[G O Cleaning]

I have noticed a few posts on here where guys have stated they are using self employed staff - seen similar comments on other areas of the forum. For those which do, how many hrs are these 'workers' actually working for you ? Obvious benefits but if they are working more than just say 'part time hrs' and using your kit / van etc surely this is a big risk ? Or maybe the rules have changed ?

[Rob_Mac]

Mike

This is how I work.

To get round it they need to have their own work as well and be presenting proof that they aren't just working for you, ie invoicing other people

Rob

[BDCS]

My bloke is a self employed decorator - ex ground worker. He works Mon & Tues for me plus other days that I need him and sends an invoice for the days worked

[G O Cleaning]

Mike

This is how I work.

To get round it they need to have their own work as well and be presenting proof that they aren't just working for you, ie invoicing other people

Rob

I understand how it works but simply invoicing other clients may not cut it. If the majority of the work they carry out is for u especially if they use your kit van, no right to substitute workers workers etc they could be deemed to be employed via yourself by hm rev u could be liable for all unpaid ni payee etc
Unless rules have changed ? I need to recheck this with my accountant

[Rob_Mac]

Mike

Everyone I use is a business in their own right, a builder, a plasterer and a scaffolder. They aren't just saying they don't work for me.

It is a very grey area though

Rob

[BDCS]

There are agencys that sort this for you, they cross invoice the different firms for the workers in the pool. The blokes invoice the agency and the agency invoices to supply labour.

[Roger Oakley]

This is how I remember it working for self-employed,
Schedule D numer and NI Number, and OWN tools.

Used to work in an industry where my laptop was all I needed, so own tool.

I also have used SE persons for finishing some jobs, as long as I have had a schedule D and NI number from said persons then don't see what the problem is and don't really see where HMRC will have a problem, it is when you start to use a SE person 52 weeks of the year and you are their only employer, then it get's a bit messy.

[G O Cleaning]

Mike

Everyone I use is a business in their own right, a builder, a plasterer and a scaffolder. They aren't just saying they don't work for me.

It is a very grey area though

Rob

Rob, Do you actually employ anyone 

Carl I used to work as a 'ltd' company (different industry) working for agency's (for over 12 yrs) for some contracts I was based at a clients for over 6mths, gov / hm introduced IR35, agencies sprung up cross invoicing encouraged off shore accounts etc, they failed once they were investigated. Lots of guys moved to America to escape new imposed tax it even effects drawing dividends etc.

As said if only a few days per wk not a problem, but if its a longer duration I would be concerned as it could potentially cost a fortune in back pay, Will check with ac.

[Rob_Mac]

Mike

No I don't

Rob

[chris scott]

Mike

No I don't

Rob

So we are the same...me and you.
Just a couple of muppets with a second hand pressure washer strapped in an rusty old transit van. Blagging people we are the best in the business and know what we are doing!
Ahh true love ..

[BDCS]

I must be posher than you pair as my washer was new  I don't think Roger was peddling yank junk when I was in the market for a new machine - there I go again I bought new, Sorry. I do have some rust patches coming through on my Transit though, It wasn't new 

[Rob_Mac]

My Thor was brand new .

My attitude is that there is a lot of good second hand kit out there because there are a lot of new starts who think it is a piece of cake an then they fall on their a*ses, when they realise you have to put a lot of work in, the kit turns up one Ebay - half price!

I spend a lot of time looking for the right kit, just looking for a box van at the moment, to throw the Farrow System into.

Rob

[Rob_Mac]

Chris

I honestly don't think we are alike.

You have created a fixation with me and want an online bromance, possibly more. I can understand that and it is okay,you look up to me and see me as a role model. 

It is one way and I cannot help you with it.

A quick search has brought this up http://www.g-bar.com/

It may help out. I don't want to go, before you ask!

Rob

[G O Cleaning]

Mike

No I don't

Rob

Rob you surprise me, given the work you mention - seems one hell of a risk.

I have been advised rules havent changed, SE staff ok for occasional work (even this is subject if they use your kit etc) but for anything else employ or you could find yourself liable will continue to employ.

[BDCS]

I'd rather be told off by HMCT than employ a muppet - cross the bridge if you ever come to it. I think even the gov may realise its better to have employment of some sort and take them on full time as things get more stable - it'll only get worse when the pensoin rules kick in 

[TN Cleaning Services Ltd]

In my experience, (most, not all) employees don't seem to be as dedicated to the work you are doing and dont understand or maybe just dont care too much about what you are trying to achive.
Self employed staff are dedicated, because while they are doing the work you put to them,
 its also running their own business so they are wanting to do the best job they can.
Tim.

[chris scott]

Chris

I honestly don't think we are alike.

You have created a fixation with me and want an online bromance, possibly more. I can understand that and it is okay,you look up to me and see me as a role model.  

It is one way and I cannot help you with it.

A quick search has brought this up http://www.g-bar.com/

It may help out. I don't want to go, before you ask!

Rob

We use to go in the g-bar before Garlands  http://www.garlandsonline.com/ ...happy daze full of Mdma.

[G O Cleaning]

I would suggest if you are going to see the 'author' run this by him. Be interesting to see if he thinks running a company is simply 'taking' on self employed or actually employing company staff and going legit.

[Matt Gibson]

Interesting info Mike,

Im just coming up to this point in the business, was hoping to get self employed for a few days a week just to make things easier, but ill have to get some advice from the accountant.  I always thought a couple of days a week would be ok, but as you say, if you get busier and it becomes a full weeks worth etc.. then you might run into problems.

[G O Cleaning]

Interesting info Mike,

Im just coming up to this point in the business, was hoping to get self employed for a few days a week just to make things easier, but ill have to get some advice from the accountant.  I always thought a couple of days a week would be ok, but as you say, if you get busier and it becomes a full weeks worth etc.. then you might run into problems.

Matt, Lot of waffle on here main reason guys use se its CHEAPER full stop.

[Rob_Mac]

The main reason on here it maybe.

It certainly isn't my reason for working this way

Rob

[TN Cleaning Services Ltd]

The self employed guys I use are definitely not cheaper than employees.
Don't know how you work that one out?

[G O Cleaning]

The main reason on here it maybe.

It certainly isn't my reason for working this way

Rob

Explain then 

[G O Cleaning]

The self employed guys I use are definitely not cheaper than employees.
Don't know how you work that one out?

We have one se others are employed, in the past we have used SE office cleaners far cheaper than employed, they where regd to have own transport, ins, equip etc still cheaper than employed.
Once you factor in Employers NI, holiday / sick pay, training courses payroll etc but maybe its me 

[Rob_Mac]

A SSSTS qualified supervisor, with CSCS card, IPAF/PAL license, who works away from home is not cheap to sub contract to.

You may be presuming all SE are the same.

The answer to why I work the way I do is simple - it suits my business, whether that is perceived by yourself as 'legit' or not is neither here or there

Rob

[G O Cleaning]

A SSSTS qualified supervisor, with CSCS card, IPAF/PAL license, who works away from home is not cheap to sub contract to.

You may be presuming all SE are the same.

The answer to why I work the way I do is simple - it suits my business, whether that is perceived by yourself as 'legit' or not is neither here or there

Rob

Rob,
Reason for the initial post was simply curiousity, as you state yourself its a grey area using Se. To be honest I dont really understand your post, as you now mention sub contract which is totally different ball game, anyhow...

If its suits yourself fair play,  I did find it surprising sitting back and looking at some of your posts as I had this false perception that you was running a large company, again this is not a dig  I have spoken to a couple of other members on here who were also surprised with your honesty .
  Funny enough I had the same impression with a anther forum member, via his posts. Having spoken to him it truns out I was totally wrong again.  Have fun best Mike

[TN Cleaning Services Ltd]

View Profile   Re: Using Self employed staff
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 10:25:08 pm » Reply with quote 

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Quote from: TN Cleaning Services Ltd on Yesterday at 07:45:36 pm
The self employed guys I use are definitely not cheaper than employees.
Don't know how you work that one out?

We have one se others are employed, in the past we have used SE office cleaners far cheaper than employed, they where regd to have own transport, ins, equip etc still cheaper than employed.
Once you factor in Employers NI, holiday / sick pay, training courses payroll etc but maybe its me  Roll Eyes 
 
 That's office cleaning though which isn't very highly priced compared to other types of cleaning services.
Does it work out the same for your other services?
 

[TN Cleaning Services Ltd]

How do you copy another persons post so it comes up in the box when you reply?

[king marko]

I used to work "self employed" for a local guy who owned a large window cleaning round.
I used his van, filled up with his water, used his equipment and he insisted on us wearing his uniform.
The only thing I had to pay for was fuel.
I worked full time 5 days a week, but could finish when I'd more or less completed the days work.
I had to ask for time off in advance and book holidays.
The way it worked was I invoiced him after every round completed, and got 50% of the round value

Is what he was/is doing (he has 5 vans out) dodgy then??

[BDCS]

How do you copy another persons post so it comes up in the box when you reply?

In the top right hand corner of each post is a button "quote", press that and write under the quote - quite simple even for me

[G O Cleaning]

I used to work "self employed" for a local guy who owned a large window cleaning round.
I used his van, filled up with his water, used his equipment and he insisted on us wearing his uniform.
The only thing I had to pay for was fuel.
I worked full time 5 days a week, but could finish when I'd more or less completed the days work.
I had to ask for time off in advance and book holidays.
The way it worked was I invoiced him after every round completed, and got 50% of the round value

Is what he was/is doing (he has 5 vans out) dodgy then??

You worked for him full time ... why didnt he employ you Was it possibly cheaper for him   

 Its up to you how you work  - speak to Hmrc tell them exactly what you have posted above here their response.

[Rob_Mac]

Mike

There was no edge to my reply.

It is difficult to determine what is a large business without divulging what my turnover is and what my profit is.

You will appreciate that I wont be doing that.

In perspective I would say that it is not at the level of JV Price but it is, in relation to most others on here, up there.

I am proud that I have managed to develop it the way I have, without the commitment of full time employees, it continues to grow and it is expected, without the Farrow System to take a substantial leap forward, within the next twelve months.

My staggered workload and lengthy spells of no works is the reason for the set up. This is being dealt with.

If you put the amount of actual work time, against turnover & then subsequent profit I have an extremely healthy business.

We are in a quiet spell at the moment and I will do nothing from December to the end of February (same every year).

Dependant on how you view a large business I doubt you could argue that I am doing very well.

If someone phoned me up and said 'I need ten people on site tomorrow morning' it would happen. If there was a further call to get another six people elsewhere - they would not be let down.

It's all about how the business is perceived, how it is perceived on here (to me) is not important, what I gain as profit, whether the people I use feel valued and are well paid and most importantly is the client happy are what I concentrate on.

The business continues to grow and I keep investing profit back into the future development.

Is that a small business

Rob

[G O Cleaning]

Mike

There was no edge to my reply.

It is difficult to determine what is a large business without divulging what my turnover is and what my profit is.

You will appreciate that I wont be doing that.

In perspective I would say that it is not at the level of JV Price but it is, in relation to most others on here, up there.

I am proud that I have managed to develop it the way I have, without the commitment of full time employees, it continues to grow and it is expected, without the Farrow System to take a substantial leap forward, within the next twelve months.

My staggered workload and lengthy spells of no works is the reason for the set up. This is being dealt with.

If you put the amount of actual work time, against turnover & then subsequent profit I have an extremely healthy business.

We are in a quiet spell at the moment and I will do nothing from December to the end of February (same every year).

Dependant on how you view a large business I doubt you could argue that I am doing very well.

If someone phoned me up and said 'I need ten people on site tomorrow morning' it would happen. If there was a further call to get another six people elsewhere - they would not be let down.

It's all about how the business is perceived, how it is perceived on here (to me) is not important, what I gain as profit, whether the people I use feel valued and are well paid and most importantly is the client happy are what I concentrate on.

The business continues to grow and I keep investing profit back into the future development.

Is that a small business

Rob

Yes as you only have one employee .... You, only kidding give us a smile 

[Rob_Mac]

 

Rob

[Knocker]

Hi Rob (M Clean)

Thats a great way to run your business. Making sure the profits end up in your pocket and not somebody elses pocket.

[G O Cleaning]

there you go, enjoy  


http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/

One heading -

Employer's obligations (worker's employment status)

It is a general requirement that those wishing to take on workers consider the terms and conditions of a particular engagement to determine whether the worker is an employee or self-employed. If these requirements are not met it creates unfair competition between those businesses that meet their responsibilities and those that do not.

Think it says it all really

[G O Cleaning]

How do you copy another persons post so it comes up in the box when you reply?

Don't tell him ... then he can't use my quotes  

[G O Cleaning]

Seems that most wc's no what they are doing

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=174155.0