at some point in the near future.
There is always another little step that H & S can take to further reduce risks, I don't agree with it I might add, but it will happen, eventually they will take the viewpoint that window cleaning off ladders is avoidable and cost effective.

It cannot now be denied that there is a viable and affordable alternative, and of course more and more cleaners are making the change.
But how long do you really think it will take for those that make the rules to realise that there is no longer a reason to allow window cleaners to work off ladders (exceptional circumstances notwithstanding).
And another area that pressure will be applied from is the insurance companies.

But am I clinging to the hope that ladders will be banned?
Of course I'm not, those still on ladders make it possible for us using WFP to keep our prices up for one thing. ;)

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2006, 04:24:47 pm »
I must admit that I priced a farm house up recently and charged less than I would've had I not had a WFP.

Then I'd probably have charged £35, but I really wanted the account, so charged £25.  It's not big, only 18 windows, but technically time consuming when done traditionally (high ground floor windows and quite a few of them small paned and pentagon shaped).

But it has good parking, easy access all round and it's by a place I pass at LEAST twice per day.

I also like accounts I can get too - close to home - and do by myself after I drop Wor Lass off home at 2.00 pm/2.30 pm; so this was ideal for me and after the initial clean, I reckon I'll be to do it 20 minutes or so.

So yes, WFP can and does bring window cleaning prices down.

(I'll probably get a 'telling off' from Ian, over a pint, at some stage for doing what I did)

ronaldo

  • Posts: 840
Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2006, 04:28:33 pm »
£25.00 quid for 20 miutes work! sounds like a good account to have in your book to me Tosh.  :D
A bad days fishing is better than a good days work !

Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2006, 04:31:32 pm »
I must admit that I priced a farm house up recently and charged less than I would've had I not had a WFP.

Then I'd probably have charged £35, but I really wanted the account, so charged £25.  It's not big, only 18 windows, but technically time consuming when done traditionally (high ground floor windows and quite a few of them small paned and pentagon shaped).

But it has good parking, easy access all round and it's by a place I pass at LEAST twice per day.

I also like accounts I can get too - close to home - and do by myself after I drop Wor Lass off home at 2.00 pm/2.30 pm; so this was ideal for me and after the initial clean, I reckon I'll be to do it 20 minutes or so.

So yes, WFP can and does bring window cleaning prices down.

(I'll probably get a 'telling off' from Ian, over a pint, at some stage for doing what I did)


Spot on Tosh :)

Just one of the advantages of WFP mate.  You have the choice this way and can take on "awkward trad" work and still get a very good hourly rate.

As to Squeaky's original point my customers never paid me danger money. They pay me for a service that I offer them. Full stop. Yes a few said they wanted them done because they dont like climbing ladders. Trad or WFP the customer still doesn't have to do this so different methods but same result for the customer.

I have thought seriously about "niche" trad cleaning in the not too distant future. My conclusion: No it wont work as an added value service. Regs WILL tighten up and it will soon be the case that WFP is the accepted method of window cleaning in every sector including domestic.

I sometimes do think that Squeaky gets jumped on for sticking to his guns. I say good luck to him. Its his business and he is entitled to run it as he sees fit.

I honestly dont think his heart would be in his business using WFP and I undertand that.

Andrew



Re: Wfp pricing
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2006, 05:00:04 pm »

As for us trad window cleaners being able to charge more for still doing the job the 'dangerous' way. This comment is absolutely absurd in my opinion. If we're not happy with the dangers then jump on the wfp bandwagon.
::) I quote myself..."I'm not saying I should charge more" and I'm perfectly happy with the dangers.

I also don't agree with upping the charges to fund your investment either. From what's been said about the speed of wfp you should cover your costs in building a bigger customer base and work increase in no time.
I agree, that's the closest to my thinking so far....




I see we're back to speed again, it's nothing to with the question asked.
I just think more customers are going to start questioning prices now that the job is an easy safe one.....

Sorry but I don't see it that way, the comments I get, as a recent convert, are

"how much more will it cost?"

"I bet that cost you a bit"

Nobody, but nobody has brought up about it being quicker therefore cheaper.
They accept that the equipment has cost me and are happy not to be charged any more for the job.

Why don't you come back to this question when you have experience in WFP.

Maybe people you talk to raise this after being led by your negative comments.