[Kev Loomes]

Looking at the CFR system, in the US they cost £1,190.00. Over here for the same thing they cost £3,000.00. A difference of £1,810.00
!
Now I can appreciate that they have to be imported and then adjusted for the power rating (I think ?) but the huge difference in price cannot be justified, SURELY - can it?

Is it a case of the usual 'rip off britain' or is there a good and fair reason why it's so much more expensive?

[andy roberts]

I can't answer the question but why not stick to BRITISH products and keep our people employed at home?

Just my opinion,  regards  Andy

[tomh]

true say 

[stains-away]

The reason I've heard for this in the past is that the American market is much bigger and therefore open, whilst the English market is much smaller with much higher overheads for the supplier, in my opinion though its just good old fashioned rip off Britain in action, the reason that they do it is simply because they can, Andy

[John Kelly]

Can't speak specifically about the CFR but as someone who imports and sells things from the states I know a little bit about this.
First of all the American market is huge and as such manufacturers tend to sell a higher volume of products hence they can afford to make less profit on each item. The UK market is relatively small so you can't sell lots of machines. Suppliers only make money on the profit they make on the item being sold. So say you import something from America which costs you £1000. You have shipping costs from the manufacturer to a shipping port, over the sea and then from the receiving port to your premises. Then you have import duty and VAT to add on. This can add upto £500 for starters. Then you have the capital outlay which you have paid out for the product which you don't get back until you sell it. Now you have to sell it, all the costs for the marketing, insurance, storage, premises etc have to come out of the profit you make. Even if you double the price you paid for the item the net profit at the end is relatively small. Also marketing costs are huge. Take a stand at an exhibition like Carpex you are looking at £8-12000 for this alone. So you aren't being ripped off as much as you might think. A group of cleaners on another forum have recently tried banding together to bring some Titanium wands in from the States. In the end they gave it up as a bad deal, all the hassle, paperwork etc they found out it just wasn't worth it and could buy them nearly as cheap over here anyway.

[craigp]

why cant the CFR s to be sold here, be made here?

or why aint no one making as good stuff here?

[Alan_Harrison]

Were you looking to buy a CFR machine or are you just infering that they are poor value for money? I wasn't aware that CFR had a machine that cost £3k. Mine cost much less and it's proved great value over the years.

If you want you can buy a machine from the US. It's very easy to do. You need consider the cost of crating the thing up. Road transport to the airport, US customs fees, Airline freight, airline handling charge, UK import agent fees, duty (contact the DTI), VAT, road transport from UK airport, insurance and currency exchange costs.

There is also the cost of converting them to 230V. Also I don't think you'd be able to take them into a clients house without some kind of PAT test and certification. Someone else might correct me on that though

More important is after sales service from your UK supplier. If you have good business and manage to fill each day with appointments you'll need to import two machines as when it breaks down (and All cleaning machines break down) each day it's out of action will cost you about £250 in lost income.

Hopefully by now you might be thinking that the UK dealers are not quite the rip off merchants that you thought they were. Don't forget the stack of spares they keep just in case you might need them. Don't forget about the machine they might lend to help you out of a tight spot.

If you want to save money buy a used machine or an ex-demo.

If you do decide to import will you order two for me. I'll gladly pay you £1400 for each machine. Can't say fairer than that can I.

Good luck

Al

[Shaun_Ashmore]

isn't the t'internet a lovely thing ? allows us to window shop to look for the cheapest deals but look at the bigger picture. Warranties, service, spare parts, bad products etc it wasn't all that long ago that we would only buy a machine from a local supplier just in case it broke down and you had to take it back !

I appreciate that in the US there are more cleaners to sell to but what about that there are more suppliers, I bet the ratios are the same on Manufacturer to CC.

If in doubt ask the UK supplier for a discount and tell them why if you are ready to buy on that day with money then I'm sure they would find it hard to turn money away !

Hydramaster have said that they will discount Ti wands if there are enough buyers I think they are showing the way.

Shaun

[craigp]

regarding the internet being good (talking in general here not just cleaning) injoy it while it lasts soon manufactures are going to dictate price or sell products for more to internet retailers than highstreet retailers, not sure exactly how there going to work it but end result/aim is the same, internet retailers wont be able to undercut highstreet prices.

high streets been losing out big time since internet and got a big bee in there bonnet.

[John Kelly]

Won't happen. Businesses will sell to whoever they want. Reason internet merchants are cheaper is because they have lower overheads. There is no way a manufacturer is going to give a high street retailer a bigger margin than anyone else. This usually goes on volume and also internet traders would have a good case for legal action.

[Mike1946]

why dont you order over the internet and get the product for the usa price plus import duties

[craigp]

no John it  IS  going to happen.

i know why the internet is cheaper, overheads etc.

[John Kelly]

Mike, all sounds easy, however at the end of the day what happens when it stops working after 3 weeks. Do you think the UK distributor would touch it with a barge pole.

[John Kelly]

Craig where did you get this info from? The internet is now a huge global affair with billions of pounds being spent on-line including on line shops run by many of the big high street chains. I can't see why or how what you are suggesting would happen.

[Shaun_Ashmore]

realistically it depends on what potential customers see as value for money. If a product is £20 000 here but $20 000 in the states there is no way that that certain product will cost the different to bring over here. VAT is charged on incoming items but when we buy things from a manufacturer in the cc world it is usually plus VAT also, it's only transport and duty which is added.

BUT if you were to spend $20 000 on a new machine or what ever you would be wanting a warranty or service on that kind of money as some kind of insurance for yourself.

Back to square one, a good idea for british distributors of US products would be to offer and overstate customer service, a call once a month (usually there is an extra sale to be had)also spares as far as the eye can see, after warranty help with older machines (you never know when they want to buy again)

I'm sure that alot of companies do this but they don't make enough 'song and dance' about it.

How many of us complain about customers price shopping ? well we tell them that we offer far better service, perhaps the distributor should be 'shouting' why they are better than buying from 1000's of miles away.

Shaun

[Kev Loomes]

Al

I wasnt infering anything at all, I also didnt think they were a rip off either. If you read my post I was actually asking the question if this was the case or not. Perhaps you could read it again. I was expecting some honest answers (which is why I posted the question) as opposed to a sarcastic filled reply, but hey - I can take it

I am thinking of getting one - I just needed to know WHY the BIG price difference (were all in business and want to know these things - right?). I also wouldnt mind knowing the pro's & con's too

For those that have replied so far - thanks for the constructive comments!

[craigp]

John,


***Panasonic and Sharp confirmed to The Times yesterday that they had followed Sony in offering discounts to "bricks and mortar" retailers before the busiest shopping period of the year. Phillips and Hitachi are understood to have re-examined their supply contracts.

The online shopping sites say the electrical giants have, in effect, imposed price increases of 10-15 per cent on them for home entertainment products and claim that consumers are being penalised by a pricing policy that is anti-competitive. They have lodged a complaint with the Office of Fair Trading.

The electrical giants maintain that their policies are lawful and that they are merely rewarding shops which showcase, promote and demonstrate their products and offer an after-sales service.

The manufacturers devised their new pricing policies after a forceful lobbying campaign from high street retailers who feared that they were being driven out of business. Traditional electrical shops have borne the brunt of the rapid rise in online shopping and have suffered further with a slump in consumer spending.
***

[Shaun_Ashmore]

as threads go I though that it as quite grown up !

That John Kelly fellow he's a funny un, he thinks he can import a pro license for Glen Roeder, don't bother he'll be sacked by Xmas !!

Wishing you all the best John, well not too well against Sheffield United.

Shaun

[craigp]

you can read the full acticle here; http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1874365,00.html

there is a feeling it my move to other sectors, so far it is just electrical manufacturers.

basiclly highstreets want to see a level playing field and are looking to manufactures to sell to e-tailers the same products for more dosh, or to look at it another way discounted to high streets

[craigp]

unforunutly soon if you see i-pod in dixons, it may well be same price on net

[Shaun_Ashmore]

yeah but you have to look into the television sales war, if Panasonic drop the prices of their tvs it gets in the papers, imagine Prochem doing the same ? it wouldn't reach the same audience. Also the mark up on a tV is probably 5 or 600% also they could be doing this to wipe out a smaller manufacturer, or the TV mountain in manufacturer is too high so to get rid they could sell them off cheap to get money or a new model is on it's way.

I heard a stat on the radio last week that 1 in 6 people in the world have a TV so it is a different market.

I also was talking to a man who hires bouncy castles out and he said he paid £500 for a 1/2 hp air mover to keep the castle up so I don't think we do too bad in our industry, although the internet does help to keep prices affordable.

Shaun

[craigp]

lost me  a bit there shaun all in all its bad for cusumers cus we are not going to benefit from e-tailers low over heads.

 i know this not really effect cleaning stuff i didnt think there was a saving on internet anyway with cleaning products, prices i see on net are same as my local supplier, so i just go there. or hav i been wrong?

1ltr bottle of solvall tenner everywhere in it?

[tomh]

ok this is the way i see it & it changes the thread a bit but !
i brought a TOMTOMONE  satnav online through dixon's at xmas who's head office is also in hemel hempstead ( i live in hemel ) is a walk for me to there hq.
now you may remember bunchfeid petrol holding site explosion where it took out some of the industrial site at xmas which inc dhl who were to deliver this thing, beening unable to be in on day of delivery,  i  got carded & had to pick it up from borhamwood ( dhl ) now i never read the instruction's & plugged it straight in & off we go, instead of the full charge which was needed as touch screen, loads of flashing lights came on screen & it was reading in dutch !
when to dixon's in town centre who werent intrested so up to there hq who said it had to be sorted out online !
after many hours f****** about with it i sorted it out !
buy something online in usa me think not  my leson learnt

[carpetclean]

i think a good point. as you are not paying only for the product but the back up service. we know some companies are not tooo good at this, but on the whole they are OK. companies with premises have high over heads, support systems that need to be financed. its the company who sells the product not the manufacturer who is responsible if anything goes wrong with a machine in the guarantee period, not all machines and the like are perfect and it can be expensive repairing and replacing dodgy parts. it has  already been said about taxes import costs transport costs from the docks or airport all in all an expensive game and the most important point is businesses are in business to make a profit . saying that we all like a deal which is why i joined another forum at http://s14.invisionfree.com/cmslimited/index.php? which is an idea that if enough people clubbed together and bought, prices would go down so the more members they have the better for all of us.
regarding buying on line it can be dodgy as a lot of companies do not have a support system and just want to sell the product when it goes wrong they fob you off with all sorts of excuses and never rectify the problem so in effect the few pounds saved was in fact an expensive mistake. but obviously not all Internet companies are the same there are plenty that give good value and back up their promises

[Ian Gourlay]

I havwe been wondering at what price to US Manufacturers sell to their US dealers distributors.

Because that is the price Suppliers like JOHN , VERNON, ROBERT, MATT, DEREK, RON, STEVE ,NICK. etc should be paying on any supplies they import from the US, or China , not the retail price you see advertised.

[John Kelly]

Unforunately Ian they don't offer you a discount and you have to buy at the retail price, at least thats what I'm finding. Tough cookies those yanks.

[Liahona]

The pros and cons about buying abroad will always be an on going thing........So regards the difference

in pricing and what it really means.....Here in England I think and again say think, that the average

price to clean carpets is or very close to 50p a square foot. This depending on the exchange rate of

course is very close to 3 times the amount you can get for cleaning carpets in the U.S...... Fuel here is

twice or 3 times as much, as is chemicals, food, toys, clothes and just about anything else you can think

of, save mars bars, they are about the same. So, granted most machines in the U.S. are what appears

to be half the price of here in England but you have to remember the cleaners are only getting half or

less than half the amount we are getting here. I have said many times on here that here in England we

make oh so much more than the yanks do but it costs a damn site more to be in business. Having a

business here now and still my business in California I am fortunate to have a direct comparrison of

what costs what and how much "profit" there is....as opposed to GROSS which is pretty much a useless

figure.........As John said a lot of it is pure volume which of course the yanks have. The machine I have



although no one sells them in this country as far as i know would cost I am guessing the best part of

£20,000....... I paid £9,000 and then brought it over to this country. My point is that in 1993 I think, one

 company in the States and yes just one, bought 187,000 of the same machines. Accordingly on such

mass suppling the yanks are able to offer much more for much less..... Last thing, on the whole we are

always moaning that we should get more for what it is we do, as is said above on another post by

better service etcetera...... and then we moan again for not getting it, we want our cuatomers to pay

more for what we provide so shouldnt our suppliers want more from us too? Please note this is an

opinion, not mine as I also think our suppliers could be a little kinder to us. After all they want us to

clean 3 for the price of 2, yet charge us for the price of 3 and only supply 3, anyway I am sure the

debate will continue and for here at least it has got people posting again, been kind of boring recently,

due to the world cup I am sure, best as always, Dave.

[John Kelly]

As regards chemical prices being the same on the net. You have to differentiate between out and out e retailers such as Amazon etc and ordinary suppliers who also have a website. It is the former who are able to offer the big discounts. The latter still usually have showrooms etc to finance.

[Ian Gourlay]

John,

Maybee I will start an import company, if thats the way it works


Dave do not know about States but in Canada the average wage seamed to be higher than it is in the UK.

[Liahona]

Ian,  is that in direct comparisson between the states and Canada? If so dont forget that the Canadian dollar isnt

worth as much as the U.S. dollar. So you would need more Canadian dollars to get the same pay so to speak. Other

than that I have no idea. Accordingly you would need a boat load of Canadian dollars to equal a decent amount of

 pounds. Also on the subject, the dollar is in the toilet for many reasons so it appears that things are cheep over

there. When it was a dollar fifty to the pound it wasnt so cheep and when it was almost a dollar to the pound it was

down right expensive. Just remember the price only changes because we compare it to what the monies are at any

 given time. Other than that the prices in the U.S. just go up the same as they do here.....apart from fuel prices but

that is another long story...best, Dave.