[Kev Martin]

I am currently having new Double Glazing fitted in my flat.  The four large windows overlooking the High Street are cleaned once a month by a guy with a WFP.  Firstly every time we have it done it never seems to be a brilliant job, I would describe it as adequate, but it is deffo better than not having it done at all.  My question is having just had new windows installed:

1.  Can the frames be cleaned at the same time?
2.  Is there a difference in WFP Cleaning?
3.  Do different WFP’s Ionics etc produce different results?
4.  What’s a fair price?  (he does 3 flats in a row 12 Windows in total  all first floor above a busy high st and likes to do them at 7am)

Any advice welcome and I don’t want to give the poor guy a hard time but equally I don’t want the new DG looking like its 5 years old after a month.

Kevin

[Shrek]

The frames and sills can and should be cleaned at the same time , I do this for all my customers and there’s no excuse not to do them (unless your paying him peanuts).
All wfp systems produce the same results .
It’s irrelevant how many jobs he’s got , it’s what your happy paying.
Sounds like a pain in the @ss job to be honest! I don’t know many that would take on flats above a busy high street which needs to be done at 7am

[DeLuce]

Can't comment on the price. Area difference and accessibility. I'd have to see it 
But all wfp systems should give same result, clean windows!
Also, like Shrek said, frame and sills every time I clean. That's the good thing with wfp.

[Kev Martin]

The frames and sills can and should be cleaned at the same time , I do this for all my customers and there’s no excuse not to do them (unless your paying him peanuts).
All wfp systems produce the same results .
It’s irrelevant how many jobs he’s got , it’s what your happy paying.
Sounds like a pain in the @ss job to be honest! I don’t know many that would take on flats above a busy high street which needs to be done at 7am

He does it at 7am through his own  choice it means that the High Street is quiet, no pedestrians to get in his way whilst he is doing it.  He then also moves on into the precinct and does all those, he uses some sort of trolley system.  When I say 1st Floor it is only the same as the upstairs windows in a house.  My flat is essentially a bungalow built on top of the shops.

[Dry Clean]

I am currently having new Double Glazing fitted in my flat.  The four large windows overlooking the High Street are cleaned once a month by a guy with a WFP.  Firstly every time we have it done it never seems to be a brilliant job, I would describe it as adequate, but it is deffo better than not having it done at all.  My question is having just had new windows installed:

1.  Can the frames be cleaned at the same time?  ...yes but you need to be careful above vents, openers and so on.
2.  Is there a difference in WFP Cleaning? ... no a clean window is a clean window.
3.  Do different WFP’s Ionics etc produce different results? .... no again a clean window is a clean window but some operators think they need snake oils and magic wands to achieve decent results.
4.  What’s a fair price?  (he does 3 flats in a row 12 Windows in total  all first floor above a busy high st and likes to do them at 7am)......  Whatever both parties are happy with.

Any advice welcome and I don’t want to give the poor guy a hard time but equally I don’t want the new DG looking like its 5 years old after a month.
Kevin

[The Jester of Wibbly]

Also worth noting that windows will never stay perfect very long on a busy high street compared to a residential area.  There will be far more dust and air particals flying around through high volume of vehicles and industrial activity.

[p1w1]

1,  Frames should be cleaned at the same time really.
2, No
3, No
4, Whatever your both happy with, your job sounds a slight pain and he's probably doing it that early as its the only good time to do it without having the public around.

You haven't really said what the issue is, is he leaving spots on the glass, frames not being done, certain area not being cleaned (like over a vent) etc. I suspect as you've said he's using a trolly then he is having to conserve water and not able to give the glass and frames a proper rinse. On the flip side your job sounds a pain in the ass and you would probably struggle to get someone else if you sack him off, also your in an area with probably heavy traffic so there not going to stay perfectly clean for long.

[dazmond]

Most trolley guys do a crap job cos their usually trying to conserve water so don't rinse enough or clean the frames properly....

[alank]

A mate of mine cleans properties on a busy main road. The glass is a pavements width away from the road these are done fortnightly wfp they are clean when he leaves he does a good job with no water issues like purity or running short on water. But the traffic throws up that much dirt they are at times minging the next day. So the windows and frames should be acceptable and get dirty over time not left dirty if you know what I mean. But the job sounds ok to clean so your windows should be clean even if only for a shorter time hope this makes sense kev

[nathankaye]

I agree with daz.
If he's using some sort of trolley thing (your words) then he will be trying to reserve water which unfortunately can go against them as you need a good flow and a certain amount of water to do a good job (regardless if done fast or slow).
It sounds like this chap is perhaps trying to stretch his water out too far. Though I can understand why he's chosen to clean at such a time, tho personally I wouldn't be doing residential work before 8.30 myself.

I also hate these experiences as well, because they don't win over customers onto wfp and I bet this makes you think Kevin, that there's no way you will switch onto wfp as its not as good as mop n squeegee.

[Stoots]

Wfp isn't always perfect.

But luckily it does a good enough most of the time to get away with it.


I cleaned my windows last week in direct sunlight. A few hours after they dried they were shocking for spotting. Oddly the next day not in direct sunlight the spotting had totally disappeared, at least it the eye.

[John Mart]

The frames and sills can and should be cleaned at the same time , I do this for all my customers and there’s no excuse not to do them (unless your paying him peanuts).
All wfp systems produce the same results .
It’s irrelevant how many jobs he’s got , it’s what your happy paying.
Sounds like a pain in the @ss job to be honest! I don’t know many that would take on flats above a busy high street which needs to be done at 7am

He does it at 7am through his own  choice it means that the High Street is quiet, no pedestrians to get in his way whilst he is doing it.  He then also moves on into the precinct and does all those, he uses some sort of trolley system.  When I say 1st Floor it is only the same as the upstairs windows in a house.  My flat is essentially a bungalow built on top of the shops.

It sounds to me as if he's doing them at that time out of necessity.

[Splash & dash]

With new windows there shouldn’t be a problem yes the frames and sills should be done each time : I don’t agree with the comments about all wfp users getting the same results that’s not the case at all some people use water with a high tds reading this will not clean as well as 000 reading it also depends how thourough the person is doing the work is he slap dash or does he take his time and Do a good job ! Also hot water will give better results than cold , we pick up a lot of work from people that are unhappy with there currant cleaner for the reasons that you have mentioned most of the time there is no reason that the finished result with wfp should be the same if not better than trad methods and the windows should stay cleaner for longer I would suggest that you explain your issues with him and see what happens if no improvement get a better window cleaner

[Shrek]

The frames and sills can and should be cleaned at the same time , I do this for all my customers and there’s no excuse not to do them (unless your paying him peanuts).
All wfp systems produce the same results .
It’s irrelevant how many jobs he’s got , it’s what your happy paying.
Sounds like a pain in the @ss job to be honest! I don’t know many that would take on flats above a busy high street which needs to be done at 7am

He does it at 7am through his own  choice it means that the High Street is quiet, no pedestrians to get in his way whilst he is doing it.  He then also moves on into the precinct and does all those, he uses some sort of trolley system.  When I say 1st Floor it is only the same as the upstairs windows in a house.  My flat is essentially a bungalow built on top of the shops.

It sounds to me as if he's doing them at that time out of necessity.

Like John said , he does them at that time because he’s no choice really - if he does them after 7am , then he’ll be dripping water on people.
I always turn these jobs down for the following reasons
• no parking, so have to use a trolley
•on a busy high street
•upstairs flat
•time restrictions

I’d give the guy a medal 🥇

[Kev Martin]

Firstly I know SFA about window cleaning Trad or WFP.  Thank you all for your replies though it has given me several things to think about.

He told me he cleans early because he doesn’t want the hassle of the general public.
I saw my friends house being done with a WFP the other day and I thought at the time his windows looked a lot better afterwards than mine ever do.  However, it seems from most of your comments he is trying to conserve water.
The job is a PITA and probably not ideal but the 3 of us pay him £40 and it takes him less than 20 minutes.  We also religiously pay him cash on the day without fail.  I don’t know if it’s cheap or expensive but I do know 3 others turned it down and I now get the reasons why.

Once again thanks for all your replies regarding a subject I know nowt about

Kev

[dazmond]

some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window?

[Dry Clean]

Firstly I know SFA about window cleaning Trad or WFP.  Thank you all for your replies though it has given me several things to think about.

He told me he cleans early because he doesn’t want the hassle of the general public.
I saw my friends house being done with a WFP the other day and I thought at the time his windows looked a lot better afterwards than mine ever do.  However, it seems from most of your comments he is trying to conserve water.
The job is a PITA and probably not ideal but the 3 of us pay him £40 and it takes him less than 20 minutes.  We also religiously pay him cash on the day without fail.  I don’t know if it’s cheap or expensive but I do know 3 others turned it down and I now get the reasons why.

Once again thanks for all your replies regarding a subject I know nowt about

Kev

The problem is the majority of wfp'ers know even less about the method than you do which is why you get so much conflicting
information, luckily as long as you can use the equipment knowing how or why it works is something that's not needed.
If you're not getting good results on the day then its down to the cleaner and nothing else, the length of time they stay clean
will depend on whats around you to dirty them.

[Kev Martin]

some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window?

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

[Kev Martin]

I wonder how much would it cost me to buy a small WFP system for myself?  It would only have to reach up to house height but I could then do the other 4 windows on my balcony side which I do trad at the moment and we could then do my warehouse as well which is currently done trad by my warehouse guy.  What do you pro’s think?

[dazmond]

I wonder how much would it cost me to buy a small WFP system for myself?  It would only have to reach up to house height but I could then do the other 4 windows on my balcony side which I do trad at the moment and we could then do my warehouse as well which is currently done trad by my warehouse guy.  What do you pro’s think?

so how much does he charge you for your windows then?your post wasnt very clear......at the end of the day he s probably charging more for the PITA factor(and the time of day he has to do them).

if he s not cleaning your frames he s ripping you off regardless of how little hes charging you.he should be doing the whole glass,sills,frames EVERY VISIT.......

[dazmond]

you could buy a pole,barrels,backpack and a DI vessel and resin for under £500......

[Shrek]

some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window?

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

[Shrek]

you could buy a pole,barrels,backpack and a DI vessel and resin for under £500......

If he’s being charged £10 a month from the windy , then he’ll get his money back in 4 years 

[dazmond]

you could buy a pole,barrels,backpack and a DI vessel and resin for under £500......

If he’s being charged £10 a month from the windy , then he’ll get his money back in 4 years 

i thought id let him figure that one out!......personally i wouldnt bother if i were him......

[KS Cleaning]

Perhaps he is scrimping on water to stop the water dripping onto the shop windows below? which in turn can lead to poor results.

[Kev Martin]

some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window?

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

He does the 3 flats, 12 Windows all in a line, 4 Windows each flat for £40, we take it in turn to pay so it is £160 per year per flat

[Kev Martin]

Might be worth telling us a bit more about what the issues are with the windows to help us understand the problem.

As for the frames. If they are old and and town centre based the pvc could be discoloured and grubby.  Or maybe you might have damaged seals causing particles to get in between the glazing.  As you said new windows are being installed so I suspect they must be old and worn anyway.

We are having new windows installed because we want a through draft and more ventilation.  The way the old windows were designed meant we couldn’t get any air running through the flat.  The new windows are tilt and turn.  All this led to me asking the question because the frames from the high street side are black and filthy dirty.  This is either down to it being on the high street or his crappy cleaning.  I suspect from all your replies he is scrimping on water.  I just don’t want the same to happen to the new windows hence my question about buying my own kit.  It is not about the money, it is about the standard of cleaning achieved.  I will happily pay double or even treble to get the best job.

[Kev Martin]

Perhaps he is scrimping on water to stop the water dripping onto the shop windows below? which in turn can lead to poor results.

Yes this makes sense

[John Mart]

some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window?

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

He does the 3 flats, 12 Windows all in a line, 4 Windows each flat for £40, we take it in turn to pay so it is £160 per year per flat

Don’t know where you are but I charge £15 for a flat. If they had to be done on a High Street though I’d either charge more per flat or more likely not do it. Especially if parking was not possible. If you want perfect windows you’d be advised to move. 

[Kev Martin]

some window cleaners  are just not very good regardless of method used.i clean some offices on a busy main road every 6 weeks and they often still look pretty clean after 6 weeks.......

IMO £40 sounds expensive...so he s charging you £10 a window?

No he is charging £40 for 12 windows which he does in about 20 minutes.  But he then walks 2 minutes into the open shopping pedestrian precinct and does about 5 or 6 shops in there as well.  But he has been and gone in less than an hour.  I am guessing but he probably gets a £100 in under an hour

Is he charging around £13.33 for each 3 properties or is it you and 3 neighbours at £10 each?

He does the 3 flats, 12 Windows all in a line, 4 Windows each flat for £40, we take it in turn to pay so it is £160 per year per flat

Don’t know where you are but I charge £15 for a flat. If they had to be done on a High Street though I’d either charge more per flat or more likely not do it. Especially if parking was not possible. If you want perfect windows you’d be advised to move. 

You have that wrong It says in my Profile where I am!  I don’t however know where you are!  Parking is no problem! There is a car park 40 yds away which is Free of Charge.  I don’t want perfect windows just Clean Ones

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

You're not happy, sack him.  You'll soon find out whether he was any good or not when you compare him to whoever comes next. £40 for 12 windows sounds expensive but it all depends on the situation- maybe you could take a photo?

[Spruce]

Its also a 'free' world where we have a choice. If your current window cleaner isn't doing a satisfactory job then you could look for one that will clean frames and do a better job.

Its my opinion that if the frames are left dirty then its very difficult to only clean the glass and do a good job. As with any trade, you get those who do the least possible for the most reward and then those who take pride in their work. Window cleaning is no different. In fact, we know a window cleaner who looks for customers who are happy with a 90% job. He says you will never do a perfect job. At most you can accomplish is 95% and that takes twice as long to achieve another 5% which is hardly noticeable. Its all about money to him, and window cleaning is a numbers game if that's what drives/motivates the window cleaner.

As has been posted earlier, a trolley user is trying to save water so this could also be an issue. But it could also be that his water isn't as pure as it could/should be.

Pricing is a very contentious issue.  If the window cleaner was doing a job to your satisfaction I doubt you would have posted your 'grievance' on here. I also doubt that you would have analysed his local to you route and calcuated his hourly rate.

I clean a 3 story Victorian house on the High Street which was converted to an accountant's offices many years back. It takes me  about 40 minutes to complete. I've done this place for nearly 10 years. When I quoted I allowed myself 45 minutes to do the job during normal business hours. But as the  High Street has become more busy its was taking me over twice as long. Recently a Wetherspoons has opened next door and foot traffic is horrendous, not to mention parking. So to do the job in reasonable time, I have to get there for 6/7am on a Sunday morning  and a little later in the winter. So does this mean that I should reduce my charge because I'm not taking so long? No.

Our customer has broken the actuator lever on one of her new velux windows. Velux will come out and the cost is £100 to have a look at it. He then charges £50 an hour or part thereof to fit the actuator which is held on with a few screws. The actuator cost £100.  Total cost £250 and did we mention that VAT needs to be added to that. Now I wouldn't hestitate to say that the overheads to employ that tradesman to do that job isn't anywhere near what my overheads are as a wfp window cleaner. ( I do appreciate that his costs are exaggerated and skewed due to the size of the corporation his works for.) A couple of years back I divided my total annual running costs (expenses) by the number of jobs I had done that year. I didn't include wages. Each job cost me £4 to just arrive at the door; water filtration, insurances, fuel, servicing, equipment etc. - no wages. I run on a shoe string and I don't have a new van which would add to those costs and do most of my own vehicle maintenance.  That year I also didn't buy an expensive equipment - poles etc, just a couple of new brushes.

So before I start your 3 properties it will cost me £12 just to be there and then I have to pay myself a wage on top of that. I also have to consider putting a little aside to pay for living when I can't get out during bad and/or windy weather. This last winter has been rather difficult for windows cleaners in the North East because of the bad weather.

As with most window cleaners, we have a minimum charge. I would expect your window cleaner also has one. His minimum charge would take into consideration his costs which would include his wages.

.

[Kev Martin]

Its also a 'free' world where we have a choice. If your current window cleaner isn't doing a satisfactory job then you could look for one that will clean frames and do a better job.

Its my opinion that if the frames are left dirty then its very difficult to only clean the glass and do a good job. As with any trade, you get those who do the least possible for the most reward and then those who take pride in their work. Window cleaning is no different. In fact, we know a window cleaner who looks for customers who are happy with a 90% job. He says you will never do a perfect job. At most you can accomplish is 95% and that takes twice as long to achieve another 5% which is hardly noticeable. Its all about money to him, and window cleaning is a numbers game if that's what drives/motivates the window cleaner.

As has been posted earlier, a trolley user is trying to save water so this could also be an issue. But it could also be that his water isn't as pure as it could/should be.

Pricing is a very contentious issue.  If the window cleaner was doing a job to your satisfaction I doubt you would have posted your 'grievance' on here. I also doubt that you would have analysed his local to you route and calcuated his hourly rate.

I clean a 3 story Victorian house on the High Street which was converted to an accountant's offices many years back. It takes me  about 40 minutes to complete. I've done this place for nearly 10 years. When I quoted I allowed myself 45 minutes to do the job during normal business hours. But as the  High Street has become more busy its was taking me over twice as long. Recently a Wetherspoons has opened next door and foot traffic is horrendous, not to mention parking. So to do the job in reasonable time, I have to get there for 6/7am on a Sunday morning  and a little later in the winter. So does this mean that I should reduce my charge because I'm not taking so long? No.

Our customer has broken the actuator lever on one of her new velux windows. Velux will come out and the cost is £100 to have a look at it. He then charges £50 an hour or part thereof to fit the actuator which is held on with a few screws. The actuator cost £100.  Total cost £250 and did we mention that VAT needs to be added to that. Now I wouldn't hestitate to say that the overheads to employ that tradesman to do that job isn't anywhere near what my overheads are as a wfp window cleaner. ( I do appreciate that his costs are exaggerated and skewed due to the size of the corporation his works for.) A couple of years back I divided my total annual running costs (expenses) by the number of jobs I had done that year. I didn't include wages. Each job cost me £4 to just arrive at the door; water filtration, insurances, fuel, servicing, equipment etc. - no wages. I run on a shoe string and I don't have a new van which would add to those costs and do most of my own vehicle maintenance.  That year I also didn't buy an expensive equipment - poles etc, just a couple of new brushes.

So before I start your 3 properties it will cost me £12 just to be there and then I have to pay myself a wage on top of that. I also have to consider putting a little aside to pay for living when I can't get out during bad and/or windy weather. This last winter has been rather difficult for windows cleaners in the North East because of the bad weather.

As with most window cleaners, we have a minimum charge. I would expect your window cleaner also has one. His minimum charge would take into consideration his costs which would include his wages.

.

Thank you for your post the content of which has been noted but you are slightly digressing from the actual issue.  I merely asked for some advice regarding WFP Cleaning with pure water so that I could reach an informed decision as to whether My current window cleaner is doing a satisfactory  job. 

[The Jester of Wibbly]

Why not just take it up with your window cleaner.  Probably the best way for you to go.   Show him the issues you have and he should be able to either let you know the issue or change his method a little after he investigates. Then you can decide if you want to continue with him.  Are your neighbours satisfied?

Without a detailed description of the issues or even a photo as asked before we can't really proivide accurate info.

[Matt.]

£40 for 20 mins work is all day, cash on the job aswell  ...... Not sure what time a lot of u start work but with commercial most are out earlier than this.

I don't use a trolley even tho I have one, I would just add another 100m of hose to go from the van were ever it's parked, and at 7am most high streets even pedestrian zones can be drove down.

Just have a look at ur windows up close kev, can u see spotting on them, or is there runs from top frame, try and describe it if possible, if he doesn't do ur frames ask him why not as it's part of the job. Windows and frames cleaned each time.

Truth is Kev it's the same everywhere u go, personal standards but lots try to get away with more and more until the custard complains.

AV a little chat to ya windy if ya not happy let him know ur concerns and see what happens.

And as last resort buy a tds metre off eBay ( £10-£15 ) and ask him for a sample of his water, the reading should be 000 but a bit of give and allow it upto 010

[Kev Martin]

Why not just take it up with your window cleaner.  Probably the best way for you to go.   Show him the issues you have and he should be able to either let you know the issue or change his method a little after he investigates. Then you can decide if you want to continue with him.  Are your neighbours satisfied?

Without a detailed description of the issues or even a photo as asked before we can't really proivide accurate info.

To be honest you have all been very helpful.  I now understand the short comings of the WFP method of cleaning and with the spotting he is leaving it is now my opinion that:

A.  His water is not pure or not pure enough
B.  He is trying to also save water so is therefore not rinsing satisfactorily.

The next time he comes I will actually pay attention to the way he does it.  The fact is probably as SPRUCE says that he is either skimping, or not using pure water to save money and keep costs down.  What he is probably frightened of is increasing the price.  So rather than sack him off I will suggest he does it correctly and I will pay whatever extra it costs for  hopefully a better result.  Whatever, he is doing wrong or trying to save time and money on he has the redeeming feature of being 100% reliable and punctual.

[Kev Martin]

£40 for 20 mins work is all day, cash on the job aswell  ...... Not sure what time a lot of u start work but with commercial most are out earlier than this.

I don't use a trolley even tho I have one, I would just add another 100m of hose to go from the van were ever it's parked, and at 7am most high streets even pedestrian zones can be drove down.

Just have a look at ur windows up close kev, can u see spotting on them, or is there runs from top frame, try and describe it if possible, if he doesn't do ur frames ask him why not as it's part of the job. Windows and frames cleaned each time.

Truth is Kev it's the same everywhere u go, personal standards but lots try to get away with more and more until the custard complains.

AV a little chat to ya windy if ya not happy let him know ur concerns and see what happens.

And as last resort buy a tds metre off eBay ( £10-£15 ) and ask him for a sample of his water, the reading should be 000 but a bit of give and allow it upto 010

Matt

My thoughts entirely in fact we were both writing at the same time (see above). Great minds eh!

[֍Winp®oClean֍]

Why not just take it up with your window cleaner.  Probably the best way for you to go.   Show him the issues you have and he should be able to either let you know the issue or change his method a little after he investigates. Then you can decide if you want to continue with him.  Are your neighbours satisfied?

Without a detailed description of the issues or even a photo as asked before we can't really proivide accurate info.

To be honest you have all been very helpful.  I now understand the short comings of the WFP method of cleaning and with the spotting he is leaving it is now my opinion that:

A.  His water is not pure or not pure enough
B.  He is trying to also save water so is therefore not rinsing satisfactorily.

The next time he comes I will actually pay attention to the way he does it.  The fact is probably as SPRUCE says that he is either skimping, or not using pure water to save money and keep costs down.  What he is probably frightened of is increasing the price.  So rather than sack him off I will suggest he does it correctly and I will pay whatever extra it costs for  hopefully a better result.  Whatever, he is doing wrong or trying to save time and money on he has the redeeming feature of being 100% reliable and punctual.

I bet he is... £120 an hour for doing a crap job as quickly as possible- I bet he can't get enough mugs like that!!

[Spruce]

Its also a 'free' world where we have a choice. If your current window cleaner isn't doing a satisfactory job then you could look for one that will clean frames and do a better job.

Its my opinion that if the frames are left dirty then its very difficult to only clean the glass and do a good job. As with any trade, you get those who do the least possible for the most reward and then those who take pride in their work. Window cleaning is no different. In fact, we know a window cleaner who looks for customers who are happy with a 90% job. He says you will never do a perfect job. At most you can accomplish is 95% and that takes twice as long to achieve another 5% which is hardly noticeable. Its all about money to him, and window cleaning is a numbers game if that's what drives/motivates the window cleaner.

As has been posted earlier, a trolley user is trying to save water so this could also be an issue. But it could also be that his water isn't as pure as it could/should be.

Pricing is a very contentious issue.  If the window cleaner was doing a job to your satisfaction I doubt you would have posted your 'grievance' on here. I also doubt that you would have analysed his local to you route and calcuated his hourly rate.

I clean a 3 story Victorian house on the High Street which was converted to an accountant's offices many years back. It takes me  about 40 minutes to complete. I've done this place for nearly 10 years. When I quoted I allowed myself 45 minutes to do the job during normal business hours. But as the  High Street has become more busy its was taking me over twice as long. Recently a Wetherspoons has opened next door and foot traffic is horrendous, not to mention parking. So to do the job in reasonable time, I have to get there for 6/7am on a Sunday morning  and a little later in the winter. So does this mean that I should reduce my charge because I'm not taking so long? No.

Our customer has broken the actuator lever on one of her new velux windows. Velux will come out and the cost is £100 to have a look at it. He then charges £50 an hour or part thereof to fit the actuator which is held on with a few screws. The actuator cost £100.  Total cost £250 and did we mention that VAT needs to be added to that. Now I wouldn't hestitate to say that the overheads to employ that tradesman to do that job isn't anywhere near what my overheads are as a wfp window cleaner. ( I do appreciate that his costs are exaggerated and skewed due to the size of the corporation his works for.) A couple of years back I divided my total annual running costs (expenses) by the number of jobs I had done that year. I didn't include wages. Each job cost me £4 to just arrive at the door; water filtration, insurances, fuel, servicing, equipment etc. - no wages. I run on a shoe string and I don't have a new van which would add to those costs and do most of my own vehicle maintenance.  That year I also didn't buy an expensive equipment - poles etc, just a couple of new brushes.

So before I start your 3 properties it will cost me £12 just to be there and then I have to pay myself a wage on top of that. I also have to consider putting a little aside to pay for living when I can't get out during bad and/or windy weather. This last winter has been rather difficult for windows cleaners in the North East because of the bad weather.

As with most window cleaners, we have a minimum charge. I would expect your window cleaner also has one. His minimum charge would take into consideration his costs which would include his wages.

.

Thank you for your post the content of which has been noted but you are slightly digressing from the actual issue.  I merely asked for some advice regarding WFP Cleaning with pure water so that I could reach an informed decision as to whether My current window cleaner is doing a satisfactory  job.

IMHO if he isn't cleaning the window frame and your aren't happy with the results then he isn't cleaning to your satisfaction.  So by extension, he isn't doing a satisfactory job. One of the things the EU did for us was to provide a detailed description of what constitutes a window. Its the glass, the frame and the sill.

So you could talk to him and express your concerns. I'm not sure I would be thinking of offering him extra to do a job he should already be doing. It will end up him just doing what he has always done and you paying more.

There aren't many of us who can be that reliable that our customers know the day and the hour as to when we will arrive. This could well be another issue. If he can't get out one day due to the bad weather, does he go like Tucker's dogs and cramb that lost day into the following day. Rushing wfp is a 'slippery slope'.

The process that most of us follow is to clean the upper window frame, then the glass and then the lower frame. The best clean is 2 passes with the brush over the glass and then a full rinse. Personally, I prefer to lift the brush slightly away from the glass when I rinse to ensure that any dirt that might still be left on the brush doesn't effect the quality of my clean.

There are window cleaners who rinse with their brush on the glass, but I have found that when I do that I can't always guarantee to myself that the result is to my satisfaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnRRSYdoXw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_43bkUQY_T4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uuPft4tjLk

I can honestly say that our customer's windows are cleaner and stay cleaner for longer since we converted to wfp 13 years ago from traditional window cleaning. Our older customers who have been with us since Adam was a lad before we changed to wfp will tell you the same thing. They already told us that years ago.
.

[Splash & dash]

If he is doing a poor job why on earth would you offer him more to do the job right he should already be doing that , what he’s charging is good money for poor work get rid of him and get a decent cleaner who will do it properly, if you give him more money he will be thinking what a mug you are

[G Griffin]

I wonder how much would it cost me to buy a small WFP system for myself?  It would only have to reach up to house height but I could then do the other 4 windows on my balcony side which I do trad at the moment and we could then do my warehouse as well which is currently done trad by my warehouse guy.  What do you pro’s think?

Don't tell him, Pike!
Let's have some solidarity here, chaps.
Kev can afford to pay it. Just pay, tight arse.

[Spruce]

I was thinking about this last night Kev. Does your window cleaner use fan jets?

Some window cleaners use fan jets to save water. But I have never been able to use fan jets as I can never get enough water onto the glass to create a  curtain of rinse water cascading down the window on certain types of glass. Also, the direction of the flow of water from fan jets is less predictable than pencil jets,. The overspray that is more associated with fan jets could also be bringing the uncleaned muck down off the top frame.

We bought a trad round many years ago. The trad cleaners never cleaned the frames; they just cleaned the glass. If your windie is one of those glass only trad cleaners who converted to wfp, he may think he can just do the same as he did trad and get away with it. 
 

[John Mart]

I was thinking about this last night Kev. Does your window cleaner use fan jets?

Some window cleaners use fan jets to save water. But I have never been able to use fan jets as I can never get enough water onto the glass to create a  curtain of rinse water cascading down the window on certain types of glass. Also, the direction of the flow of water from fan jets is less predictable than pencil jets,. The overspray that is more associated with fan jets could also be bringing the uncleaned muck down off the top frame.

We bought a trad round many years ago. The trad cleaners never cleaned the frames; they just cleaned the glass. If your windie is one of those glass only trad cleaners who converted to wfp, he may think he can just do the same as he did trad and get away with it.

We have one or two like that around here.

[Kev Martin]

When it comes to engaging or employing people one thing I am not is a mug.  As a company one of our services is training other trades to become Hard Floor Cleaners.  Quite a lot of these guys tend to come from a Carpet Cleaners background.  Lots not all Carpet Cleaners come to us with a fixed mindset that they cannot overcharge per square foot or they won’t get the job.  We teach them that each Hard Floor  job is unique and to  forget carpets and price per Sq Ft.  We demonstrate  that they should charge accordingly for each job taking into account  all the different factors. 
Most of you have pointed out that my particular job is a bit of a pain so I would rather talk to him first before sacking him off because I get the impression I am not going to find it easy to replace him unless there are any of you who cover Solihull who want the job. 

[The Jester of Wibbly]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

[Kev Martin]

I was thinking about this last night Kev. Does your window cleaner use fan jets?

Some window cleaners use fan jets to save water. But I have never been able to use fan jets as I can never get enough water onto the glass to create a  curtain of rinse water cascading down the window on certain types of glass. Also, the direction of the flow of water from fan jets is less predictable than pencil jets,. The overspray that is more associated with fan jets could also be bringing the uncleaned muck down off the top frame.

We bought a trad round many years ago. The trad cleaners never cleaned the frames; they just cleaned the glass. If your windie is one of those glass only trad cleaners who converted to wfp, he may think he can just do the same as he did trad and get away with it.

We have one or two like that around here.

John

Sorry mate I am not sure of his history.  My wife engaged him about 5 years ago and this problem has only reared its ugly head when we had the DG Windows renewed.  That said I was talking to the fitter and he said he had installed a 3 Storey house with new windows situated on a Very Busy High  a few months ago and then said he drove past the other day and the frames looked so black like they had been in 20 years.

[Shrek]

Ask the double glazing firm to put in hydrophilic glass, not hydrophobic. If it’s possible....

[Kev Martin]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

To complain to anyone you have to know what you are talking about, hence my reason for seeking sensible advice from Professional Window Cleaners first.  There was no point in me confronting my guy when there may have been a perfectly good reason for his actions.  I do for example know that some councils have issues with jobs being done without barriers.  I also do not believe that every WFP Window Cleaner is on the CIU forum and even if they are and don’t want to take me on for your reasoning that is your and their decision which I would accept.  Personally I think I am a great customer

[Kev Martin]

Ask the double glazing firm to put in hydrophilic glass, not hydrophobic. If it’s possible....

Good point I never asked our DG company but regardless it is too late now as 80 % of the windows are fitted.  Whilst I appreciate Hydrophilic glass would probably help it is not really just the glass that is the main issue it is more the frames.   We are specialists in cleaning and Sealing Products and I could simply seal the glass and frames with a Titanium Dioxide based type sealer and change the way the glass performs the same as racing drivers do with rainex or similar.  However I think it more important that I chat to our WC first.

[John Mart]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

To complain to anyone you have to know what you are talking about, hence my reason for seeking sensible advice from Professional Window Cleaners first.  There was no point in me confronting my guy when there may have been a perfectly good reason for his actions.  I do for example know that some councils have issues with jobs being done without barriers.  I also do not believe that every WFP Window Cleaner is on the CIU forum and even if they are and don’t want to take me on for your reasoning that is your and their decision which I would accept.  Personally I think I am a great customer

To be fair, once you have a word with him he’ll probably go on a Facebook forum complaining about a crappy job he’s got in the town centre with no parking that has to be done at 7 in the morning with crappy frames that were installed incorrectly and run and an arsehole flat owner has been on some forum or other and now reckons he knows more about window cleaning than someone who’s been doing it for 30 years. 

[Shrek]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

To complain to anyone you have to know what you are talking about, hence my reason for seeking sensible advice from Professional Window Cleaners first.  There was no point in me confronting my guy when there may have been a perfectly good reason for his actions.  I do for example know that some councils have issues with jobs being done without barriers.  I also do not believe that every WFP Window Cleaner is on the CIU forum and even if they are and don’t want to take me on for your reasoning that is your and their decision which I would accept.  Personally I think I am a great customer

To be fair, once you have a word with him he’ll probably go on a Facebook forum complaining about a crappy job he’s got in the town centre with no parking that has to be done at 7 in the morning with crappy frames that were installed incorrectly and run and an arsehole flat owner has been on some forum or other and now reckons he knows more about window cleaning than someone who’s been doing it for 30 years. 

😂😂😂

[Kev Martin]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

To complain to anyone you have to know what you are talking about, hence my reason for seeking sensible advice from Professional Window Cleaners first.  There was no point in me confronting my guy when there may have been a perfectly good reason for his actions.  I do for example know that some councils have issues with jobs being done without barriers.  I also do not believe that every WFP Window Cleaner is on the CIU forum and even if they are and don’t want to take me on for your reasoning that is your and their decision which I would accept.  Personally I think I am a great customer

To be fair, once you have a word with him he’ll probably go on a Facebook forum complaining about a crappy job he’s got in the town centre with no parking that has to be done at 7 in the morning with crappy frames that were installed incorrectly and run and an arsehole flat owner has been on some forum or other and now reckons he knows more about window cleaning than someone who’s been doing it for 30 years. 

Why?  Is that what you would do?

[John Mart]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

To complain to anyone you have to know what you are talking about, hence my reason for seeking sensible advice from Professional Window Cleaners first.  There was no point in me confronting my guy when there may have been a perfectly good reason for his actions.  I do for example know that some councils have issues with jobs being done without barriers.  I also do not believe that every WFP Window Cleaner is on the CIU forum and even if they are and don’t want to take me on for your reasoning that is your and their decision which I would accept.  Personally I think I am a great customer

To be fair, once you have a word with him he’ll probably go on a Facebook forum complaining about a crappy job he’s got in the town centre with no parking that has to be done at 7 in the morning with crappy frames that were installed incorrectly and run and an arsehole flat owner has been on some forum or other and now reckons he knows more about window cleaning than someone who’s been doing it for 30 years. 

Why?  Is that what you would do?

No. I just thought it was an amusing juxtaposition.

[dazmond]

At the end of the day he s defo not cleaning the frames if the frames are black....

Just tell him you want the frames cleaning too....but not for any extra money....if their new windows then it'll take 2 mins....

At £40 for 12 windows he should be anyway....

[Kev Martin]

I think you will struggle to find a replacement on here.  No one would want a customer who goes to public forums before speaking with the wc to complain.

To complain to anyone you have to know what you are talking about, hence my reason for seeking sensible advice from Professional Window Cleaners first.  There was no point in me confronting my guy when there may have been a perfectly good reason for his actions.  I do for example know that some councils have issues with jobs being done without barriers.  I also do not believe that every WFP Window Cleaner is on the CIU forum and even if they are and don’t want to take me on for your reasoning that is your and their decision which I would accept.  Personally I think I am a great customer

To be fair, once you have a word with him he’ll probably go on a Facebook forum complaining about a crappy job he’s got in the town centre with no parking that has to be done at 7 in the morning with crappy frames that were installed incorrectly and run and an arsehole flat owner has been on some forum or other and now reckons he knows more about window cleaning than someone who’s been doing it for 30 years. 

Why?  Is that what you would do?

No. I just thought it was an amusing juxtaposition.

Amusing?  QUESTIONABLE   Juxtaposition?  YES. 

What grade in English did you achieve?   

[Jonny 87]

Ask the double glazing firm to put in hydrophilic glass, not hydrophobic. If it’s possible....

Good point I never asked our DG company but regardless it is too late now as 80 % of the windows are fitted.  Whilst I appreciate Hydrophilic glass would probably help it is not really just the glass that is the main issue it is more the frames.   We are specialists in cleaning and Sealing Products and I could simply seal the glass and frames with a Titanium Dioxide based type sealer and change the way the glass performs the same as racing drivers do with rainex or similar.  However I think it more important that I chat to our WC first.

FYI that would make the glass Hydrophobic, the opposite of what you want for window cleaning
 
He will probably want to charge you another £40 if you make them hydrophobic. 

[Missing Link]

4.  What’s a fair price?  (he does 3 flats in a row 12 Windows in total  all first floor above a busy high st and likes to do them at 7am)

I doubt you'll find another window cleaner to do them.

I wouldn't even bother to quote; 7 am and a busy high street would turn me off.

Plus the customer sounds like a right whinge too.

[AuRavelling79]

Hi Kev - just noticed this thread - been away on holibobs living the high life in my 24 year old caravan. 

You've got a lot from the guys above to think on. But forgive me if I missed it - you said you were having tilt and turn windows fitted and you "only" have three of them?

Can you not do them from the insides now?

If I have missed something and you still want them cleaned externally I would say ...

Most other window cleaners that don't do shops/high streets as a niche will not be interested. Those that do will realise yours is a one off in amongst another window cleaner's work and realise there is little room for expansion. If you were able to get the other flat owners across to a new window cleaner at £40, then would it be worth it to him?

Probably not as he will have the issue of water dripping on shops below and either feel the obligation to clean theirs or feel the wrath when he says "not my problem". Or do them at a time when they aren't about to notice.

All in all I would do them from the inside if not then talk to the other flat owners and ask their view. If you are getting brand new UPVC frames then buttonhole the windy and ask "innocently" whether the new frames get done at the same time as the glass (if your old ones were wood or aluminium he may have avoided doing them for "milk" runs and drips)  as you want everything kept up to scratch.

He will feel a little embarrassed if he has been avoiding top frames and assure you that they will be included as UPVC doesn't cause the same issues as the old non UPVC ones.

The price in my opinion is at the upper end of "OK" but 3 windows will always fall into the "minimum charge" territory which is often £10 - £12 anyway.

[Kev Martin]

Hi Kev - just noticed this thread - been away on holibobs living the high life in my 24 year old caravan. 

You've got a lot from the guys above to think on. But forgive me if I missed it - you said you were having tilt and turn windows fitted and you "only" have three of them?

Can you not do them from the insides now?

If I have missed something and you still want them cleaned externally I would say ...

Most other window cleaners that don't do shops/high streets as a niche will not be interested. Those that do will realise yours is a one off in amongst another window cleaner's work and realise there is little room for expansion. If you were able to get the other flat owners across to a new window cleaner at £40, then would it be worth it to him?

Probably not as he will have the issue of water dripping on shops below and either feel the obligation to clean theirs or feel the wrath when he says "not my problem". Or do them at a time when they aren't about to notice.

All in all I would do them from the inside if not then talk to the other flat owners and ask their view. If you are getting brand new UPVC frames then buttonhole the windy and ask "innocently" whether the new frames get done at the same time as the glass (if your old ones were wood or aluminium he may have avoided doing them for "milk" runs and drips)  as you want everything kept up to scratch.

He will feel a little embarrassed if he has been avoiding top frames and assure you that they will be included as UPVC doesn't cause the same issues as the old non UPVC ones.

The price in my opinion is at the upper end of "OK" but 3 windows will always fall into the "minimum charge" territory which is often £10 - £12 anyway.

The windows are big and although I have had them all fitted with tilt and turn the 4 windows overlooking the high street have to be done from the outside.  I have in the interim had a chat with him and he admits water is an issue as he tries to do all three of our flats (12 large windows in total ) and the 7 shops with one small trolley.  He has told me that he is in the process of getting a slightly larger one so we will see.

[G Griffin]

If you sack him he'll have more water to do the others properly.

[The Jester of Wibbly]

It would not take him long to head back to his vehicle to re fill his trolly.  Not your problem to be honest.

[AuRavelling79]

If you sack him he'll have more water to do the others properly.

 

[dazmond]

Hi Kev - just noticed this thread - been away on holibobs living the high life in my 24 year old caravan. 

You've got a lot from the guys above to think on. But forgive me if I missed it - you said you were having tilt and turn windows fitted and you "only" have three of them?

Can you not do them from the insides now?

If I have missed something and you still want them cleaned externally I would say ...

Most other window cleaners that don't do shops/high streets as a niche will not be interested. Those that do will realise yours is a one off in amongst another window cleaner's work and realise there is little room for expansion. If you were able to get the other flat owners across to a new window cleaner at £40, then would it be worth it to him?

Probably not as he will have the issue of water dripping on shops below and either feel the obligation to clean theirs or feel the wrath when he says "not my problem". Or do them at a time when they aren't about to notice.

All in all I would do them from the inside if not then talk to the other flat owners and ask their view. If you are getting brand new UPVC frames then buttonhole the windy and ask "innocently" whether the new frames get done at the same time as the glass (if your old ones were wood or aluminium he may have avoided doing them for "milk" runs and drips)  as you want everything kept up to scratch.

He will feel a little embarrassed if he has been avoiding top frames and assure you that they will be included as UPVC doesn't cause the same issues as the old non UPVC ones.

The price in my opinion is at the upper end of "OK" but 3 windows will always fall into the "minimum charge" territory which is often £10 - £12 anyway.

The windows are big and although I have had them all fitted with tilt and turn the 4 windows overlooking the high street have to be done from the outside.  I have in the interim had a chat with him and he admits water is an issue as he tries to do all three of our flats (12 large windows in total ) and the 7 shops with one small trolley.  He has told me that he is in the process of getting a slightly larger one so we will see.

told you.......

[AuRavelling79]

With my caravan head on - you can buy a thing called an aquaroll in 25L or 40L sizes which as you would think lets you roll the water to the point of use very easily.

I would think they would be very useful for backpack and trolley users where you know you will have to "go back for more."

I reckon a clever geezer could adapt one as a form of trolley by using a drop in "Whale" type submersible pump. (as used on caravans)

[dazmond]

if the window cleaner had any common sense then he d drop  a couple of 25L barrels off near the work before he parks up so he doesnt run out if he cant be arsed going back to the van for more water....

TBH its a lame excuse IMO......

[G Griffin]

if the window cleaner had any common sense then he d drop  a couple of 25L barrels off near the work before he parks up so he doesnt run out if he cant be arsed going back to the van for more water....

TBH its a lame excuse IMO......

I agree, Daz; and he admitted that it could be an issue. That tells me that he's not that bothered. 
And he could have tradded the shop windows if it was that much of an issue.

[John Mart]

With my caravan head on - you can buy a thing called an aquaroll in 25L or 40L sizes which as you would think lets you roll the water to the point of use very easily.

I would think they would be very useful for backpack and trolley users where you know you will have to "go back for more."

I reckon a clever geezer could adapt one as a form of trolley by using a drop in "Whale" type submersible pump. (as used on caravans)

A clever geezer would say sod that and look for more profitable work. Who honestly that is busy would fart around with a trolley at 7am to do three flats?

[KS Cleaning]

With my caravan head on - you can buy a thing called an aquaroll in 25L or 40L sizes which as you would think lets you roll the water to the point of use very easily.

I would think they would be very useful for backpack and trolley users where you know you will have to "go back for more."

I reckon a clever geezer could adapt one as a form of trolley by using a drop in "Whale" type submersible pump. (as used on caravans)

A clever geezer would say sod that and look for more profitable work. Who honestly that is busy would fart around with a trolley at 7am to do three flats?

A clever geezer would read all the posts on this thread and see that not only does the window cleaner do three flats, he does the shops as well. The OP also reckons the window cleaner does £100 in under an hour, pretty profitable in anybody’s book and most people would happily fart around for that kind of money.

[John Mart]

With my caravan head on - you can buy a thing called an aquaroll in 25L or 40L sizes which as you would think lets you roll the water to the point of use very easily.

I would think they would be very useful for backpack and trolley users where you know you will have to "go back for more."

I reckon a clever geezer could adapt one as a form of trolley by using a drop in "Whale" type submersible pump. (as used on caravans)

A clever geezer would say sod that and look for more profitable work. Who honestly that is busy would fart around with a trolley at 7am to do three flats?

A clever geezer would read all the posts on this thread and see that not only does the window cleaner do three flats, he does the shops as well. The OP also reckons the window cleaner does £100 in under an hour, pretty profitable in anybody’s book and most people would happily fart around for that kind of money.

With the same trolley load of water? Guessing he blades the shops which makes the flats a faff. The OP has no idea what the guy’s making an hour. The fact is it’s a pain in the arse job and most wouldn’t bother unless they needed the work.  Certainly who wants to roll a barrel of water to clean three flats? 

[Missing Link]

A clever geezer would say sod that and look for more profitable work. Who honestly that is busy would fart around with a trolley at 7am to do three flats?

I agree.  And the potential hassle from an ungrateful customer to boot. 

I picked up a real live palace on Friday.  Originally one of three palaces, but this is the only one left out of the group.  Parts of it are 700 years old.

It's just been through a refurbishment in preparation for posh weddings and hotel use.

I just felt the need to share that.

[John Mart]

A clever geezer would say sod that and look for more profitable work. Who honestly that is busy would fart around with a trolley at 7am to do three flats?

I agree.  And the potential hassle from an ungrateful customer to boot. 

I picked up a real live palace on Friday.  Originally one of three palaces, but this is the only one left out of the group.  Parts of it are 700 years old.

It's just been through a refurbishment in preparation for posh weddings and hotel use.

I just felt the need to share that.

Disclosure agreements prevent me telling you the palaces I clean.   

[Kev Martin]

quote author=Whey_Aye_Banzai link=topic=212809.msg1907852#msg1907852 date=1530456902]

A clever geezer would say sod that and look for more profitable work. Who honestly that is busy would fart around with a trolley at 7am to do three flats?

I agree.  And the potential hassle from an ungrateful customer to boot. 

I picked up a real live palace on Friday.  Originally one of three palaces, but this is the only one left out of the group.  Parts of it are 700 years old.

It's just been through a refurbishment in preparation for posh weddings and hotel use.

I just felt the need to share that.
[/quote]

You have no worries there Tosh!  There isn’t a chance I would never employ a Half Jap / Half Geordy Kebab Loving Window Licking Ex Scaley who lives in Chepstow for any job even if you were free