[ChrisOfNottingham]

OK, very basic question here:

When you are cleaning a typical second story window, where do you normally put the top of your ladder - assume the windows are uPVC?

BTW, I'm thinking 'typical' means you can't reach across the whole window from beside the window.

[bobby p]

i always put mine on the sill .  i put the ladder top about so about top rung is above the sill (being careful that ladder wont touch glass) and ive 2 pieces of foam pipe insulation on back of ladder .these as good as stop ladder slip on a plastic sill .   

[ChrisOfNottingham]

So if you have the top of the ladder up to 12" past the sill, does that give you enough height to do a  window like this

http://images.vebra.com/images/7291/010/type1/park20.jpg

or

http://www.expertagent.co.uk/in4glestates/%7B58CAF467-5D45-4EA2-9082-53970D23FAAB%7D/%7B28ecbfd2-1591-47e5-a02e-3b439f67db21%7D/Main/hl018882.jpg

it strikes me that I would need to be standing quite close to the end of the ladder to have any decent reach upwards, mind you I' not particularly tall so that doesn't help. I suppose what I'm asking is, when you are cleaning the window, where abouts does the top rung come to on your body?

Also, would that mean that the advice...

"Do avoid leaning your ladder on window sills because not only is it dangerous but it can damage the sill.

Place the top of the ladder just under the sill instead."

...is to be ignored? I was kind of thinking that it was unrealistic.

[bobby p]

those pics you posted are exactly why i put my ladder on the sill ,rather than under .  i use a wagtail 14 inch squeegee,(extra reach over any other squeegee)  plus in my pouch i carry a pole tip that i can add on to the wagtail handle to give another 6 inch or so

 i always have 3 ladder rungs above my feet , that then allows my knees to have a grip
  how tall are you Chris?  im 6,1  

  i found there was a big fear factor when i first did the type of windows in your photo ,  i think other lads use bigger ladders placing them ABOVE the window/ but i prefer the shorter,lighter ladders myself  
   the top rung is somewhere near my waist and i sometimes find my free hand grips the very tip of ladder while other hand does the squeegee etc .   it probably isnt in the safe manuals but thats how i see most others on the street doing it

[ChrisOfNottingham]

I'm only 5' 6" or 7" so I do loose out there. I think the 'advice' to put the ladder under the sill really confused me because the only other place is above the window but that isn't always possible - mainly due to angle restrictions and placing the bottom of the ladder somewhere suitable.

You are right about the  fear factor. I used to do a lot of rock climbing but standing four rungs down on a ladder when you get to the second story still feels quite exposed to me.  I think I will practice standing like that just using one section and then build up. Goodness knows what the neighbours will think - Ill have to find a bit of drain pipe to inspect or something :-)

Always having a mini extension pole in my belt kit is an excellent idea and one that I will immediately adopt.

Thanks a lot for answering such a basic question, I really appreciate it. I think this must be one of those things everyone assumes you know but I didn't and all my searching on the web only ever found stuff about angles and where to put the bottom of the ladder, not the top.

Added: Actually something else now makes sense, which was the idea of leaving the third extension on a triple ladder at home rather than carry it round all day if you know you won't need it.

[bobby p]

+ on the second of your photos i would normally place my ladder on the outer corner pillars of that bay, ladder as high as poss , and just reach round to do side of the bay  and  praps with small pole tip extension on squeegee  to do main glass


 in your other photo,the curved bay window job, it took me about 3 months to overcome the fear factor of those , but once id learnt the knack of how to pass the mop/squeegee behind my back to change hands i  was ok .  dont lean backwards while doing that !!

 also recommend you have shoes with soft soles and an instep on shoe helps to grip

i also have seen a windie with a stand-off permanently fixed to his ladder about 2rungs down.this he places below the sill so allowing him to be farther off the glass,easier to squeegee  etc (not face to glass) and i considered doing that,but think the standoff would be clumsy and awkward to get around backs of houses when in a hurry 

[ChrisOfNottingham]

Thanks again for the help, I've just been practising on friend's houses so far and I think they all have the worst possible upstairs windows! Round my area there are loads of the ones like in the first photo and I was clueless as to how to do them, I just didn't do the ones in the middle.

I too considered a stand off but another popular thing round here is those decorative vertical tiles (like in the photo) between the first and second story windows that drop off as soon as you look at them, so not so good for leaning on. Also, like you, I could just see a permanently fixed one getting in the way all the time or else you have a detachable one but then you faff about carrying and fixing it on every time. I have got a spring fixed standoff just in case but so far I haven't found a use for it.

I like the idea of passing behind the back, I'll work on that one at ground level first :-)

I don't really get what  you mean about griping with your feet and soft soles/insteps - can you elaborate? I've been using walking boots with a rigid Vibram rubber sole because they give a solid base to stand on.

[bobby p]

i stumbled on the fact that soft rubber soles are better. they curve over a rung better ,like a parrot foot

 imagine youve just climbed  up the ladder on that curved bay and about to wash the uppers .at this point the instep of my shoes is on the rung as i pull my scrubber out of the b.o.ab. - i then ease my feet backwards (a tad ) so now the ball of my foot is on the rungs ,then i raise my arches ,raise up my body  and scrub the windows ,usually scrub 3 uppers ,then put scrubber back down and grab squeegee  and clean and then detail the 3 windows .      i usually keep my knees touching the rungs as that then tends to lean my body towards the glass  

i usually place my ladders twice to do those 5 pane bays , first placing cleans  3 panes and the second placing gets the other two . ive never placed my ladder in the centre section  because that would then mean placing the ladder thrice .  one other thing,dont be tempted to try to find a grab point on the upper frame with your free hand -there isnt one !!   (i hold on ladder tip if need be ,if blowey etc )

[AuRavelling79]

Basic ladder placement.

I used to always use ladder mitts on mine and rest them on the cill.

Now I recommend you place your ladders in the scrapyard (£20 I hear) and get wfp, pronto.

[ChrisOfNottingham]

Basic ladder placement.

I used to always use ladder mitts on mine and rest them on the cill.

Now I recommend you place your ladders in the scrapyard (£20 I hear) and get wfp, pronto.

WPF is fine if you have a round already and are committed to it but this is a new venture for me and so far I have 2 customers, so I don't really fancy the investment in WFP at this point.

[AuRavelling79]

£500 can get you a pole, a back pack, 4 x 25L barrels, a DI cylinder and a water butt. Use it for the tops and awkward windows and provide a full service to your custies not just an 80% one.

[ChrisOfNottingham]

£500 can get you a pole, a back pack, 4 x 25L barrels, a DI cylinder and a water butt. Use it for the tops and awkward windows and provide a full service to your custies not just an 80% one.

That's not a bad idea but I'm still not going to spend £500 based on currently having two customers :-)

[bobby p]

chris,during this week iv thought of you when doing double bay 5 paners ,at top of ze ladder . your background  in mountain climbing will ensure you dont get the true wobblies  ,im sure  

 another tip-try not to go up ladder  when binmen are emptying glass bottles into their truck /or when a co-op deliveryman is clattering an aluminium taillift  -both are VERY  unsettling noises

[G Griffin]

chris,during this week iv thought of you when doing double bay 5 paners ,at top of ze ladder . your background  in mountain climbing will ensure you dont get the true wobblies  ,im sure  

 another tip-try not to go up ladder  when binmen are emptying glass bottles into their truck /or when a co-op deliveryman is clattering an aluminium taillift  -both are VERY  unsettling noises

Good advice; avoid both those situations at all costs.

[ChrisOfNottingham]

chris,during this week iv thought of you when doing double bay 5 paners ,at top of ze ladder . your background  in mountain climbing will ensure you dont get the true wobblies  ,im sure  

 another tip-try not to go up ladder  when binmen are emptying glass bottles into their truck /or when a co-op deliveryman is clattering an aluminium taillift  -both are VERY  unsettling noises

  That reminds me of how when you are climbing and you are feeling exposed and just about to go for the difficult crux move, somehow that is always the time that a cloud goes over the sun and the wind starts blowing.

Actually, my ladder is a shortish triple extension but mostly two sections is plenty for reaching the sill. What I've now been finding is that the runner for the removed third section makes a really good handle to hold on to. I haven't tried doing one of those tall upstairs windows yet but I've been surprised that standing with three rungs to go is not too bad after all and is quite adequate for a lot of windows even without a squeegy extension. I think like many things, the prospect of going up onto that 'last' rung is much worse than actually doing it.

[G Griffin]

NEVER STAND ON THE TOP RUNG!

[bobby p]

ive gone 2 rungs from the top (but only briefly) and theres nowhere to hold i promise you   you cant grab  the ladder tip  at that position .   so NEVER  do it !

 another tip- wear a baseball cap with medium peak as when the peak tip touches the glass it tells you you are leaning in  too much .

[ChrisOfNottingham]

I put last in quotes because I meant last rung you stand not the actual last rung! - sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm still treating having three rungs above my feet as being on the 'last' rung.

[George P]

your feet should be no higher than fourth rung from top,

[ChrisOfNottingham]

your feet should be no higher than fourth rung from top,

= having three rungs above my feet

[bobby p]

its good to have a variety of houses to do. a round thats 100%those double bayers is really only for true masochists !  my rounds got 10%of those , but in more recent times i have sought out the 3 storey victorian gaffs on the high street hill as theyre a challenge(seeing a double decker roof pass you nearby is weird) and nobody wants to do em= better price for me.  ive only took these on as ive now a helper who can ward off the disabled from nudging my ladder with their buggies

[ChrisOfNottingham]

its good to have a variety of houses to do.

The sort window I now can't see how to tackle is the non bay window above a ground floor bay. Some are OK but with many others the bay sticks out so far the ladder looks like it would have to be at very shallow angle and the bays are just wide enough to made access from the side look very awkward too. Even resting on the bay and using a pole doesn't look easy due to the guttering on the bay. This seems to be a real common Victorian style.

Sometimes there is a handy wall in front so it might be possible to go for the shallow angle but often it just turns into flower beds. I keep hoping to spot a cleaner round here do one but I haven't seen any since I started. Rather embarrassingly one of my own windows is like this! I have a suspicion that my cleaner just goes for the shallow angle and trashes as much of my flower bed as he needs to make the ladder feel secure.

[bobby p]

those type are a lot easier to do than the double bay .  i lean my ladder agenst the bottom bay centre top  and go up about 5rungs and from there use a short pole +swivel mop / swivel squeegee to clean the flat window above it .  i use a pole bought in BnQ ,A very light 3part alloy  8ft total length

 ive never had any probs leaning my ladder agenst the guttering ,having my ladder almost vertical means very little weight is on the gutter.



 

[ChrisOfNottingham]

I'm still having trouble with windows over bays, I think other than getting customers this is my biggest problem at the moment.

The Victorian ones seem to have the bay at a height such that the ladder section gets in the way of the pole - unless I were to climb quite far up the ladder but then I start to really worry about breaking the plastic gutter. It seems that you need your shoulders to be near or over the top of the ladder or it is always getting in the way but that puts your head above the gutter and it start to bend rather a lot.

I found using my step ladder was actually pretty good to get round all this but sadly most of time the ground in front of the bays isn't suitable for placing a step ladder and going up 5 or 6 steps.

Then I did another Edwardian(?) house with really tall stories and two side by side windows over the bay. The bay had walls round most of it such that the ladder had to be crazy steep. The bay roof itself was lead covered and at about 30 - 40 degrees, I really just wanted to get on the roof and work from there but it didn't feel like a good situation to explore the frictional properties of lead, so I wimped out. I managed to mostly pole one window from on one the side of the bay but even then messing about with 8 foot of pole standing 6 or 8  feet up the ladder just feels like bad weight distribution.

I think the answer is that I need to go higher up the ladder, then the ladder top is out of the way and the pole can be a bit shorter too but I'm too concerned about the gutter and toppling over backwards :-)

Interestingly, while I was messing around on this house (a friends, not a customer) trying to work out what to do, no less than three people from houses near by asked me if I would do their's - and I had to say "not yet!" but apparently no one can seem to find cleaners round there. It did make me wonder if other cleaners don't like those bays either because all the houses had them.

[dave0123]

if you can't afford WFP you may want to look and a double A ladder for the windows in question specially the second pic you are talking about alot safer

[bobby p]

chris-what size ladders are you using?   my main ladder these days is a 9 rung double (youngman) ,domestic model)  i saw the great guy WAGGA has one of these on his videos on youtube  and he recommends it and has used that ladder for years apparently . they are cheap at 61quid in wickes,another bonus . i sometimes use a ten rung ladder and that works okay too.  occasionally use a longer Harris pole from the ground, the great mywagga videos on yoube are worth their weight in gold  (mywagga) and they show how it can be done without using a ladder

  because a 9 or 10 rung ladder isnt too long ,its easy to pole above a bay while standing perhaps 4 rungs down from the top .   i hope you get those fresh customers that asked you chris,you know it makes sense

[ChrisOfNottingham]

chris-what size ladders are you using?   my main ladder these days is a 9 rung double (youngman) ,domestic model)  i saw the great guy WAGGA has one of these on his videos on youtube  and he recommends it and has used that ladder for years apparently . they are cheap at 61quid in wickes,another bonus . i sometimes use a ten rung ladder and that works okay too.  occasionally use a longer Harris pole from the ground, the great mywagga videos on yoube are worth their weight in gold  (mywagga) and they show how it can be done without using a ladder

  because a 9 or 10 rung ladder isnt too long ,its easy to pole above a bay while standing perhaps 4 rungs down from the top .   i hope you get those fresh customers that asked you chris,you know it makes sense

Thanks for all this. I have realised that my ladder is way too heavy. I made the mistake of watching a few ladder safety videos and was convinced into buying a robust "professional" wide triple. I don't even need the top section and leave it off now but even two sections is still heavy. The other mistake I made was putting on a Base Mate. It's a great product but it turns an already heavy ladder into something that is unbalanced and way too heavy.

I'm not sure how I'll get on trying to level a ladder without a BM but I'm hoping that a lighter ladder will be easier to jiggle around and find a level spot or choc up with those rubber block things. The trouble with a heavy ladder is that everything is harder and slower.

I guess I'll keep both but try to reserve the heavy one with the Base Mate for those crazy placements.

[bobby p]

sounds like youre out on the streets.good lad Chris 

[ChrisOfNottingham]

sounds like youre out on the streets.good lad Chris 

Thanks, but yes and no I'm getting back into it now but I've been off (if you can be "off" when you only have 4 customers!) with a succession of viral complaints. I did one days canvassing and got three customers - quite pleased about that - then was feeling crap for so long that their 4 weeks came round again! I have been doing a bit of practice on my own house just to keep my hand in. Anyway, feeling pretty good now and off to Wickes to get a nice light weight 9 rung domestic extension ladder.

[bobby p]

in the towns i work i see a few oldtimer cleaners using this same Youngman 9 or 11 rung double domestic too- these are blokes who dont mess around /a sure sign of a good ladder is that .

[ChrisOfNottingham]

I've got my Youngman 9er and it is so much easier. Apart from being about half the weight of my other ladder, which is a Titan triple, it is not so rigid. This sounds like a bad thing but in fact the problem with the Titan is that even if you only have a small gap between a rail and the sill/ground the ladder wobbles. It is too rigid to flex a bit and make four point contact. No one wants to climb a wobbling ladder, so you waste time trying to find a good placement.

One thing I do miss is the "locking flap" which prevents the two parts of the ladder sliding over each other when you carry it, I might try to fit one myself.

[bobby p]

you will find that your triple trade ladder,once extended out, flexes just right to always make good 4point contact. this is for WHEN  you decide to take on the high next floor up jobbies !  

 manouvering an extended  long ladder from window to window on a busy high street  sure gets the adrenalin pumping !!!

[dave f]

sounds like a billy smarts circus act any one available for bookings lol

[johnny bravo]

if it is unsafe   too high  just do not risk  trying to stretch that extra few inches,   if you fall  you may be stuck in a wheel chair the rest of your life,     leave them to the reach and wash gang, its so easy to fall   not so easy to get back up.