[Mike_Boxall]

Having just finished reading Scot Youngs book 'Clean Start', I thought this would make an interesting poll.

For those that haven't seen the publicity, Scot claims that the industry is in crisis and needs to change.

He quotes the spiralling cost of insurance, lower and lower pricing levels, low productivity due to lack of investment in new equipment, poor wages, inadequate training and increasing legislation.

According to a recent NOP poll, the general public believes that the UK is not as clean as other countries, that hospitals are no cleaner (and may even be dirtier) than they were 5 years ago and, out of 1000, only 60 people put cleaning as a first choice of job.

Do you really think it's as bad as he makes out? Or is this just good PR for Scot Young Research?

For more details see - http://www.crisis-in-cleaning.com The website also gives details of an open debate scheduled for 29th July in London to raise the issues and discuss possible solutions.

My opinion.......Yes, it's every bit as bad as he makes out!

What do others think?

Regards

Mike Boxall

[Fox]

Ok can see the poll results but no replies as yet as to why people are voting as they are.

I haven't voted as I agree with some of the points but not all - for instance yes insurance is high - however this is the case for all companies especially with all the crappy advertising going on and people jumping on the band wagon.  As for lower pricing levels I totally disagree - yes we can quote ourselves out of the market and there will always be people who undercut, however when it comes to our industry I also believe that you can price to cheap.  Ever heard of best value?
Companies still believe on the whole 'you get what you pay for' and yes that is correct.  

Hardly anyone I know in this business skimp on their investment in equipment - yes have come across plenty that are tight on chemicals (as these usually come within the price of the contract arrangement) however training becomes important there - teach them the proper dispensing methods and all save money!

As for poor wages - do you think SYR have opened a paper to the recruitment page lately?  I think not - cleaners are paid well nowdays - infact better than ever before.

I do agree with the poll about our Country not being as clean as others but also think it is by no means the bottom of the pile.  

We are a growing industry with a professional approach and all companies in all sectors are realising that they need us to enable their everyday workers to have a clean environment that they are happy working in and making them more productive.  That's why we are NOT in crisis but just becoming the realisation that we should always have been.

Fox

[clear_interiors]

I live in Norwich and have a cleaning company,Clear Interiors.The only crisis i have, is getting staff.We pay a good rate ie.£5.50 per hour and guarantee 6 hours a day pay plus 20p per mile.But we just can't seem to get the right people. Any suggestions? We have advertised in papers,job centres,shop windows. I've run out of ideas help !

[Ian Gourlay]

Is that not due to poor management. Supervision. Spot Checking standards etc.

Contractors just taking the money and getting away with MURDER.  Yes a death in hospital due to poor cleaning standards is at least Man slaughter as far as I am concerned.

The managers of such companies should be imprisoned.
Alonf with The Cheif Executive of The Cleaning Company and the Hospital Trust for allowing standards.

They would have to have an audit trail to prove they were not negligent.

[Fox]

Hang on a minute!  You are all getting on your high horses regarding the cleaning - have any of you bothered to investigate this?

Do you know that superbugs such as MRSA are not caught through air borne infection? (Well it must be cleanliness then, I hear you all say).  In a way yes, but this bug is transfered through contact - it lives on the skin, so ask yourselves this - how many times a day does a care worker touch a patient?  How many times a day does an auxciliary help a patient with a drink?  How many times a day do patients get up to use the toilet, have a cigarette or use the pay phone?

I can tell you - a hell of alot more times than is feasible for a cleaner to be behind each movement wipeing each sink, surface and telephone every time they are touched.

I can't believe that you can be so blinkered on this subject!  Yes I agree in some hospitals the cleaning leaves alot to be desired (certainly not my local hospital though - it is very, very clean) however there are so many factors to the passing on of these 'superbugs'.  Infact many of you 'healthy' people out there could be carrying it around in the community and in your homes! - It is just that you are not susceptile to it.

What matters in these environments are team work, the blame does not lay with a single agency.  I agree something should be done - possibly starting with positive communication between all parties.

Just because our job descriptions are 'contract cleaners' it does not mean that we are alone responsible for these problems and I personally believe that most cleaners do get support from management and carry out their roles to the best of their knowledge and ability - but you tell me where is the support for the contract managers in this type of industry?

Frankly contractors are being used as scape goats and I find this despicable and you people who are agreeing with this consept leave me with a very bad taste in my mouth.

Fox

[DP]

Ian
How can I put this politely (and with respect) "That is the most stupid statement I have ever read".

MRSA is one of the most infectious diseases of our time. it has been found everywhere : on buses, shop door handles, cash machines, bank counters etc etc etc

A huge amount of the population carry it all the time and has been predominately associated with soar or dry throats (ever had one? then guess what).

It is easily killed by just about everything including things like washing up liquid, normal cleaning spray's or disinfectant.

The problem is that all of these including the strongest will only kill it for a very short period of time, at best about 30 minutes before it re-cultivates or becomes re infected by touch (such as in public lavatories).

In area's such as Hospitals where open wounds are ripe the problem can never ever be cured by cleaning, only reduced. I know of one cottage hospital that is spending £100k a year on Milton which is eating into the budget of its many needed other services trying to stay on top of the problem.

The future answer to this problem is thought to be in incorporating the arresting properties of certain chemicals into the paint finishes of items such as bed frames, surface coatings of floor coverings and impregnation of fabrics, and development is frantic across the country.

With a safe period of any one surface lasting approximately 30 minutes (and that’s without any recontamination by human contact) following cleaning, how can any one individual or organisation be responsible for infection.

Its interesting to know that considerable blame is being pointed at the lack of personal hygiene of doctors and medical staff and not the cleaning companies

Which ever escape goat you choose to nominate the problem goes way beyond programmed cleaning.

[Musicman]

Has anyone read the bullsh*t that James Traynor wrote for the literary showcase The Daily Record?

Not only is he misinformed but his grammar is appalling too. Seven spelling mistakes! Now this may seem picky but he's supposedly a journalist, and surely they have access to a spell-checker?

Perhaps he's trying to get in with The Guardian!

So if you do ever get to read this Mr Traynor could I recommend - firstly get your facts right; and secondly check your articles before sending them for publication - that's if you can tear yourself away from the internet porn!

[Ian Gourlay]

You are right I just thought I would provoke a reaction.

Regards

Ian


However I have had reports of the underbed areas not being cleaned.

Filth on a stoke \ward  in my local hospital

[DP]

Underbeds !!! what’s the point nobody sleeps there do they ?

Sorry just playing, but about the same mentality as the last answer and definitely on the same level as James Traynor, wonder if he will come up with a similar answer.

Yes I did read that rubbish and emailed him yesterday honouring him as a muppet and worthy candidate for the Daily Sport.  

[Fox]

Mike - I am wondering why you haven't put further thoughts forward afterall you started the poll, I would have though agreeing with SYR you may of had something to say about the strong opinions put forward so far.

DP & Musicman - yes defo!  Read the article too.  What a load of bull, reckon the only contact Traynor has had with the cleaning industry is getting someone to dress up as a french maid!

Ian - How can you post something so contraversial and then back down completely - to be honest it makes you look bad and will we ever take anything you post again seriously?

Fox

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Fox

I thought this may turn out to be an interesting topic. Unfortunately, I've not been able to spend as much time online as I'd like recently (and I'm off for 2 weeks from tommorrow) but I thought I'd see how it was going.

Like most interesting debates, it's never black and white. As DP quite rightly pointed out MRSA is as much to do with personal hygiene as it it with cleaning procedures.

The James Traynor article was certainly a bit melodramatic but he did at least acknowledge that personal hygiene plays a significant role in all this.

However, his comment 'Of course, that was before cleaning contracts were handed to private companies who refuse to pay decent money to their workers who, in turn, just want in and out as quickly as possible' is a bit unfair.

I doubt there is a single health authority in the country who opted out of in-house cleaning to contract cleaners because they wanted to increase standards rather than save money!

And thats the bottom line isn't it - money!

Fox, you said 'Hardly anyone I know in this business skimp on their investment in equipment - yes have come across plenty that are tight on chemicals (as these usually come within the price of the contract arrangement)' You may be the exception here, but do you how many single galvanised or plastic mop buckets are still sold each month in relation to double bucket kentucky or flat mopping systems? The vast majority of cleaners are just moving dirt from one area to another! Fact!

You also mentioned about training. Most cleaners are given a handful of materials and told to get on with it. Yes, again there are exceptions, but very few have had any training whatsoever.

'cleaners are paid well nowdays - infact better than ever before.' Perhaps it's marginally better with the minimum wage but are they really 'paid well'?

It is an interesting debate and I agree Fox - you get what you pay for! Now that there's some money going to hospital hygiene pehaps they'll buy better equipment, pay better rates and raise standards!

Although, I doubt James Traynor will get much publicity from a headline that reads 'UK Hospitals have never been so clean'  

Will try and catch up with you all shortly

Regards

Mike

[Ian Gourlay]

Fox.

I hold your views in great respect and read all your posts with interest

My first post was spoken from the heart. Reactionary.

I also worded it that way to provoke a debate.

However I am man enough to conside I know nothing about the problems of cleaning hospitals which is why I backed down.

However my PS comments are what customers have told me about conditions they found at our local hospital.

If I am wrong and it is all hear say and gosip I am pleased.  As I am having an operation soon.

[Fox]

Hi Mike

Have a good holiday and don't forget to bring us back a stick of rock!  

I still disagree about equipment - as with any business and any sort of equipment these items become an asset to the company I'm certainly not just talking mop buckets!  As for materials I did state scrimping on chemicals was common as this is usually part of the contract arrangement and this includes disposables such as cloths etc, it is seen as dead money even though they are essential for the hygiene of the building being cleaned.  I have seen plenty of cleaners 'move dirt from one area to another' this is normally through laziness, not looking after the equipment or changing water often enough.  You can train as much as you like but motivation is a different story!  

Bringing me to training, perhaps there are companies out there who may give someone a handful of materials and tell them to get on with it but what do you class as training?  Do you think a cleaner should have a NVQ or at least trained in the basics by some one with a D32/33?  This is unrealistic - training comes in many guises and in my time I have had hundreds of staff come and go, many who worked for other companies and I must say most of them knew at least the basics (how to use equipment, H&S, COSHH, some had even had some sort of training in visual cleaning - the method I like to use!).  So I am drawing conclusions on my own experiences.  I am by no means naive though and do understand that alot of the time managers are trying to get 'bodies on site' regardless of capabilities.

I certainly think this is an interesting debate and yes personal hygiene also has a big part to play when trying to combat 'superbugs'.  

So let the debate go on and perhaps we will all learn something.

Fox

[a55essor]

hello all
About training for cleaners, there is nvq  training avalable for cleaners, I'm one of those A1-A2(D32/D33), the training is carried out by the local collages I also run a cleaning company.on a last point I think all cleaners should be trained to at least NVQ 1 . Any views.
KEV

[Fox]

My daughter got taken into hospital early hours of Sat morning therefore as you can imagine I have spent a hell of alot of the last 24hrs there.

What did I see?  Well as you enter any ward there is an antibacterial soap on the wall with a clear notice asking anyone entering or exiting the ward to use it, haven't seen anyone do so yet!  Having said that I have observed the nurses constantley washing their hands after each task which obviously pleased me enourmously.

A cleaner seems to be present every couple of hours mopping the floors and doing the basics and the equipment is clean and well maintained.

As with all hospitals bed hopping is rife and the person opposite was moved twice, each time the staff nurse washed down the bed thoroughly (matteress, pillows, frame - even removed the matteress and done underneath and the table and surrounding areas) using disposable cloths.

Overall I am very happy with what I have seen, obviously it is not going to combat bugs completely but the effort and awareness is there.  Not saying this happens in all hospitals, this is my observation on this occassion, just thought I would share it.

Fox

[Len Gribble]

Fox hope your daughter is well.

I was in the same predicament as you last Monday but with wife, I’m also very observant but I never saw a sign asking/insisting anyone entering, exiting the ward to wash there hands, but did observe hospital nursing staff doing it and three sizes of surgical gloves, but I never saw the consultant/doctor doing it, then I didn’t.

Regarding basic cleaning in hospitals I don’t know what the cleaning schedule is, but I would be very surprised if equipment is cleaned by the general cleaners, I’ve only noticed spray buffing no vac and catch moping both in different areas not following behind and both with out any uniform on!

With regards to training a defiant yes but the problem stems from the uneducated customer but you’re only a cleaner not a professional and you cost money, but don’t you get P***** O**** if they don’t empty your bin, reply didn’t  have time as was cleaning up after your party.

Len

[phil_020]

An interesting topic

I've done window cleaning in hospitols and was scared myself at the level of access I had, without being challenged.  Also I went into some rooms a ward that I was only told afterwards I should not clean as they containied patients with airborne contagents and only specific people were allowed in with face mask's, etc..

This was about 3 years ago but I thought the general cleaning standards were pretty low, none of the cleaners I tried to speak to could talk English properly (impacts on training etc..) and they didn't look as though they knew what they were doing.

Also no-one checked our work and I never noticed anyone checking theirs.

[Terry_Burrows]

I have been asked to attend Scot Youngs talks etc,
on behalf of the National Federation of Master Window Cleaners, I am reading his book,I never knew he started off the window contests all those years ago
I am looking forward to next thursday at the hotel in the Docklands I am sure it will be very Interesting,

[patrickfarrington]

Mike - Terry - anybody

I was not able to attend the debate at the docklands on the 29th - has anybody got any feedback on the meeting on how it went and how Scot Young is going to save the world of cleaning ( little joke - no, no not Scot my little joke ) any info would be appreciated.

regards.

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi Patrick

Sorry, but I wasn't able to make it myself either. I would have gone down if I could so I'm interested to hear from anyone that did get there.

Regards

Mike