[paul mather]

I am a window cleaner of about 15 years and am seriously considering investing in a wfp system. Anyone out there bought one and not got on with it and gone back to their ladders? What are the biggest teething probs and how did you overcome them?

[jeff1]

Interesting thread paul, I to will be waching the reply's

[Trevor Knight]

Certainly if you search previous posts you will see endless debates about what is and isn't good about WFP.

From a personal experience. I purchased a DIY kit from ebay and used it as a side line to Traditional.

The results to start with were terrible and my belief in the systems was non existent. I kept it in the van for about 6 months and used it every now and then, every day looking at it thinking what a waste of money and how stupid I was for buying it. Getting taken in by the hype.

Anyway, I decided to clean an area of domestic houses that are very "well to do" people and see the results. I cleaned them for free the first time as I was frightened what the results would be like. They were amazed how clean the windows were and really pleased and most offered to pay for the first clean, not that I accepted.

From that day onwards, I spent time understanding WFP, looked at how to improve my system and get the best results from it.

Now, I am just about to convert my last traditional vehicle over to WFP so that all our vans operate WFP.

I would never go back to traditional, not that I am saying traditional is bad becuase I have done this method for 15 years, however, I have learn't how to use the WFP system to its maximum and find the benefits outweigh the pitfalls 100/1

This is purely a personal opinion and I am sure there are just as many trad cleaners who feel they are doing it the best way for themselves.

Its personal opinion and what suits your clientel the best.

Best wishes,

Trev

[Roy Harding]

Hi  Paul

I'm in my 21st year of window cleaning, having 18yrs traditonal experence and 3 years wfp.

I was very concerned about going over to wfp as most people are.

With questions like will it do  a top job?

Can you do the same amount in a day?

The answer is yes, but! its all down to the person, I have seen some  local window cleanners using a top hot water system and the job was terrible. Take time and wash all frames and windows at least twice or three times on first cleans.

Most of my houses are over £30 and I was scared of loosing jobs that would be hard to replace but in three years have not lost one. And have had one complaint in that time and that was my son and it was corrected before we left.

I have allways had someone work wiith me, but they moved on after 8yrs to set up there own bussines. I had so much work I gave a lot away, shorty after went wfp and in the first year did £18,000 more turnover than two of us had done the year before.

The down  side is it does cost more to  run, you need to carry spares conectors break. I have a few spare pumps as I had on go wrong and it was 3 days before the replacement arrived.

The hoses catch in everything it can, and  the first few weeks you will as Trevor hate it, and think what a waste of monney. But as your abillty grows and you do the second cleans it comes into its own.

It however is a wfp not a magic wand, and you will still at times need the skill of traditional window cleaning.

Also take time to explain it to your customers several cleans in advance.

I did tell mine that I had to let a load of customers go as I could not clean everyone since dave left, and they all said dont drop  me will you. Then I told them that I was going over to wfp and it I hoped  would speed things up. I never lost one job.

Roy

[matt]

i have read of 1 person who has gone back to ladders on here (cannot remmber his name)

my advice is to go down the DIY route, then you are only spending 500 quid of your money and not more than double that

http://d.co.uk

was set up to help in the goal, if you check out the forum, it has most of the questions and answers (allready asked )

i dont think any1 has any doublt that WFP does the job

[paul mather]

Has anyone else got any opinions?

[chris@c.m.s]

Ok well Im in the process of changing over my customers and if it wasnt for everyone saying they hated it at first then I woud definatly be looking at giving up with it, in fact tomorrow is possibly make or break for the pole, I know it can do the job but it can also be a pain to learn I have taken in lots of bits of info from the forum and it has helped no end I havent had a complaint so far, but going round all my customers and converting them to wfp has been a pain, also the fact that I only have a car and have to remove everything after my days work doesnt help either, I had a nightmare job with my backpack and pole yesterday access was over a wall and it was a first wfp clean it took me 1 1/2 hours for a 30 min job just about everything went wrong including an airlock, finished the bottoms traditional after nearly launching the wfp, calmed down a little then thought I had better try again over the road, the customer had already had the changover letter,  I looked at the pole and I must have brushed against the sofitts because the brush was covered in tiny paint flakes  if I have many more jobs like that its either ditch wfp or pack it all in, at the moment I dont enjoy my work I did when I was traditional

[Grafters Cleaning Services]

changed over to wfp 14 months ago, if used correctly yes it is the best thing sinced sliced bread.
Jay

[D.Salkeld_Ltd]

Paul,

Interesting post.

I have been WFP for 3 months now and there have been times I could have thrown the bloody thing in the pit!!

2 mian reasons for this

1.  I had to learn the SKILL of using it

and

2.  A few breakdowns!

1.  Learning to use it.

WFP is not a magic wand.  You have to learn the skill of using it.  I find the problems occur when you don't wash the frames properly.  Two choices:
1.  Do not touch the frames
2. Thoroughly wash and rince both frame and glass.
2 is OK untill you come across powdery paintwork!! It runs all over the glass.
1 requires skilfull brush work!
Thursday I recieved a Swivel brush from Gaz - it made 1 a dammed site easier!
I did a large old house today and didn't touch the frames - came up a treat!

2.  A few Breakdowns

1.  The RO filter system leaked - Cleantech sent out a spare immediatley!
2.  The battery failed on the Backpack - Turned out it was the charger - bought a new charger from Maplins and a Volt meter to test them with

I am now running smoothly and wouldn't go back to ladders.  But If I knew the truoble I had setting up before I set up I probably would have stayed with the ladders.

WFP IS NOT EASY TO MASTER.  It takes time and practice to get it right!

David

[AuRavelling79]

It has taken me fifteen months to change over from all ladder work to all wfp.
(One quarter of my round is commercial in the £25 - £200 range the rest residential in the £8 - £30 range)

I started with a trolley system in my estate car from Peter Fogwill.

Before going pole every customer received an explanation flyer first.

First it was my commercial contracts and schools that went to pole in March/April 2005.

Then high/awkward two-storey residential throughout summer of 2005.

Then I got a backpack and 30m hose two months ago and everything except an estate of terraced houses and some old georgian properties went to wfp.

Earlier this month I got 100m of microbore on a decent reel with brass couplings and changed the last estate over to wfp.

Last week I put a letter through my four final trad. properties (old leaky/flaky windowed georgian windows and doors) saying WAHD had finally forced my hand but that I would still do the bottoms of their properties trad. I lost one who had had some monkey with a wfp before me who squirted water through the gaps on her 200 yr old front door soaking her carpet! She refused despite my offer of doing all downstairs trad. Ho-hum £20 out of £2500 lost - I can live with that!

The trolley is redundant and the back pack is there if I can't/don't want to do windows with my 100m of hose.

I will get a van (probably a Scudo/Expert/Despatch) with a 400/650L tank but I still use my estate car with 250litres on board for the time being. (I like the air-con in the summer!)

I do run out of water after about six hours tho' and either go home for a refill or if I'm more than five miles from home and need to eke out the water I just do the last hour or two by doing the upstairs with the pole and GG4 and blade for the downstairs.

All is good!

[Trevor Knight]

I dont enjoy my work I did when I was traditional

Hi Chris,

If this is the case then I would go back to Traditional for the majority of your work and gradually hand pick say 1 or 2 days a month when you pole the same customers.

That way you will continue to enjoy your work and stay in the business and also gradually gain confidence with your WFP and learn how to get on better with it.

DONT let this get you down Chris. I had days when I just wanted to kill the guy I brought this WFP from as I thought I have chucked £2k down the drain.

I soldiered on and now have 2, soon to be 3 vans on the road now, ALL WFP.

It takes time and a lot of perseverance, the results will come, you just have to believe in the product and keep practising.

Go back to traditional and gradually change over, give yourself a time scale, say 10 customers a month, I will change to WFP.

Small and often is a lot easier than Immediately and Now !!

Keep smiling and don't give up.

Best wishes,

Trev

p.s. what yous location, what about a day out with a WFP to get some hands on tips?

[Londoner]

I have been on WFP for a few months now. It is definitily better than trad but there is a lot to learn in the early days.

My advice is take things one step at a time. get yourself properly sorted out before you start.
Also change your customers over in stages. Don't  make the mistake of being over keen.

Another thing, you use a totally different set of muscles with WFP and you need time to adjust. When I first started I ached all over.

[Paul Coleman]

Ok well Im in the process of changing over my customers and if it wasnt for everyone saying they hated it at first then I woud definatly be looking at giving up with it, in fact tomorrow is possibly make or break for the pole, I know it can do the job but it can also be a pain to learn I have taken in lots of bits of info from the forum and it has helped no end I havent had a complaint so far, but going round all my customers and converting them to wfp has been a pain, also the fact that I only have a car and have to remove everything after my days work doesnt help either, I had a nightmare job with my backpack and pole yesterday access was over a wall and it was a first wfp clean it took me 1 1/2 hours for a 30 min job just about everything went wrong including an airlock, finished the bottoms traditional after nearly launching the wfp, calmed down a little then thought I had better try again over the road, the customer had already had the changover letter,  I looked at the pole and I must have brushed against the sofitts because the brush was covered in tiny paint flakes  if I have many more jobs like that its either ditch wfp or pack it all in, at the moment I dont enjoy my work I did when I was traditional

Chris.  I stopped taking on jobs where they expected me to climb a wall or a gate some years ago - even when I was working trad.  You may find that you need to tinker a bit with what jobs you do or do not take on.  I do have a couple of jobs where I need to handle the ladder over garage roofs.  I don't mess about pulling the WFP equipment after me.  I just do the back the trad way either on a ladder or with a non water fed pole.  Another job where I am expected to go over a roof has decking on the other side.  They have a gate that they leave padlocked (wasn't like that when I started there} and the side alley by the gate is too cluttered to walk down.  I will have to drop this job because decking can be dangerous to place a ladder on as there is no way I can put a safety device underneath from the flat roof.
What I am saying is that I found the awkward bit was re-learning my round.  It was a bit like when I first started window cleaning in the first place.  Maybe seek out jobs that are more suitable for WFP and start passing on/dropping those that aren't?  I know it's a pain and I had awful problems at first too.  It has taken me a while to adapt as well.  I don't know how your finances are but having a van would clearly be a great help as you wouldn't need to unload at night.  Personally, I'm glad I went straight in with van mount and trolley even though I do owe a lot of money for them.  I am just starting to see the benefit of this after eight months on WFP.

[Paul Coleman]

I dont enjoy my work I did when I was traditional

Hi Chris,

If this is the case then I would go back to Traditional for the majority of your work and gradually hand pick say 1 or 2 days a month when you pole the same customers.

That way you will continue to enjoy your work and stay in the business and also gradually gain confidence with your WFP and learn how to get on better with it.

DONT let this get you down Chris. I had days when I just wanted to kill the guy I brought this WFP from as I thought I have chucked £2k down the drain.

I soldiered on and now have 2, soon to be 3 vans on the road now, ALL WFP.

It takes time and a lot of perseverance, the results will come, you just have to believe in the product and keep practising.

Go back to traditional and gradually change over, give yourself a time scale, say 10 customers a month, I will change to WFP.

Small and often is a lot easier than Immediately and Now !!

Keep smiling and don't give up.

Best wishes,

Trev

p.s. what yous location, what about a day out with a WFP to get some hands on tips?

Trevor raises an interesting point to Chris.  I didn't switch every job over in one go. I switched about a quarter or a third of the business over at a time.  Also, I am not taking on any more work where I need to go over a flat roof and down the other side.  I will still take work where I need to go onto a flat roof but I make sure I price for the extra hassle now.
You're not too far from me.  If you want to spend a day or part day with me I'm up for it.  Just to remind you, we have met before.  I was at the drought order application hearing in Worthing.

[chris@c.m.s]

 Thanks for your comments and encouragement guys, I actually had a much better day with it today I also had my first 2nd Wfp clean I think that helped me to realize how easy things will be when I get the first cleans out of the way, I think part of my problem is I want the windows perfect from the first clean and I’m expecting more from myself than the customers do, I will be changing over slowly from now on and the nightmare job I had can now be scheduled for a Friday when the customer is in, I think there will definitely be jobs I will have to drop but they will soon be replaced, my round like most of yours is ever increasing,  hopefully a van will soon be an option also a move may be on the cards as well, I hate carrying the water down the stairs, I will keep going  I just had one of those days Thursday
Paul the Shiner thanks for the offer and I may very well be tempted to take you up on that if I don’t get the hang of things soon, perhaps one eve a few of us from the area could meet for some drinks with perhaps Ross and Abacus being the lucky ones travel wise,  don’t want any of those skirt wearing sort of pubs though, anyway thanks again guys.

[Londoner]

Chris, you mention a good point about wanting everything to be right in first cleans.
One of the problems is knowing when to stop cleaning the window.
Has anyone else found this. You just scrub away, specially on first cleans, and its like you are afraid to stop.

[master cleaner]

hi Chris
i have been wfp for the last 8 months , and for the first month i thought it was the biggest mistake of my life , the first week i wasnt using enough water about 100ltrs a day on first cleans the result was spots spots spots after a month people started telling me how happy they were with it ,something they hadnt done for the last 12 yrs when i was trad. now i have got about 400 customers and have only got 1 customer who isnt happy but if she didnt have anything to complain about well i think you get the point  stick with it and i assure you you will never regret it , i sold a round that needed ladders and now dont even carry ladders on the van anymore.

if you need any help at all dont hesitate to ask

gary

[welmac]

I WENT WFP ABOUT 5YRS AGO. WHAT A NIGHTMARE WE HAD!!!!!!!

WE BOUGHT A SYSTEM FROM AN ENGINEER WHO HAD THOUGHT HE HAD COME UP WITH A WAY OF MAKING PURE WATER WITHOUT PUTTING IT THROUGH AN RO FILTER SYSTEM. THE SYSTEM WAS PRETTY WELL MADE AND THOUGHT OUT.......BUT IT DIDNT MAKE CLEAN WATER.

BASICALLY TO CUT A LONG STORY SHORT WE ENDED UP MAKING ONE THAT WORKED OURSELVES, AS IT WAS VERY HARD TO GET ANY KIND OF HELP FROM COMPANIES UNLESS WE WERE PREPARED TO SHELL OUT THE BEST PART OF 10GRAND FOR THEIR SYSTEMS.

AFTER USING A SYSTEM THAT WORKS FOR THE BEST PART OF 4YRS NOW, I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO LADDERS. OUT OF ALL THE CUSTOMERS I HAVE SUPPLIED TO I CAN GENUINLY SAY THAT ALL OF THEM ARE HAPPY WITH THESE SYSTEMS AND HAVE SAID THEY WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO TRADITIONAL EITHER.

MY ADVICE IS JUST MAKE SURE YOU GET/MAKE A GOOD SYSTEM THAT IS GOING TO WORK FROM THE START. ITS JUST NOT WORTH TRYING TO DO THINGS ON THE CHEAP, IF IN THE LONG RUN IT AINT GUNNA WORK RIGHT OR LAST THAT WELL!!!

HOPE THIS HELPS, AND HOPE ALL GOES WELL IF YOU DECIDE TO TAKE IT UP! 

WELMAC - GARY

[JohnL]

Welmac

 - turn off your caps lock, its classed as shouting and also looks awful 

JohnL

[windows_chepstow]

I also had my first 2nd Wfp clean I think that helped me to realize how easy things will be when I get the first cleans out of the way,

Chris,

I know where you're comming from.  I found the first cleans tedious and I was mega fussy. 

Even after the fifth or six clean I was fannying about and rinsing three times; a poster here gave me a digging for this mind; and I took heed.

It took seven months for me to get the confidence to just 'go for it' and it was only after doing a super-quick clean of my own house (after being nagged at from Wor Lass) to realise how quick and how good the results can be.

Nine-months into WFP I think it's great; we still trad the 'bottoms' mostly, but that's because I work with Wor Lass and at just eight-and-a-half-stone, she just hasn't got the stregnth to lug a backpack around.

We're probably earning - comfortably - around 20 to 30 percent more than we did last year; even just by using an entry level backpack.

Stick at it; you'll find the best, easiest and quickest way to work over a number of months.

[Londoner]

I agree with Tosh about fannying around. If you are a bit over fussy then WFP can drive you mad. With trad you get to the bottom of the widow and stop.

With WFP you go back and give it a bit more, and a bit more and never know when enough is enough.

[Paul Coleman]

I'm inclined to think that sliced bread is the best thing since WFP 

[chris@c.m.s]

 Thanks for all your advice guys I have changed my way of going about things now, If I lose a customer so be it, I have definitely found that the wfp attracts a lot of attention from neighbors and passers by, and I’m getting busier by the week so like Tosh has said "I'm just going for it" , Its great to have so many peoples experience to call upon and I'm quite sure after a few months I'll be praising wfp with the rest of you  

[Morph]

I'm inclined to think since WFP 

[Paul Coleman]

Thanks for all your advice guys I have changed my way of going about things now, If I lose a customer so be it, I have definitely found that the wfp attracts a lot of attention from neighbors and passers by, and I’m getting busier by the week so like Tosh has said "I'm just going for it" , Its great to have so many peoples experience to call upon and I'm quite sure after a few months I'll be praising wfp with the rest of you  

In a few days time, I'm going to run out of work for a few days because I am now getting through it faster with WFP.  It's taken a while to get to that point.  I did so much work today that I ran out of water - though I didn't start with a full tank.  Luckily, I had about 20 litres in my trolley so I plugged into that and used it as stopgap van mount to finish the last job.  I seem to be getting on a roll with WFP at last.  It's been a long time coming.  I'm so glad I persevered because I felt like chucking it in during the first few months.

[Morph]

I think I've broken my back!

[welmac]

Welmac

 - turn off your caps lock, its classed as shouting and also looks awful 

JohnL

SORRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

wasnt done on purpose!

[JohnL]