[Musicman]

Len JP would work for domestic as his marketing strategies are aimed at that market.

I was referring to contract cleaning.

(PS, Tell Kevin I haven't forgotten the marketing stuff I'm just up to my neck in work at the moment.)

[S C Solutions]

just to have my say. i believe good contracts are built on solid honest relationships with the client. always be on their side and promptly correct any problems they have.

when i take on a new contract i issue a cleaning schedule folder which has a sheet of daily tasks for my cleaners which is signed every day by a member of staff. a sheet which is for the client to write any complaints or requests for further cleaning requirements and a sheet for my managers to do a weekly spot check and sign it off.

this works well as you can see all the problems in front of you and each day it gets signed of by a member of staff so that they can't complain the next day.

with regards to pricing here is our formula for all thoughs who struggle to price a job. EXAMPLE
1 cleaner @£6 per hour  x 58 / 52 = £6.69(this is how much a cleaner cost per hour with holidays etc)

£6.69 x 2 hours per day x 5days per week = £66.90(this is how much one cleaner cost per week)

£66.90 + £7 product and depreciation cost = £73.90

£73.90 + 35% = £99.77 per week the high margin also cover a manger for site spot checks.

[Len Gribble]

Musicman

Thanks for the wake up call on commercials been a long time since I’ve been in that game, clean to a price! Popped into one of my old commercial customers today (they did recognises me) to buy some thing prices £9.99 at checkout £4.99

Len

[CMS]

S C Solutions

Your method of a daily 'sign off' is fine using an input spec. As most companies are trying to move towards an 'output spec' there is more of a grey area.

Also, a daily sign off by the Client is far too frequent! It won't take them long to realise that it would be as easy to manage their own cleaning staff!

[Ian Gourlay]

SC solutions I noticed that you still came out at CMS £!0 an hour .

Which I think gives you a Gross Profit of 25% on turnover which  is the way my brain works as i was a retailer.

[CMS]

He did - didn't he Ian?

But the long way round 

[Musicman]

This shows that those of us that have been around for a while are fairly consistent with our pricing which reflects our understanding of the market.

Just one thing about the pricing from S C Solutions; why are you allowing 6 weeks a year paid hols?

1 cleaner @£6 per hour  x 58 / 52

[S C Solutions]

this accounts for sick days as well as holidays.

[CMS]

You pay your staff for being off sick? That's unusual?

[Tim Downer]

If you allow for sickness, which you will get, even if you don't pay the staff for the days off the money allocated covers for replacing with someone else, or if you go and do it, you can have it!

Tim

[Musicman]

By tradition the cleaning industry does not pay cleaners for being off work for sickness (unless they are entitled to SSP - in which case the money is claimed back from the Government), therefore there is no cost to the employer and nor should there be to the client.

If the hours are covered by other staff you would pay them accordingly - but this is balanced out by the saving from the original cleaner being off sick.

Of course we expect sickness but as there will not be any extra on-cost there shouldn't be a charge to the client by way of a sickness allowance.

The way that I see it is that this is a way of ripping off the client (in the case above to the tune of £200 per year per cleaner) - and I would have no hesitation in letting that client know if I saw such an outlined costing (and you'd be amazed at how many I get to see).

The subtle undermining of the existing contractor and their abilities is part of the sales process and to a predator like myself this would be manna from heaven.

It may not be your intention to con the client; perhaps this is just a mis-understanding of how to price up, or maybe some people DO actually pay for time off sick - but I have my doubts...

Have a great week everybody. 

Musicman

[CMS]

I agree Musicman....................payments for being off sick are extremely rare in this industry and if you don't intend to pass on sick pay to your staff, don't charge it to your Client. It's a total rippoff and I would also love to point it out to a Client if I saw it..................a sure contract winner for me.

I have done some consultancy work for the cleaning dept. of a large City Council over the years and they DO pay their staff sick pay. It amounts to FULL pay for the first six months of sickness and HALF pay for the second six months. The problem is that they have 35% of their staff off ill at any one time. When you combine this with the need to carry out CRB checks (taking ages to process) you have nightmare of a situation staffing buidings.

This is a problem that they have inherited over the years and which they are trying to phase out. You can't, of course, just change peoples 'Terms and Conditions' so in cases like this you normally find half of the employees on an 'Old Contract' and new starters on a 'New Contract' with different 'T's and C's'.

If big organisations like this are trying to phase out 'Sick Pay' why on earth would the smaller companies try to introduce it (Tim)?

My view is that it shouldn't be paid.

[craig b]

IT LOOKS LIKE USE ONLY CARE AOUT YOUS SELFS AND THE "CLIENTS".
NEVER MIND ONES WHO DO THE WORK.
ITS A GOOD IDEA TO PAY STAFF AT LEAST A WEEKS FULL SICK PAY ,
IF THEY OUR GENUINELY SICK.
IT DOESNT WORK IN BIG COMPANYS BECAUSE IT GETS ABUSED .

I KNOW WHO I WOULD RATHER WORK FOR !

[dustycorner]

Hi Criag,

IT LOOKS LIKE USE ONLY CARE AOUT YOUS SELFS AND THE "CLIENTS".
NEVER MIND ONES WHO DO THE WORK.

To my mind they are the only two people to care about, we provide staff with jobs for which they get paid. We owe staff nothing more than to provide adequate training, support, equipment and materials to carry out the duties they are employed for.

Has for ssp if a employee earn less than £75 per week they are not entitled to ssp recently told this by acas.

There are no friends in business especially with employees, they soon drop you if something else appears on the horizon.

Cheers Mark.

[S C Solutions]

just to set the record straight. i run a small set-up with aprox 24 full time staff. most of these have been with me since the start and some even worked for nothing in the early days when i started. so i will always look after these loyal work conscious freinds and employees. if they look after me i look after them.

[craig b]

Mark i agree they will go some were better , some were that has better insentives like paid sick , bonus scheme, good training, and were the employee enjoys working. it is horses for courses .
what ever works for you .
some one shouldnt get slated for looking after his employees.

dont  pay them when they are of sick but the one who dont take any sick all year round you should show them some appreciation .

I WOULDNT PAY SOME ONE IF THEY ARE OF SICK BUT I WILL GIVE A BRUCIE AT THE END OF WEEK.

Iam only at the point of taken someone on but do believe in team work not
 me. me.me..me. as i said what ever works for you.

On the main subject i do some office cleaning every two weeks for some customers and i think it pays well
between £18 and £28  they take between 20 and 40 minutes
do them in the morning then go to other job .they do nicely for filling in gaps

[CMS]

IT DOESNT WORK IN BIG COMPANYS BECAUSE IT GETS ABUSED .

 

That was the whole point of my post Craig.

So, I presume that you want to stay 'small' so that you can continue to act as a charity not as a business. If you intend to 'grow' you will need to treat all employees the same.

And by the way, I don't mean to be rude................I'm just a realist..............(having already been there and made the mistakes). 

[CMS]

Incidentally, some years ago I used to operate an 'attendance bonus' scheme (with the full co-operation of the Client).

We paid £4.00 per hour (which was allowed at the time) PLUS a 50 pence per hour 'attendance bonus'. If the employee had any time off at all during a particular month they forfieted their whole months bonus.

So, when they looked out of the window in the morning and it was raining they thought twice about taking the time off. On a 2 hour per day shift non attendance could cost them £28.00 NOT £8.00!

There were ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS (Not even funerals) and the Client was happy for this to be built into the cost which ensured that they had a cleaner every day.

The cleaners viewed the bonus as a 'perk' of the job. They did not view its deduction as a 'penalty'.

[Ian Gourlay]

So the cleaning industry expects its staff to come in all though they are half dead, and are the type of people who cannot afford to loose the money when they are sick.

Why  to keep the cost down so companies are able to make huge profits and pay the directors bonus and share option.

No wonder we have Hospital aquired infections and sick building syndrome.

I do realise it is the way of the World and if I was a contractor and did not have to I would not pay sick pay, holiday pay, etc as I would have to compete agaiinst those that do not, however I see no reason why cleaners should not have the same working rights as other employees in the organization that they work with.

As a local Councillor I am disapointed with the Council mentioned in the post that is taking this away from its in House cleaning staff,

Although this will relieve the preasure on Council Tax, why should the cleaner be treated diffrently fom the receptionist,

[Fox]

With respect to sick pay there are many factors to take into consideration.  Within the cleaning industry most employees are part time working approx 2 hours per day Monday to Friday to supplement their main income, which provide them with sick pay. 

A cost of sickness can not be built into a quotation.  How would you estimate how many hours per year someone may or may not take off sick?  Full time employees have a right to SSP but even this is not as simple as it seems as it is not all reclaimable from the government, you can only claim if it amounts to over 13% (the % may now have changed) of your total payroll.

It is not just in the cleaning industry where it is common not to pay sick pay but in many others such as the care sector for instance.  Go ask on the window cleaning and carpet cleaning sections who gets sick pay?  So that adds those who are self employed too.

It would be nice to think that my divs etc will be better because I don't pay sick pay, the fact of the matter is the money is just not there in the first place!  There are plenty of honest hard working people out there who will not take days off unless genuine however for every one of them there are many others who will take time off for anything, because it is raining, because it is sunny, because they have a hangover, because they need to go shopping, I could go on!

As an employer I do not feel I should be accountable for peoples health, I already pay holiday pay, employers NIC and bonuses.  If my employees are ill they have the option of taking holiday pay or making up the hours if there is availability elsewhere.

Fox