mark dew

  • Posts: 2901
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2007, 02:35:22 pm »
Out of interest, and this is a general question to all our readers, what is the most important reason to join any organisation? Is it the benefits you get, the aim of the organisation, what makes joining the most beneficial?
Just curious to see what you all think?

customer recognition is the most important thing to me.
There are alot of people who like myself are sitting on the fence. People who are behind you in theory but need that little push to embrace it totally.
I think the only way you will get the majority on board is through licensing.
Unlike scotland where councils supply the license, it would be better if the councils endorsed the license but were not involved in the running of it.

The apwc and the fed should lobby the government to back licensing but for them to stay out of running it because they will just use it as another tax.
If the feds ran and policed these licenses themselves, i think less people would have a moral objection to licensing and the money generated could be used to market the advantages of having a licensed wc to the general public.
The only way the feds would have the cash to run national advertising would be to have control of a licensing budget.

I wish the apwc well but trying to appeal to the better side of us wc is the wrong way to go. It is just another ongoing cost to us.
There is a part of me that is behind this in theory, but the realist tells me that if we go the way of scotland it will be a never ending cycle of higher charges with fewer benefits.
Remember, no-one votes for higher taxes??

DASERVICES

Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2007, 11:36:44 pm »
Trust me the AWPC could have a major on licensing  but they would have to have a lot of members to back this up. The SLWCN would willingly help you guys out on all the pitfalls we have encountered.

Dave,

Maybe you could offer people a two tier membership, one to take and help members to get licensing introduced and one for other benefits.

Prices have only risen by 2% in the last 10yrs, it's now time for a change. No organisation has changed this industry so instead of whinging put your money where it's worth and change this industry!!!

Sorry for the rant but this industry needs to go forward.


Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2007, 02:40:14 pm »
Totally agree this industry does need taking into the 21st century and with everyone's help and support we can do this.

Trouble is, so many people want it to happen but aren't prepared to back us and support us by becoming members.

To clean this industry up and help improve the perceived status of a window cleaner will take years, but without the support of people it will take decades!

Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

colley614

  • Posts: 1557
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2007, 05:25:46 pm »

Well said Trevor. I think that we do need to start tidying up the image of window cleaners. I mean lock smiths and plumbers nowadays have a ball park figure of £100 before they start in some places yet in my town some people expect an hours work out of a window cleaner for £2-£3  :'(

I really go out my way to impress and look professional and then I get some clown doing the house next door for half the price and it usually takes them twice as long to get finished. I really can't stand trying to compete with these idiots because if I'm in the premiership of window cleaning these guys are none leaguers with ripped t-shirts on and even cans of Tennants super tucked into their bum bag. I've even seen one smoking a druggie rollie before on someones front doorstep.

I really go out my way to look like the type of person I would like to clean my windows. I really work hard and even say to the customers if you get a problem with your windows phone me and I'll come on my way home. If there was a way to get rid of these people I'm all for it. It never used to bother me competing these people until 2 weeks before christmas I had a nice little boxed together round that cost me £100 in leaflets to get together and 2 weeks before christmas I got it pinched off me by a guy who I see now painting the fronts of houses. He still does the work that I lost to him but losing it nearly but me out of business. As I had just set up and starting bringing some money home again I paid all the bills and was going to use the last 2 weeks before christmas's wages to buy my childrens presents but then had 4/5 of my round knicked and ended up with nothing.

I'M ALL FOR GETTING RID OF THE IDIOTS IN OUR INDUSTRY! 

Paul Coleman

Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2007, 09:15:34 pm »
Totally agree this industry does need taking into the 21st century and with everyone's help and support we can do this.

Trouble is, so many people want it to happen but aren't prepared to back us and support us by becoming members.

To clean this industry up and help improve the perceived status of a window cleaner will take years, but without the support of people it will take decades!



I am ambivalent about this issue myself.  I am not against licensing per se.  I am against the comedians in the town halls using it as a stealth tax and a stick with which yet another part of the populace can be controlled.  I stated my reasons on earlier threads and stand by them.  IMO this needs to be thought through a lot more carefully than some would have us believe.  No problem with cleaning up the industry but it needs to be done without shooting oneself in the foot.

colley614

  • Posts: 1557
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2007, 09:18:22 pm »
And as above plus it would be a massive undertaking to get the no gooders out without seriously restricting the professional guys out there.

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2007, 07:17:27 am »
Totally agree this industry does need taking into the 21st century and with everyone's help and support we can do this.

Trouble is, so many people want it to happen but aren't prepared to back us and support us by becoming members.

To clean this industry up and help improve the perceived status of a window cleaner will take years, but without the support of people it will take decades!



I am ambivalent about this issue myself.  I am not against licensing per se.  I am against the comedians in the town halls using it as a stealth tax and a stick with which yet another part of the populace can be controlled.  I stated my reasons on earlier threads and stand by them.  IMO this needs to be thought through a lot more carefully than some would have us believe.  No problem with cleaning up the industry but it needs to be done without shooting oneself in the foot.

Yes this is very true, it really has to be thought out as these guy's will use it for their own vehicle to progress up that greasy pole of politices. However, sometimes, we have to embrace the opportunities that we have available and try to control the way forward. I have views on licencing and agree it is a very stringent and difficult task ahead, but it is achievable with the right approach.

I have spent 16 years in this wonderful industry, rest assured, one thing I wont advocate is shooting my own foot off!
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2007, 07:22:52 am »
And as above plus it would be a massive undertaking to get the no gooders out without seriously restricting the professional guys out there.

Do you think so????

I personally believe its all about education not policing. When was the last time if ever that a government official called at your home and checked your gas fitter was corgi registered, however, try making a claim following an accident having used a "jo blogg's" down the road, then you will be educated you SHOULD have used a Corgi Registered fitter.

The way forward is not about government intervention as such, more about government education highlighting the right and wrong way of employing a window cleaner and WHAT to look for as credentials or if in place a license.

If enough of us want it and are prepared to shout about it then it is a possibility and certainly something legitimate and professional companies such as ourselves may well benefit from.

Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2007, 10:43:39 am »
I remember a few years ago a window cleaner mate of mine who lives in edinborough said that cabbies were protesting in all of the main streets on the city.

What were they protesting about? Licensing.  The council had refused to issue any more licences to taxi drivers because some numpty behinnd a desk had decided that there was already too many taxi drivers around!

It meant that cabbies who had been working for years couldnt get their licenses renewed and new cabbies couldnt start even though there was more than enough work for them.  Could the same happen for window cleaners? YES!

I dont agree with licenses for window cleaners.  anything that means the idiot local councils are involved in our business has got to be a bad thing.  fight it all the way i say, it will just be a tax on the honest guys, the cowboys will still not pay it and nothing will get done.
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2007, 11:20:36 am »
I remember a few years ago a window cleaner mate of mine who lives in edinborough said that cabbies were protesting in all of the main streets on the city.

What were they protesting about? Licensing.  The council had refused to issue any more licences to taxi drivers because some numpty behinnd a desk had decided that there was already too many taxi drivers around!

It meant that cabbies who had been working for years couldnt get their licenses renewed and new cabbies couldnt start even though there was more than enough work for them.  Could the same happen for window cleaners? YES!

I dont agree with licenses for window cleaners.  anything that means the idiot local councils are involved in our business has got to be a bad thing.  fight it all the way i say, it will just be a tax on the honest guys, the cowboys will still not pay it and nothing will get done.

Again, and this goes back to my earlier point, not to get the councils to police it but to rubber stamp it along the same way as a corgi gas installer. There is no limitation to how many can do the corse but the fact that they have done it emphesises the council and governments backing.

You say the "cowboy's" won't do it and nothing will get done but wasn't that the same view before corgi registration, it's not getting the councils to apply the pressure it's getting the councils to educate the public who in turn will apply the pressure.

Think of this scenario, supposing it was widespread knowledge that window cleaners were to be registered/licensed with the parent county and that employing a "non licensed" window cleaner would invalidate any claim you may have as a result of their work it wouldn't be long before people started taking notice. The up side to this is that professional window cleaning companies would have no problem regestering and would embrace change and not resent it!

If it was a requirement to be registered with our local council I would be first in the queue as I can only feel this will encourage and increase the public perception of a window cleaner being a professional and not some guy doing this until he gets a real job!!!!
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #50 on: August 07, 2007, 12:03:28 pm »
Trevor, I see what you are saying but joe public is never going to view window cleaning in the same way as CORGI gas fittings.  If an unqualified bloke fools around with your gas fittings and your house could blow up, everyone knows that.  Or you could have paid a thousand quid for a boiler that doesnt work properly.

The worst that people think will happen with a rubbish window cleaner is that they wont clean the windows very well.  Big deal.  So they've wasted a tenner.  nobody is going to care about that in the same way as a thousand quid boiler.

As for the local council rubber stamping it, what use is that going to be?  Either it will be the law (and enforced by the coppers) or it wont be.  Somewhere down the line someone is going to have to make a decision about whether to grant a license to joe bloggs or not.  I don't feel comfortable about idiot local councils doing that, they always make a hash up of things, and this is our livleyhoods here.

If its not the councils that would make that decision then who?  The APWC?  No offense , i think you are doing what you think is best, but you certainly dont have the right to tell me if I'm fit to be a window cleaner or not.

Mike
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #51 on: August 07, 2007, 12:30:48 pm »
Firstly, we have never said we have the right to tell you if you are fit to be a window cleaner or not and never would!  Think you have the wrong end of the stick on this one??

As for people taking window cleaning seriously, well it's exactly as a result of "joe blogg's" that people don't take us seriously. If this image was removed from public view and a more professional image was presented then that would take this industry forward and enhance and certainly improve peoples perception regarding a window cleaner.

As for people not bothered about a £10 job, yes that's true, but there are certainly 1000's of householders who shall we say live in very nice homes that WOULD be interested in knowing more about their window cleaner. I have and I am sure many others have too, cleaned prestigious properties that have wanted references and copies of insurance etc...Think about how many customers you know that have had damage to their property and then never seen the window cleaner again? If we were licensed as such then proof of current insurance should be validated and the customer has somewhere to fall back to if the window cleaner did a bunk!

I did a house about 3 years ago when a un-insured window cleaner put his foot ontop of a glass roof conservatory, cracked the glass and was never to be seen again, that cost the customer £1200 to be replaced, was she happy!!!!!!

I also had an accident ourselves, one of my operatives was using a ladder, it slipped and slid down 3 6ft glass panels on the front of his house damaging all 3. Insurance paid out £458 and the customer was so happy he even recommended us to 3 of his friends, would he have done that if I did a runner?

The licensing should be rubber stamped by the council as in the public eye they have a certain status, I also think insurance companies should look at this in more depth!

This is never going to be an easy task and in reality will take a long time to come to fruition. Like I have said before, we can embrace change or we can resent it? I know what I will do?

Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

TennetClean

  • Posts: 497
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #52 on: August 07, 2007, 03:48:48 pm »
Trevor, I'm afraid I do not understand what you are saying.

Licensing as happens in scotland means that if you dont have one then its illegal for you to clean windows for money.

That means means someone at the local council looks at your applicaton form that you sent in and decides whether or not to give you a license.  No license no work  If you get caught window cleaning without one then you go to court, get fined/goto prison ect.  Its enforced by the cops.

If you/ the apwc support licensing, that is what it means.

Are you in favour of that or not?
My friends call me Tuppence Clean

Stevie G

  • Posts: 440
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #53 on: August 07, 2007, 03:53:26 pm »
Firstly, we have never said we have the right to tell you if you are fit to be a window cleaner or not and never would!  Think you have the wrong end of the stick on this one??

As for people taking window cleaning seriously, well it's exactly as a result of "joe blogg's" that people don't take us seriously. If this image was removed from public view and a more professional image was presented then that would take this industry forward and enhance and certainly improve peoples perception regarding a window cleaner.

As for people not bothered about a £10 job, yes that's true, but there are certainly 1000's of householders who shall we say live in very nice homes that WOULD be interested in knowing more about their window cleaner. I have and I am sure many others have too, cleaned prestigious properties that have wanted references and copies of insurance etc...Think about how many customers you know that have had damage to their property and then never seen the window cleaner again? If we were licensed as such then proof of current insurance should be validated and the customer has somewhere to fall back to if the window cleaner did a bunk!

I did a house about 3 years ago when a un-insured window cleaner put his foot ontop of a glass roof conservatory, cracked the glass and was never to be seen again, that cost the customer £1200 to be replaced, was she happy!!!!!!

I also had an accident ourselves, one of my operatives was using a ladder, it slipped and slid down 3 6ft glass panels on the front of his house damaging all 3. Insurance paid out £458 and the customer was so happy he even recommended us to 3 of his friends, would he have done that if I did a runner?

The licensing should be rubber stamped by the council as in the public eye they have a certain status, I also think insurance companies should look at this in more depth!

This is never going to be an easy task and in reality will take a long time to come to fruition. Like I have said before, we can embrace change or we can resent it? I know what I will do?
cant really argue with that. you could have also pointed out the poor sods who got ripped off by the bogus window cleaner/s. ill be joing soon if nothing else
it might help a bit towards licencing.



Stevie G

  • Posts: 440
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #54 on: August 07, 2007, 04:00:45 pm »
cant really argue with that. you could have also pointed out the poor sods who got ripped off by the bogus window cleaner/s. ill be joing soon if nothing else
it might help a bit towards licencing.

sorry cocked it up got my bins on know.

Captain Scarlet

  • Posts: 3087
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2007, 10:34:14 pm »
I want to join a fed, but I'm not too sure about licensing at the moment, it just means more competition from people that view this job as a proper career, or proper trade. Window cleaning is sort of an uderestimated industry, people think we are not on alot of money, but infact we earn alot, this stops other from starting up. Is this an advantage? on the other hand it may help us increase our prices ( although, I already charge alot, don't see people paying anymore than  I charge ). The real question is do we want to be seen as a profesional tradesmen, and to be honest it seems that that is already possible with a sign written van etc etc etc. And will it really stop a "rag on a stick" window cleaner, can't they just get a license too? Not sure on this one though, I will need to see more evidence from both sides. Luke
Ffenest ( est 2007 ) is a fully insured premium quality window cleaning service based at Llandderfel near Bala. All our work is guaranteed, rain or shine, year round.

colley614

  • Posts: 1557
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2007, 10:46:43 pm »
I think that if window cleaners were licensed then the Government would just use it as another form of tax. If they seen associations such as the APWC taking health earning off licenses or certificates then I think they would want their hands in that pie. I'd like to see licensing but think we would all be in association then trying to get rid of the very thing we all spent money on in the first place trying to set up. I mean look at company car tax, a few years ago it was a sort of bonus for an employee to have a company car but in the end it turned full circle a bit them on the backside. I wouldn't want to see that happen to us guys.

If it was to happen it would have to be done very sensibly. I think associations are a good thing for the professionals out there and they do enough at the moment to make a good guy look great and I'm worried we could engineer something that could be more of a punishment than a benefit. Licensing will have to very well thought about before its put to an MP thats for sure.

DASERVICES

Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2007, 10:49:32 pm »
Look at this way, proper licensed area ,shortage of window cleaners, costly to have windows cleaned. happy window cleaners  ;D ;D

Thats my findings so far where licensing is checked the window cleaners are earning a good rate £10 per house, where it is not they are struggling at £2.50 per house.

What you should be doing if licensed is introduced is pushing the Council to use that money to help window cleaners to understand the concept of running their window cleaning as a business.

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #58 on: August 08, 2007, 06:09:49 am »
And will it really stop a "rag on a stick" window cleaner, can't they just get a license too? Not sure on this one though, I will need to see more evidence from both sides. Luke

Hi Luke,

Part of the licencing proceedure should be verified insurance, perhaps company literature (business card etc..) maybe certified accounts or letter from an accountant to confirm they are a legit business. Accredations held by the company.

If you have all these then I would expect you to be a professional and certainly an asset to this industry promoting a professional image.
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Should I join the apwc?
« Reply #59 on: August 08, 2007, 06:15:25 am »
I think that if window cleaners were licensed then the Government would just use it as another form of tax. If they seen associations such as the APWC taking health earning off licenses or certificates then I think they would want their hands in that pie.


The APWC would not earn a penny from licencing. Although we would approach the relevant bodies if licencing was to be the way ahead, we would not offer to or want to run it. The APWC would be more involved in consultation process and making sure it was implemented sensibly and with all of our concerns covered. Remember, the APWC is a NON PROFIT making organisation which means we will never earn a penny from anything we do on behalf of our existing and future members!
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire