drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
hi guys got a custy having a little moan, i cleaned and re sanded an orange clay blockpaving drive which is around 150 sq metres.  i used b&q kiln dried sand and waited for joints to be completely dry as usual before doing it.  i have never had any probs before in 6 years.  but the custy says the sand has not gone off the surface and is all over the surface.  i always make sure only the joints are filled and i get rid of any excess sand.  i know clay pavers have wider joints so im just thinking the rain and wind has pushed the sand up a bit and over the blocks all over.  he wants me to have a look and see what i can do.  should i have applied a joint stabiliser?  i have never need to before!  he said when he first had it laid the sand went after 2 weeks but i did this over 6 weeks ago and its still over his blocks.

if he wants me to do anything about it he will have to pay for me to re jetwash the drive again and re sand it and also appy a joint stabiliser which will cost a lot.  what the hell should i do cos he wont want to pay a lot again"!   there are always some custies never happy! :'(

Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: help guys please needed asap.
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 04:09:17 pm »
I'd give it a quick surface wash,.. just rinse away any excess and walk away.

drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help guys please needed asap on clay block paving??
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2009, 09:49:01 pm »
To be honest as its just been washed I'd just go and sweep the exess off the surface with a soft brush. It just shows up more because the blocks are clean and it's new sand. It's probably all this torrential rain thats just splashed the sand out the joints a bit and he's fussing. Ask him what he wants you to do about it as the sand is more use on the blocks and finding it's way back in the joints, than it is i the bin
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: help guys please needed asap on clay block paving??
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2009, 02:52:27 pm »
This is not uncommon with newly sanded block-paving. Heavy rain is the usual culprit and clay is especially prone as the gaps between blocks are wider and so mor sand is used.

As long as you remove as much as possible during the initial sanding then this should not take more than a 10 minute sweep to resolve.

It is best to advise of this prior to starting work. This way the custy is not disappointed and knows that all they have to do is a quick sweep.

As you haven't explained already it would be best to pop over to your custy and sweep for him. Explain during your visit that this may happen again if there is heavy rain prior to the sand properly settling.

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help guys please needed asap on clay block paving??
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2009, 04:40:53 pm »
che ;)ers ian.

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
she phoned me today and said i cant look at it today as its wet and you can t see the sand all over surface.  she threatened to go to lawyer over it if i dont sort it. im disgusted at this treatment after doing a great cleaning and re sanding job!!

even if she buys the keybond i would have to jet wash it again for free and resand it for free including buying the sand and then there is the labour of keybonding it. she said she wont pay me for labour as it should have been done in the price, but thats rubbish as i only quoted for cleaning and re sanding

help guys, she might take me to court im worried.  also she lives in my local area so she will bad mouth me all over if i dont do it.  :o

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Funny,i was always lead to believe you wet pointed riged clay pavers
or used polymeric sand :-\
http://www.pavingexpert.com/pointing.htm
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Hi Stalwart

Kiln dried is for between all block paving.

I understand that some people do use joint stabilisers and suppliers sell various additives. Not sure they are ideal for flexible paving but can't comment for sure as we've neber used.

Quote below is from the link you posted: -
Dry Sand Jointing
"This method is used on all flexible block pavements, and on pavements constructed using small element pavers. It is also used with some decorative patio flags where a mortar joint is not required.

    Three important points to note:

      1. there is NO cement used: None, nil, zero, zilch, nada, neamhní, nowt.
       2. the sand used is specially selected
       3. the surface must be dry

Building sand, playpit sand, beach or river sand, grit, coarse, bedding, soft and plastering sands are not normally suitable. The sand to be used consists of grains that fall within an upper and lower size range, to ensure maximum interlock between grains".

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
On the subject of jointing, clay pavers usually require slightly more jointing sand per square metre than
http://www.pavingexpert.com/pointing.htm

this is what it also says.,

concrete pavers of a comparable size. This is because of the imperfect nature of the pavers, which results in the joints being slightly wider than would be found with concrete blocks. The difference is usually around 15-25%, so, where a standard 40kg bag of jointing sand might be sufficient to fill all the joints of a 16m² pavement constructed using 200x100x60mm concrete blocks, a similar area of 200x100x60mm clay pavers might require 50kg.

Also, as the imperfect nature of clay pavers results in some joints being 5-8mm in width, there can be a problem with 'scour' during the first few months after construction. This is the phenomenon whereby surface water or vigorous sweeping can remove jointing sand from open joints. If this becomes a problem, then the joints should be re-filled and treated with a joint stabilising fluid to keep the sand in place until such time as natural sealing by means of detritus takes place.  :-X

the trouble is you cant use keybond,

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
thats right ian i used a standard kiln dried sand from b&q for block paving as usual.

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009, 06:11:50 pm »
Just spoke to a block paver,he recommended this on larger joints,got him out of trouble before,and yes its ok for CLAY pavers
http://www.marshalls.co.uk/select/paving/detail_block_paving_and_setts_limestone_grit_dust.htm
The end
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009, 06:17:59 pm »
i phoned marshalls before but they did not recommend that ??? they said i had done all i could do apart from seal the paving which is not an easy option being clay.  not to mention the cost, there is no way she would have paid to have it sealed anyway.

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 07:32:45 pm »
i went to see the guy before and i told him that it was just the weather with heavy rain that has pushed the sand out the joints all over the blocks, he said he will sue me and i will lose if i dont seal the paving.  i told hoim im not sealing it but i will try sweep the excess away and see how it goes.

 he could put me out of business if i lose :'( :'( :'( :'(

drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 09:13:12 pm »
Ds
I can't undertand how you can loose, loose what exactly?
You cleaned and resanded his driveway, thats what you quoted him for wasn't it?
Ask him if it was saeled or bonded in any way when it was new. You have done exactly what you quoted for.

Even if he did sue you, he would only take you to a small claims court, doesn't matter how wealthy or well to do he is he can only use the system everyone else does.

If he does issue a ccj against you you can defend it yourself. You both go in front of a judge (someone just like you and me) put your case to him, at the end of the day it's his decision surley he would see common sence in that a £250 clean and resand can't possibly be missunderstood for a £600 sealing job.

So tell the bloke to go away in short jerky movements
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009, 09:17:23 pm »
thanks steve, i have been killing myself over this.  he said it was sealed when it was first laid. i asked what with?  he did not know. but i wonder why he never asked me to seal it if thats what he had done when it was laid.  he just agreed to go ahead with a clean and re-sand, or it was his wife that dealt with it anyway.

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2009, 09:20:25 pm »
he said he would do me on the customer rights thing or trades desciption act or something.  cos after the job was completed he was having problems. 

drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2009, 09:23:23 pm »
Thats a bit like sueing butlins because it rained during your hollidays. Any judge will see what a plonker this guy is.
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2009, 09:31:11 pm »
i know steve you are right.  my head has been banging all day with worry over this.  im 30 and still living at home and i always do a good job. im still only learning myself even tho i have been doing this job for 6 years now. you just cant please everyone.  im getting disclaimers sorted now for each job i do i have had enough of this poop today!

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2009, 09:46:52 pm »
So tell the bloke to go away in short jerky movements
in other words,go forth and multiply Mr wayne kerr  ;)
simples  ::)
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2009, 10:08:41 pm »
Exactly!
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

Robert Parry

  • Posts: 535
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2009, 02:07:44 pm »
Probably going to get no end of grief for this, but here goes!

When a prospective client contacts you to quote for some work, they contact you because they want the job done professionally.  The prospect, rightly, or wrongly assumes that you do indeed have the knowledge and expertise to carry out the work.

Upon visiting the client’s premises, you carry out your survey based on the needs of the client; sometimes the client has no real idea of how to maintain the surface, that’s exactly why they contacted you.

When this particular client told you that she wanted it cleaned and re-sanded, you as the professional should have pointed out the fact that this particular surface may need to be sealed, and of course advise the client of the potential problems that may arise if this sealing is not carried out.

As well as the problems inclement weather may cause after you have carried out the work.

All of this information and your recommendations should have been contained in your written quotation, signed and dated by yourself and you prospective client, one copy for you, the other for you customer.

This way, you have covered all the angles.

This particular client, may be trying it on, as he has stated that the area was sealed last time, however, in my opinion, by not following the advice given above, you have left wide open to this sort of complaint. Then again the client may have assumed that you know what you are doing, and is genuine in his belief that he paid you to do a job, and he doesn’t see why he should be held responsible for what he perceives to be your shortcomings on this particular job.

There is no real point in worrying yourself over this, just try to learn from it and be better prepared next time, get your paperwork in order, follow correct procedures, and hopefully all will be well.

Regards,

Rob
A world of difference....

paul macca

  • Posts: 42
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2009, 02:48:32 pm »
Because of one bad experience your going to start dishing out disclaimers.
If a tradesman came to do a job for me waving disclaimers about before he started i would lose all confidence in him and tell him to clear off.
Customers are king and your best bet is to do what is needed to rectify this situation and move on.

 Paul

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2009, 08:27:49 pm »
rob i would not advised them to seal clay pavers as clay is not an easy surface to seal. i did what i thought was best and did a great job and never have had a complaint before in over 6 years of cleaning and re sanding.

GWCS

Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2009, 08:54:54 pm »
DS, you should make sure you get all your documentation ready for "next time".

Tell them it wont be sealed, unless they want it to be sealed, and explains the pros and cons and give them a copy of this.

Give them a info sheet of possible problems they may arise after works such as the sand coming free.

On the quote include or exclude the sealing option, that way you can say you gave them the info and you gave your professional opinion, and they have the final decision and they sign to what they want, ad to the fact they have read the information you have provided them.

No waivers/disclaimers, just a contract of the requested works.

Give all the info you can.. When it comes to quoting if you tell them everything, and the next guys that comes along tells them nothing, your more likely to get the job even if you are more, because they can trust you more, and understand what exactly you are going to do for them.



drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2009, 09:49:22 pm »
Look it's simple. The quote was accepted for a clean and resand.. end of.
Youv'e done what you said you would.
As for all the faffing about, should have written...should have adviced.. professional person. what a load of tripe.

If I ask a tradesperson to quote me for whatever, I don't want em banging on about extra this special that all singing and dancing... Unless of course the client asked what would be best to keep sand in the joints, but I believe client asked for a clean and reseal. How anyone can win a court case for doing what you quoted for beats me.

Sorry if its a bit harsh but I believe in saying things as they are, and honest down to earth dealings with no double glazing sales voodoo. Don't know what the bloody words coming to!
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

GWCS

Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2009, 10:24:33 pm »
Look it's simple. The quote was accepted for a clean and resand.. end of.
Youv'e done what you said you would.
As for all the faffing about, should have written...should have adviced.. professional person. what a load of tripe.

If I ask a tradesperson to quote me for whatever, I don't want em banging on about extra this special that all singing and dancing... Unless of course the client asked what would be best to keep sand in the joints, but I believe client asked for a clean and reseal. How anyone can win a court case for doing what you quoted for beats me.

Sorry if its a bit harsh but I believe in saying things as they are, and honest down to earth dealings with no double glazing sales voodoo. Don't know what the bloody words coming to!

now that is a load of tripe.

you hire a professional as they are "supposed to know" what to do. Otherwise the customer can just do it themselves. Ive been to many homes who have had their drives cleaned and re sanded, and then ive said shouldn't you of had this sealed to prevent all this sand causing a slipping hazard?

"I dunno", came every reply. Because they do not know what is the protocol.

Im no drive cleaner, but if i got a cleaner in to do the drive i'd expect it to be sealed too, if it was sealed before and also that sand is a major slipping hazard!

If you do not advise them then it is left open to interpretation, which is simply what DS has now. No customer is going to know what or how it was sealed with previously, and if you think should then your living on cloud cookoo land.

Any professional in any trade, will actually give advise and the best way of doing it. Only cowboys do the job, and run with the cash with no advise and then say p off at the complaints stage.

Robert Parry was absolutely correct with what he advised.



drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2009, 12:27:54 am »
The op reads, when first laid the sand went away after only 2 weeks. So how could it have been sealed then or there would be no sand. The guy tells Ds the next conversation it was sealed. I think the guys trying it on. This sealing is like selling double glazing. most of the block paving in UK is not sealed, but the sealing profession wants all those who aint got it sealed to think it is.

And by the way, cleaning and resanding can be done DIY whats wrong with that. If custy wants to spend 10hours getting soaked through 2 days acing all over doing something I can do in a couple of hours.
I only clean and resand, if custy asks me about sealing I pass the job on to one of 2 sealing contractors that I clean only for, let them do the job, I clean job for them they pay me. Otherwise I ust qote for what I'm asked to
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2009, 10:26:12 am »
I tottally agree with Steve on this one,you got an email my friend?
<<<<<<<,chris.eventide@googlemail.com
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

mark.laycock1@ntlw

  • Posts: 790
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2009, 01:49:16 pm »
ds,

have you a photo of what as gone wrong.
mark

drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2009, 04:36:54 pm »
Is that this steve ie me?
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2009, 04:51:06 pm »
indeed it is Mr drivewasher
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

drivewasher

  • Posts: 380
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2009, 08:25:49 pm »
It's In me profile
I'm always in the poo, it's just the depth that varies

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2009, 08:46:36 pm »
heres the drive after i went round with the vac the other day to suck up any excess sand.

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2009, 08:50:09 pm »
there is a few pieces of grass showing as this was cleaned 6 weeks ago.

gutterman

  • Posts: 119
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2009, 09:42:48 pm »
is the issue not the weeds returning hence the customers desire for sealing

i would say that this is the real bug bear

regards

Gutterman

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2009, 09:54:04 pm »
no as they have got their gardner to buy and apply a weedkiller, i sucked up a bit of excess sand up from the edges and of face of blocks but it was not as bad as they said. they said they spent ages brushing sand off blocks.  their gardner said they are jewish and they were just trying to get me to seal it for free,  i told them i wont be!!!

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2009, 09:57:12 pm »
What is that smell  :(
This is getting beyond the joke ::)
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

karygate

  • Posts: 694
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2009, 07:34:12 am »
the grass has grown back after only six weeks.  ???
gary

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2009, 11:44:45 am »
well i jet wash it so everything is out the joints then when dry i brush b&q kiln dried sand in.?  what else do i need to do??? :-X

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2009, 01:07:23 pm »
I'd definitely include (or at least offer at the quotation stage) a residual weedkiller.

Search on here for Sodium Chlorate. It's been discussed loads of times.


Nathanael Jones

  • Posts: 5596
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2009, 01:32:57 pm »
Is that similar to sodium Hypochlorite (Bleach)?


Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2009, 02:48:38 pm »
No, it is a non-selective residual weedkiller.

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2009, 05:42:34 pm »
i have used sodium chlorate loads of times after cleaning and before sanding but i believe it is getting banned and places i know have stopped stocking it. but also i dont even think about it when the drive runs onto borders and grass etc .


sodium hypochlorate is chlorine so i would not use that! :o

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2009, 09:55:33 pm »
Banned as of next year, still available for a while yet.

I am advised by an associate that there is a desperate search on for a decent replacement but so far nothing really any good.


drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2009, 10:30:06 pm »
why is it getting banned ian?

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2009, 12:33:16 pm »
jesus we wont be able to wipe our arses next!!!  :o

trevor perry

  • Posts: 2454
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2009, 03:19:31 pm »
jesus we wont be able to wipe our arses next!!!  :o
you could always offer to jetwash them ;D ;D
better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove any doubt

drive surgeon

  • Posts: 2812
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2009, 03:49:36 pm »
i think there are a few "arses" on here that could do with a jet wash trev   ;D

stalwart

  • Posts: 344
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2009, 05:14:09 pm »
You think so DS,will that need sealing to  ???
Been there,seen it,done it,just cant remember when

Griffus

  • Posts: 1942
Re: help needed on clay paving as custy is threatening to go to lawyer
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2009, 05:22:04 pm »
Wait until totally dry first and be sure to get the sand well in between the cracks ;D