[lisa123]

Ok,
We had domestic cleaning prices, so now how about general office cleaning? day to day stuff,

also do you always have 2 cleaners minimum?
is it best to have 2 cleaners do 1 hour (2 woman hours)
or to have 1 cleaner to do the 2 woman hours on her own?

Do you supply your own equipment/chemicals/supplies etc, or does the client?

I would imagine if you supplied everything, this would bump up your price by a quid or 2 an hour?

[AJCleaningServices]

For general and regular cleaning jobs (domestic and/or commercial) we charge £9.00 per hour.  When our charge was £8-50 we had steady new work coming in.  Since we raised our charges to £9.00 we have had difficulties to get new customers…

Kind regards,
Arthur

[lisa123]

Hi arthur

do you supply cleaning materials for your office contracts?
and is your £9, per cleaner per hour?
thanks for replying

[AJCleaningServices]

Hello Lisa,

For general and regular cleaning jobs (domestic and/or commercial) we do not provide equipment and/or materials. 

£9.00 is per hour, per person.
 
Kind regards,
Arthur

[lisa123]

same as me then 
i think i'd charge more like £12 per hour per cleaner for supplying everything inc loo rolls and paper towels, soaps dispensers etc.
I would pobably expect to be knocked down in price aswell around here. 

I charge £10 for domestic after the trial period as we supply chemicals and materials, but the client provides hoovers and mops.

[CMS]

same as me then 
i think i'd charge more like £12 per hour per cleaner for supplying everything inc loo rolls and paper towels, soaps dispensers etc.
I would pobably expect to be knocked down in price aswell around here. 

I charge £10 for domestic after the trial period as we supply chemicals and materials, but the client provides hoovers and mops.

Lisa

How can you estimate the usage for toilet rolls? There is a way but do you know it?

It is VERY unusual to use the Clients equipment in commercial cleaning and it will not mean a huge reduction if you do as you should only cost in the 'depreciation' of the equipment.

As I have said before, I keep the wage content at 57% of the charge. If I was paying £5.70 an hour I would be charging £10.00. Anyone charging £8.50 - £9.00 per hour for commercial cleaning is on a very slippery slope.

[Clean 'n' Tidy]

Hi Lisa,

I am currently putting together a quote for some office cleaning. This to me is a very new area. I have come up with a price of £13 per hour. Down in my area it is very hard to get much more than £10 per hour. I have just tpyed out the quote and will wait and see.

RGds
Kim

[BSF]

same as me then 
i think i'd charge more like £12 per hour per cleaner for supplying everything inc loo rolls and paper towels, soaps dispensers etc.
I would pobably expect to be knocked down in price aswell around here. 

I charge £10 for domestic after the trial period as we supply chemicals and materials, but the client provides hoovers and mops.

Never price with these included!

same as me then  
i think i'd charge more like £12 per hour per cleaner for supplying everything inc loo rolls and paper towels, soaps dispensers etc.
I would pobably expect to be knocked down in price aswell around here.  

I charge £10 for domestic after the trial period as we supply chemicals and materials, but the client provides hoovers and mops.

Lisa

How can you estimate the usage for toilet rolls? There is a way but do you know it?

It is VERY unusual to use the Clients equipment in commercial cleaning and it will not mean a huge reduction if you do as you should only cost in the 'depreciation' of the equipment.

As I have said before, I keep the wage content at 57% of the charge. If I was paying £5.70 an hour I would be charging £10.00. Anyone charging £8.50 - £9.00 per hour for commercial cleaning is on a very slippery slope.

It doesnt matter if theirs any formula for working out the usage of toilet rolls, hand towels & soap, it would never work, these are add on's to make more money.

If you were paying your staff £5.70 per hour on a contract of 100 hours per week, you wouldnt charge £10.00 per hour, because the customer wouldnt pay that much to a cleaning company, if it was a small contract then fair enough £10 - £20 per hour, but large contracts will not pay it.

Do you really think that if you quoted £1000 per week for 100hrs cleaning over 12 months, you would win the contract?

The bigger they are the cheaper they get it!
 
(anyone charging) £8.50  - £9.00 per hour for commercial cleaning, come on if you could win a contract of 200hrs per week and charge £8.50 per hour, I think you'd take it.

Believe me CMS you wouldnt be on a slippery slope.

Regards

Paul

[CMS]

Of course, I should have qualified it a bit more.

Wages at 57% is fine on a contract with a value of up to say £1500 a month. Over and above thatthe wage 'percentage' will get higher as you start to compete with the Nationals. When I had Ford Motor Company at Dagenham under my control in 1991 the wage bill was 82% but it didn't matter on a contract worth £4m a year.

I was talking about the type of work that Lisa was competing for.

And yes, if you were quoting £8-9 per hour on a contract worth under £1500 a month you would be struggling.

To depreciate the equipment on a contract priced like that you'd have to have it for 10 years!!

[CMS]

PS............................

A ten year study of 'people at work' has shown that the average person uses 1.9 metres of toilet paper per day in the work place!! 

I would prefer to leave them out and treat it as an additional sales opportunity but in some cases the Client insists - particularly if it forms part of the tender documents.

[AJCleaningServices]

So far, three people suggested that job priced not by the hour.  Could somebody explain how do you price the job then?
Kind regards,
Arthur 

[BSF]

As I said CMS: Never quote a job that includes Toilet rolls, hand towels, hand soap, you can throw average figures around all day, that means nothing... 1.9metres per day, thats shocking, I go before I go to work ...

Of course, I should have qualified it a bit more.

Wages at 57% is fine on a contract with a value of up to say £1500 a month. Over and above thatthe wage 'percentage' will get higher as you start to compete with the Nationals. When I had Ford Motor Company at Dagenham under my control in 1991 the wage bill was 82% but it didn't matter on a contract worth £4m a year.

I was talking about the type of work that Lisa was competing for.

And yes, if you were quoting £8-9 per hour on a contract worth under £1500 a month you would be struggling.

To depreciate the equipment on a contract priced like that you'd have to have it for 10 years!!

I cant recall Lisa mentioning the size of the contract

An £18,000pa contract, 38hrs per week, I'd take it on for £9.00 per hour.

I thought the site you mentioned employed their own cleaners, what company did you work for? £4million for cleaning per year, at £5.00 per hour thats 15,384 hrs per week,,,, thats some hours CMS  : did the cleaners build the cars aswell?

[AJCleaningServices]

As I said CMS: Never quote a job that includes Toilet rolls, hand towels, hand soap, you can throw average figures around all day, that means nothing... 1.9metres per day, thats shocking, I go before I go to work ...

Where we work people use lots of toilet rolls as tissues, so you never know how many meters may by misused 

Kind regards,
Arthur

[BSF]

Exactly Arthur....

Thats my point, never include these items in a quote,, even if they ask

[AJCleaningServices]

Now four people have suggested that job priced not by the hour.  Could somebody explain how do you price the job then?
PLEASE
Kind regards,
Arthur 

[Tim Downer]

Arthur

I dont work out my tenders by the hour.....as all are different to each other.

I remember reading somewhere that each "account" is like a fingerprint.....when it comes to cleaning, no two "accounts" are alike.

So i try to do a thorough survey of the customers premises.....then, like every one else i determine the amount of labour that is needed to complete the job.

Once i have done that, i look at my notes and work out what cleaning materials, equipment etc that i would roughly use in a year.

Also included would be holiday pay, Uniforms, Insurance costs, Administration charges, Management fee (my wages - usually around 2 hours per week.....but would depend on the size of the contract and how long i will be there for the weekly visit), training....usually try to account for 15 hours per year per employee....and not forgetting a hanson profit ontop  :

After i have come to a grand total, i then double check my figures by determining the % of labour - i try to get to Karls suggested 57%.....but the two contracts i have done have varied between a 55% one and a 61% one.

The system i like to use above, was the same system i used quite comfortably when i ran my own cleaning business up till 3 years ago.....However, if i had time to do the maths, i may be surprised to find that the average cost per hour may well be similar for each contract......

It would be fun to find out the average price per square footage of a typical commercial enviroment to triple check the figures......but i like it complicated......and have a feeling that this was discussed around a year and a half ago.

Any one have a price on the average square foot for cleaning??

Regards

Tim

[Tim Downer]

There is an article i read some weeks ago on the internet, which included a formula for finding out the average usage per person of toilet rolls.....and even a formula for the liquid hand soap......

I will have to dig it out for tomorrow and let you know.....however, as has been stressed by pfwest, it would be better to not have these in your tender and sell them on an as and when basis.....can be a nice little earner.

If they haven't already got them, you could try and sell them dispensers for the soap, paper hand towels, mini jumbo rolls etc etc plus they will buy the consumables for them from you.

Regards

Tim

[AJCleaningServices]

Tnx Tim

[BSF]

Arthur

I dont work out my tenders by the hour.....as all are different to each other.

I remember reading somewhere that each "account" is like a fingerprint.....when it comes to cleaning, no two "accounts" are alike.

So i try to do a thorough survey of the customers premises.....then, like every one else i determine the amount of labour that is needed to complete the job.

Once i have done that, i look at my notes and work out what cleaning materials, equipment etc that i would roughly use in a year.

Also included would be holiday pay, Uniforms, Insurance costs, Administration charges, Management fee (my wages - usually around 2 hours per week.....but would depend on the size of the contract and how long i will be there for the weekly visit), training....usually try to account for 15 hours per year per employee....and not forgetting a hanson profit ontop  :

After i have come to a grand total, i then double check my figures by determining the % of labour - i try to get to Karls suggested 57%.....but the two contracts i have done have varied between a 55% one and a 61% one.

The system i like to use above, was the same system i used quite comfortably when i ran my own cleaning business up till 3 years ago.....However, if i had time to do the maths, i may be surprised to find that the average cost per hour may well be similar for each contract......

It would be fun to find out the average price per square footage of a typical commercial enviroment to triple check the figures......but i like it complicated......and have a feeling that this was discussed around a year and a half ago.

Any one have a price on the average square foot for cleaning??

Regards

Tim

Tim

You might not, but the customer does, if a customer asks you for a quote, they just divide the cost by the number of hours your quote states.

As I've said the bigger the customer the less they pay, thats life

[Tim Downer]

Why would the customer do that??

If after i have done a complete and thorough survey.....including asking the potential client what their budget is.....why would they work out what the stupid hourly rate is??

At the end of the day, if the price is right and the service offered is dam good they will take you on.

However, I do agree with you that the bigger the contract, then naturally.....if you want to go down the road of an hourly rate....it would be less per hour than one smaller.

Regards

Tim   

[BSF]

Tim,

If a company asks for a quote, of course they work out how much per hour it will cost them, the decision maker has to justify the cost.

Regards

Paul

[CMS]

As I said CMS: Never quote a job that includes Toilet rolls, hand towels, hand soap, you can throw average figures around all day, that means nothing... 1.9metres per day, thats shocking, I go before I go to work ...

Of course, I should have qualified it a bit more.

Wages at 57% is fine on a contract with a value of up to say £1500 a month. Over and above thatthe wage 'percentage' will get higher as you start to compete with the Nationals. When I had Ford Motor Company at Dagenham under my control in 1991 the wage bill was 82% but it didn't matter on a contract worth £4m a year.

I was talking about the type of work that Lisa was competing for.

And yes, if you were quoting £8-9 per hour on a contract worth under £1500 a month you would be struggling.

To depreciate the equipment on a contract priced like that you'd have to have it for 10 years!!

I cant recall Lisa mentioning the size of the contract

An £18,000pa contract, 38hrs per week, I'd take it on for £9.00 per hour.

I thought the site you mentioned employed their own cleaners, what company did you work for? £4million for cleaning per year, at £5.00 per hour thats 15,384 hrs per week,,,, thats some hours CMS  : did the cleaners build the cars aswell?

Sorry I didn't get back to this last night.....................got involved with something else.

I'll try and answer each of your points in turn so forgive me if I appear to be jumping from subject to subject.

You say NEVER quote to provide consumable items. I agree with you, it's always best not to BUT in some cases it can't be avoided. On the larger contracts that involve filling in tender documents it's often necessary. If you don't do it you're out of the frame. As Tim said (and I said earlier) there are formulas for working this out but I avoid it wherever possible.

Lisa DID discuss the size of the contract on another topic. She was asking whether 1 cleaner for two hours is better than two cleaners for one hour.

An £18,000 contract at £9.00 per hour is something that I'd refuse. If you paid 'minimum wage' i.e. £5.05 per hour your wages would be 57% BUT you haven't added anything on for holiday pay, ENI yet. Your TRUE wages would be nearer 62%. Then you've got your materials (4%), that brings your costs up to 66%.

Now then - equipment. You'd probably have to depreciate it at another 2% a month and we're up to 68% - DIRECT COSTS!

Indirect costs...............management, supervision, training, H & S, admin, fuel...................and the list goes on. All out of your remaining 32%. It doesn't leave a lot does it?

Now then, the Ford site at Dagenham didn't employ their own cleaners. I worked for NES Limited at the time (who have now had a name change). As you may or not know Ford is/was a huge site comprising Engine factory, Assembly works, Paint shop and many many additional sites and exterior areas.

The cost of the contract was £4m per annum but of course it wasn't all cleaning hours (I thought you'd be sensible enough to realise that without me having to spell it out). The cleaning hours were only a small part of it. The other part of the contract was for :

Process equipment cleaning (roll test booths, conveyor pits, paint ovens etc.)
Waste management (compactors, balers, tow trucks, skips etc.)
Janitorial Supplies (YES! indeed........toilet rolls, soaps, industrial wipes).
Exterior cleaning.
Grounds maintenance.

The wage content for the cleaning hours was at 82%.

Finally, it's very easy to make assumptions about a posters experience on forums like this. Without enough information on their profile it's hard to judge whether they actually know what you are talking about.

I assumed you were actually more experienced than it seems you actually are and I apologise for making that assumption. When you are next involved with the topic I'll try and explain myself better.

[CMS]

Arthur

I dont work out my tenders by the hour.....as all are different to each other.

I remember reading somewhere that each "account" is like a fingerprint.....when it comes to cleaning, no two "accounts" are alike.

So i try to do a thorough survey of the customers premises.....then, like every one else i determine the amount of labour that is needed to complete the job.

Once i have done that, i look at my notes and work out what cleaning materials, equipment etc that i would roughly use in a year.

Also included would be holiday pay, Uniforms, Insurance costs, Administration charges, Management fee (my wages - usually around 2 hours per week.....but would depend on the size of the contract and how long i will be there for the weekly visit), training....usually try to account for 15 hours per year per employee....and not forgetting a hanson profit ontop  :

After i have come to a grand total, i then double check my figures by determining the % of labour - i try to get to Karls suggested 57%.....but the two contracts i have done have varied between a 55% one and a 61% one.

The system i like to use above, was the same system i used quite comfortably when i ran my own cleaning business up till 3 years ago.....However, if i had time to do the maths, i may be surprised to find that the average cost per hour may well be similar for each contract......

It would be fun to find out the average price per square footage of a typical commercial enviroment to triple check the figures......but i like it complicated......and have a feeling that this was discussed around a year and a half ago.

Any one have a price on the average square foot for cleaning??

Regards

Tim

Tim

You might not, but the customer does, if a customer asks you for a quote, they just divide the cost by the number of hours your quote states.

As I've said the bigger the customer the less they pay, thats life

That is of course assuming that you have stated the hours.

Stating the hours that will be worked should be avoided at all costs (just like costing in consumables). I agree that on the bigger sites where tender docs are filled in it can't be avoided but there's no reason to state it on a smaller contract.

[shelton]

 

This is another one of those "medals on the table" moments isn't it . ..  I can just see it coming like a horrible, horrible car crash . ..   :

All hail . ..

[CMS]

/

[lisa123]

oh dear what have i started?!  
I have put my quote in for this small job, its only worth around £65 per week, as it is so small. Thats what i quoted anyway. Not sure what they paid the old cleaners.
They haven't phoned me back yet, so will just have to wait and see.
It's only a tri-weekly clean, 2 cleaners 1 hour per night. I seem to be getting asked to quote for a quite a few of these small ones.
I think my price is quite reasonable considering wages, and supplies etc.
I have had 2 domestic customers say no this week as they hired a cleaner, who prob just wanted £5er an hour, instead of  a proper business. £9 per hour i quoted them aswell. I can't win sometimes.

[garyj]

Don't think it was you (this time  ).

I'm still trying to work out the Shelton reply. Thats more cryptic than the Times crossword.

He'll have to do a 'Sun' version for us thickies.

[Fox]

Translation - My shed is better than yours!

I think what Shelton is trying to say is that CMS is possibly saying the above to anyone who questions his experience / integrity.   

Shelton - correct me if I am wrong.

Fox

[CMS]

Shed? Medals?

It's getting harder to communicate on here 

[D woods]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it more entertaining when everyone starts bickering?

[shelton]

 

[garyj]

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it more entertaining when everyone starts bickering?

    YES.

Lynn at Gower has even started bickering with herself on carpet cleaning.
Got her knickers in a right old twist she has.

I really do laugh out loud when I'm on here. Some people have no idea whatsoever.

[CMS]

I really do laugh out loud when I'm on here. Some people have no idea whatsoever.

Too right!

[BSF]

Hi CMS,

Employers national insurance contributions, I avoid these where ever possible, don’t you? most of my staff only work 10hrs per week so I don’t pay it, I pay my staff the minimum 20days holiday pay per year including bank holidays, if you quoted a job for 38hrs per week at more than £18,000 pa you wouldn’t get it, I would pay £5.57 per hour and still make a good profit.

Why does your cost calculator add employer Nics? To be brutally honest with you, the cost calculator is a joke!!!   I know that on small contracts you can get away with charging per visit, but come on CMS any contract of a reasonable size,, yes £18,000 pa for 38hrs weekly, without consumables, of course the customer wants to know how many hours are being supplied.

Just because I choose not to advertise my company on this forum, doesn’t justify you making assumptions about me or my company, after all it is you that chooses to show all and sundry information about your limited company on this forum, and by this I can make my own mind up about you and your company from it, so can other members.

I still think £76,900 per week for cleaning at the site you mentioned is a bit of an exaggeration, but hey CMS  I’m not as experienced as you, so I could be wrong.

Regards

Paul 

 

[CMS]

Why does your cost calculator add employer Nics?

...................because every contract should be able to 'stand alone' in its own right. Granted, if it was the only job someone did and they earned less than £82 a week NI wouldn't be paid.

What if for some reason that job had to be done (holiday cover maybe) by a 'full timer'? everything has to be costed in in my book.

but come on CMS any contract of a reasonable size,, yes £18,000 pa for 38hrs weekly, without consumables, of course the customer wants to know how many hours are being supplied.

............that's what I said - here...................

That is of course assuming that you have stated the hours.

Stating the hours that will be worked should be avoided at all costs (just like costing in consumables). I agree that on the bigger sites where tender docs are filled in it can't be avoided but there's no reason to state it on a smaller contract.

Just because I choose not to advertise my company on this forum, doesn’t justify you making assumptions about me or my company, after all it is you that chooses to show all and sundry information about your limited company on this forum, and by this I can make my own mind up about you and your company from it

No you can't..................

I still think £76,900 per week for cleaning at the site you mentioned is a bit of an exaggeration

I don't care what you think. It's not relevant.

I’m not as experienced as you, so I could be wrong.

You ARE wrong

[BSF]

No CMS I'm not wrong, I can also make very good assumptions from your details,  I wouldnt get a full timer to cover for holiday hours on a contract, so ENICS dont come into my cost, I man the jobs so the other staff can manage the work when a staff member is sick or on holiday, you see I dont take on contracts of less than 20hrs per wk. I manage the contracts so if someone is off, the work is still done.

As I said your cost calculator is a Joke! fact...

Regards

Paul

 

[garyj]

Oh, I found the cost calculator very useful.
You can change it as well to suit your own needs.

It also brings into play a few things that a lot of newbies would leave out and make them think twice before they put in quotes at £7 per hour.

[BSF]

Yea go on Gary you use it, I'm a customer who wants 50hrs per wk from you please quote for me using the cost calculator,  I'm sure the price will be spot on.

[BSF]

Beat you Gary its £27,852 pa, no thanks, I'll try someone else!

 

[garyj]

Don't know if you took the time to read my reply, but you can change it to suit your own needs.

It is a useful tool, if the prices are too high, adapt it.

Simple

[BSF]

Can't you knock off the equipment depreciation/repairs because thats £1200 per year, what about the tabards £158 per year, their expensive for a max of 5 cleaners! dont they last for more than one year or will you insist on new ones?

It does need a wee bit of adapting,, me thinks!!!!

  

[BSF]

Don't know if you took the time to read my reply, but you can change it to suit your own needs.

It is a useful tool, if the prices are too high, adapt it.

Simple

Yea good idea Gary, I'm not bad on excel, I'll do my own, from new.. :

[garyj]

Go on then, at least it will stop you moaning for 5 mins.

[BSF]

yea done it Gary it only took 3 mins, all the best

[garyj]

11:49 pm - 11:19 pm = 30 mins 

Well done BTW, are you going to use it now?

[BSF]

?

can you be more elaborate
 

[BSF]

Gary BTW, GFN 

[CMS]

No CMS I'm not wrong, I can also make very good assumptions from your details,  I wouldnt get a full timer to cover for holiday hours on a contract, so ENICS dont come into my cost, I man the jobs so the other staff can manage the work when a staff member is sick or on holiday, you see I dont take on contracts of less than 20hrs per wk. I manage the contracts so if someone is off, the work is still done.

As I said your cost calculator is a Joke! fact...

Regards

Paul

 

You're very lucky that you can afford to turn down work under 20 hours a week. Some of the newbies can't. Like Lisa, for instance, who originally asked for advice about a job with few hours.

As for the Cost Calculator being a joke.........................as Garyj says, it's possible to manipulate it to suit your needs but you obviously haven't worked that out yet.

It has served me well for 25 years. It's enabled me to build and sell three cleaning companies. In April I will be off to the Carribean for the third time in less than twelve months.

Some joke..........................can you hear me laughing?

What an idiot...............unbelievable 

[shelton]

There we go . .. knew it wouldn't be long.

My English Dictionary defines criticism as;

1 when you say that something or someone is bad; disapproval:
2 when you give your opinion or judgment about the good or bad qualities of something or someone, especially books, films, etc:
Now, opinion;

1 [C] a thought or belief about something or someone:
2 the thoughts or beliefs that a group of people have:
3 [C] a judgment about someone or something:
4 [C] a judgment made by an expert:

It would serve everyone on this forum to respect others lives, choices and opinions.  Entertaining as I find CMS's complete and utter megalomania (description below, word buffs) it is becoming a tad dull.

noun
an unnaturally great desire for power and control, or the belief that you are very much more important and powerful than you really are

But then, I'm a poor, little, junior member, with no right to an opinion (see above) and certainly no rigt to make a criticism (you know where to look).

 

[CMS]

Can't you knock off the equipment depreciation/repairs because thats £1200 per year, what about the tabards £158 per year, their expensive for a max of 5 cleaners! dont they last for more than one year or will you insist on new ones?

It does need a wee bit of adapting,, me thinks!!!!

  

£158 per annum for 5 cleaners is not expensive for uniforms. That's only £30 each. 2-3 tabards each will use up half of that (so they can wash them and look smart). Then there are safety shoes in a lot of places. Do your staff have to go outside to a bin? Do you not give them a company fleece or something?

No, I don't think £30 is dear for a cleaner for a year.

[Fox]

It would serve everyone on this forum to respect others lives, choices and opinions.  Entertaining as I find CMS's complete and utter megalomania (description below, word buffs) it is becoming a tad dull.

Well said Shelton 

[D woods]

This is more fun than watching TV

[CMS]

Yes, I suppose the equipment depreciation and repairs is slightly on the high side but don't forget this covers maintenance, replacements, PAT testing etc.

The point we have been asked here is (and to try and get this thread back on topic) what should we really be charging for office cleaning.

The size of your contracts doesn't matter Paul. Maybe you won't take on smaller contracts but it doesn't matter how big or small they are if they're not making you any money.

Maybe we're in it for different things. I build cleaning companies only with a view to selling them on and for that they have to be as profitable as I can make them. The greater the margins the greater the selling price.

For you winning the business to provide you with an income might be the motivating factor.

You wouldn't take on contracts less than 20 hours a week (or whatever it was you said) and I won't take on contracts with margins less than a certain figure.

To summarise (and for the benefit of the newbies).

Supposing Paul had 5 contracts worth £20,000 per annum each, operating on a 20% margin they would be making him £20,000 per annum profit.

Supposing I had 30 contracts worth £2,000 per annum each, operating on a 33% margin I would also be making £20,000 per annum profit.

Except that I would have had to have sold £40,000 worth of cleaning less than him to achieve it.

If he lost one of his contracts he would lose £4,000 per annum. If I lost one of mine I would lose £600.

The point I am trying to make is that we all operate in different ways..........but I know which side of the fence I would rather be on.

[DP]

CMS
That is the worst example of a business model I have come across and particularly misleading (yet again). You have omitted the "single source" associated cost factor which often completely justify larger works in abundance and continues to do so every day for those who service them.

Any person who has had any real responsibility for budgets in the service industry would know that, especially someone with a £4 million one (what a load of rubbish).

Again you opt for the lower turnover higher gpm as a person who apparently builds and sells cleaning companies, Are you ill!!!

The contradictions are endless.

Ignorance is a poor tool for gathering the flock, but fine for the shepherd who doesn’t know any better.


 

[CMS]

Shed? Medals?

It's getting harder to communicate on here 

Now flocks and Shepherds...................I rest my case 

[lisa123]

can i just say,
i use Karls cost calculator thingy all the time, i just change some of the % or the values to suit, and i can get an idea of how much i should charge per contract.
It has helped me loads when working out a good price to quote.
so there stop squabbling you lot 
i think someone feels a pillock that why they keep ranting on, maybe they are threatened by someone elses thoughts and opinions, get a life loser!! 

[BSF]

No CMS I'm not wrong, I can also make very good assumptions from your details,  I wouldnt get a full timer to cover for holiday hours on a contract, so ENICS dont come into my cost, I man the jobs so the other staff can manage the work when a staff member is sick or on holiday, you see I dont take on contracts of less than 20hrs per wk. I manage the contracts so if someone is off, the work is still done.

As I said your cost calculator is a Joke! fact...

Regards

Paul

 

You're very lucky that you can afford to turn down work under 20 hours a week. Some of the newbies can't. Like Lisa, for instance, who originally asked for advice about a job with few hours.

As for the Cost Calculator being a joke.........................as Garyj says, it's possible to manipulate it to suit your needs but you obviously haven't worked that out yet.

It has served me well for 25 years. It's enabled me to build and sell three cleaning companies. In April I will be off to the Carribean for the third time in less than twelve months.

Some joke..........................can you hear me laughing?

What an idiot...............unbelievable 

Dont you mean Caribbean

I'm surprised you have any time for holidays, your always on here!

I'm no idiot, as I said there is a reason why I dont take work on for less than 20hrs weekly, the main reason being: 2 staff doing 10hrs per wk, if ones off the other covers, you see its easy.

The big contracts run themselves, with very little management. Small ones dont.

Please don’t try and make out that your some big successful business man.

I also know that the cost calculator can be modified, but as I said it does need it.

No I don’t supply fleeces and safety shoes to my staff, is that ok with you?

I also don’t try and tell my customers that I have to pay ENICS for my staff and charge them for it, my equipment is tested annually by my customers.

Hope the weathers nice in the carribean? where ever that is


 

[CMS]

lmao @ pfwest.

What a sad little man.............................

[BSF]

lmao @ pfwest.

What a sad little man.............................

And their you are the big business tycoon coming out with things like that, I'm not so stupid CMS, Its not me that starts name calling people, when that person has all my details at hand.

If I did I could end up getting my fingers burnt....

[CMS]

lmao @ pfwest.

What a sad little man.............................

And their you are the big business tycoon coming out with things like that, I'm not so stupid CMS, Its not me that starts name calling people, when that person has all my details at hand.

If I did I could end up getting my fingers burnt....

I actually think you must be if you think a silly little 'veiled' threat like that would bother/worry me.

And, of course, to make it in an open forum. I suppose you could have deleted your threatening behaviour but not now that I've copied it into my post.

You really should think a bit more..................

 

Oh..........and while we're picking up on peoples spelling mistakes, 'their you are' in the context you used it should have read 'there you are'.

Now then, it's been said before by others but I'll repeat it...........'get a life, loser!'

[M Walker]

Wow what a great thread I have enjoyed it imensly Not!! I thought this forum was dedicated to offering help and advice to all within our industry not bickering between ourselves.Who is better or who is best really I do not care I appreciatte all who have offered advice to me and enjoy surfing and reading the posts of others within the industry. I learn a lot but it is very sad to see people falling out we all have different ideas and methods of achieving the end result. Human nature makes us all slightly different.But back to the topic office cleaning rates I charge any where between £10.00 & £16.00 per man hour depending on the size of the job smaller = dearer. However these hours are only used in my calculations I d try whenever possible to quote for the job rather than quote for x amount of staff for x amount of hours otherwise I have found there are sometimes time issues regardless of the quality of service provided. Please do not critisise my post or my grammer I am only a trainee Expert but very willing to learn
Peace to all
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[CMS]

I agree with you Mark.

So it is with a heavy heart that I am going to bow out gracefully and not bother with this forum again.

You see Guys, when I first started using this forum it was in a period of 'semi-retirement' when I found that I couldn't leave the industry alone. I thought that after 25+ years doing the same thing (and quite successfully) I may have something to give and at least it would keep me involved in some way with the industry. Shortly after that CMS was formed.

Now, I know that I have got strong opinions (I think I'm long enough in the tooth to have earned it!) and your ideas might not always match mine but the personal abuse I am encountering on this forum makes me ashamed to be part of the industry.

I came on here to 'give'. I didn't really need to 'take' anything and I certainly shan't take that.

Yes - I've retaliated a little (I'm ashamed to say that I have lowered myself to the level of others) and anyone who knows me will know that that isn't really my scene.

For that reason I'm outa here.

I won't delete my membership because there are some amongst you who I would love to keep in touch with and my email address is on my profile.

Take care.

[*Chris Browne]

Karl, i think it would be a great loss to everyone on this forum if you decide (and i hope you have second thoughts) to not contribute any more invaluble posts, we have all said some stupid things on here and regreted it later but your positive advice as far outweighed any negative advice by a thousand miles.
We have also all retaliated to comments we think are right, thats only natural but looking back at your posts over the last 12 months or so, you know when your wrong and you say so.
I think there are many many people that have benefited from your advice,Karl...do not let the opinion of 2 or 3 stop you from continuing.

chris

[M Walker]

Well CMS that is a real shame I for one will miss your contributions. I must agree that you seem to have been targeted for your opinions which I think is somewhat unfair I have read all of your posts and others and can honestly say I see what has been happening for many years fighting between ourselves. I honestly believe the only way to get this industry into a competetive market is communication between ourselves and positive promotion of our services. It is not much of a surprise that some of the people and businesses that we work for consider our profession to be on the bottom rung. I hope none are here viewing these posts. On other forums I use once a topic gets out of hand a moderater steps in and shuts it down. I believe this should have happened to this thread some time ago constructive comments are always good for business even if we dont like them. But ultimatley each business is like a baby characteristic of its parents there is no shame in that.
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[BSF]

CMS, I see your back on!

I agree with you Mark.

So it is with a heavy heart that I am going to bow out gracefully and not bother with this forum again.

You see Guys, when I first started using this forum it was in a period of 'semi-retirement' when I found that I couldn't leave the industry alone. I thought that after 25+ years doing the same thing (and quite successfully) I may have something to give and at least it would keep me involved in some way with the industry. Shortly after that CMS was formed.

Now, I know that I have got strong opinions (I think I'm long enough in the tooth to have earned it!) and your ideas might not always match mine but the personal abuse I am encountering on this forum makes me ashamed to be part of the industry.

I came on here to 'give'. I didn't really need to 'take' anything and I certainly shan't take that.

Yes - I've retaliated a little (I'm ashamed to say that I have lowered myself to the level of others) and anyone who knows me will know that that isn't really my scene.

For that reason I'm outa here.

I won't delete my membership because there are some amongst you who I would love to keep in touch with and my email address is on my profile.

Take care.

Why would I want to delete this, your calling me names, dont do it, you dont know me, i'm not a sad little man:

lmao @ pfwest.

What a sad little man.............................

And their you are the big business tycoon coming out with things like that, I'm not so stupid CMS, Its not me that starts name calling people, when that person has all my details at hand.

If I did I could end up getting my fingers burnt....

I have got a life CMS, I'm not a loser!

I dont want you to leave the forum, you do make me laugh! 

Please dont leave!


 

[BSF]

I agree with you Mark.

So it is with a heavy heart that I am going to bow out gracefully and not bother with this forum again.

You see Guys, when I first started using this forum it was in a period of 'semi-retirement' when I found that I couldn't leave the industry alone. I thought that after 25+ years doing the same thing (and quite successfully) I may have something to give and at least it would keep me involved in some way with the industry. Shortly after that CMS was formed.

Now, I know that I have got strong opinions (I think I'm long enough in the tooth to have earned it!) and your ideas might not always match mine but the personal abuse I am encountering on this forum makes me ashamed to be part of the industry.

I came on here to 'give'. I didn't really need to 'take' anything and I certainly shan't take that.

Yes - I've retaliated a little (I'm ashamed to say that I have lowered myself to the level of others) and anyone who knows me will know that that isn't really my scene.

For that reason I'm outa here.

I won't delete my membership because there are some amongst you who I would love to keep in touch with and my email address is on my profile.

Take care.

Their, their or is it there, there, ive got my violin out.

[garyj]

I've got to ask what I would like to read the megalomaniac ramblings of CMS or the antagonistic sad childish rubbish you have written.

Well, Karl wins.

If you do go CMS then it is a sad day indeed.

Why have you let these posts get to you.

Thanks for your advice, if you go I'm sure you and your input will be sorely missed by the experienced as well as the newbies.

[BSF]

I've got to ask what I would like to read the megalomaniac ramblings of CMS or the antagonistic sad childish rubbish you have written.

Well, Karl wins.

If you do go CMS then it is a sad day indeed.

Why have you let these posts get to you.

Thanks for your advice, if you go I'm sure you and your input will be sorely missed by the experienced as well as the newbies.

The newbie’s Garyj, your as bad as CMS, just because someone is a newbie, doesn’t mean they don’t have experience, so please don’t make assumptions about posters, newbie only means new to this forum.

He would be missed, like I said some of his posts are very funny.

[garyj]

Oh well,

Are you going to share your costings spreadsheet with us?

[BSF]

Oh well,

Are you going to share your costings spreadsheet with us?

You can buy it and all proceeds will go to my chosen charity, now who's being antagonistic.

[garyj]

I was being sincere 

That was me being nice.

You're the new CMS.

[BSF]

yea right!

Well do you wanna buy it Garyj? its only £2.00, ok £1.50 to you,, this years charity is: space cadets...

Better not..

CMS might have a copyright on it, afterall it was his invention...

oooohhhhh god,, better watch what i'm saying, he might get the hump!!

and leave the forum,, again.

[M Walker]

I agree with you Gary but I am afraid that I think constructivley CMS had far more to offer. This is very bad for this forum but CMS has gone why than have we now got to deal with Mr Pf wests rantings I suppose I have probabley made myself a target but lets get one thing straight I aint no expert nor am I better than any one else my grammer is not perfect either. And nor am I but I can see foolishness in bundles on this thread I will leave it up to you to decide who the fools are.
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[garyj]

Being a target is OK. Its fun for some of us, and at times I ask for it.
For all his faults, Karl was sincere and a valued member. I don't think he should have been targeted.
He would have made a good mod, when was the last time Woodman  looked in on the forum??

[BSF]

Hi Mr Walker,

Dont worry, CMS hasnt gone, he was logged on here at 2259hrs, its now 2315hrs he might have gone to bed.

I might rant Mr Walker, but please think about your posts, it is nice if members can understand them.

Regards

Mr PF West.

PS. I dont pretend to be perfect either, because i'm not.

PPS. if you dont want CMS to leave tell him that you love him,,, it might work

[garyj]

Love you CMS 

[garyj]

Bet he won't be back now 

[M Walker]

No matter I do not understand you either Why dont we have a poll on who the members prefer that would be interesting  for both CMS and yourself  
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[garyj]

Mark, your not AJ are you 

[AJCleaningServices]

Mark, your not AJ are you

Gary, I am watching you!!!
 

[M Walker]

No sorry Gary just thought it might be more entertaining than this drivel
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[AJCleaningServices]

To be honest this topic has gone out of hands and I am no longer going to read it.
It is always sad when somebody leaves, CMS is not the first, but I hope to see no more…
All the best,
Arthur

[garyj]

Hey AJ

[BSF]

No matter I do not understand you either Why dont we have a poll on who the members prefer that would be interesting  for both CMS and yourself  
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

Please Mr Walker, vote for me I dont lie to you, i'm honest, I'd be gutted if I lost the poll, my lawyer has advised me to add the following post/quote, this is my defence, as follow's:

You're very lucky that you can afford to turn down work under 20 hours a week. Some of the newbies can't. Like Lisa, for instance, who originally asked for advice about a job with few hours.

As for the Cost Calculator being a joke.........................as Garyj says, it's possible to manipulate it to suit your needs but you obviously haven't worked that out yet.

It has served me well for 25 years. It's enabled me to build and sell three cleaning companies. In April I will be off to the Carribean for the third time in less than twelve months.

Some joke..........................can you hear me laughing?

What an idiot...............unbelievable  

After having over twenty years experience in managing Cleaning Companies for others we are now about to set out on a new venture with a cleaning company of our own.

Part of our set up will be a web site but (and I really believe this) this will only be for a prospective client to use as a point of reference. I do not expect it to actually produce any business. Nor will we be relying on advertising to do that for us.

Twenty four years of drumming up new business has taught me that there is NO substitute for going out there and knocking on doors.

Please believe me when I tell you that I don't wish to dampen your enthusiasm but I guess you do not have a cleaning industry background.

Build and sell 3 cleaning companies, but CMS the above quote was only 12 months ago, you have been busy!



And its all my fault,, tar and feather me...

Tell you what if he doesnt come back, I'll call myself Karl f West, I'll become the new clean it up God, I can tell you all about building business's up and selling them for a huge profit, I could even use my laptop on the beach in the Car... ib ean??

and offer advice to you newbies, whilst sunbathing,, afterall its all for a good cause..

Sorry its just my sense of humour, dont take it to heart, before you all reply.. lighten up!, dont call me names.

Please vote for me

[garyj]

I'd quit as well to  support Karl.

But then I'd have  nothing to do all night, and nowhere else would have me.

So I'm staying.


Hey AJ

[BSF]

Good on you Garyj,  have you decided who your going to vote for? if you vote 4me I'll let you have my spreadsheet for £1.00 per month, its dead good honest

[M Walker]

Ha Ha you have got a great sense of humor I like that if nothing else. I agree not every statement made may tally up with previous posts. But who cares not I for one. Now can you help with the question I have posted in the carpet cleaning section
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[M Walker]

You can buy my votes if you like
Mark Walker

[garyj]

Yike, tar is going to be a right git to get out.

What is the carpet made of, as its  commercial I would guess a polyprop, is it ridged or tiles??

I do carpet cleaning, I actually enjoy it .  But I do go about things a bit different to some of the pro's over there.  I'd have a go with a very strong solvent like chewing gum remover, or even white spirit and turn the heat right up.
But  if I posted that over there everyone would say I was wrong.

[BSF]

Hi Mr Walker, sorry I dont know anything about carpet cleaning, but I can learn, CMS posted:

92   UK Contract Cleaning Forum / General Cleaning Issues / Re: What kind of carpet cleaning machine should I go for?  on: February 23, 2006, 07:50:35 PM  
Before you decide on the type of machine you should decide on the method of cleaning (of which there are many).

There is the 'dry foam' method whereby you can use a rotary machine with a carpet brush on it. Using a 'high foam' shampoo you will agitate all the dirt and when it dries you just vac it out. I must confess, not my favourite method.

I have always prefered 'Hot Water Extraction' where a spray of 'low foam' detergent is applied to the surface of the carpet and immediately sucked back out, bringing 'some' of the dirt with it. This is quite tiring and doesn't really get down into the pile.

A combination of the two (in the one machine) is, I think the best method. I'm talking about an extraction machine that also has a brush on it that agitates the pile before the solution is sucked back up.

There are many good machines on the market but if your main business is not carpet cleaning and you mostly do domestic work there is one machine that I would recommend.

This is going to surprise you but it's actually a domestic machine, available from Curry's!!!

It's the Bissell Proheat Protech and is great for small areas. It does everything that the bigger machines do but its only drawback is the size of the solution tank. It would be no good at all for large areas as you would be constantly refilling it but for domestic work - great. And priced about £250.00.

Look here............

http://uk.bissell.com/Products/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Bissell&category%5Fname=DeepCleaner&product%5Fid=PROheat+Pro%2DTech+Upright+Deep+Cleaner+with+Exclusive+Scotchgard+Protector
 

are they any good? (joke) before you take the p##s

I wont lie to you Mr Walker, I know nothing about carpet cleaning,, I use chem-dry,,,,

but try the bissell, CMS said there?,,, their? good

[M Walker]

Thanks Gary I am offline now as I have been called out for early tomorrow but I will be interested to see how this thread continues. night all

Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[BSF]

Yea night Mr Walker, dont forget (Bissell) you can buy one in Currys, think about it b4 u invest so much money, but it will make you a fortune

[M Walker]

I have a machine Prochem powermax it is more the type of staining. I do not believe I would trade my machine for one of those bissel ones regardless of who recommended it. but I thank you for trying to help. Now I am definately off to bed I will ctch up with you all Tomorrow no doubt
Regards
Mark Walker
The Exeter Cleaning Company Ltd

[BSF]

Sorry Mr Walker, I was having a laugh. 

[garyj]

Did CMS really post that??

Just as well he left then 

[garyj]

With advice like that he should have been booted off.

[BSF]

Did CMS really post that??

Just as well he left then

He sure did

Before you decide on the type of machine you should decide on the method of cleaning (of which there are many).

There is the 'dry foam' method whereby you can use a rotary machine with a carpet brush on it. Using a 'high foam' shampoo you will agitate all the dirt and when it dries you just vac it out. I must confess, not my favourite method.

I have always prefered 'Hot Water Extraction' where a spray of 'low foam' detergent is applied to the surface of the carpet and immediately sucked back out, bringing 'some' of the dirt with it. This is quite tiring and doesn't really get down into the pile.

A combination of the two (in the one machine) is, I think the best method. I'm talking about an extraction machine that also has a brush on it that agitates the pile before the solution is sucked back up.

There are many good machines on the market but if your main business is not carpet cleaning and you mostly do domestic work there is one machine that I would recommend.

This is going to surprise you but it's actually a domestic machine, available from Curry's!!!

It's the Bissell Proheat Protech and is great for small areas. It does everything that the bigger machines do but its only drawback is the size of the solution tank. It would be no good at all for large areas as you would be constantly refilling it but for domestic work - great. And priced about £250.00.

Look here............

http://uk.bissell.com/Products/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=Bissell&category%5Fname=DeepCleaner&product%5Fid=PROheat+Pro%2DTech+Upright+Deep+Cleaner+with+Exclusive+Scotchgard+Protector

[woodman]

After receiving  complaints I have decided to lock this topic as it has most definitely run it's course.

Personal and abusive attacks on fellow members have no place on this board,please stick to the subject and offer advice and help as when requested.