[traps7]

I've re-routed my van hose between pump to hose reel. It was lying on the van floor but I've now taken it up and along the inside of the van roof before coming down to the hose reel to free up some floor space. This is in a Vivaro van.

I've since changed it back though because I seemed to be getting a few problems but don't know if they're related.

On the first job of the day the flow rate was well down. I usually have my controller set to 45/100. Even when ramped up to full the flow though it was not as powerful as usual. Also even dead end detection was not working even after re calibrating. The pump just kept going and going until ps was displayed to say the pump pressure switch had cut in. After some disconecting and turning the controller on/off and up/down it seemed to be working ok for the rest of the day. But the same thing happened the next day.

Weird?

Anyone else ever experienced anything similar? I wondered if it was air in the system which I know will compress as apposed to liquid that won't or if it was syphoning back into the tank through the pump and then the tank outlet which is at the bottom.
My 500l tank has a vent on the cap and there is no RO or DI onboard as it's transferred from a garage static.

Any ideas anyone?

[gto]

Maybe you trying to suck too high, try an anti syphon valve to start with.

[traps7]

Where can I get one of those?

[Ian Sheppard]

I suspect the issue is a air lock as the hose now runs up and over the  pump.

With the hose being high the pump has to work much harder to push water in the van which is why the control is detecting the pump pressure switch.

You may need to drop the hose down lower. It may be that you need to run the pump with a lower flow to clear any air lock, once there is a flow then try to recalibrate the controller.

The control is reporting what it sees the change to flow is due to re routing the hose. Hope this helps

Ian

[traps7]

Thanks Ian.

But why would the pump have trouble pushing water up a couple of feet in the van when it can push the water 60 ft or more up a pole no problem?

Also it did work ok in the end after playing around for a while although I don't really know how I sorted it. Problem was it would do exactly the same the next morning. How could the air get back in if I have not disconnected anything, the tank outlet is under water and there is a rectus 21 female on the end of the hose reel.

I've put the hose back down on the floor for now and it's working fine but I would still like to take it up and over and then back down to the reel.

[Ian Sheppard]

The the pump can push the water up the pole as it has run through the system and has built up enough pressure to push it up to the brush head.

With the hose close to the pump it will have to work much harder to build the same pressure in a short distance. Also lifting the hose up initially creating a ( n ) shape in the hose would have probably caused an air bubble.


Ideally you want the initial run of hose pump to reel to be  lower down so gravity helps the flow or try to avoid a n shape as it is the up bit in this shape where the air bubble will form once the pump stops as gravity will force the water back toward the pump

Hope this helps

Ian

[traps7]

It must be something else, not the hose being high because it happened again today and the hose has been on the van floor for a couple of days now. Worked fine yesterday but flow was well down on first job today, even with controller set to 99/100. It was coming out more like 25/100. PS never displayed and DE eventually did kick in after about 20 seconds. Calibration is set to 18/100. It always seems to be around that so I don't think that's the problem either.

I changed the pump over to a spare even though it's brand new and that seemed to cure it. The controller is brand new also. I also changed the hose from cheap green garden hose to Gardiners clear hose because the connections seemed to leak a bit with the cheap hose. I will see how it goes for a few days now and get back to you.  It's really bugging me. Thanks for your help Ian.

[Smudger]

are you using hozelock type fittings

i would say your initial problems were a result of lifting up the hose - i had this when i routed the hose over the wheel
arch - every morning low flow had to unplug and let gravity push the air out.

now you maybe getting air in the system overnight ( when it's not pressurized ) through the hozelock
connections as they have been disturbed.
change the o rings or wipe them over with silicone grease this will help them seal in the connector better.

Darran

[Mike #1]

when you are driving from one part of your round to the next as the tank has less water in.   The water will be going back in  to tank because the hose is higher than the tank . So for instance if you have 2ft of hose high up with no water in the pump is struggling to push the water through which will cause an airlock .

Go back to the original set up mate   MIKE

[traps7]

I have gone back to the hose being on the floor and it did it again this morning. Low flow and pump running on without detecting dead end for ages so it can't have been the hose being high.

I've noticed a couple of hozelock type connectors weeping so I'm guessing they could also be sucking in air though I can see no bubbles in the clear tubing. I'll try sorting these connectors next I think. Maybe wrap some ptfe around threads and do what Smudger suggested with a bit of vaseline. I've not really had a problem with these though since switching to the orange and black females from Gardiners. Maybe it's the males that are the problem.

I went back to my old pump today which seemed to sort the problem. Both pumps are in a plastic pump box with hozelock connectors in and out and two spade connector wires so very easy to switch over.

Hacked off with it because my system used to run great with no problems up until a few weeks ago. Now it seems to be something every day.

[Ian Sheppard]

I have gone back to the hose being on the floor and it did it again this morning. Low flow and pump running on without detecting dead end for ages so it can't have been the hose being high.

I've noticed a couple of hozelock type connectors weeping so I'm guessing they could also be sucking in air though I can see no bubbles in the clear tubing. I'll try sorting these connectors next I think. Maybe wrap some ptfe around threads and do what Smudger suggested with a bit of vaseline. I've not really had a problem with these though since switching to the orange and black females from Gardiners. Maybe it's the males that are the problem.

I went back to my old pump today which seemed to sort the problem. Both pumps are in a plastic pump box with hozelock connectors in and out and two spade connector wires so very easy to switch over.

Hacked off with it because my system used to run great with no problems up until a few weeks ago. Now it seems to be something every day.

This is an interesting situation I feel that the initial problem was caused with the hose being lifted and creating air bubbles. Now the hose is on the floor again you would expect the air bubbles to run through quite quickly. the clear hose will certainly help spot and air bubbles.

Low flow can also be caused by dirt or grit in the jets or as you suggest leaking connectors which allow air in to the hose.

1. When you fitted the new pump can i ask what size is it and ampage rating?

2. Also when you fitted the new pump did you change any other fittings?
3. Also I would ask did you use the auto cal function when the new pump was fitted?

The Slow DE detection does not surprise me here, The low flow will mean it takes a lot longer for pressure to build up so I would expect the DE to be slower too. The control will still DE the pump well before the pump pressure switch kicks in.
It will also mean the control will take longer to come out of DE

Another thought comes to mind how stiff is the hose wall? I ask this because the hose will expand and absorb some of the pressure when the pump is 1st switched on. Setting to 99 means the pump is trying to pump at 100% and you would expect a jet of about 3 - 4 metres at the brush head.

Once you have had a look at the connectors run the pump and get water flowing though to the brush head then use the auto cal on the control 18 seems on the low side.

At this stage I do not think the pump or control are at fault but there is a niggle in the system some where that we need to track down.

[Mike #1]

Change hozelock fittings mate . Mike

[traps7]

That's what I've done tonight Mike. The females are fine I think, it's the males.
I had some cheap green ones so I've put a couple of brass ones on. I'll see what that does.

[Ian Sheppard]

Let me know how you get on - between us one way or another we will sort this.

Ian

[traps7]

Worked fine straight away from the first house today with the new brass male hozelock style fittings. Had to increase calibration to 22. I'll try it like this for a few days, then try for a few days with the other pump just to make sure that all works fine with no air getting in or anything. Finally if I get that far and it's all been going fine I will try again with that hose over the top. I can't see why it wouldn't work as long as I force all the air out and make sure it's all sealed so no air gets in.
Ian, thanks for all the info. I've been meaning to reply to all the questions but it would take me ages and haven't had chance at the moment.

[Ian Sheppard]

Worked fine straight away from the first house today with the new brass male hozelock style fittings. Had to increase calibration to 22. I'll try it like this for a few days, then try for a few days with the other pump just to make sure that all works fine with no air getting in or anything. Finally if I get that far and it's all been going fine I will try again with that hose over the top. I can't see why it wouldn't work as long as I force all the air out and make sure it's all sealed so no air gets in.
Ian, thanks for all the info. I've been meaning to reply to all the questions but it would take me ages and haven't had chance at the moment.

No worries just glad you are out working.

IAN

[traps7]

Ok I think I know what the problem was. I had made a new pump box to accomadate the new pump. The pump was slightly bigger so it wouldn't fit in the box so I fitted it sideways. I think that's fine except it made it's very difficult to push all the air out. I've reconnected the new pump and box and twisted it all ways round and tilted it up and down until all the bubbles stop. Now it seems to be working fine. Only problem is I now have one of the two removable boxes which is not so easy to be taking in and out in winter.

I might have a rethink and do away with the box as I have the heater on in winter anyway although it does offer a degree of protection and looks neater. Either that or buy a bigger box.

I still want to try that hose up and over though. I think as long as I push all the air out it should be fine as once out it shouldn't get back in.

[Dave Willis]

I've had weeks of problems - i've got rid of every hoselock fitting and haven't had a problem since.

[traps7]

Heres the boxes:

[Ian Sheppard]

These look neat. You may find that you can reconfigure the hose up and over and as long as there are no air bubbles you should be fine.

Ian