Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2006, 11:02:18 am »
Bull
I take on board the pressure v flow, having been a fireman and seeing how a large volume of water would move loose dirt very quickly.
Like you I too had to make my own system because nobody else was interested in helping me in 98. Living in a rural area with lots of loyal domestic customers I went the opposite way to you and went with a minimalist method to suit my round. You would probably explode in fits of laughter if I told you I clean glass only with 1/3rd to 1/2 litre per min and also carry minimum ammounts of water- 50 litres per day.Although have the capability to go to 4 litre per min( max pump size)
From your initial reply you use as much as you need but have the hydrant capability for 15 litre/min although you dont use it.
What size van tank do you generally use and what size/make brush.
I have to say the thought of "instant"water is interesting.
Surley the debate about one man bands v medium sized companies has always and will always be the same, its the technology and the ability to adapt to it that wins through. So you will forever have to keep one foot ahead of the competition. :)

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #41 on: January 10, 2006, 12:06:42 pm »
As most on here do mostly domestic houses they will never go for this type of system, the logistics of it all simply won't work.

But I understand the fear of the one man band coming along and, while not going out to undercut the opposition, putting in prices that are way to low.
Perhaps many of them get carried away by the fact that you can work so much faster than traditional window cleaners, and don't have a proper understanding of the fact that they have had to spend (even on a low priced system, DIY notwithstanding) over a grand on their WFP setup, and the fact that the running costs are far higher, the only bit you won't replace (if you're lucky ;)) is your holding tanks!

On the ordinary house windows using something like 5 litres per min is way over what is needed, as it is I only take about 20 secs or so (I think, I'll have to do a proper time & motion study) on a standard casement window.
The brush you use still has to scrub the glass & frame (if you do frames that is :-\), no matter how high the flowrate this has to occur.
Also, the higher the window, the longer this will take.
You still have to pull up and (if using a van mount) need to open up the van, drag hose to house and move from window to window.
All the bits in between the actual cleaning of the window has to be accounted for.

I do an office that now takes me under an hour and a half, it used to take anything from 3 to 5 hours.
The top floor is still hard work, its 30ft up and takes longer than the next one down, the ground floor takes less than 5 minutes, it is almost being cleaned at the same pace as you can walk around the building, and that is with a flowrate of between 2 and 2,5 litres per min.
I could have that flowrate at 5 litres per minute, but I wouldn't be cleaning the windows at twice the speed.

I do understand what Bull is saying about the link between pressure/flow/workrate, but there is probably an optimum, an ideal.
There will be a point where the flow of water being used, no matter how fast you are actually working is overkill, much of it being wasted.

Huge, plate glassed buildings are something that not many of us will work on, the criteria will be different on those.

On the point of pricing;
I have already found that I am, even though I'm trying not to, pricing differently now to how I would have done when working traditionally.

I picked up an all leaded account last week, 23 windows, 23 quid, first time clean took 30 mins, repeat cleans will be 15 to 20 minutes.

Good money perhaps, but I would have counted that up as at least 30 windows 2 years ago, maybe even 35 because every one is leaded, and some would be awkward to get at with ladders.
2 years ago I would have priced this house at £30 and taken at least an hour and a half for the first clean, down to an hour for repeat cleans.
At £23 per clean I'm still going to be earning more than double what I would have done had I been doing it trad.
And therin is the danger that Bull mentioned, the bigger the job, the bigger the drop in price, particularly for the one man outfit as against a company with several full time employees and a few vehicles and all the overheads that go with it.
Staying ahead and  remaining competitive is no easy task.

I'm digressing all over the place, I'm going back to finalising my accounts for the tax man :'(

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

John Conroy

Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #42 on: January 10, 2006, 12:10:55 pm »
Seems a good idea, looking at the bigger picture, yes you seem happy with what you are doing with your WFP system and its working for you, but cleaning windows with pure water is not about throwing a ton of water at it, it just throws up to many problems like vents, unsealed frames the list goes (many more mention on this topic) I do wise you all the luck in the world but its not one of the best invention us window cleaners have come across and I can safely say its not going to change the industry.     

bullstopshere

  • Posts: 12
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2006, 01:47:45 pm »
Bull
I take on board the pressure v flow, having been a fireman and seeing how a large volume of water would move loose dirt very quickly.
Like you I too had to make my own system because nobody else was interested in helping me in 98. Living in a rural area with lots of loyal domestic customers I went the opposite way to you and went with a minimalist method to suit my round. You would probably explode in fits of laughter if I told you I clean glass only with 1/3rd to 1/2 litre per min and also carry minimum ammounts of water- 50 litres per day.Although have the capability to go to 4 litre per min( max pump size)
From your initial reply you use as much as you need but have the hydrant capability for 15 litre/min although you dont use it.
What size van tank do you generally use and what size/make brush.
I have to say the thought of "instant"water is interesting.
Surley the debate about one man bands v medium sized companies has always and will always be the same, its the technology and the ability to adapt to it that wins through. So you will forever have to keep one foot ahead of the competition. :)

Jeff
Thanks for your comments. At present the system is installed in a Renault Traffic LWB Hi Top with a 1000 litre holding tank. I use the Ionics carbon poles although the brushes are no match for the original tucker pole product.
I had a chat with some of our guys this morning and they felt if the water was available
then they could double normal speed but they attributed a share of that to the carbon poles particularly when doing 3 storey.

If I were in a rural area I would have no probs with just hooking upto a hydrant at the side of a quiet road and filling a couple of hundred litres in minutes.

Anyway if theres a water shortage I'll be asking you how you do it, and if as someone else suggested they start taxing water I'll leave the country.

Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2006, 01:57:10 pm »
Didnt know  hydrants had meters  :)  so you should be OK other wise I'll get me coat.
In the last cold spell the hydrant water must have been slightly warmer, did the freezing weather hold you up ?

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #45 on: August 05, 2006, 09:45:46 pm »
bullstopshere, hows it going with your WFP systems, see on your profile that you was on cleanitup today (August 05, 2006, 09:39:20 PM) reason why I ask is that we are fill up from standpipes (Hydrant) but with a De min system which really is not cost affective :-\

Andy   

Jeff Brimble

  • Posts: 4347
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2006, 09:11:38 pm »
Just brought this one back as Bull  may not have seen it and Steven wants a contact as well.

freshwater

  • Posts: 277
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2006, 08:28:15 pm »
bull,

I though hooking up to hydrants was illegal for private individuals.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk

Johnboyfree

  • Posts: 161
Re: A Riddle Or A New Invention ?
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2006, 08:46:18 pm »
bull,

I though hooking up to hydrants was illegal for private individuals.

steve@freshwatersystems.co.uk
Hi,you apply to the water authority you are taking the water from and they will give you a standpipe with a built in meter,my area it is about £150 for 6 months and the first 50,000 ltrs are free,after this its 93pence per 1,000 ltrs.hope this helps