[maxcampbell]

I've done Kevin's course, and respect his experience and knowledge, as well as others who say you can do a good job with sufficient dwell, agitation and a wet vac.

However, on job after job we do all the dwell & agitation, then end up winding the pressure (and heat) on the TM up until it's doing the job.

Last one was a riven pattern ceramic glazed tile, 6" sq, that some tit-head had put a topical sealer on. We used hi pH detergent with honing powder, then solvent stripper, rinsing between, but to do an effective job we ended up winding the pressure up to 2,000 psi (through an sx 12), then detailing with a Woodbridge HP hand tool at the same pressure.

I simply don't believe you could have done the jobs we've done without recourse to 1,500 psi or above. Convince me I'm wrong.

[Paul Moss]

Max of course your right. The more heat, aggitation and psi you can hit it with,then the quicker the poope will come out.

[Kev Martin]

I've done Kevin's course, and respect his experience and knowledge, as well as others who say you can do a good job with sufficient dwell, agitation and a wet vac.

However, on job after job we do all the dwell & agitation, then end up winding the pressure (and heat) on the TM up until it's doing the job.

Last one was a riven pattern ceramic glazed tile, 6" sq, that some tit-head had put a topical sealer on. We used hi pH detergent with honing powder, then solvent stripper, rinsing between, but to do an effective job we ended up winding the pressure up to 2,000 psi (through an sx 12), then detailing with a Woodbridge HP hand tool at the same pressure.

I simply don't believe you could have done the jobs we've done without recourse to 1,500 psi or above. Convince me I'm wrong.

Max

So talk me through what you did step by step

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[maxcampbell]

Scrubbed in hi alkaline cleaner with white brush on slow speed rotary (heavy ish 15" taski). Tried honing powder in some areas. Rinsed. Realised we needed solvent stripper, so scrubbed in Triple c solvent (can't remember product name, but it does shift anything, including Taski handle) timed dwell at 20 mins before starting to rinse. Rinsed.

Low bits in riven pattern and grout lines only responded well when got pressure up to over1500 - grout especially, cos it was very coarse. Edges, away from sx12, dealt with with hand scrubbing and hi pressure thru Woodbridge hand tool.

[Kev Martin]

Scrubbed in hi alkaline cleaner with white brush on slow speed rotary (heavy ish 15" taski). Tried honing powder in some areas. Rinsed. Realised we needed solvent stripper, so scrubbed in Triple c solvent (can't remember product name, but it does shift anything, including Taski handle) timed dwell at 20 mins before starting to rinse. Rinsed.

Low bits in riven pattern and grout lines only responded well when got pressure up to over1500 - grout especially, cos it was very coarse. Edges, away from sx12, dealt with with hand scrubbing and hi pressure thru Woodbridge hand tool.

OK

Max couple of questions before I respond

1.  Did you pre wet before HA?
2.  Which High Alkaline?  Mixed to what ratio?
3   Dwell time High Alakaline was down before you agitated and added Honing Powder?
4.  What grit honing Powder?
5.  How long after mixing HP with HA and agitating did you leave before vaccing & rinsing?
6.  The brush you used is it soft to medium bristle?

Kev Martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[maxcampbell]

1 yes for about half of the floor - no eventual difference
2 Alltec heavy duty premium at 4:1
3 about 15 mins, but total dwell time before during & after scrub over 30 mins
4 can't remember for sure but believe 320 or 400
5 see no 3, last bit to be rinsed must have had total 45 - 60 mins
6 taski white stiffish

This, though, is just one illustration. Virtually every job has benefitted from high pressure, whether it's white deposit on riven slate, or dirt in the holes in unfilled travertine. I know Kevin's opinion is that if you do things right you don't need anything other than mop & wet vac, and thanks Paul for the comment - anyone else share experiences?

[SteveAllan]

This is very interesting max, I had the same on a couple of slate jobs and had to repeat the process a couple of times to get the desired result as I have no spinner tool. Maybe SX12 should be on my shopping list.

[Max Campbell]

Steve, what m/c you got? what pressure a) does it go up to, b) did you use?

[SteveAllan]

I don't have one yet Max, using a rotary and wet vac

[Jamie Pearson]

I have an sx12 and a 1200psi portable in our fleet.

I would advise against using pressure on natural stone as it can open up the pores and give you problems.

On ceramic and porcelain they are fine but you need to be careful not to cause grout damage if you rely on them for cleaning power.

I find they are best used for quick rinsing.

On heavily soiled ceramic and porcelain tiles I would be more inclined to deal with them on the acid side of the pH scale.

[Kev Martin]

1 yes for about half of the floor - no eventual difference
2 Alltec heavy duty premium at 4:1
3 about 15 mins, but total dwell time before during & after scrub over 30 mins
4 can't remember for sure but believe 320 or 400
5 see no 3, last bit to be rinsed must have had total 45 - 60 mins
6 taski white stiffish

This, though, is just one illustration. Virtually every job has benefitted from high pressure, whether it's white deposit on riven slate, or dirt in the holes in unfilled travertine. I know Kevin's opinion is that if you do things right you don't need anything other than mop & wet vac, and thanks Paul for the comment - anyone else share experiences?

Max

There are a few anomalies and they are important!

1.  Pre wetting is VERY IMPORTANT and it does make a massive difference.
2.  We want the tile and grout to fill up with water so that when we apply the High Alkaline it works on the surface whilst it is dwelling and not sub surface.
3.  There is a vast difference between High Alkaline Cleaners.  I am not saying Aqua Mix heavy duty Tile & Grout Cleaner or All For Stone Xtreme are the best but they are the ones we have tested this method with so we know they work.
4.  The honing powders also matter regarding which grit you use.  I spent a long time developing 6 grits (soon to be 7) for very good reasons not because I wanted to see how many grits I could produce.  Don't forget what we taught you about the Mohs scale.
5.  The bristle of the brush is also important it must match the stone you are working on and again the mohs scale comes in here as well.
6.  Finally you keep mentioning heat did you use our method hot as well?  I suspect not!!!

I can only re-iterate what I have said many times and that is we have tested this method on at least 10 different surfaces inside and outside.  We used a mosmatic 21" FSC connected to a 300bar 90c T3 Falch with a lot more heat and pressure than the majority of you can produce with a TM and each time the Mono Scrubber, Aqua Mix HDT&G, Honing Powder, mop & Bucket and wet vac produced better results.

This said my method is only one way and if you are happier doing it your way with an fsc then that is your choice.  You need to do it the way you are comfortable with and most happy!


Kev Martin
Marble Life Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Kev Martin]

I have an sx12 and a 1200psi portable in our fleet.

I would advise against using pressure on natural stone as it can open up the pores and give you problems.

On ceramic and porcelain they are fine but you need to be careful not to cause grout damage if you rely on them for cleaning power.

I find they are best used for quick rinsing.

On heavily soiled ceramic and porcelain tiles I would be more inclined to deal with them on the acid side of the pH scale.

Jamie

I agree with the last line regarding acid but a lot depends on the contaminants.  I still prefer to teach alkaline and abrasive over acids until you have the knowledge to know when to use them.

Kev Martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics ltd

[maxcampbell]

Your comments noted, Kevin, and thanks.

We always work as hot as possible, but at the high flows you get with high pressure, it's less hot than you get with carpets.

We did try acid cleaner on some areas, but it wasn't any different to the high pH one. Some parts of the old sealer came away with nothing but an initial rinse, a very little came away with detergent and scrubbing, most came away with dwelled & scrubbed solvent, but significant patches (low bits in the riven pattern and quite a lot of grout lines) needed repeated passes at as high a pressure as we could get.

[Kev Martin]

Your comments noted, Kevin, and thanks.

We always work as hot as possible, but at the high flows you get with high pressure, it's less hot than you get with carpets.

We did try acid cleaner on some areas, but it wasn't any different to the high pH one. Some parts of the old sealer came away with nothing but an initial rinse, a very little came away with detergent and scrubbing, most came away with dwelled & scrubbed solvent, but significant patches (low bits in the riven pattern and quite a lot of grout lines) needed repeated passes at as high a pressure as we could get.

Max

Your welcome anytime!  Anyway it's about time you sat back and put your feet up and let Oliver and the New boy do all the hard work

Kev Martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics ltd

[Jamie Pearson]

We did try acid cleaner on some areas, but it wasn't any different to the high pH one. Some parts of the old sealer came away with nothing but an initial rinse, a very little came away with detergent and scrubbing, most came away with dwelled & scrubbed solvent, but significant patches (low bits in the riven pattern and quite a lot of grout lines) needed repeated passes at as high a pressure as we could get.

Sorry, didn't read properly so didnt realise you were talking about stripping a topical.

Acids are no good for stripping coatings just removing ingrained soiling.

[maxcampbell]

Your welcome anytime!  Anyway it's about time you sat back and put your feet up and let Oliver and the New boy do all the hard work

Kev Martin
Marblelife ltd
Tiling Logistics ltd

I think, to pinch a quote from Allan Simmons, that Olly's wearing out the old one first...