CMS

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2006, 06:16:30 pm »
Good luck in your new business Peter.

As for stealing contracts every time any of us gets a new
contract we are tacking it of another contractor what is the difference
we live in a competitive society we are not Communists.





Winning business in fair competition with other Contractors is the way forward.

Winning a contract from your Employer when you are the Cleaning Supervisor is, in my opinion, disgusting.

Just my opinion mind you.....................if you're comfortable doing it then you probably won't mind when it happens to you somewhere down the line.

Peter Stevenson

  • Posts: 17
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2006, 06:29:54 pm »
Winning business in fair competition with other Contractors is the way forward.

Winning a contract from your Employer when you are the Cleaning Supervisor is, in my opinion, disgusting.

Just my opinion mind you.....................if you're comfortable doing it then you probably won't mind when it happens to you somewhere down the line.

CMS, please tell me where you read that were going to steal my employers contract? We haven't even attempted to, we have applied to other companies. Therefore we will be competiting with other contracting companies.

Please make sure you read the facts within this thread throughly before posting unnecessary remarks.

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2006, 06:37:37 pm »
...As for stealing contracts every time any of us gets a new
contract we are tacking it of another contractor what is the difference...

I would just like to say that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between STILLING and WINNING. 

However, I do not understand why there are so many attacks on Peter Stevenson, he has never suggested that he was going to try to still the contract… ???

D woods

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2006, 06:56:03 pm »
The cleaning business (especially daily office cleaning ) is a cut throat business
so dont be shocked when staff/customers/competitors/suppliers act in
a cut throat way .

I am not saying this is the correct way to behave it is just my experiance
of 26 years in the cleaning business.

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2006, 07:05:55 pm »
The cleaning business (especially daily office cleaning ) is a cut throat business
so dont be shocked when staff/customers/competitors/suppliers act in
a cut throat way .

I am not saying this is the correct way to behave it is just my experiance
of 26 years in the cleaning business.
DOGS EAT DOGS - That is not only about the cleaning business I suppose :(, that is our life isn’t… 

D woods

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2006, 08:04:18 pm »
Yes it is Dog eat Dog .It is no use everyone moaning about it it is just the way
it is . I have to say though there are some competitors of mine who I really
enjoy tacking work off so i dont know what that makes me.

CMS

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2006, 08:10:53 pm »
You've missed the point of what I'm saying entirely.

D Woods................

Taking contracts off your competitors is great. I do it all the time.

But how would you feel if you lost a contract to one of your cleaners?  :o

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2006, 08:12:04 pm »
...I have to say though there are some competitors of mine who I really
enjoy tacking work off so i dont know what that makes me.

It makes you a winner ;)

galaxian

  • Posts: 8
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2006, 08:13:50 pm »
CMS,

This is regarding your hypocritical attitude, after all check your own site where you blatantly try to entice others to ditch their existing employers.  Believe it or not it makes you no better to get new employees and contracts this way than you are painting Peter.  Difference is according to the time you have in the industry you should really know better.



http://www.cmscleaning.com/tupe.htm
excerpt:
Have you built up a good working relationship with your existing cleaners whether or not they are employed by you directly or by another Cleaning Contractor?

Legislation exists to protect these employees if you want to appoint Cleaning and Maintenance Services Limited as your Cleaning Contractor.

The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment)  Regulations 1981 will allow the employee to transfer their employment to Cleaning and Maintenance Services Limited with no loss of benefits and continuation of service.

Not everyone qualifies of course under the existing legislation. However if you want to keep your existing cleaning staff but think that they could benefit from better management we will be sympathetic to your wishes.



After all you have done nothing for their business, maybe you deserve your own contracts and to be dealt with honourably by your own staff but really aren't you just a little hypocritical in your viewpoint and extreme aggression to Peter.  If not stop trying to poach what others have worked hard to develop - their team of cleaners and supervisors.

In any business there is an unspoken law, even if it is in a contract, that it is just not done to take employees with you when you leave a company.  You leave the contracts and employees with the company that employed them.  Saying that there are a number of huge household name companies whose leaders have taken other key players along with them upon resignation. but I suppose its okay because they've become the good and the great.  Or perhaps you should point your hatred and scorn to them.

There is another old maxim that people do business with those they like, its not the whole saying, but hard to imagine you being the caring likeable type. While Peter might have made a mistake in judgment by stating about the possiblity of taking employees, but not the cleaning contract, you have lost all understanding of human nature and have extremely negative feedback.  This of course could have been delivered with tact and would thus ensure that others such as Peter would not even contemplate taking what they haven't worked for. 

Regards to all/

Galaxian



Peter Stevenson

  • Posts: 17
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2006, 08:15:18 pm »
You've missed the point of what I'm saying entirely.

D Woods................

Taking contracts off your competitors is great. I do it all the time.

But how would you feel if you lost a contract to one of your cleaners?  :o

CMS, I'm still waiting a response from you... where did I state that we were going to 'steal' my employers contract???

galaxian

  • Posts: 8
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2006, 08:26:28 pm »
Apologies to Peter. 

I have heard so much from others of you stealing contracts, that my recent response to CMS looks ever so slightly unfavourably on your enterprise.  However, now I'm fully up to date and wish you all a good crack at the whip.  I hope you do agree though that indiscriminate poaching is wrong, even though it is often not enforceable unless as mentioned above precautions are built in by employers to protect their investments. 

regards, galaxian 

CMS

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2006, 08:44:55 pm »
Galaxian

What has TUPE got to do with a cleaner taking a contract from under the nose of his employer? Try and keep on subject eh?

"You leave the contracts and employees with the company that employed them"

If you knew anything at all about TUPE you will know that you can't always do this.

Peter

You didn't actually say you were going to take THAT contract but you 'implied' it in your very first post. I wasn't the only one to 'read between the lines' as it's also been pointed out by other posters (read back). We've all seen it so many times and most of us dislike it intensely.

It would be interesting to know how many of those that defend it have actually had it happen to them. How did you feel?

PS...........Galaxian, I have a life (don't need to get one). ...a very good one actually  :D :D :D

Peter Stevenson

  • Posts: 17
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2006, 08:47:02 pm »
Apologies to Peter. 

I have heard so much from others of you stealing contracts, that my recent response to CMS looks ever so slightly unfavourably on your enterprise.  However, now I'm fully up to date and wish you all a good crack at the whip.  I hope you do agree though that indiscriminate poaching is wrong, even though it is often not enforceable unless as mentioned above precautions are built in by employers to protect their investments. 

regards, galaxian 

Hi Galaxian,

I appreiate your comments, although I am not poaching the staff. I along with 3 other cleaners have decided to try and build our own business via registering a limited company, discussions with business advisors etc..etc... and we are all set-up ready to win that first contract  :)

Peter Stevenson

  • Posts: 17
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2006, 08:59:36 pm »
You didn't actually say you were going to take THAT contract but you 'implied' it in your very first post. I wasn't the only one to 'read between the lines' as it's also been pointed out by other posters (read back). We've all seen it so many times and most of us dislike it intensely.

In that case, I applogise for not being clear.

galaxian

  • Posts: 8
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2006, 09:09:12 pm »
CMS,

as stated on your site:
The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment)  Regulations 1981 will allow the employee to transfer their employment to Cleaning and Maintenance Services Limited with no loss of benefits and continuation of service.

This sounds as if you would become the employer.  As such you are enticing them to leave (or for the potential client to ask them to leave their current employment) and have CMS become both the clients cleaning service and the employees employer.  

Apologies if I am wrong on this aspect but the protection of employment doesnt need to be exercised unless one of two things occur, after all if you simply resign and go work for someone else you hold no rights to continuation of service:

the current employer relinquishes control of the company and the new owner has a duty to ensure continuation of employment and contractual obligations, usually for up to 12 months.  (If you are saving peoples jobs then good on you.)

or

As seems to be the case in your text on your website that another company interferes with a companies employees and entices them to work for them while promising contractual continuation via TUPE.  

I could be wrong on this and will check my facts on this.  If this is the case you have my apologies.

"You leave the contracts and employees with the company that employed them" was aimed at what should happen when someone makes a break into self employment thereby leaving their former employer shy of only the individuals input, nothing else.

galaxian

CMS

Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2006, 09:39:47 pm »
Galaxian

Firstly, as I said earlier this is not a thread about TUPE. I would gladly discuss TUPE inside out and back to front with you on the appropriate thread.

This is about the rights and wrongs of an employee taking a Contract in an underhand way from his employer.

Incidentally, I object to you going on about my 'rants' and 'Poor dilusional CMS'.
and comments of this nature. Yes, I made judgemental comments but I think after having twenty five years in the industry I am qualified to do so.

You come on here and make three posts (at the time) before you start 'spouting off'. One of those was a post asking how to start a cleaning company...................lolol  ;D ;D ;D

Before you jump into the unknown, make sure that you know what and who you are talking about.................it helps I find.


galaxian

  • Posts: 8
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2006, 07:24:16 am »
CMS

Removed the offending rants etc.  Apologies.  Any missed let me know as there was no need for them.

This however still changes nothing about the way you show a lack of respect to Peter.  Please allow a little lattitude for the mistakes - or otherwise - of others.  Hoping he'd lose out on all fronts is hardly going to help.

Regarding my own request for info, no probs. take that one on the chin.  I can get majority of the info I need off this forum without posting if necessary. So please don't feel you have to provide any assistance as I see so many forums where well meaning experts tend to offer only criticism of newbies for one reason or another, sometimes vaild sometimes not.  I'm a newbie HERE but believe me I know that those who believe themselves so much better than others seldom offer the best advice as it is often marred by their perceptions of injustices being committed by those who are requesting info and advice.  Right or wrong such advice becomes more a sermon than a measured response.

I'm sure you have helped so many others on this forum and I assume I just jumped in on an awkward thread.  I apologise for beating my drum in response to a thread which had nothing to do with me.  I especially and unreservedly apologise for being offensive at the start, this was  brought about by the manner of your attack on Peter.  Any further modification needed to earlier posts let me know.  This thread offers no promise for me so I'm bowing out.  See you on a different thread.

Best of luck to all on this forum.
Regards, galaxian
 

lynngc

  • Posts: 242
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2006, 09:04:47 am »
good luck in your new business venture.

finding good staff nowadays is like gold dust.

you must have a very good working relationship with your colleges,

with the support from the forum i'm sure you'll keep on the right track.

best wishes

lynn
lynn @ gower cleaning services, swansea.

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2006, 09:35:29 am »
I have just caught up on this thread - phew!

Peter you say that yourself and three other people are going into business and only want to get enough contracts to earn yourselves a living.  Have you done your home work on how much your turnover needs to be before all four of you can take a decent wage?

The cleaning industry runs on a profit % of approx between 19% and 25% of turnover, so if all four of you wanted say £30,000 per year you would need a turnover of approx half a million minimum - how long do you think it is going to take you to get to this?  Have you got the funds readily available to generate this kind of turnover quicky and have you all got money stashed to pay your bills/mortages while doing it?

You are probably going to come back saying it's none of my business but I am just giving you food for thought.  Like I said running a company is nothing like supervising a contract.

As for all the arguments ref stealing contracts from an employer I must say I have to agree with the opinion of it's immoral and wrong, yes I am aware of your statement saying you are not out to steal the contract, but someone must have come up with the idea of starting a company and talked to the cleaners about it (I'm now assuming it was you) so in effect you are taking staff with you, so your employer will have difficulty running the contract, is this not wrong too?  Or are you going to make sure it's restaffed before you leave? (that is your job until the day you leave afterall).

Oh what a web we weave! - Who would have guessed the inital post would have produced such a response!

Fox

Peter Stevenson

  • Posts: 17
Re: Starting up a cleaning company
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2006, 11:35:23 am »
I have just caught up on this thread - phew!

Peter you say that yourself and three other people are going into business and only want to get enough contracts to earn yourselves a living.  Have you done your home work on how much your turnover needs to be before all four of you can take a decent wage?

The cleaning industry runs on a profit % of approx between 19% and 25% of turnover, so if all four of you wanted say £30,000 per year you would need a turnover of approx half a million minimum - how long do you think it is going to take you to get to this?  Have you got the funds readily available to generate this kind of turnover quicky and have you all got money stashed to pay your bills/mortages while doing it?

You are probably going to come back saying it's none of my business but I am just giving you food for thought.  Like I said running a company is nothing like supervising a contract.

As for all the arguments ref stealing contracts from an employer I must say I have to agree with the opinion of it's immoral and wrong, yes I am aware of your statement saying you are not out to steal the contract, but someone must have come up with the idea of starting a company and talked to the cleaners about it (I'm now assuming it was you) so in effect you are taking staff with you, so your employer will have difficulty running the contract, is this not wrong too?  Or are you going to make sure it's restaffed before you leave? (that is your job until the day you leave afterall).

Oh what a web we weave! - Who would have guessed the inital post would have produced such a response!

Fox

Your right Fox, its none of your business.