[Richy L]

I have just put in a stone patio at my house and I want some pointing that will survive pressure washing.
I know the old fashioned way(sand cement) is good. But someone has suggested geofix. It is supposed to be better than sand and cement and you can pressure wash it.

Has anyone used this before?

Basically, I want to pressure wash my patio every year and I want the pointing to stay in for as long as possible. Is this stuff any good?

[Griffus]

Have used Cementone between my own flags, which is pretty much the same stuff. This was recommended by a builder friend who swears by it. I guess that he only gets to see it in the early stages after application.

Overall it's OK in as much as it's quick and easy to work with.

Less than a year on though there are already a few cracks showing, loose bits here and there and there's no way that it will stay intact during pressure washing.

The problem when compared to sand / cement is the cost as just to fill in a few bits that get blown out you'll have to open a new bag, most of which will get thrown away.

Next time I'll go for the old fashioned method. Save a few bob.

[Cliff Horne]

Go to Paving Expert webbsite http://www.pavingexpert.com/ then to there forum "the Brew Cabin" These guys know what there doing, I doubt you'll get any good comments about Geofix, stick to traditional methods

[Kev Martin]

You seem to be creating a problem before  the patio is laid.  Any grouting that is laid other than sand and cement needs to be flexible however, using other products brings its own problems in that it may  soak  in from the sides and cause picture framing.

My suggestion is to lay the patio then grout up using a mixture of sand and cement mixed to an apple crumble type mixture with sharp sand and then swept into the joints.  Then draw a hose across the joints to give a smooth finish and draw the water to the surface then seal twice with a water based sealer.  Then once a year  gently scrub the patio with a rotary scrubber and some pH Neutral cleaner and rinse with a hose and forget the pressure washer.

Kev Martin
Marble Life ltd

[Roger Oakley]

Richy
As far as Geofix is concerned you might as well throw tenners down the street, complete crap.
Checkout Paving Expert for advice to pointing.

Kevin,
Not everyone on here that does pressure washing is going to have a rotary scrubber, so most and me included not an option. If pressure washed properly then you shouldn't damage any pointing as long as it is sound to start with.

[Kev Martin]

Roger
I appreciate that but a Rotary Scrubbed can be purchased 2nd hand from around £200 and in a lot of cases can be a lot quicker than pressure wAging and a lot less mess

Kevin

[mike roberts]

I assume this is an 'air' curing  mix have come across loads laid by 'landscapers' waste of time money - used as a quick easy fix.
Cant beat wet mix (using mixer) dry mix simply brushed in partially works and draws moisture from cement bed (must be freshly laid)  but you run the risk of staining flags plus the mix is un even.

If you have it pointed correctly should be able to wash with no problems.

Kevin - Why on earth would a pressure washing company scrub his own patio    
Curious how do you clean the corners steps etc with a 2nd hand £200 m/c.

[Kev Martin]

I assume this is an 'air' curing  mix have come across loads laid by 'landscapers' waste of time money - used as a quick easy fix.
Cant beat wet mix (using mixer) dry mix simply brushed in partially works and draws moisture from cement bed (must be freshly laid)  but you run the risk of staining flags plus the mix is un even.

If you have it pointed correctly should be able to wash with no problems.

Kevin - Why on earth would a pressure washing company scrub his own patio    
Curious how do you clean the corners steps etc with a 2nd hand £200 m/c.

Mike

It was a suggestion!  I have laid the odd M2 or two of patio flags, sandstone and slate using the slightly dry mix method.  There is no chance of staining or uneven appearance if its mixed and done properly.  In addition there is no risk of residue left on the surface either.

Kev Martin
Marble Life

[Roger Oakley]

Roger
I appreciate that but a Rotary Scrubbed can be purchased 2nd hand from around £200 and in a lot of cases can be a lot quicker than pressure wAging and a lot less mess

Kevin

Valid point Kevin, personally I think going on one of your course's first would be important before using the scrubber, so as to know what you are doing etc.
I would think without the right knowledge you could make a mess of someone's paving, does that sound correct? Bit like some of the decking we see, I've seen more messed up decking after the cowboys & power merchants have been at them, then I care to remember.

[Kev Martin]

Roger
I would have thought an amateur would make more damage with a pressure washer but I take your point as well regarding a Rotary scrubber.

Kev

[Roger Oakley]

Roger
I would have thought an amateur would make more damage with a pressure washer but I take your point as well regarding a Rotary scrubber.

Kev

Kevin,
No way was it criticism to using a rotary scrubber, and I have seen some so called pro's make a mess of pressure washing. What I am saying is that with how you do things and how I do things, knowledge, experience, and learning how to do things properly is the only way.
BTW we are taking OP's topic off thread sorry.

[Kenny83]

is the VDW 840 + is absolubtely fantastic, very easy to lay, sets harder than any sand/cement... it's a single pack epoxy, paving expert recommends it, you can get it from NCC streetscape in chorley, i have used the 2 pack version on a driveway, was great, the wetter the better so did it straight after a clean... it's expensive (about £80 per drum, covers about 25 M2 of 3x2 flags) but the best by far, ive used pavefix aswell and that was crap compared to this stuff. I was so impressed how easy it was to lay and yet solid that I now offer it as one of my services, you can't go wrong with it.. 

[mike roberts]

is the VDW 840 + is absolubtely fantastic, very easy to lay, sets harder than any sand/cement... it's a single pack epoxy, paving expert recommends it, you can get it from NCC streetscape in chorley, i have used the 2 pack version on a driveway, was great, the wetter the better so did it straight after a clean... it's expensive (about £80 per drum, covers about 25 M2 of 3x2 flags) but the best by far, ive used pavefix aswell and that was crap compared to this stuff. I was so impressed how easy it was to lay and yet solid that I now offer it as one of my services, you can't go wrong with it.. 

Lee that looks really impressive stuff just read about it on Paving expert, great that it can be layed wet seems to be preferred method. We will offer it as an alternative to wet mix when the job demands total re point. Weather at mo nightmare have atleast 5 seals waiting + 3 re sands, managed to sand seal 2 local jobs yesterday. Today we were due to be sealing but the weather has turned again nightmare.

Kevin, I have seen a dry mix (mixed in a Mixer) and used to repoint set tegulars stain the stones mainly due to the texture of the stone warned contractor it could 'trap', we were due to seal area, he carried on regardless we had to then re wash stone and repoint using slurry mix wait for it to dry again before sealing! We were originally going to brush in kiln dry and set using seal.
We have two rotary scubbers which we use for hard floors, we have in the past used them as a trial in cleaning patios with mixed results used high alkaline I think it was Power clean (prochem) with stiff poly brush, the main problem were the corners! If you have a solution i would be interested have seen numerous small battery scrubbers ... as this is method which we can use as a water saving... ish   Luv ya lots Mike 

Roger, if you havent used a scubber before  it doesn't take long to get the nack, after you have taken a few legs out .... Initially, dont try it in a confined area  - Have to agree with Kevin if you are sensible using suitable chem brush cant go far wrong -famous last words!

[Kenny83]

is the VDW 840 + is absolubtely fantastic, very easy to lay, sets harder than any sand/cement... it's a single pack epoxy, paving expert recommends it, you can get it from NCC streetscape in chorley, i have used the 2 pack version on a driveway, was great, the wetter the better so did it straight after a clean... it's expensive (about £80 per drum, covers about 25 M2 of 3x2 flags) but the best by far, ive used pavefix aswell and that was crap compared to this stuff. I was so impressed how easy it was to lay and yet solid that I now offer it as one of my services, you can't go wrong with it.. 

Lee that looks really impressive stuff just read about it on Paving expert, great that it can be layed wet seems to be preferred method. We will offer it as an alternative to wet mix when the job demands total re point. Weather at mo nightmare have atleast 5 seals waiting + 3 re sands, managed to sand seal 2 local jobs yesterday. Today we were due to be sealing but the weather has turned again nightmare.

Kevin, I have seen a dry mix (mixed in a Mixer) and used to repoint set tegulars stain the stones mainly due to the texture of the stone warned contractor it could 'trap', we were due to seal area, he carried on regardless we had to then re wash stone and repoint using slurry mix wait for it to dry again before sealing! We were originally going to brush in kiln dry and set using seal.
We have two rotary scubbers which we use for hard floors, we have in the past used them as a trial in cleaning patios with mixed results used high alkaline I think it was Power clean (prochem) with stiff poly brush, the main problem were the corners! If you have a solution i would be interested have seen numerous small battery scrubbers ... as this is method which we can use as a water saving... ish   Luv ya lots Mike 

Roger, if you havent used a scubber before  it doesn't take long to get the nack, after you have taken a few legs out .... Initially, dont try it in a confined area  - Have to agree with Kevin if you are sensible using suitable chem brush cant go far wrong -famous last words!

Its great stuff mate, the VDW 840+ for patios, etc, but if your doing a driveway tyou will need the VDW800, its 2 pack and harder wearing, again if you want a commercial application then there is something even stronger, can't remember what number that one is though,  i think there is another coming out soon called steinfix, tony will be doing a case study on it soon mate. weather is so unpredictable at the minute, im putting off jobs to be honest, no point cleaning them if i can only seal it 3 weeks down the line, returned to one yesterday and it had grass growing out of it, i only cleaned it 3 week ago! lol

[Roger Oakley]

is the VDW 840 + is absolubtely fantastic, very easy to lay, sets harder than any sand/cement... it's a single pack epoxy, paving expert recommends it, you can get it from NCC streetscape in chorley, i have used the 2 pack version on a driveway, was great, the wetter the better so did it straight after a clean... it's expensive (about £80 per drum, covers about 25 M2 of 3x2 flags) but the best by far, ive used pavefix aswell and that was crap compared to this stuff. I was so impressed how easy it was to lay and yet solid that I now offer it as one of my services, you can't go wrong with it.. 

Roger, if you havent used a scubber before  it doesn't take long to get the nack, after you have taken a few legs out .... Initially, dont try it in a confined area  - Have to agree with Kevin if you are sensible using suitable chem brush cant go far wrong -famous last words!

Mike,
No never used a rotary scrubber before, understand how they work though.
But if we were to offer the use of them, then would want to know the best methods, IE maybe go on a floor cleaning course first, as I for one wouldn't go "I'll offer this service as an add-on" and don't have an idea of what I am doing, there are enough of those cowboys out there already, if you get me drift.

[BDCS]

I have a slow rotary that I use primarily for lp carpet cleaning but I also use it for agitating degreaser on unit floors and even abrading polyurethane sealer prior to resealing - before I started swerving sealing. Maybe I should look at buying a new brush but would find a rotary a little tame for paving. I might get it out and do my own patio when I get spare time 

[Griffus]

I use stiff blue poly brushes on a couple of my rotary's on safety flooring etc. I have used outside, but only when scrubbing OT8 to large scale oil staining.

I can't imagine any real benefits, certainly I would think time wise it would take a lot longer. You couldn't work in the rain, you'd need a genny, a wet pick up, somewhere safe to dispose of the chemical crud, you'ld be uping your costs due to the chem's and the additional time. If using high ph you'd also have to neutralise thus doubling the area to be covered.

In theory it could work but in practice I'm not sure it would be a better option than pressure washing, especially on sun-baked surfaces.

Maybe a viable option on softer types of stone such as limestone, and due to using a wet vac as you go along there would be less ongoing mess, aside from that, as I say, I can't see the benefit.

[Kev Martin]

is the VDW 840 + is absolubtely fantastic, very easy to lay, sets harder than any sand/cement... it's a single pack epoxy, paving expert recommends it, you can get it from NCC streetscape in chorley, i have used the 2 pack version on a driveway, was great, the wetter the better so did it straight after a clean... it's expensive (about £80 per drum, covers about 25 M2 of 3x2 flags) but the best by far, ive used pavefix aswell and that was crap compared to this stuff. I was so impressed how easy it was to lay and yet solid that I now offer it as one of my services, you can't go wrong with it.. 

Lee that looks really impressive stuff just read about it on Paving expert, great that it can be layed wet seems to be preferred method. We will offer it as an alternative to wet mix when the job demands total re point. Weather at mo nightmare have atleast 5 seals waiting + 3 re sands, managed to sand seal 2 local jobs yesterday. Today we were due to be sealing but the weather has turned again nightmare.

Kevin, I have seen a dry mix (mixed in a Mixer) and used to repoint set tegulars stain the stones mainly due to the texture of the stone warned contractor it could 'trap', we were due to seal area, he carried on regardless we had to then re wash stone and repoint using slurry mix wait for it to dry again before sealing! We were originally going to brush in kiln dry and set using seal.
We have two rotary scubbers which we use for hard floors, we have in the past used them as a trial in cleaning patios with mixed results used high alkaline I think it was Power clean (prochem) with stiff poly brush, the main problem were the corners! If you have a solution i would be interested have seen numerous small battery scrubbers ... as this is method which we can use as a water saving... ish   Luv ya lots Mike 

Roger, if you havent used a scubber before  it doesn't take long to get the nack, after you have taken a few legs out .... Initially, dont try it in a confined area  - Have to agree with Kevin if you are sensible using suitable chem brush cant go far wrong -famous last words!

Its great stuff mate, the VDW 840+ for patios, etc, but if your doing a driveway tyou will need the VDW800, its 2 pack and harder wearing, again if you want a commercial application then there is something even stronger, can't remember what number that one is though,  i think there is another coming out soon called steinfix, tony will be doing a case study on it soon mate. weather is so unpredictable at the minute, im putting off jobs to be honest, no point cleaning them if i can only seal it 3 weeks down the line, returned to one yesterday and it had grass growing out of it, i only cleaned it 3 week ago! lol

I realise a lot of you think I am a always cautious but my question from a stone restoration specialist point of view has to be "Do they have any long term results for this stuff"?  The long and the short of it is that with epoxy based product we are changing things namely "Mother Nature"  Previously we had a stone and grout joint that could breathe now we have only a stone that can breathe?  Lot's of you are saying boring but where does the Efflorescence go if it occurs?  Many epoxy based products have had discoloration problems due to UV light!  Does this one?  Are there any longevity tests on this product?

Kev

[Kenny83]

Hi kev, the UV side of things is ok because the colours of the grout are dark and buff, Uv tends colour clear resins a yellowish / straw colour which on buff or dark coloured aggregate wouldn't matter as you wouldn't be able to see, although i do think there is a white coloured one availible but not sure about that one, also on the breathable side of things the grout is permeable so that it can breath and also let water in... which is better for drainage aswell mate.

[Kev Martin]

Hi kev, the UV side of things is ok because the colours of the grout are dark and buff, Uv tends colour clear resins a yellowish / straw colour which on buff or dark coloured aggregate wouldn't matter as you wouldn't be able to see, although i do think there is a white coloured one availible but not sure about that one, also on the breathable side of things the grout is permeable so that it can breath and also let water in... which is better for drainage aswell mate.

Kenny

So what your saying is that there is now an epoxy product that is (MVT) Breathable???  How the hell does that work???

Kev

[Kenny83]

no, i said that the epoxy grout is permeable, basically the gout is like resin bound aggregate, lots of tiny stones covered in resin, therefor lots of gaps between the stones to allow water to pass through... if you follow me? thefore the substrate will have no problem breathing.... I assume thats what you mean by breathable only by your reaction i think we may have crossed wires? the fact is mate is that it is a great product and very easy to install also it is used on a commercial basis by local authorities and contractors which is a good enough reference / reason for me to use it... its basically geofix but alot better uses water to be applied... no need to wait for a dry day etc... it's a great and in my opinion better alternative to geofix or anythin else i have come across, even traditional sand/cement as the tensile strength is alot greater

have a look at the case studies mate - http://www.nccstreetscape.co.uk/casestudies.html

[Roy Cauldery]

Hi all
sorry to hi-jack the post(i'm usually over on the window side).We have a pressure washing side of our business and this caught my eye as we usually sub out repointing.I would like to do it all in house and offer a one stop shop for our customers
What I'me asking really is, do you guys use the wet style application(from the link above) immediately post clean and if so what are your experiences? We are a hands on team and willing to try it if its worked for you.
If and pretty please, you are using it, I would also like to know if someone would be willing to have a bit of free labour for a day so I could join your team and watch/help you in action using it?   You must supply never ending tea though!!

TYIA

Roy
info@phoenixecs.co.uk

[paul parker]

I have used it for pavements and believe me it works really well. It works fine with
Natural Stone
Concrete
Slate
Clay
Terracotta
Granite .

[evil genius]

I run a small building and maintenance firm and in my opinion it's a very poor product especially for the premium you pay on it.
In the last 3 months we have reprinted over 250square meters of patios because of this badly produced product. Sand and cement in the correct ratio and additives
For the job everytime.
Ian