DASERVICES

Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« on: August 18, 2006, 03:47:38 pm »

  How many times have I heard on this forum, " went to quote for a job and
  customer did not want to use wfp do to bad results"

  Today I have seen the worst clean in my life, heard stories from you guys
  in the past but after what I have seen today is definately bringing WFP a
  bad name.

  Past my local University yesterday and saw a well known Scottish window
  cleaning company with an Ioncis system ( not a slating Ionics ). The company
  in question I will not name but does share the same name as a Scottish Ferry ;)

  Watched the guy for a short period of time and he was definately struggling to
  to get the knack of the pole. I know I should have gone and given him advise
  but I was pushed for time.

  When I went to have a inquistive look and was gobsmacked at what I saw.
  There are around 40 large windows which are part of a walk way over the
  road. I wouldn't have minded if there was an odd run here and there but each
  window had runs larger than the Niagara Falls. The frames are wooden and
  are of good standard, looking at them there was stll a lot of dirt deposits
  on the top of the glass.

  I for one would always check my work but this I would have been ashamed to
  even ask money for.

  The question here is who is to blame in giving WFP a bad name, I have 2
  opinions on this which I have stated in the past.

  1) The big companies who sell WFP need to offer an on hands training coarse
       when selling their products. Not the class instruction one that Ionics do but
       going round with the customer for a couple of days until they are confident
       in what they are doing.

      My feeling is they are willing to sell the product but as soon as cash is
     exchanged hands that's the end of the story. I have also heard on horror
    stories on some company's which when asked about the work method of WFP
    tell their customers 'they only sell the product and they are not window
    cleaners ???

    However this is not a dig at all company's as some offer very good advise
    which I have been very grateful for as well as you guys on this forum.

    For paying £k's on a system I would expect how to operate it to my customer's
    satisfaction. If you go the DIY route then the owness falls upon yourself.

   2)  There are some window cleaning company's that are taking the mickey
         out of their customers in doing a bad job either they know they are doing it
         or are unaware about it. ( They have been given the hard sell about the
         product and not how to use it properly)

   This is and will definately have an impact on people investing in WFP as it
   is being given a bad name with standards as bad as this. It will make it
   harder for the folks who can use WFP with good results when trying to go
   for contracts.

  Who's fault is it here, is it about time we voiced our concerns to the major
  company's or formed our own training organisation.

  WFP is a good tool used in the trained hands.

  Your thoughts please, should I have a word with the cleaning company or
  speak to the University.

  Cheers
 
  Doug

eddie d

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2006, 04:10:05 pm »
perhaps it was a first clean .
ive cleaned a block of flats before now and when i had finished they looked like i had smeared dirt all over them.
this particular block took me about 4 cleans to get clean.
i still clean  a place that spots up a bit ,more or less every time i clean them.
poling is not easy and cant alwats be guarenteed .
i still struggle with it at times after over a years use .but it is my chosen method purly for safety.
if this concerns you i would contact the company doing the work.if  they are not bothered what you say i would contact the uni  and tell them your concerns.however the dirt may have been unavoidable(spelling)

alansavvi

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2006, 04:47:09 pm »
I think you should mind your own business, there are many factors, was the job finished? Wooden frames can be a right pain, what do you care if they are really that bad you could end up doing the business.

At the end of the day there will be cowboys in every trade, but we dont want wc going round complaining about others. I f they are really that bad they will lose the job, it is the trades evolution.

Why should suppliers train?, You dont have that with anything else, you dont buy a car and expect lessons!!!!!!!!

DASERVICES

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 04:55:17 pm »

  Caustic,

  Think you've read it wrong from where I'm coming from.

  Yes the job was finished, yes they have had the contract for a long time.

   The issue is come the next time the contract is open for tender, they will
   be anti WFP because of the results they have seen. This then makes it
   difficult for those that have invested in WFP to be turned away from jobs
   because the customer feels WFP is no good.

   I've invested in WFP so yes it does bother me if when canvassing, people
  will be anti WFP on past results.

  It's not WFP that's the root cause, so what do you think is the root cause.

  Cheers

  Doug

Fast 1 *

  • Posts: 667
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2006, 05:01:49 pm »
The geezer probably dont care.As long as he gets payed thats all that matters.Some people are like that
wildstyles

alansavvi

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2006, 05:47:39 pm »
Doug if i was you i would approach the building owners and tell them that you cant believe the standard of work there paying for, then do your best to get the job. It is a dog eat dog world.

geefree

  • Posts: 6180
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2006, 08:14:52 pm »
Caustic, that goes against everthing i am taught as a newbie regarding pinching other peoples work,.. reckon its possible the guy is struggling and very aware of the job in question not being up to scratch, .. i put all the effort i can into my work , although i have not too many customers yet, but i would be gutted if another window cleaner went to inspect my work after i had left the job, and tried to muscle in stating to the customer how bad i was as a window cleaner, because that is what you seem to be saying caustic, bet you would not like it if the tables were turned.

JohnL

  • Posts: 723
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2006, 08:36:27 pm »
I expect if you contacted the contracted companies boss and told him your feelings he may be upset about the standard of the finished. Is it his fault in not training his operators adequately, or more likely the operator is gven a time frame to do the work and blow the result.

On the other hand he might just tell you to ' go and do the other thing '   :)

JohnL
West Somerset. On the edge of the Quantocks and looking at The Exmoor National Park.

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2006, 08:48:02 pm »
I dont think its about being trained.

It is more to do with pride. I bought my system at considrable expense, I have never been on a course. I researched everything to do with wfp and have managed to do a good job from the word go.

A person as to understand how wfp works, if they dont they will struggle to do a quality job over a sustained period of time.

Like trad w/c many do a bad job through a lack of pride. Thats why many domestic customers treasure and pay more for a quality w/c. Thats why I can charge more for my work because of the poor standard many trad and wfp w/c do.


If we all cleaned to a very high standard I would have to start dropping my prices to compete.

Nel.

JM123

  • Posts: 2095
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2006, 09:08:09 pm »
I'd go in to the building and enquire about taking on the contract - give them a demo of the quality of work you do and go from there - chances are though that if you are trad they won't take you on due to H+S.
Live life in the fast lane.......if you break down you'll freewheel further

Ballymena N.I

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2006, 07:16:09 pm »
Doug,

Dont worry to much over it after all when the contract is up for tender and your invited to quote you specify that you use wfp and thats it explain why the pro's etc along with all your paperwork

then if they query wfp then offer a demonstration and quote h&s

then your quality workmanship will be proven and you may well win the contract

but thats my thoughts
rgds,
stuart
www.skypolesystems.com

sunshine windows

  • Posts: 2361
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2006, 09:14:20 am »
Quote
Doug if i was you i would approach the building owners and tell them that you cant believe the standard of work there paying for, then do your best to get the job. It is a dog eat dog world.   

Well at least we know where you're coming form Caustic.

Doug, you have a valid point with regards to the customer becoming anti-wfp.

I have experienced this attitude in both my domestic round and when quoting for commercial jobs.

Caustic does have a point regarding the training side of things though. When a manufacturer sells you the product, unless they specifically state that full training is given as part of the package, it's entirely your own responsibility to learn how to use the equipment.

I'm sure there are plenty of wfp training courses that you could sign up for but expect that most think, Oh sod it, i'll just save the money and teach myself.

Lance
To climb mount fuji you must first find a path
(Swindon, Wiltshire)

www.sunshinewindowcleaning.co.uk
www.sunshinesoftwashing.co.uk

P®oPole™

  • Posts: 985
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2006, 04:14:12 pm »
Doug if i was you i would approach the building owners and tell them that you cant believe the standard of work there paying for, then do your best to get the job. It is a dog eat dog world.

Thats a Bit of a dirty move Caustic, is that how you got alot of your commercial work? How did you get on at willseden, did you get it?

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2006, 07:03:19 pm »
Caustic isn't far wide of the mark in this instance, this isn't some single trader earning his crust, its a large company with many employees, if it is a University then it is a very big contract, personally as a single trader you can keep it!

But if the company isn't ensuring it's operatatives are properly trained then they deserve all they've got coming to them.

I would contact the Uni and tell them they shouldn't pay out until they have a job done to a reasonable standard, I wouldn't be after the job myself, but it should be the customer that puts in the complaint, not an outsider.

With a large company it is up to them to keep the standards of their operatives up to a competent level, they should ensure their workers are properly trained and should make regular checks on the work done.

I don't think it is the responsibility of the makers of WFP to make sure the equipment is used properly, that Ionics offer a training course is a credit to them, they do actually care about the industry, and it isn't just WFP courses they offer remember, they cover many aspects of the window cleaning industry, they do courses for trad too...or at least Craig Mowlem does.

As for those of us that self educate ourselves with a little help from forums such as these, then it is the individual that has to put the effort in.
Ultimately it isn't rocket science whether trad or WFP, but it is a skill that has to be developed, and as has already been said, some people just couldn't give a stuff, all they care about is getting the money in for as little effort as possible.

Customer not in?
Mmm, how many windows can I get away with out cleaning?...sod it, I'll just invoice them and won't do the job at all.
And yes, I've known of instances where that has happened.

Last week I cleaned the wrong house (should've done the one next door...I know, I know, but I had a senior moment :-\) it was a new account, I checked the windows over first...downstairs looked like the customer had done them herself, I could see the squeegee marks and poor effort at detailing, and the frames were stinking.
So washed it WFP, frames and windows spotless, massive difference...only to have a phone call that I ad done the wrong house, her own window cleaner had been round the week before :o

It was only a £9.00 account, so not a big loss, but she now has a spotless job done...it'll take months now for the frames to get in as bad a state as they were before...I've made the other window cleaner look good!!

This house had all UPVC windows and came up perfect, the house I wassupposed to do (and did the next day) had tired old wooden windows with oxidized paintwork :'( great :-\
I cleaned the windows and frames, milk running down the walls :-[
I finished the job, grabbed my squeegee out of the back of the van and was resigned to at least squeegeeing off the downstairs windows.....

But lo and behold they were drying out perfect ;D Every last one of them.

The point I am labouring to make here is that it is really down to the individual, I care aboutthe quality of the job I do, I understand how my WFP works, I also understood what I needed to do to at least achieve a good standard of work even though I was doing a job that is the achilles heel of WFP (oxidized frames) and I was also prepared to go around ensuring the job was done right even if it meant squeegeeing off all the downstairs windows.

If you give your customer this level of attention your reputation will travel before you, it will allow you to show a prospective customer that your WFP system really can do the job to as good a standard as the best of trad window cleaners.

It also means you will be able to charge more than others who don't care as much, people will pay for quality if they think they are getting value for money.

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

DASERVICES

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2006, 08:36:29 pm »

  Totally agree with all your statements but my angle on this having being in
  the manufacturing industry if I buy a piece of equipment for example a
  machine that places components on circuit boards. I would not look into
  operating this machine myself based on manuals, we would always have
  the manufacturers engineers on site. If i did not do this then the quality
  would be bad.

  Do not know if anyone would pay for this service but just an idea.

  But it seems every month that someone will come on here and talk about
  a customer that refuses WFP because of past experience. If I was in the
  market for selling WFP ( at high costs) this would worry me as the market
  reflection is turning negative due to bad workmanship. This could effect
  my sales in the future, just looking at a business point of veiw.

  I am in two open minds on this, be mr. nice guy and speaking to the cleaning
  company direct but may receive a backlash. Or be mr. nasty and give a demo
  to the uni on how it should actually work.

 Think I may be over sensitive on this, just hate people paying for something
 that is not up to standard. And as you know in this industry, mud sticks and it
 will not be the company but WFP that gets the blame. This then leaves a hard
 task for those of us that have invested  loads of money in WFP only to find
 we cannot win contracts due to the bad publicity of WFP.

  Just my concerns in this industry, sorry if it seems personal but that's my nature.
 
  Would love to hear the big boys comments on this as I see they come on but
  keep silent.

  Cheers

  Doug

alansavvi

Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2006, 08:01:43 am »
Interesting that most of you agree with me about apporaching the uni and resquesting to take over the contract.

I would find it hard to believe that most if not all have done this weather we were aware of it or not. Most work had a previous cleaner.

When you are canvassing and the manager tells you he has a cleaner already but then asks how much you would charge, would you price it up? What if you were cheaper and he asked you to take over the contract, would you refuse? I doubt it some how.

In this case if the job is being badly done on a consistent basis then the job has already been lost. Unless the uni really dont care about the standard, they will look elsewhere. So what is wrong in helping them.

As I say, it is a dog eat dog world, as long as you are not corrupt or fraudulant in obtaining business, if you can offer something someone else cannot or will not provide, in this case clean windows, then i see nothing wrong in not poaching but obtaining new business. After all in this case you are offering something they dont have clean windows!

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2006, 08:48:40 am »
It doesn't matter wether you are tarditional or WFP, at the end of the day if whoever has done the job hasn't taken his time etc.... then the results will be bad.

I have lost count how many traditional customers I have picked up over the years when the previous w/c didn't do a good job. Since taking on WFP I have started to pick up an odd few of these as well now.

Whatever method is used has not bearing on the product but everything to do with the operative.
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2006, 08:56:46 am »
an old thought ::) you are as good as the tools in your hand,how good are you :-\
WWW.FASTESTWINDOWCLEANER.CO.UK
GUINNESS WORLD RECORD HOLDER
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NATIONAL FEDERATION OF MASTER WINDOW CLEANERS.

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2006, 09:07:38 am »
Very true, and that comes from a man who definately knows his stuff!
Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

cleantech.co.uk

  • Posts: 63
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2006, 03:57:56 pm »


  1) The big companies who sell WFP need to offer an on hands training coarse
       when selling their products. Not the class instruction one that Ionics do but
       going round with the customer for a couple of days until they are confident
       in what they are doing.


I don't know if this helps, and i hope some other WFP suppliers can post their thoughts as well, but i usaully put prospective customers in touch with existing customers, and advise them to go and lend a hand for a day before deciding to purchase.

Many of the guys who have taken this up have been quite successfull, but not many do take it up as they see it as lost revenue (why should i help a competitor out instead of earning my own cash attitude) rather than somthing thats going to make them work smarter when they have there own system and in the end earn a lot more money as a result.

All posts by Justin @ Cleantech unless specified otherwise

Trevor Knight

  • Posts: 1825
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2006, 04:14:58 pm »
It basically bolis down to if they want to learn the hard way or not.

I speak from experience, I had already purchased my wfp set up prior to finding this forum and believe me I had my fair share of problems. If I had known of this forum and the opportunity to go out with a "competitor" for the day I would have jumped at the chance.

Covering Hampshire, Dorset, Surrey, Berkshire

cleantech.co.uk

  • Posts: 63
Re: Bad workmanship or bad after sales advise
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2006, 04:24:35 pm »
It basically bolis down to if they want to learn the hard way or not.

I speak from experience, I had already purchased my wfp set up prior to finding this forum and believe me I had my fair share of problems. If I had known of this forum and the opportunity to go out with a "competitor" for the day I would have jumped at the chance.



another part of it as well (i should have had this on the origional posting) is finding customers who are willing to take the others out, as although the guys are there going to help out, much of the time saved from that is taken up with the innevitable conversation about method and what is good about, and what sucks etc etc.

this means that you could be a 100miles from the nearest guy thats willing to let you come out with them, and again - some people are just not prepaired to do it.
All posts by Justin @ Cleantech unless specified otherwise