Employing staff

« **on:** July 05, 2007, 08:48:34 pm »

Hi all,

Our business has reached the stage where we will need to take on extra staff if we get any more work. There are only two of us in the business and we run the business together and do all the cleans.

In just three months, we have virtually filled our books and now need to start thinking where we go next. This has all come a little quicker than we thought and to be honest, we aren't really prepared for employing people yet.

We don't want to turn work down, so we have got to start seriously thinking about taking on someone. Where do we start? Any advice would be welcomed.

ALAN

« **Reply #1 on:** July 05, 2007, 10:15:58 pm »

Hi Alan
When my company got in that position I looked towards family and friends first to see if any of them were interested in joining the comapny. At least the trust issue should not come into play.
Good luck
Karl

« **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2007, 12:42:25 am »

DG

no, it isnt crap about using self-employed people, my accountant was quite clear about this - apparently to be self-employed the self-employed person has to be able to prove that they dont just work for one person, they have to work for at least two. So, you could use me as a self-employed worker as i am able to show that i also invoice other clients. You'd be a client as far as my records go.

When the self-employed person works only for you then you have to be the employer and they the employee. I've thought this was the way to go for me but at present i'm sticking to working on my own.

Sorry if you know this all already.

Bertie

« **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2007, 02:38:34 pm »

well my accountant also said that it was fine to employ staff as self employed but I didnt know much about employment law so I rang up inland revenue to ask could I have some staff as self employed and some as employed on books.As like u say some girls work for agencies self employed also. It all frazzles my brain!!!
Anway the tax got an assessor to call me and guess what he decided that yes my staff would all have to be employed on books.I thought this was silly as the ones which i wanted to work as self employed would only be doing the odd shift once in a blue moon to cover sickness etc as this is the hours they decided they would work. The inland revenue were very snotty actually at this point and despite these staff fitting all criteria for self employed they still insisted they would have to be employed on my books, do the work and I would have to send them a p45 if they do no further work in 3 months time!!!!
Apparently you can't sub contract cleaning either.Thew law is all pretty complicated on it.In the end I just took the advice from tax and put all workers on books and to be honest it has simplified things this way.

« **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2007, 03:13:12 pm »

Just bite the bullet and employ!

I wouldn't necessarily take the advice of using family and friends, they will/may take a lend, and if they are not up to scratch how do you get rid of them?

All in all it causes too much friction, advertise and take on people who are not associated with you, it keeps the separation between employer and employee easier.

« **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2007, 08:01:33 pm »

[quote
Apparently you can't sub contract cleaning either.Thew law is all pretty complicated on it.In the end I just took the advice from tax and put all workers on books and to be honest it has simplified things this way.

Quote

DG, what do you mean you can't subcontract cleaning? Hope you dont mind my asking, i'm just not sure what you mean.

Lovin' this site

Bertie

« **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2007, 08:14:13 pm »

when i started my domestic cleaning business 4 years ago I sought legal advice from an employment solicitor and the law states that if you have a cleaner working for your client on the same day for the same hours each week...in other words on a regular basis...that cleaner is your employee and as such you are liable for providing employers liability insurance for that person, tax and NI contribution are to be should that employee be liable

The laws the law...theres no getting around it......however, if the person working for you is not liable to pay tax or NI conts then they do not need to be registered as an employee with the Inland Revenue

« **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2007, 08:24:06 pm »

Jan, fronm your website i liked your comments about your staff not being uniformed

My friend Mary, who i've known for years and was my 2nd ever client, she got Molly Maids round for a quote. Mary said "the lady stressed how the maids are all smartly uniformed...what do i care? I'm at work, i never see them, i wouldnt care if they arrived naked".

I've never forgotten that

Bertie

« **Reply #8 on:** July 06, 2007, 09:46:41 pm »

hi bertie

I wasn't actually sure what this women at inland was on about. Get told a different thing every time I ring for advice!
Apparently she said that you can't sub contract ie: a cleaning company cant subcontract another company to do work and provide it as part of their service ie:sub contracting carpet washers etc ???It goes on all time though. I didn't understand or necessarily believe this either.Like I say tons of conflicting advice from inland rev and at end of day they are all sat in a call center so no different from the infuriating service from any other call center really!
To be honest starting off it won't cos you the earth to employ staff.Insurance is relatively cheap for less than 5 staff, you also get round having to provide a pension etc and all you really have to worry is sickness,maternity and holiday pay but if they work less than 16 hrs or if they don't qualify to make ni contribuitions you only have to worry about hols pay and cover,
My advice get a good accountant and business adviser, saves so much hassle and worth every penny.My accountant is on speed dial LOL!

« **Reply #9 on:** July 06, 2007, 10:00:59 pm »

Hi DG

I've done more call centre work than i care to think of (and called even more) in my working years, so i know what you are talking about...

Yes, i'm not surprised you got conflicting info. I can't understand why a cleaining company can't subcontract (doesnt sound right to me?) but then i was told (informally) by both my accountant and a client who herself is self-employed, that because the use of sub-contracting in our business would be minimal (if at all) if would be better to just not say anything anyway...in other words just pay the bill of the subbie etc. yourself type-thing. If that makes sense?

Sounds to me like IR dont know what they are on about so think it's easier to just say "employ them, its LAW!!!" lololol. Pah! No, but i can see why you decided to run with that.

Like i say, my accountant said that they main rule of self employment is that you work for a minimum of two people, which, in itself, must be easy to prove as you only really need a person to say "Yes, i give them money to do a job now and then" etc if ever they were asked. Not sure how the information about doing same hours on same day per week for same person makes you an employee because -to take that to a logical conclusion- that would make most of my clients my employer because i go to 80% on the same day and time for the same amount of time every time i go...

I think some people on these helplines make it up as they go along. Anyway, the more i think of it the more i think i will stay on my own

Bertie

« **Reply #10 on:** July 06, 2007, 10:05:44 pm »

you're missing the point Bertie...if YOU provide your client with a cleaner on a regular basis, that cleaner is YOUR employee......i didn't feel the need to argue the point with the employment law solicitor as I guessed that as he was the experienced professional, he knew what he was talking about. and I have also had this confirmed by a number of other business owners on this forum in the past who have been told the same thing :

« **Reply #11 on:** July 06, 2007, 10:15:44 pm »

well fair enough, certainly i'm not looking to fall out with anyone. I'm just saying that it conflicts with advice i was given, but that doesnt make me right of course.

Hugs!

Bertie

« **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2007, 10:25:34 pm »

mind you i wouldnt believe anything the Inland Revenue told me, hence i made sure i rang a number of times and spoke to lots of different people to ensure that i didnt need to register with the IR anyone i employed as an employee. i mean the IR are government employees and we all know how useless they all are

« **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2007, 11:37:11 pm »

well the inland revenue made this point

I instructed the workers on what work needed doing
I provided a uniform
I provided cleaning equipment
I asked for them to provide the service, not giving them option send someone in their place

all these things make my workers staff and entitled to the rights of staff. I imagined it to be a massive hassle but it was simple and I'm glad I did it. Looking back it seems more hassle to have self employed workers!!

« **Reply #14 on:** July 07, 2007, 03:11:32 am »

Yes, that was the difference, i recall my accountant telling me that anyone who i hired as self-employed had to bring their own stuff to the job (I wasnt to provide anything in theory).

In your case you are giving the workers all they need to work and in Jan's case it is (as far as i can see) a labour-only type of job so therefore difficult to say the staff were self-employed.

Bertie

« **Reply #15 on:** July 07, 2007, 08:33:40 am »

there will always be gray areas with self employed but the tax are very keen on basically making everyone an employee. Like I say it seems daunting at first but they have workshops and cd roms which get you started and are very helpul.

« **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2007, 09:38:03 am »

When it comes to sub contracting it is perfectly legal to do it. However they need to be bonafied sub contractors, so you have to be insured and the sub contractor has to hold the same amount or a higher insurance. You must also check their H&S and method statements etc as if there is an accident you may well be liable. That's how many cleaning companies get in window cleaners etc.

Don't be worried about employing staff, I now have 20 on my books and its pretty uncomplicated, the only hassle I get is when they phone in sick half hour before they are due into work! If you are going to expand and employ in the commercial department go for sites where you need four or more cleaners, if one is off the others can usually cope for one or two cleans.

Fox

« **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2007, 03:57:36 pm »

congrats on your 666 post fox!! lol

« **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2007, 10:50:12 pm »

I employ 18 cleaners and it works very well, I have a good team, however what does really annoy me, is when I see an ad for cleaners at £8.00 per hour cash in hand, when I phone to find out more its a Franchise, and the client pays the cleaner cash, how can this be, when I do everything that the law and the tax man tells me to? any comments

« **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:04:21 pm »

This is very common, i've seen many people advertising this. I can only conclude that the staff MUST be self employed, i see no other way?

This is when the client pays the agencey fee by Direct Debt and the cleaner cash, yes?

I wondered too.

Bertie

« **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:09:54 pm »

I don't see why anyone would want to do that!
ASgencies to me conjures up the image that they will send anyone in to cover the job,Everyone knows its a sales environment and commission based. Plus who would want to pay a fee to agency and then £8ph cleaner.
The agencies terms and conditions make me laugh, they say in no uncertain terms that they will not be responsible for anything going wrong.
I think cleaning company's are much better bet, if u hire in a cleaner one on one or through a professional cleaning company then you know the book stops with the manager.
agencies for cleaning always struck me as a mugs game.

« **Reply #21 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:19:19 pm »

DG

Round here its usually like £8.50 per hour all-in, then you have to pay like £6 per hour cash to the cleaner and the rest by D/D to the agency, I can think of many ways why this would be better for the agency

like this: http://www.bellecasa.co.uk/domestic/search_results.asp

i dont know how they split the fee or how you pay etc.

I suppose agency is ok if you only want the labour. My clients -within reason- want to off-load the entire responsibility of cleaning upon my good self. They couldnt do that with an agency.

Bertie

bertie

« **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2007, 11:31:05 pm »

here we go, see this:

http://www.mandhhelpers.co.uk/faq.php?c=2

Click on how to pay cleaner

Bertie

« **Reply #23 on:** July 17, 2007, 01:13:10 am »

http://www.timeforyoultd-online.co.uk/home.php?id=e

There is a whole section on this page about the cleaners being self employed.

I have never seen such a patronising website nor one that contained as much drivel as this.

Stephen

« **Reply #24 on:** July 17, 2007, 07:20:08 am »

plus the cleaners are self employed so the agency gets around the whole hassle of holiday pay/benefits and tax and ni contributions!They should be investigated.

« **Reply #25 on:** July 17, 2007, 09:22:40 am »

DG

The £8.50 is including the agencey fee, the cleaners get £5.50....

BTW this is a local website for a NATIONAL franchise, yes, there's moe of 'em....

Stephen

« **Reply #26 on:** July 17, 2007, 11:31:21 pm »

And another thing, the agency fee includes VAT so the company must be making a small fourtune in agency fees if they've hit the VAT threshold...

Stephen