[Timmy Boy]

Morning all
I have just started a contract where all the altro antislip flooring in the canteen, shower rooms & toilets has been sealed using high traffic polish. Is it me or is this the most craziest thing you have ever heard! Admittdley they have employed direct so they are not very up on correct cleaning methods (ie using the same mop in the loos as the canteen - YUK!)
I could be wrong and this is a good way to keep altro looking clean but I thought it deafeats the object of the floor being antislip? Has anyone seen this done before?
Regards
Tim

[Neil Mc Anulty]

Timmy
I vaguely remember reading this before.I think You lose 10-15% of your non slip properties when the polish has been applied, check out the altro site.
 What methods would you use to maintain Altro?

[Robert Parry]

Client could be in trouble if anyone slips on this floor, putting a polish on this type of floor does indeed reduce it's anti-slip properties.

I would also point this out to your client asap, if you have just taken over the contract it is conceivable, that if something were to happen, you could be held responsible for improper maintenance!

Whoever made the decision to put polish on this floor has also shot any guarantee that may be outstanding on the floor, never let anyone tell you that anti-slip properties are unimportant on floors.

Regards,

Rob

[Fox]

Of course anti slip is important and putting polish on altro does reduce the anti slip properties - I think it is by about 30% but personally I have no problem polishing an altro floor if a risk assessment has first been carried out and the client is in agreement after being made fully aware of the cons.

I hate altro flooring and think that in the right circumstances the polish helps to maintain it.  On the sites that are not suitable for polish a once a fortnight rotary scrub is a must.

So in my opinion - no it's not the craziest thing I have ever heard!

Fox

[Robert Parry]

Fox,

After putting polish on an altro floor, if there was a slip or trip at some later date, which insurance company would be liable? Your's or the client's?

Only asked to do this once myself, a few years ago now, but refused because of the increased slip hazard, this was also in a shower room, where I believe, the slip hazard to be a very real possibility.

I can see that putting polish on the floor to seal it will impact on maintence, but dont you think the Health & Safety concerns outweigh this?

It seems that this is another case of the client not understanding the full impact of their decisions, and not being given the correct advice by their own contractor, although in this case the cleaning was carried out in-house, whoever was in charge obviously has limited experience within the field of cleaning.

Regards,

Rob

[Billy Russell]

i agree with fox there are certain areas that you can put a coat of emulsion polish on the flooring yes you do lose some of its slip resistants so i wouldn't recommend it for showers! follow tims advice and check out there website they actually recommend it in certain areas

[gerrystyles]

We have been asked in the past to seal Altro but have always declined.

a) whats the point of sealing Altro? - (to avoid time and effort of maintaining it correctly)

b) if altro is sealed why have it in the first place? all that happens then is that the slip resistance is greatly reduced especially in showers

I would get your client to agree to have the seal removed asap. The implications of a claim could be significant as can the possibility of a prosecution

[trevor perry]

one of our clients has altro floor and the men using it wear big black boots we ended up scrubbing floor weekly due to scuff marks from boots which couldnt be removed any other way .  we tried one room with a single coat of emulsion floor polish the scuff marks still appeared but can be removed with a mop we now only scrub the floor and reseal every 3 months .
   i think a lot of companys are badly advised into laying altro flooring as it is a pig to maintain .
                                             

[martin19842]

hi there.
you should never seal altro, it is a water absorbent flooring, 

regards

martin

[Fox]

I always tell companies to try to choose a different type of anti slip flooring than altro as I find it a nightmare to clean.

Gerrystyles -

whats the point of sealing Altro? - (to avoid time and effort of maintaining it correctly)

Do you actually do commercial cleaning? 

I am lucky to have one of my clients who has an altro floor that is not suitable for sealing pay extra to have the cleaners use a rotary machine and wet vac to keep it clean, but most clients (well aware of the risks) in a warehouse office environment would opt for sealing of the floor rather than up their cleaning budget for the extra cleaning and yes you can refuse, but the next contractor won't and I for one would not lose a job through refusal to seal an altro floor when the anti slip is not essential.  (This is putting it ott but nevertheless).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with sealing an altro floor with emulsion polish in certain areas where a risk assessment has been carried out  and agreement from the client knowing all the risks has been sought.

Fox 

[DP]

Having already been involved in a slip claim where someone broke their arm on wet carpets in the middle of a demo by a national carpet machine manufacturer (not Prochem), I am now almost paranoid on the subject as you would imagine.

However there seems to be two sides to this issue. Of course you shouldn’t bring about an increased possibility of hazard, that’s common sense if that’s what your action would  cause? The only way to know is to carry out a risk assessment as Fox mentioned, that’s what they are for. If on the other hand we didn’t bring about any risk at all, we could never clean i.e. wet a carpet, mop a floor, trail a hoover cable etc etc.

Therefore some risks are acceptable because it may be the only practical or economical way to achieve or maintain something.  In the case of flooring the HSE are well aware of the problems when floors aren’t maintained at all, and if the reason was because of high cost (as in manufacturers service costs), then they would have expected them to have found another way, albeit not to the point where a slip would be imminent, but that’s not what we are talking about here are we.

Building usage, types of foot traffic etc etc change all the time and its very difficult to debate this as a general issue without reference to any one particular instance. Either way an Altro floor even with polish will maintain significantly more grip then many other surfaces you can find often in the same building.

If you want the work then a risk assessment is the only way which should include asking questions, personally viewing the type of foot traffic, assessing slip issues like water food or grease etc etc and finally reviewing the manufacturers specs. 

If in doubt... Test It    

[Mike_Boxall]

Hi

Altro shouldn't be sealed or polished. The reason it gets sealed or polished is usually becuase it's not being cleaned properly and a shiny dirty floor is often more acceptable to the client than a dull dirty floor.

Using a rotary or steam cleaner is the best way - mopping (because it's rarely done properly) justs leaves a film of dirty water on the surface that creates a build-up of dirt over time.

Get a demo of something like a Multiwash http://www.express-cleaning-supplies.co.uk/oos/scrubberdryers/557601.html or an Osprey Steam Cleaner  http://www.express-cleaning-supplies.co.uk/oos/drysteamcleaners/536118.html to see how good they can look.

Regards

Mike

[DP]

There we go, £1,500.00 plus vat
Problem solved!

Unless of course you dont have £1,500.00 to spend then I guess its back to the mops for you  and of course this topic 

[Billy Russell]

Mike,

Your quite right rotary or steam is the best way but not every contract will pay for the time or cost involved! But i've owned a couple of multiwash's and there ok for floors with light use but anything with heavy traffic they just can't cope!! Give me a Karcher BR400 anytime! Now thats the machine to own and its cheaper!!!

[Robert Parry]

I find it interesting, and a little worrying, that no one has actually expressed an opinion on who the liability would rest with ie. the contractor or the client if there was an incident concerning a polished altro floor.

Each post has raised important issues, but not THE most important, yes Risk Assessments are required, by law, but it seems to me that by putting polish on an altro floor, that has been specified in order to minimize the slip hazard in a particular area you risk rendering that Risk Assessment null and void. In fact I think that you risk being accused of ignoring completely the risk assessment.

Under H & S legislation, we have a duty, a legal duty, to minimise the risk, by putting polish on altro flooring, we would be increasing the risk, not minimising it. A defence of the client wants it to look cleaner, is in my opinion, no defence at all.

Again, it comes down to education, we are supposed to be the experts here, very rarely does the client have any more than cursory knowledge of cleaning, if I was the client, and an accident did occur, the first words out of my own mouth would be"We employ contractors who are experts in this field to do our cleaning, they have supplied us with the relevant Risk Assessments/Method Statements etc, surely it is they who should have pointed this risk out to us, as this is supposedly their area of expertise"

Again, the defence of we could'nt afford it, or if I didnt comply with the client's request, someone else would have, is not really a valid defence, it would be useful to find out the insurance companies point of view on this.

Regards,

Rob

[patrickfarrington]

Altro floor

To seal or not to seal - ASK THE MANUFACTURER - THEN ANY PROBLEMS AFTERWARDS IS DOWN TO THEM-  if they say you can seal, but get it in writing

[Mr BSF]

Mike,

Your quite right rotary or steam is the best way but not every contract will pay for the time or cost involved! But i've owned a couple of multiwash's and there ok for floors with light use but anything with heavy traffic they just can't cope!! Give me a Karcher BR400 anytime! Now thats the machine to own and its cheaper!!!

Hi Will,

A truvox multi wash (240) is £650- £700, the br400 is £1200- £1300, it is a good/better machine but not cheaper, unless you know something I dont if so please give me the number.

The above are ok, but the main downfall is the cord, a battery powered machine is far better.

regards

BSF

PS: Just so I can put in my 2 pennys worth, any safety flooring is called this for a reason, if it is cleaned correctly/regularly their wont be a problem.

[martin19842]

hi there

who's responsible??  for a n accident

dont seal it in the firstplace and any cleaner who did seal it or polish it, ahouldnt be in the business.

and any floor that is already sealed, needs to be tripped, scrubbd and neutralised immediately.

regards

martin

[Robert Parry]

I know this is off topic, but BSF's reccomendation about battery powered machinery interests me, recently looked at this option for a daytime cleaning operation, but after a demo from my local supplier decided not to go ahead due to the poor battery life, the machinery also did not appear to do a very good job compared to standard machinery, just wondering if you know something that I dont, you can e-mail privately if you want.

Regards,

Rob

[DP]

Ok we can address liability, that’s easy. The first line of liability will always fall to the client ie the party responsible for the building. Only then will their insurers decide if there is a viable counter claim against the contractors and in the event that it was proven negligent or wilful may it then progress to personal liability.

Buildings are maintained on cost and will always determine varying levels of safety for its occupants, that’s why we have legislation to maintain a minimum level which is why we still have accidents, what else did you think it was “bad luck”?

There simply is no argument where a safety surface has been laid for a specific reason such as a factory, workshop or area of high risk. However not all safety floors are required especially in many public areas hallways offices, receptions etc. Many buildings have change of use where safety floors are simply left because its more economical to do so and there is virtually zero legislation on it as well. That’s why we still see stone, plastic, wood, vinyl and an array of floor tiles being installed into new buildings and high traffic areas.

How many floors have you laid polish on that were actually designed for liquid emulsion polish? You wont need two hands to count. So are we saying that all those thousands of litre's of polish being sold every year are only being applied to specifically manufactured and approved surfaces for the use of polish.....don’t be daft. Unless your drinking the stuff, we have all been compromising floor surfaces on a daily basis for years haven’t we?

Yes it maybe that “if we clean it properly we shouldn’t need to use polish” and if you can get somebody to pay for it then that’s great. So lets all throw away those nasty things called mops and spend thousands of pounds on machines instead, Mike expect the flood of orders. I think I need 15 to start that should save me a bit in polish!

Isn’t ideology great...... Martin I see that bubble hasn’t burst yet then  

Robert, the risk assesment would be for the polish, you cant ignore it.... it is it. If the floor is a high risk area, you dont do it thats the point! I dont know about the expert thing, I would love to sell myself that way, but couldnt afford the additional public liabilty and proffesionl indemnity insurance, Im happy just being a contractor and not a target.