[maggie67]

Wonder if anyone can help??

 I have been asked to quote for some office cleaning which I haven't done before. I charge around £14 p/h for domestic cleaning and don't feel that I can provide a cleaning service for less (with staff, cleaning materials/equipment, insurance etc.,).

I don't really want to quote for this job if I cannot charge a similar rate. Previous experience, as an employee gave me the impression that a pittance is charged for this type of cleaning!!

Any advice would be gratefully received

Many thanks

Maggie  

[Singrey]

You wont be anywhere near the ball park at £14/hr. But put it in at that rate anyhow if that’s the lowest your prepared to go – What have you got to lose?

[Jan K]

Don't see any reason why the office job should be charged at a lower rate than your dom jobs. I used to charge the same rate for my Solicitors office cleaning job as I did my dom jobs. I added on parking fees as it was a town centre job. As I was supplying materials I obviously charged them for that too, plus added on a little bit extra as I was the one collecting them.

The biggest hassle was in respect that it was a 3 hour shift to be carried out during normal working hours, but if I didn't get there before 9 I had no chance of getting a parking space nearby that allowed me to park for 3 hours (most were 2 hour max spaces). That caused problems on a fairly regular basis, as I had quite a way to travel to get to the office and found I was driving round looking for adequate parking spaces. I also found it difficult to clean as the Solicitors had had problems with their previous cleaners so wanted me in their during office hours, and that proved impossible to clean properly as I was constantly trying to clean around peoples legs etc etc.

I also had another office job which necessitated the visit to be in the evening or weekend. So price your job to take this into account.

Really it all depends if you want to take on this type of work. I don't know what sort of reputation office cleaning companies have in your area, but I have found that I was getting quite a few calls from disgruntled office peeps who were unhappy with the cleaners they had employed, so I could have taken on quite a few office cleaning contracts. I decided, tho, that I would rather concentrate on dom cleaning as I was getting plenty of work in that area (and still am).

Before I quote anything tho, Maggie,  I would go along and price up the job accordingly.

Good luck!

Jan

[Musicman]

Maggie if you work on between 1.5 and 2x the wage rate you wont be too far out. For example £6.00 per hour wage rate would equate to between £9.00 and £12.00 per hour chargeable.

Where you pitch your figure after that depends upon the size of the contract (number of cleaners/hours/days a week etc).

Ideally avoid single cleaner contracts, anything where the shift duration is less than 2 hours, and no fewer than 5 days a week.

In your early days you may wish to take on contracts that are less than the ideal to give you a foundation to build upon.

Typically office cleaning contracts are either early morning or early evening as I'm sure you're aware so that has no impact upon the chargeable rate.

The nature of office cleaning work provides regular (daily) income which is not the case with the domestic sector - something that makes it more attractive, and therefore more competitive.

Unlesss you're bidding for a job that no-one else wants I cannot see you getting £14.00 per hour.

Good luck.

Musicman

[CMS]

Never in a million years will you get £14 per hour unless you're operating in leafy Surrey or somewhere similar.

A good rule of thumb is that the wage content of the charge should be about 60%. Certainly no less than 50%. i.e. if you are going to pay your staff £6.00 per hour you should be charging £10.00 per hour to win it on price and £12.00 per hour if you want to sell it on service (as other contractors will be charging less). This should also include the cost of your materials and equipment depreciation.

I have noticed on this forum that those in the domestic market who are wanting to make that 'leap' into the commercial sector are expecting similar profit margins. They are not there.

Your commercial cleaning portfolio should be made up of many, many,  contracts with small profit margins. These Clients should be so happy with your service that they stay with you year after year.

If you can win business with a big profit margin you are very lucky (in the short term) but that Client will not stay with you for longer than a year (even if you provide a brilliant service) as someone will come in cheaper.

Don't kid yourself that you have such a great relationship with a Client that he will stay with you whatever you charge. He won't as he has to justify his decision to spend the Company's money to his superiors.

To establish 'Solid Foundations' on which to build your business you need Clients who will stay with you for longer than a year.

Try putting up an office block on 3" footings and see what happens. It will fall over!

What you don't want to be doing is building your business from scratch every twelve months!

[Tim Downer]

Hi Maggie

Was just thinking of all the other comments on this post and what they are saying is basically correct. However, if the contract warrants 2 or maybe 3 cleaning staff, then Yes, you will get a higher markup per hour than compared with just 1 staff member at the site.

Besides, how much per hour do you actually make for yourself out of your £14 per hour charge on the Domestic side? Just make sure that you get similar results from any other work you do.

I have had contracts that I charged around £15 - £18 per hour but had 2 cleaning staff with those contracts to cost in per hour and all the rest of the expenses that you get.....

Let us all know if you get any results, because it will be another good avenue of the cleaning business to get to know and run alongside the domestic cleaning.

Kind Regards

Tim

[CMS]

Hi Maggie

Was just thinking of all the other comments on this post and what they are saying is basically correct. However, if the contract warrants 2 or maybe 3 cleaning staff, then Yes, you will get a higher markup per hour than compared with just 1 staff member at the site.

Why Tim?

[Ian Gourlay]

To clarrify would the £10 an hour charge include transport admin, marketing, ,materials, equipment depreciation etc. 

[CMS]

It would indeed..............that's why margins are low.

50 contracts making you 10% would give you a far more solid 'base' than 10 contracts making you 50%

[Tim Downer]

Hi CMS

Why?

Because i could.....!!

After I had supplied .....

* All the equipment, chemicals.
* Staffing.
* Insurances etc.
* Provided Holiday and sickness pay to all the staff.
* Provided cover when staff was sick or on holiday.
* My time to visit the site on a weekly basis.
* Profit for the business and for my wages.....

Then yes i will charge accordingly and make the money i wanted.....plus the tender pack contained all the contract, health and safety details and the usual stuff.....i provided the service a said i would and resolved any problems as quick as i could the best i could. The clients were very happy with that and I never lost any to competitors.....a fact that i was at the time very proud of.

Kind Regards

Tim

[CMS]

There is something else that nobody has mentioned when discussing margins and I think it's important.

I would like you to consider this.................

Are you winning business to provide you with a living (i.e. an income) in the short term or are you trying to build something for the future - something that has a resale value as a viable company when you retire (or earlier)?

Every contract portfolio, (whether that is your intention or not) has a resale value 'as a company' at whatever time that you want to get out.

Now........... if I was looking to buy a cleaning company which of these options do you think would be a safer financial investment?

Company number 1 - has 10 contracts each making a 50% margin. There is a large turnover of contracts because they only stay for a period of 1 year due to them having to look for savings. This company is constantly striving to replace 50 - 70% of its turnover every year.

Company number 2 - has 50 contracts each making a 10% margin. There is little turnover of contracts and 85% of them are running into their third or even fourth year of service. A small sales effort is required to replace the 15% that is lost and to build on that figure, thus increasing the turnover year upon year.

Both of the above companies have the same turnover and the same margins (although company number 2 has it spread over more contracts).

But to me, company number 2 is a far safer investment and for that reason I would have to be prepared to pay more for it!

You see guys, we are not just trying to earn an income. We are building a business that has a Capital Value. Something that we can cash in when we retire or pass on to our kids!

If that is not our eventual aim we shouldn't be working for ourselves - we may as well be working as a Cleaning Manager for someone else.

[Musicman]

I have had contracts that I charged around £15 - £18 per hour but had 2 cleaning staff with those contracts to cost in per hour

Tim are you saying that for £15 - £18 per hour you were supplying 2 cleaners - ie. £7.50-£9.00 per man hour?

I cannot understand how you have tried to qualify your answer to CMS as the list of costs is proportionate. For example if a cleaner gets through £1.00 of cleaning materials per week then a 1 cleaner job will cost £1.00 per week and a 3 cleaner job £3.00, the amount doesn't fall as the numbers increase.

If we follow your theory through you would make greater profit per chargeable hour on a 20 cleaner contract than a single one. It just doesn't happen.

Your comments about the Tender pack are irrelevant as the same pack would go out to all potential customers. How can this have an effect on increasing your chargeable rate for slightly larger jobs?

It's like anything in life; if people buy in greater quanties the price falls. Single cleaner contracts yield a greater return per chargeable hour than larger ones - but can be more hassle to run.

I respect you for not losing any contracts, and damn right you should be very proud of that fact.

Musicman

[CMS]

For those just thinking about moving into the commercial sector - a few comments about the 'type' of work to aim for.

I think Musicman touched on this subject earlier on this thread but I will try and elaborate a little ............

1. Avoid '1 cleaner jobs'. If one of your two cleaners is off sick, the other can cover it in the short term - perhaps on overtime. If you have a 1 cleaner job and she's off sick you could be in trouble.

2. Aim for work where they will give you keys to gain access. As above, if staff are off sick this gives you much more flexibility to cover the work.

3. Avoid work that requires 7 days per work cleaning i.e. Car showrooms, DIY stores etc. Just DON'T touch pubs!

4. Bank holiday cleaning is hard to cover especially over Christmas.

The ideal job...........................

A carpeted office requiring 2-3 cleaners on a Monday to Friday. Access by keys!!!

Good luck.

[Musicman]

Psst CMS don't tell everyone . You've just knocked 5% off the margins of our target business

[Fox]

Very good advice already given.  As said previously on this thread commercial work is alot more stable on income than domestic.  Contracts are in place and invoicing issued 52 weeks of the year. 

As for pub contracts - on the whole I agree generally keep away, but do ask questions before you say no.  I have had alot of opportunities to take on public houses but have chosen to only take two so far - why?  Well I get paid weekly, we are key holders so can clean anytime between 1am and 11am and my quotations do NOT include any public holidays, if they require holiday cleaning the cost doubles, plus they spend a fortune on janitorial goods.  Prehaps I'm lucky in my area also as I have a bank of staff waiting for weekend hours.  So before turning away this work ask questions first then make your decision.

In commercial cleaning large office blocks are the best, pref evening cleaning as this allows a time scale factor of morning cleaning in an emergency and it's much easier to staff.  The larger the site - the easier to run.

That's my pennies worth!
Fox

[Jan K]

Having very minimal experience in commercial cleaning compared to you other peeps who have posted replies to this one, I was probably very lucky to get away with charging the same as my dom customers, however I maintain you get what you pay for. Having said that, I took into consideration CMS's post of looking at the business from long term/short term points of view, and have to agree it it would make more sense to have more companies making a smaller profit. Surely tho you could have a bit of both types of contract??

[maggie67]

Thank you all for your input!

I am in a very affluent area so we do manage to charge higher rates, I pay my girls between £7-£8 per hour. It is hard to get good cleaners for less! I am not prepared to charge less buy paying less & providing an unsatisfactory job therefore discrediting our reputation! At present  I am not looking for commercial work for the bulk of my business. However it is something which I would consider on a long term scale as a compliment to my domestic business.

My main efforts are currently in the domestic side of cleaning, partly because most of the girls I currently employ are only available during the day and I want to walk before I can run. However this is a small 1 hour per day, 5 days per week job & requires only 1 member of staff. If they accept the quote I am prepared to give it a go and see how we get on. It may be that I can provide a more competitive quote to the same company a year down the line.

I am very at the forefront when it comes to customer communication, if in the future our services were no longer required I would ask why (from a business sense it would be mad no too!) and re-quote accordingly if it was purely due to price and if it was finacially viable to do so. Not forgetting the possibility of acquiring other contracts in the meantime.

Thanks again for all your perspectives

Maggie

[Ian Gourlay]

Thank you for the information, It must be why Joe Polish has stared clear

I can see the point about building a long term portfolio, providing costings are spot on.

[Musicman]

Ian, JP would be eaten alive in this game.

The best clean ever or your money back?

He'd be bankrupt within the week!

[Len Gribble]

Ian/Musicman

I know of one person, who has adapted JP system for their domestic business.

Len

[Musicman]

Len JP would work for domestic as his marketing strategies are aimed at that market.

I was referring to contract cleaning.

(PS, Tell Kevin I haven't forgotten the marketing stuff I'm just up to my neck in work at the moment.)

[S C Solutions]

just to have my say. i believe good contracts are built on solid honest relationships with the client. always be on their side and promptly correct any problems they have.

when i take on a new contract i issue a cleaning schedule folder which has a sheet of daily tasks for my cleaners which is signed every day by a member of staff. a sheet which is for the client to write any complaints or requests for further cleaning requirements and a sheet for my managers to do a weekly spot check and sign it off.

this works well as you can see all the problems in front of you and each day it gets signed of by a member of staff so that they can't complain the next day.

with regards to pricing here is our formula for all thoughs who struggle to price a job. EXAMPLE
1 cleaner @£6 per hour  x 58 / 52 = £6.69(this is how much a cleaner cost per hour with holidays etc)

£6.69 x 2 hours per day x 5days per week = £66.90(this is how much one cleaner cost per week)

£66.90 + £7 product and depreciation cost = £73.90

£73.90 + 35% = £99.77 per week the high margin also cover a manger for site spot checks.

[Len Gribble]

Musicman

Thanks for the wake up call on commercials been a long time since I’ve been in that game, clean to a price! Popped into one of my old commercial customers today (they did recognises me) to buy some thing prices £9.99 at checkout £4.99

Len

[CMS]

S C Solutions

Your method of a daily 'sign off' is fine using an input spec. As most companies are trying to move towards an 'output spec' there is more of a grey area.

Also, a daily sign off by the Client is far too frequent! It won't take them long to realise that it would be as easy to manage their own cleaning staff!

[Ian Gourlay]

SC solutions I noticed that you still came out at CMS £!0 an hour .

Which I think gives you a Gross Profit of 25% on turnover which  is the way my brain works as i was a retailer.

[CMS]

He did - didn't he Ian?

But the long way round 

[Musicman]

This shows that those of us that have been around for a while are fairly consistent with our pricing which reflects our understanding of the market.

Just one thing about the pricing from S C Solutions; why are you allowing 6 weeks a year paid hols?

1 cleaner @£6 per hour  x 58 / 52

[S C Solutions]

this accounts for sick days as well as holidays.

[CMS]

You pay your staff for being off sick? That's unusual?

[Tim Downer]

If you allow for sickness, which you will get, even if you don't pay the staff for the days off the money allocated covers for replacing with someone else, or if you go and do it, you can have it!

Tim

[Musicman]

By tradition the cleaning industry does not pay cleaners for being off work for sickness (unless they are entitled to SSP - in which case the money is claimed back from the Government), therefore there is no cost to the employer and nor should there be to the client.

If the hours are covered by other staff you would pay them accordingly - but this is balanced out by the saving from the original cleaner being off sick.

Of course we expect sickness but as there will not be any extra on-cost there shouldn't be a charge to the client by way of a sickness allowance.

The way that I see it is that this is a way of ripping off the client (in the case above to the tune of £200 per year per cleaner) - and I would have no hesitation in letting that client know if I saw such an outlined costing (and you'd be amazed at how many I get to see).

The subtle undermining of the existing contractor and their abilities is part of the sales process and to a predator like myself this would be manna from heaven.

It may not be your intention to con the client; perhaps this is just a mis-understanding of how to price up, or maybe some people DO actually pay for time off sick - but I have my doubts...

Have a great week everybody. 

Musicman

[CMS]

I agree Musicman....................payments for being off sick are extremely rare in this industry and if you don't intend to pass on sick pay to your staff, don't charge it to your Client. It's a total rippoff and I would also love to point it out to a Client if I saw it..................a sure contract winner for me.

I have done some consultancy work for the cleaning dept. of a large City Council over the years and they DO pay their staff sick pay. It amounts to FULL pay for the first six months of sickness and HALF pay for the second six months. The problem is that they have 35% of their staff off ill at any one time. When you combine this with the need to carry out CRB checks (taking ages to process) you have nightmare of a situation staffing buidings.

This is a problem that they have inherited over the years and which they are trying to phase out. You can't, of course, just change peoples 'Terms and Conditions' so in cases like this you normally find half of the employees on an 'Old Contract' and new starters on a 'New Contract' with different 'T's and C's'.

If big organisations like this are trying to phase out 'Sick Pay' why on earth would the smaller companies try to introduce it (Tim)?

My view is that it shouldn't be paid.

[craig b]

IT LOOKS LIKE USE ONLY CARE AOUT YOUS SELFS AND THE "CLIENTS".
NEVER MIND ONES WHO DO THE WORK.
ITS A GOOD IDEA TO PAY STAFF AT LEAST A WEEKS FULL SICK PAY ,
IF THEY OUR GENUINELY SICK.
IT DOESNT WORK IN BIG COMPANYS BECAUSE IT GETS ABUSED .

I KNOW WHO I WOULD RATHER WORK FOR !

[dustycorner]

Hi Criag,

IT LOOKS LIKE USE ONLY CARE AOUT YOUS SELFS AND THE "CLIENTS".
NEVER MIND ONES WHO DO THE WORK.

To my mind they are the only two people to care about, we provide staff with jobs for which they get paid. We owe staff nothing more than to provide adequate training, support, equipment and materials to carry out the duties they are employed for.

Has for ssp if a employee earn less than £75 per week they are not entitled to ssp recently told this by acas.

There are no friends in business especially with employees, they soon drop you if something else appears on the horizon.

Cheers Mark.

[S C Solutions]

just to set the record straight. i run a small set-up with aprox 24 full time staff. most of these have been with me since the start and some even worked for nothing in the early days when i started. so i will always look after these loyal work conscious freinds and employees. if they look after me i look after them.

[craig b]

Mark i agree they will go some were better , some were that has better insentives like paid sick , bonus scheme, good training, and were the employee enjoys working. it is horses for courses .
what ever works for you .
some one shouldnt get slated for looking after his employees.

dont  pay them when they are of sick but the one who dont take any sick all year round you should show them some appreciation .

I WOULDNT PAY SOME ONE IF THEY ARE OF SICK BUT I WILL GIVE A BRUCIE AT THE END OF WEEK.

Iam only at the point of taken someone on but do believe in team work not
 me. me.me..me. as i said what ever works for you.

On the main subject i do some office cleaning every two weeks for some customers and i think it pays well
between £18 and £28  they take between 20 and 40 minutes
do them in the morning then go to other job .they do nicely for filling in gaps

[CMS]

IT DOESNT WORK IN BIG COMPANYS BECAUSE IT GETS ABUSED .

 

That was the whole point of my post Craig.

So, I presume that you want to stay 'small' so that you can continue to act as a charity not as a business. If you intend to 'grow' you will need to treat all employees the same.

And by the way, I don't mean to be rude................I'm just a realist..............(having already been there and made the mistakes). 

[CMS]

Incidentally, some years ago I used to operate an 'attendance bonus' scheme (with the full co-operation of the Client).

We paid £4.00 per hour (which was allowed at the time) PLUS a 50 pence per hour 'attendance bonus'. If the employee had any time off at all during a particular month they forfieted their whole months bonus.

So, when they looked out of the window in the morning and it was raining they thought twice about taking the time off. On a 2 hour per day shift non attendance could cost them £28.00 NOT £8.00!

There were ABSOLUTELY NO EXCEPTIONS (Not even funerals) and the Client was happy for this to be built into the cost which ensured that they had a cleaner every day.

The cleaners viewed the bonus as a 'perk' of the job. They did not view its deduction as a 'penalty'.

[Ian Gourlay]

So the cleaning industry expects its staff to come in all though they are half dead, and are the type of people who cannot afford to loose the money when they are sick.

Why  to keep the cost down so companies are able to make huge profits and pay the directors bonus and share option.

No wonder we have Hospital aquired infections and sick building syndrome.

I do realise it is the way of the World and if I was a contractor and did not have to I would not pay sick pay, holiday pay, etc as I would have to compete agaiinst those that do not, however I see no reason why cleaners should not have the same working rights as other employees in the organization that they work with.

As a local Councillor I am disapointed with the Council mentioned in the post that is taking this away from its in House cleaning staff,

Although this will relieve the preasure on Council Tax, why should the cleaner be treated diffrently fom the receptionist,

[Fox]

With respect to sick pay there are many factors to take into consideration.  Within the cleaning industry most employees are part time working approx 2 hours per day Monday to Friday to supplement their main income, which provide them with sick pay. 

A cost of sickness can not be built into a quotation.  How would you estimate how many hours per year someone may or may not take off sick?  Full time employees have a right to SSP but even this is not as simple as it seems as it is not all reclaimable from the government, you can only claim if it amounts to over 13% (the % may now have changed) of your total payroll.

It is not just in the cleaning industry where it is common not to pay sick pay but in many others such as the care sector for instance.  Go ask on the window cleaning and carpet cleaning sections who gets sick pay?  So that adds those who are self employed too.

It would be nice to think that my divs etc will be better because I don't pay sick pay, the fact of the matter is the money is just not there in the first place!  There are plenty of honest hard working people out there who will not take days off unless genuine however for every one of them there are many others who will take time off for anything, because it is raining, because it is sunny, because they have a hangover, because they need to go shopping, I could go on!

As an employer I do not feel I should be accountable for peoples health, I already pay holiday pay, employers NIC and bonuses.  If my employees are ill they have the option of taking holiday pay or making up the hours if there is availability elsewhere.

Fox


 

[CMS]

Well said Fox!

Ian............I don't think the Council cleaners should be treated differently than the receptionist either.....neither of them should get sick pay.

It's a fact of life that when you pay sick pay the level of sickness goes up. That particular council I was talking about has in excess of 35% of its staff off sick at any one time. It's outrageous!! Take the sick pay away and many would instantly get better. And..................there is a pattern to it...................

It's amazing how more people are sick in the school holidays etc. and of course when the sun is shining.

We have developed a culture where everyone wants something for nothing and councils (and therefore their Councillors) must carry a big part of the blame. It's easy to see why, of course, because it is not their money they are giving away - it's ours!

Only today in The Mail there is an article about how Royal Mail have given their postmen a £12,000 car for turning up to work every day for six months!!!!

If you are a Cleaning Contractor competing in a commercial environment there is an easy way to see whether or not you should be paying sick pay............

When you are competing for a contract try saying this to your prospective Client......

"I'd like to be able to pay my staff for not coming into work when they feel unwell. Yes, I know it will increase my absenteeism (and therefore my costs) but I'd like to be able to pass this cost onto you, if that's OK"

You will be shown the door pretty sharpish., I'm sure.

You see, Ian, we as Contractors can't tell our Clients that must pay for people to be off sick. You as a Local Councillor CAN do that. You just put our Council Tax up to cover it.

Local Councillors who spend OUR money in such a haphazard way make my blood boil - they really do!

[garyj]

Ian, as a local councillor you will know that the government sector has the highest amount of sick days of any business. I would suggest that this is due to many people who take sick days as a perk and extended holidays. I know that many government employees even have a rota and work out between them when they are going to be sick.

How many days off sick do the self employed have??? Err not many at all, in fact I can't even remember ever having a day off due to  sickness since I've been my own boss!

The amount of times I've been left in the lurch due to someone calling in sick at the last min is staggering.

[dustycorner]

Hi Criag,

With reference to your point about getting good training elsewhere, you make the assumption its not being provided on which you are wrong. Secondly i would take my training regime over a multinational like Tesco any day. See how much time they devote to training their cashiers normally 2 hours with a folder referring to thier products and then shoved onto a till, smacks of being professional that.

I may sound harsh in my previous post but wait to you have someone ringing you 5 minutes before  work phoning sick and your struggling to get cover or you suspect its not genuine. I f your employees teach you anything it will be to develop a thick skin and be cynical.

Cheers Mark.

[craig b]

As i said mark what ever works for you !
I can read you did say about your training that your employee must get down on ther knees and thank you for and be  grateful that you have given them a job .
And To be honest i do want to stay small in business
I dont want to be the next richard brason i just want to earn a good living so i dont have to work for people like you .

CHEERS!

[dustycorner]

Craig,

you make too many assumptions about myself and my business. I employ people they get a fair wage for which i expect a fair level of competence, attendance and performance. As for making staff down on their knees grateful for their jobs that comment is uncalled for. The last employee i helped couldnt read or write she now is attending learn direct to address this issue, so understand my slight irritation at your assumption that with staff us employers treat it like a one way street.

Also i don't understand your comment about not  being next richard branson thought that why we all went into business for ourselves.

Cheers Mark

[Ian Gourlay]

None of you have considered the point, that when staff report to work sick they often have an infectious illness which will spread through the entire company thus harming  productivity.

Companies and organizations that pay staff when off sick should have in place procedures for monitoring absence.

Staff should be interviewed on their return and a record filed.

I wonder if that Council and Royal Mail have these procedures in place or was it just a case of Morning Bill Glad to see you are back are you alright?



Regarding the Self Employed they do have  the option of taking out insurance  to cover loss of income while off sick and charge it as an expense.

[CMS]

Companies and organizations that pay staff when off sick should have in place procedures for monitoring absence.

Staff should be interviewed on their return and a record filed.

I wonder if that Council and Royal Mail have these procedures in place or was it just a case of Morning Bill Glad to see you are back are you alright?

That Council (and Royal Mail) have a scheme for 'Sickness Monitoring' (notice that it isn't called sickness counselling - another case of political correctness gone mad) but because they have it in place it needs to be included in the Employee Handbook and the staff 'work' it like true professionals!

They know WHEN they can go sick, HOW LONG they can take off etc. before it starts to impact on their conduct record. It is wide open to abuse!

There is a 'Return to Work' interview of course.

What I have found recently is that there are more people who use 'stress' as a reason for being off sick. They know that this is something that can't be 'seen' by anyone.

I'm now going to give you two REAL examples that I was involved with in the last two years whilst doing consultancy work for 'that' Council and yes, Royal Mail.

1. An employee of the council was off work for two weeks during the school holidays. The managers 'guidance notes' suggest that they be phoned at home to see how they are, to offer any help and to try and establish when they will be back. This happened, only for the employee to claim that it was harrassment. The union were involved and there was a serious possibility of a strike which would mean disruption to services and schools closing. The manager was made to apologise and the employee had a further 12 months off work. As soon as the 'Sick Pay' finished that employee made a remarkable recovery.

2. A Royal Mail cleaner (with 17 years service) had been found out claiming unauthorised payments for a period of 4 years. The total amount that she had claimed was in excess of £5,000. (Technically it was theft). It was my duty to interview her about this. All procedures were followed and the CWU (union) were involved. I was told by the union that I should have spotted earlier that she was being dishonest and because I didn't it was MY FAULT! The next day that cleaner went sick with stress (so that she could not be interviewed further) but she was not too stressed to be seen out on the town drinking (when she should have been at work). This dragged on for six months and eventually she applied for, and received Early Voluntary Redundancy with a payoff of £23,000!

This is the sort of abuse I am talking about!

[Jan K]

Just to put my 2 pence worth in, my partner works in the Semiconductor industry where if an employee is off sick they lose their shift allowance but not their basic pay.

Also each time they have time off sick they are penalised on a points system (Bradford Index). Can't remember exactly how many points they receive for being off sick but it is the same amount regardless of how many or few days they take off. When they return to work after their period of sickness they receive a Back To Work interview where they are asked if they intend taking any more time off sick (stupid I know), amongst other questions. If their index goes above 100 in a period of a year they are given a warning.......you know how it goes then....verbals, written, out!!

But even this system is prone to abuse and all they guys and gals in his workplace know how to work it.

Staff sickness is something we all have to contend with and we all have to deal with it in whatever way is correct at that time. Personally I won't tolerate unreliability and my (4) staff know this, but I am pretty easy going and I do show them appreciation for their work and they know that if they work hard, stick by me and are loyal when the business is booming (note I said when and not if) they will be rewarded financially. At the moment I can only reward them with works of thanks and appreciation and being their for them as best I can.

They also know that if they need time off, even short notice, I am happy to let them have it as I am now in a position to step in at the last minute.

I make sure I keep all of them informed of what is happening in the business and as long as they and my Clients are happy and contented (which they are at present), everything else is a bonus. I personally think that you have to make yourself approachable to your staff so that they can talk to you about anything......finding that happy medium between being their boss and their friend is hard, but I have managed to do that with the girls I have with me at the moment.

Having said that we are still a 'baby' company and things will ultimately change as and when we get bigger, and I may not always have the time to listen to what they need and want to talk to me about whether good things or bad (but I certainly will try hard to give them the time they need).

Sometimes I wonder if I really want to become a huge multi million company (would be nice to be loaded) but I don't want to 'lose my way' which can so easily happen.

Sorry got off the point a bit there (ha nothing changes)

[Tim Downer]

Hi Gang

Well this posting has gotten big!

What was the original question about?

Everyone has had their pennies worth to put in.....and although many are different none of you are wrong.....

If you want to look after your staff by training them to make sure they do the work for you properly and to a high standard, and you want to pay them sick pay / sickness allowance or whatever, and pay them holiday pay etc and give them bonuses.....well good for you and all the best in your business and running it the way you want to - as long as you are making your wages too that is.

If you couldn't give a monkey about your staff and don't wish to pay them sick pay or holiday pay and you are making money for yourselves then good luck to you too.....

Personnally speaking (or writing...) the latter doesn't suit me.....We use the Bradford Index for sickness and have in place procedures for the interview when they return to work.

However, since October last year none of my staff have had any time off due to sickness as of yet!.....Could this be because i make sure the staff are looked after?

I would have to agree with Jan's comments above this post, as i treat my staff the same as she seems to....but it works for us.

Anyway.....what was the original question on this posting??

All the best to you all out there.....whatever your thoughts on the above

Tim

[Ian Gourlay]

 I found CMS reply very interesting. Seems to be a growing industry at present in local government, bringing in the consultants.

However his case study was very interesing.

Would like to ask more but we are off topic, and members of the public can look in and I might get charged a consultancy fee. :

[blacksheep]

hi all i agree with cms .craig is very nieave or just very lucky , iam a cleaning manager and in one year i have gone from been like and thinking like craig to been just like cms. i have had cleaners ringing up saying their hubby is in intensive care and on his death bed ,then what do you know, the old boy rings up on her behalf the next day, saying she is sick bring in sick notes ect, then i go to bingo wtyhmother in law ,same night and their sitting there fAg in mouth, a pint of  larger in frount of them playing bingo but very red faced after a while you know the ones who are sick or not