[Nameless Drudge]

Complete minefield , acceptable prices until you find the roof applications which are generally 3-400 % more, leaving me to suspect it's a cheaper solution re-labelled.
Lady calls for a small patio quote and explains she normally does it with a hose pipe,brush and the cheapest fabric softener she can buy and it takes all the green away .
Guess what?,fabric softener is a quat!

So it's lots of trial and error and possible waste of money or blindly trusting those  advertising hardest.Not found one explanation anywhere of products and comparison.

5 litres of algoclear pro at 87.72 plus 11.95 delivery. I am not sure I trust the dilution rates either.
I seek advice. The most expensive may well be the best but I currently have no idea so any help or pointers will be gratefully received.

[Rob clarke]

Complete minefield , acceptable prices until you find the roof applications which are generally 3-400 % more, leaving me to suspect it's a cheaper solution re-labelled.
Lady calls for a small patio quote and explains she normally does it with a hose pipe,brush and the cheapest fabric softener she can buy and it takes all the green away .
Guess what?,fabric softener is a quat!

So it's lots of trial and error and possible waste of money or blindly trusting those  advertising hardest.Not found one explanation anywhere of products and comparison.

5 litres of algoclear pro at 87.72 plus 11.95 delivery. I am not sure I trust the dilution rates either.
I seek advice. The most expensive may well be the best but I currently have no idea so any help or pointers will be gratefully received.

I'm sat looking into all this myself today, where did you see the algoclear pro for sale? as I can't find it on their website only the normal algoclear for use by anyone.

Rob

[mop-n-scrim]

I know where your coming from!
I got confused as to what to buy.   

I wasn't keen on anything that would contain bleach, as a customer had a wall cleaned by a company & the bleach had stripped the garage door paint.

I ended up buying AlgoClear Pro and trialing it on a mates house, I had broken ribs when I did it about 10wk ago, & thought I would need to return to wash over again.
When I mentioned I would be calling later that week to give another go over, he sent me a picture showing it as all gone, saying no need.
I was there last week end & the walls looked liked they had been repainted. We are both more than impressed.
The result it has given me the confidence to be able to sell as an add on service.

So while I can't speak of having broad knowledge on the subject or chemicals, I can vouch for this particular treatment.

Still in a learning curve, esp when it comes to pricing in this area.

pic is before & just after treatment. No algae at all left after as it kills the root...

[chris scott]

Complete minefield , acceptable prices until you find the roof applications which are generally 3-400 % more, leaving me to suspect it's a cheaper solution re-labelled.
Lady calls for a small patio quote and explains she normally does it with a hose pipe,brush and the cheapest fabric softener she can buy and it takes all the green away .
Guess what?,fabric softener is a quat!

So it's lots of trial and error and possible waste of money or blindly trusting those  advertising hardest.Not found one explanation anywhere of products and comparison.

5 litres of algoclear pro at 87.72 plus 11.95 delivery. I am not sure I trust the dilution rates either.
I seek advice. The most expensive may well be the best but I currently have no idea so any help or pointers will be gratefully received.

I don't understand the question…

[Mike Halliday]

The problem could be we are a small (almost insignificant) industry, we don't spend enough money to create interest by any big chemical manufacturers. Why should they spend money on the R&D of soft wash chemicals that are cost effective and work when they won't sell much of it to make a worthwhile profit.

So we are left with adapting available chemicals to suit our needs, luckily we use a chemical that is widely used by a massive industry so it worth the investment for the big chemical companies to produce it.

Quats are widely used by other industries all we need to do is find who uses it & how much they use, because you can guarantee if they are using massive amounts then they will not be paying inflated prices (especially if it's the farming industry as they are penny-pinching misers)

I'm researching various farming chemicals to see if they can be used by us, I must admit it's just shot in the dark research but this chemical I find interesting..........

[Rob clarke]

The problem could be we are a small (almost insignificant) industry, we don't spend enough money to create interest by any big chemical manufacturers. Why should they spend money on the R&D of soft wash chemicals that are cost effective and work when they won't sell much of it to make a worthwhile profit.

So we are left with adapting available chemicals to suit our needs, luckily we use a chemical that is widely used by a massive industry so it worth the investment for the big chemical companies to produce it.

Quats are widely used by other industries all we need to do is find who uses it & how much they use, because you can guarantee if they are using massive amounts then they will not be paying inflated prices (especially if it's the farming industry as they are penny-pinching misers)

I'm researching various farming chemicals to see if they can be used by us, I must admit it's just shot in the dark research but this chemical I find interesting..........

Is that to replace hypo mike? Or to be used like a biocide?

[Nameless Drudge]

http://www.artificialgrasscambridge.co.uk/chemicals/algoclear-pro

Found algoclear pro to buy here.

[chris scott]

The problem could be we are a small (almost insignificant) industry, we don't spend enough money to create interest by any big chemical manufacturers. Why should they spend money on the R&D of soft wash chemicals that are cost effective and work when they won't sell much of it to make a worthwhile profit.

So we are left with adapting available chemicals to suit our needs, luckily we use a chemical that is widely used by a massive industry so it worth the investment for the big chemical companies to produce it.

Quats are widely used by other industries all we need to do is find who uses it & how much they use, because you can guarantee if they are using massive amounts then they will not be paying inflated prices (especially if it's the farming industry as they are penny-pinching misers)

I'm researching various farming chemicals to see if they can be used by us, I must admit it's just shot in the dark research but this chemical I find interesting..........

But it's use will be illegal ,your insurance may  be invalid and it may damage the (render) surface…. It's full of acid .
Kev Martin has a tried and tested,certified biocide that works well and is cheap enough.

[Mike Halliday]

Why??

I can predict you might say .....'using something for not it intended purpose' etc..etc..etc but why is this illegal?

I use washing up liquid for creating foam........ as its intended For washing dishes is this also illegal? Not  being flippant  I would be interested in the legalities of using chemicals for purposes than there intended design

[chris scott]

Bed time reading for you….. http://www.hse.gov.uk/biocides/eu-bpr/authorised-approved-biocides.htm

[Mike Halliday]

You edited your post while I was typing....

You are making an assuption on its performance and the  subsequent results,  like I said I'm just researching it's use, not using it on jobs.

It interesting and worth looking at.

Just seen you posted again while I was typing I will read that link

[chris scott]

If it ain't on here and your useing it as a biocide ….http://webcommunities.hse.gov.uk/connect.ti/pesticides/viewdatastore?dsid=2308&adv=S      your bottom might hurt whilst you are in jail.

[Mike Halliday]

Who said I was using it as a biocide? Perhaps the fact that it's not a biocide is what makes its interesting.

Why will my bottom hurt..... don't the chairs have cushions in prison?

The jails are full of people misusing biocides are they?? I thought it was all drug dealers & shoplifters

[chris scott]

What are you useing it for…your bleach and fairy liquid mix?

[chris scott]

What will be the intended use of the Fam 30 you are researching?
Are you useing it as a hair gell ?

[Mike Halliday]

Now I sense a hint of sarcasm in your posts

I could be clever with my answer and just tell you I was testing its use in an area of cleaning listed on the instructions...... which would blow your argument out of the water but that would not be conducive to this discussion

So I will be honest and say your are correct in your assuption that I'm looking at its application in a softwash role which might be illegal or not effective but what's the problem with a little bit of research at the very least it improves my knowledge of cleaning agents

[Rob clarke]

http://www.artificialgrasscambridge.co.uk/chemicals/algoclear-pro

Found algoclear pro to buy here.

Cheers  how come that seems so expensive compared to others like soft wash pro 50? I'm a newbie to soft washing as you can tell lol

[Nameless Drudge]

Complete minefield , acceptable prices until you find the roof applications which are generally 3-400 % more, leaving me to suspect it's a cheaper solution re-labelled.
Lady calls for a small patio quote and explains she normally does it with a hose pipe,brush and the cheapest fabric softener she can buy and it takes all the green away .
Guess what?,fabric softener is a quat!

So it's lots of trial and error and possible waste of money or blindly trusting those  advertising hardest.Not found one explanation anywhere of products and comparison.

5 litres of algoclear pro at 87.72 plus 11.95 delivery. I am not sure I trust the dilution rates either.
I seek advice. The most expensive may well be the best but I currently have no idea so any help or pointers will be gratefully received.

I don't understand the question…

One could say it is hidden in the plea for advice. I do note,however,that your contributions thus far to this thread are vacuous  in regard to an implied request by myself. Not  what I expected. I was going to call your mobile but desisted due to it being Sunday lest I interrupted your playtime .Though I now observe you are indeed spending that time here. I write tongue in cheek so lay down the advice Chris.

[Nameless Drudge]

http://www.artificialgrasscambridge.co.uk/chemicals/algoclear-pro

Found algoclear pro to buy here.

Cheers  how come that seems so expensive compared to others like soft wash pro 50? I'm a newbie to soft washing as you can tell lol

You would expect that it is down to solution strengths  so when diluted to recommended ratios the more expensive product is capable of making more.There are very few labels if at all on the products that allow comparison hence my initial post.

[Rob clarke]

The problem could be we are a small (almost insignificant) industry, we don't spend enough money to create interest by any big chemical manufacturers. Why should they spend money on the R&D of soft wash chemicals that are cost effective and work when they won't sell much of it to make a worthwhile profit.

So we are left with adapting available chemicals to suit our needs, luckily we use a chemical that is widely used by a massive industry so it worth the investment for the big chemical companies to produce it.

Quats are widely used by other industries all we need to do is find who uses it & how much they use, because you can guarantee if they are using massive amounts then they will not be paying inflated prices (especially if it's the farming industry as they are penny-pinching misers)

I'm researching various farming chemicals to see if they can be used by us, I must admit it's just shot in the dark research but this chemical I find interesting..........

But it's use will be illegal ,your insurance may  be invalid and it may damage the (render) surface…. It's full of acid .
Kev Martin has a tried and tested,certified biocide that works well and is cheap enough.

Hi Chris which biocide does kev martin sell? I've had a look on tiling logistics website but can't see it 

[chris scott]

It's way more complicated than this but this is how I understand it .

"Cheaper" biocides (other than Algoclear) contain a alcohol . This is used in the extraction of the Quats from the soya bean.
 It would be easier to think of it as olive oil.
It's all olive oil for use in cooking.
Your Algo clear is the first press….the extra virgin. The "rest" are  left pressed again… think cheaper supermarket brands.
Back to to Quats…After Algoclear has pressed what it wants out ,Alcohol is then added to the remaining soya beans , this desolves the remaining oil (a solvent) and whats  remaining quats is then extracted.
So All Biocides are not the same but they most will do the same job (very well). They all need to be approved by the HSE so we can use them. It is technically illegal to  mix your own as it has no Hse number or Data sheets supporting it's chemical composition.
We need the "paperwork " back up in the event of something going wrong….it will not prevent things going wrong.
With these products that are approved there will be a specific set of instructions on the dangers of the product, mix ratio's  it's intended use. These will be backed up by a manufacturers product support.

Read the label/data sheet…most don't lie.

Active Ingredients: The active ingredients of the product are listed as percentages and are the chemicals responsible for the control of the microorganisms.
Other (or “Inert”) Ingredients: Inactive ingredients are often grouped into one statement and include items such as soaps or detergents, dyes or coloring agents, fragrances, and water.

Am I boring you?

I am not sure what Kevins bio-cide is called…but he does have one and it works well.

I could go on and provide you with a whole list of Quats based chemicals which work out cheaper….But you would not have the support from the supplier you sometimes need.
Algoclear being the most expensive on the market is still cheap to use . A litre is approx £15 , this mixed with 30 litrs of water will give you approx 100sqm of render cleaning chemical. I would suggest that the going rate in some areas could be around £3/4 per sqm.  Benz and Softwash solutions etc are even cheaper  I think .You go and do the maths….Quats is cheap. It works on most growth and is relativly safe to use.

[Rob clarke]

It's way more complicated than this but this is how I understand it .

"Cheaper" biocides (other than Algoclear) contain a alcohol . This is used in the extraction of the Quats from the soya bean.
 It would be easier to think of it as olive oil.
It's all olive oil for use in cooking.
Your Algo clear is the first press….the extra virgin. The "rest" are whats left pressed again think cheaper supermarket brands.
Back to to Quats…After Algoclear has pressed what it wants out ,Alcohol is then added to the remaining soya beans , this desolves the remaining oil (a solvent) and whats  remaining is then extracted.
So All Biocides are not the same but they all do the same job. They all need to be approved by the HSE so we can use them. It is technically illegal to  mix your own as it has no Hse number or Data sheets supporting it's chemical composition.
We need the "paperwork " back up in the event of something going wrong….it will not prevent things going wrong.
With these products that are approved there will be a specific set of instructions on the dangers of the product, mix ratio's  it's intended use. These will be backed up by a manufacturers product support.

Am I boring you?

I am not sure what Kevins bio-cide is called…but he does have one and it works well.

I could go on and provide you with a whole list of Quats based chemicals which work out cheaper….But you would not have the support from the supplier you sometimes need.
Algoclear being the most expensive on the mark is still cheap to use . A litre is approx £15 , this mixed with 30 litrs of water will give you approx 100sqm of render cleaning chemical. I would suggest that the going rate in some areas could be around £3/4 per sqm. You go and do the maths….Quats is cheap. It works on most growth and is relativly safe to use.

Cheers Chris its put things into perspective for me now 

[chris scott]

No problem.

[Nameless Drudge]

Thank you Chris,that will do for me,no more searching about .

[Kev Martin]

We often spend £1000's researching various chemicals as well as a couple of years before we bring  a Chemical to market and even now with PSRP (Professional Surface Restoration Products) our own brand we still have under 10 products due to the length of time and cost of each before we give it the PSRP label and bring it to market.  We do have a new product called  "PSRP Spray and Walk Away"  which is loosely based on Algoclear.  It is being bottled and labelled as we speak.

I cannot make it clear enough how difficult it is to launch a product like this or any other.  It has taken us nearly 3 years and cost god knows how much to get it right.

[Mike Halliday]

I see Mistral have added a new chemical to its range, they already sold  a quat but now offer a specific softwash chemical......

http://mistralni.co.uk/collections/biocides/products/benz-biocidal-wash-50-didecyldimethylammonium-chloride-ddac-50

Are mistral 'Benz' ? I thought they were another company

[chris scott]

Maybe Mistral decant for Benz..so now Mistral have a product that is legal to use . Mistral supply Raw ….which as I have explained would be illegal.
PLEASE NOTE: We do not sell this product for use as a Biocidal Product. It is the responsibility of the user to obtain registration for formulations based on DDAC 50 when intended use is as a biocide, appropriate to its recommended application and the country or territory in which it will be used.

DDAC is no longer permitted for the use as, or in preparations for the treatment of moss as moss has been reclassified as a plant and comes under the plant protection legislation.

For those looking for 50% DDAC for use as an algaecide please click here for the product approved for use in the UK and Ireland.
The click here takes you to the Benz product @50% active .

[Rob clarke]

We often spend £1000's researching various chemicals as well as a couple of years before we bring  a Chemical to market and even now with PSRP (Professional Surface Restoration Products) our own brand we still have under 10 products due to the length of time and cost of each before we give it the PSRP label and bring it to market.  We do have a new product called  "PSRP Spray and Walk Away"  which is loosely based on Algoclear.  It is being bottled and labelled as we speak.

I cannot make it clear enough how difficult it is to launch a product like this or any other.  It has taken us nearly 3 years and cost god knows how much to get it right.

Thanks Kevin when will this be available to order?

Rob

[Kev Martin]

We often spend £1000's researching various chemicals as well as a couple of years before we bring  a Chemical to market and even now with PSRP (Professional Surface Restoration Products) our own brand we still have under 10 products due to the length of time and cost of each before we give it the PSRP label and bring it to market.  We do have a new product called  "PSRP Spray and Walk Away"  which is loosely based on Algoclear.  It is being bottled and labelled as we speak.

I cannot make it clear enough how difficult it is to launch a product like this or any other.  It has taken us nearly 3 years and cost god knows how much to get it right.

Thanks Kevin when will this be available to order?

Rob

I hope it will arrive by the end of next week

[chris scott]

Send me some please.

[Rob clarke]

We often spend £1000's researching various chemicals as well as a couple of years before we bring  a Chemical to market and even now with PSRP (Professional Surface Restoration Products) our own brand we still have under 10 products due to the length of time and cost of each before we give it the PSRP label and bring it to market.  We do have a new product called  "PSRP Spray and Walk Away"  which is loosely based on Algoclear.  It is being bottled and labelled as we speak.

I cannot make it clear enough how difficult it is to launch a product like this or any other.  It has taken us nearly 3 years and cost god knows how much to get it right.

Thanks Kevin when will this be available to order?

Rob

I hope it will arrive by the end of next week

Ok cheers 

[BDCS]

Send me some please.

Do you have sheep ?

[chris scott]

 

[BDCS]

Will you include softwashing with sheep dip on the course please

[chris scott]

Only if they don't poo in the classroom.

[Kev Martin]

There is a possible opportunity here we could start a a couple of new courses and call them:

"TRY ANY  CHEMICAL TO SEE IF IT WORKS AND SAVE A QUID"
"MIX YOUR OWN HYPO COURSE"
"SHEEP DIP SOFTWASHING FOR BEGINNERS"

 

[Mike Halliday]

this is the problem you can't talk about investigating other chemicals because people think it's about trying to save money or cutting corners. I think it's about increasing knowledge and learning the chemistry of our industry.

I mention investigating the use of a chemical and straight away people think I'm using it to clean Stonehenge  (where  really I'm spraying it on my garden shed and Yorkstone patio).

My background is in carpet cleaning which has companies selling peroxide boosters for £13 which is Ammonia which you can buy from The Range for 99p or Spray & Go coffee stain remover for (I think) £18 which is sodium met'....... sold by home brewers for £4.95 or Mistral for the equivalent of £3.

I would guess every person on here is using a chemical for something completely different for which it was primarily designed for

[Rob clarke]

this is the problem you can't talk about investigating other chemicals because people think it's about trying to save money or cutting corners. I think it's about increasing knowledge and learning the chemistry of our industry.

I mention investigating the use of a chemical and straight away people think I'm using it to clean Stonehenge  (where  really I'm spraying it on my garden shed and Yorkstone patio).

My background is in carpet cleaning which has companies selling peroxide boosters for £13 which is Ammonia which you can buy from The Range for 99p or Spray & Go coffee stain remover for (I think) £18 which is sodium met'....... sold by home brewers for £4.95 or Mistral for the equivalent of £3.

I would guess every person on here is using a chemical for something completely different for which it was primarily designed for

I agree mike even tho I'm a newbie  I think the problem is in the fact of these chemicals coming into contact with neighbours properties or going down drains or possible damage to roofs, render or driveway's if not mixed correctly, for me being a newbie with chemicals I feel like a little fish in a big pond  Lol.

[Kev Martin]

this is the problem you can't talk about investigating other chemicals because people think it's about trying to save money or cutting corners. I think it's about increasing knowledge and learning the chemistry of our industry.

I mention investigating the use of a chemical and straight away people think I'm using it to clean Stonehenge  (where  really I'm spraying it on my garden shed and Yorkstone patio).

My background is in carpet cleaning which has companies selling peroxide boosters for £13 which is Ammonia which you can buy from The Range for 99p or Spray & Go coffee stain remover for (I think) £18 which is sodium met'....... sold by home brewers for £4.95 or Mistral for the equivalent of £3.

I would guess every person on here is using a chemical for something completely different for which it was primarily designed for

Mike

In principal you are right!   However, very often chemicals are a lot more complex than they appear to be.  For example our HDT&G Cleaner PSRP Xtreme is on it's 5th different formulation and every time we get it better and all this has been necessary because of  different issues raised over the years and through results of continuous R&D.  It is not just any old High Alkaline and even though it costs £17.47 a gallon  it is nowhere near the cheapest High Alkaline out there but neither is it the same as a general high alkaline.  Sometimes it pays to buy the better product and just charge for it.  We have penetrating sealers that cost less than £20 a gallon and others that cost close to £200 they are both penetrating sealers and both produced by Miracle but there is no way they perform the same.  I would rather a company like Miracle find that out through their R&D and them spending money than me.  That's why you see dozens of posts on here regarding problems occurring with sealing after cleaning.  So as a result cleaners avoid it like the plague but in truth Sealing is a very very profitable part of cleaning if you use the right sealer and apply it correctly.
All that said what I find most important is that if I use any product on a commercial or domestic floor I can demonstrate to my clients that I am using  a correctly formulated product designed to tackle the problem produced by a professional company with a valid up to date MSDS Data Sheet.  This demonstrates to them that I am responsible, I know what I am doing and have not just knocked a witches brew up at the bottom of my garden.

Incidentally my Daughter uses about 6 different peroxide boosters in Hair Design!  Should I advise her  she no longer needs to pay Wella over £30 a bottle for it because it can be bought  from the Range for 99p?

[chris scott]

My mate makes chemicals in the bottom of his garden.

[Rob clarke]

My mate makes chemicals in the bottom of his garden.

Are they cheap? 

[Kev Martin]

My mate makes chemicals in the bottom of his garden.

You mean you have mates?