[CMS]

Well said Fox!

Ian............I don't think the Council cleaners should be treated differently than the receptionist either.....neither of them should get sick pay.

It's a fact of life that when you pay sick pay the level of sickness goes up. That particular council I was talking about has in excess of 35% of its staff off sick at any one time. It's outrageous!! Take the sick pay away and many would instantly get better. And..................there is a pattern to it...................

It's amazing how more people are sick in the school holidays etc. and of course when the sun is shining.

We have developed a culture where everyone wants something for nothing and councils (and therefore their Councillors) must carry a big part of the blame. It's easy to see why, of course, because it is not their money they are giving away - it's ours!

Only today in The Mail there is an article about how Royal Mail have given their postmen a £12,000 car for turning up to work every day for six months!!!!

If you are a Cleaning Contractor competing in a commercial environment there is an easy way to see whether or not you should be paying sick pay............

When you are competing for a contract try saying this to your prospective Client......

"I'd like to be able to pay my staff for not coming into work when they feel unwell. Yes, I know it will increase my absenteeism (and therefore my costs) but I'd like to be able to pass this cost onto you, if that's OK"

You will be shown the door pretty sharpish., I'm sure.

You see, Ian, we as Contractors can't tell our Clients that must pay for people to be off sick. You as a Local Councillor CAN do that. You just put our Council Tax up to cover it.

Local Councillors who spend OUR money in such a haphazard way make my blood boil - they really do!

[garyj]

Ian, as a local councillor you will know that the government sector has the highest amount of sick days of any business. I would suggest that this is due to many people who take sick days as a perk and extended holidays. I know that many government employees even have a rota and work out between them when they are going to be sick.

How many days off sick do the self employed have??? Err not many at all, in fact I can't even remember ever having a day off due to  sickness since I've been my own boss!

The amount of times I've been left in the lurch due to someone calling in sick at the last min is staggering.

[dustycorner]

Hi Criag,

With reference to your point about getting good training elsewhere, you make the assumption its not being provided on which you are wrong. Secondly i would take my training regime over a multinational like Tesco any day. See how much time they devote to training their cashiers normally 2 hours with a folder referring to thier products and then shoved onto a till, smacks of being professional that.

I may sound harsh in my previous post but wait to you have someone ringing you 5 minutes before  work phoning sick and your struggling to get cover or you suspect its not genuine. I f your employees teach you anything it will be to develop a thick skin and be cynical.

Cheers Mark.

[craig b]

As i said mark what ever works for you !
I can read you did say about your training that your employee must get down on ther knees and thank you for and be  grateful that you have given them a job .
And To be honest i do want to stay small in business
I dont want to be the next richard brason i just want to earn a good living so i dont have to work for people like you .

CHEERS!

[dustycorner]

Craig,

you make too many assumptions about myself and my business. I employ people they get a fair wage for which i expect a fair level of competence, attendance and performance. As for making staff down on their knees grateful for their jobs that comment is uncalled for. The last employee i helped couldnt read or write she now is attending learn direct to address this issue, so understand my slight irritation at your assumption that with staff us employers treat it like a one way street.

Also i don't understand your comment about not  being next richard branson thought that why we all went into business for ourselves.

Cheers Mark

[Ian Gourlay]

None of you have considered the point, that when staff report to work sick they often have an infectious illness which will spread through the entire company thus harming  productivity.

Companies and organizations that pay staff when off sick should have in place procedures for monitoring absence.

Staff should be interviewed on their return and a record filed.

I wonder if that Council and Royal Mail have these procedures in place or was it just a case of Morning Bill Glad to see you are back are you alright?



Regarding the Self Employed they do have  the option of taking out insurance  to cover loss of income while off sick and charge it as an expense.

[CMS]

Companies and organizations that pay staff when off sick should have in place procedures for monitoring absence.

Staff should be interviewed on their return and a record filed.

I wonder if that Council and Royal Mail have these procedures in place or was it just a case of Morning Bill Glad to see you are back are you alright?

That Council (and Royal Mail) have a scheme for 'Sickness Monitoring' (notice that it isn't called sickness counselling - another case of political correctness gone mad) but because they have it in place it needs to be included in the Employee Handbook and the staff 'work' it like true professionals!

They know WHEN they can go sick, HOW LONG they can take off etc. before it starts to impact on their conduct record. It is wide open to abuse!

There is a 'Return to Work' interview of course.

What I have found recently is that there are more people who use 'stress' as a reason for being off sick. They know that this is something that can't be 'seen' by anyone.

I'm now going to give you two REAL examples that I was involved with in the last two years whilst doing consultancy work for 'that' Council and yes, Royal Mail.

1. An employee of the council was off work for two weeks during the school holidays. The managers 'guidance notes' suggest that they be phoned at home to see how they are, to offer any help and to try and establish when they will be back. This happened, only for the employee to claim that it was harrassment. The union were involved and there was a serious possibility of a strike which would mean disruption to services and schools closing. The manager was made to apologise and the employee had a further 12 months off work. As soon as the 'Sick Pay' finished that employee made a remarkable recovery.

2. A Royal Mail cleaner (with 17 years service) had been found out claiming unauthorised payments for a period of 4 years. The total amount that she had claimed was in excess of £5,000. (Technically it was theft). It was my duty to interview her about this. All procedures were followed and the CWU (union) were involved. I was told by the union that I should have spotted earlier that she was being dishonest and because I didn't it was MY FAULT! The next day that cleaner went sick with stress (so that she could not be interviewed further) but she was not too stressed to be seen out on the town drinking (when she should have been at work). This dragged on for six months and eventually she applied for, and received Early Voluntary Redundancy with a payoff of £23,000!

This is the sort of abuse I am talking about!

[Jan K]

Just to put my 2 pence worth in, my partner works in the Semiconductor industry where if an employee is off sick they lose their shift allowance but not their basic pay.

Also each time they have time off sick they are penalised on a points system (Bradford Index). Can't remember exactly how many points they receive for being off sick but it is the same amount regardless of how many or few days they take off. When they return to work after their period of sickness they receive a Back To Work interview where they are asked if they intend taking any more time off sick (stupid I know), amongst other questions. If their index goes above 100 in a period of a year they are given a warning.......you know how it goes then....verbals, written, out!!

But even this system is prone to abuse and all they guys and gals in his workplace know how to work it.

Staff sickness is something we all have to contend with and we all have to deal with it in whatever way is correct at that time. Personally I won't tolerate unreliability and my (4) staff know this, but I am pretty easy going and I do show them appreciation for their work and they know that if they work hard, stick by me and are loyal when the business is booming (note I said when and not if) they will be rewarded financially. At the moment I can only reward them with works of thanks and appreciation and being their for them as best I can.

They also know that if they need time off, even short notice, I am happy to let them have it as I am now in a position to step in at the last minute.

I make sure I keep all of them informed of what is happening in the business and as long as they and my Clients are happy and contented (which they are at present), everything else is a bonus. I personally think that you have to make yourself approachable to your staff so that they can talk to you about anything......finding that happy medium between being their boss and their friend is hard, but I have managed to do that with the girls I have with me at the moment.

Having said that we are still a 'baby' company and things will ultimately change as and when we get bigger, and I may not always have the time to listen to what they need and want to talk to me about whether good things or bad (but I certainly will try hard to give them the time they need).

Sometimes I wonder if I really want to become a huge multi million company (would be nice to be loaded) but I don't want to 'lose my way' which can so easily happen.

Sorry got off the point a bit there (ha nothing changes)

[Tim Downer]

Hi Gang

Well this posting has gotten big!

What was the original question about?

Everyone has had their pennies worth to put in.....and although many are different none of you are wrong.....

If you want to look after your staff by training them to make sure they do the work for you properly and to a high standard, and you want to pay them sick pay / sickness allowance or whatever, and pay them holiday pay etc and give them bonuses.....well good for you and all the best in your business and running it the way you want to - as long as you are making your wages too that is.

If you couldn't give a monkey about your staff and don't wish to pay them sick pay or holiday pay and you are making money for yourselves then good luck to you too.....

Personnally speaking (or writing...) the latter doesn't suit me.....We use the Bradford Index for sickness and have in place procedures for the interview when they return to work.

However, since October last year none of my staff have had any time off due to sickness as of yet!.....Could this be because i make sure the staff are looked after?

I would have to agree with Jan's comments above this post, as i treat my staff the same as she seems to....but it works for us.

Anyway.....what was the original question on this posting??

All the best to you all out there.....whatever your thoughts on the above

Tim

[Ian Gourlay]

 I found CMS reply very interesting. Seems to be a growing industry at present in local government, bringing in the consultants.

However his case study was very interesing.

Would like to ask more but we are off topic, and members of the public can look in and I might get charged a consultancy fee. :

[blacksheep]

hi all i agree with cms .craig is very nieave or just very lucky , iam a cleaning manager and in one year i have gone from been like and thinking like craig to been just like cms. i have had cleaners ringing up saying their hubby is in intensive care and on his death bed ,then what do you know, the old boy rings up on her behalf the next day, saying she is sick bring in sick notes ect, then i go to bingo wtyhmother in law ,same night and their sitting there fAg in mouth, a pint of  larger in frount of them playing bingo but very red faced after a while you know the ones who are sick or not