[Roland S]

hi

i've got to clean a load of railings near to the sea that have salt crusted onto them (so i'm told although it looks like corrosion from the pic). the railings i'm told are plastic coated rather than painted. i've been asked to pressure wash them to remove it, but if it is just crusted on salt i think the pressure washer may be overkill. i'm guessing hot water should shift it if it is just salt, but has anyone got any other suggestions - maybe a chemical i can wipe on - other than that.

i'm going to have a look at it in person and do a test clean next week but wanted to go along prearmed with some ideas.

anyone done anything like this before?

[chris scott]

Tel 01704 880 800 ask for John. Tell him you have spoke to me....this will get you a discount!  I ....think...... the product is Salt neutraliser he makes it in his shed.

[BDCS]

Just because its by the sea it does not mean its salt. They could well be powder coated aluminium and the white powder is oxidation. Galvanised steel can also look like this when it starts to corrode. You need to start by finding out what material it is - so get a magnet and its steel if it sticks or if not its  -----. the grey post next to the black rail looks like galvanised steel

[chris scott]

It is oxidation ...it will look like a white chalky powder. I think you will find the the coating has failed .
Rub it down  , neutralize it , paint it . We tend to us rustoleum ... http://www.rustoleum.com/ . I  have in the past cleaned and painted a lot of cast iron (Southport is a seaside resort ....cast iron rusts as soon as you look at it!) with Rustoleum products. You need to use there whole process for best results ie primer ,undercoat etc

[BDCS]

Make your mind up !

[Kev Martin]

Go and look at it first and decide how it got there!!!  Look for tell tale signs because if it's on the railings then it will ddefinately be on the tile and grout below.  It could be caused through several different reasons i.e.it could be airborne and just salts drying on the surface or it could be through oxidisation.  Establish firstly what it is and how it is being caused then decide on the solution.   It could mean anything from a warm wash with a diluted mild phosphoric acid to a full rub down, undercoat and repaint.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics ltd

[chris scott]

Make your mind up !

Did not know i had changed it . I would hazard a guess that the "salt" is Zinc carbonate ....it needs neutralising before you could repaint. I would reiterate that if inspected the protective coating  has failed.

[BDCS]

Not if the metal is aluminium. Magnet test first then advise from this result - without your just guessing -- oh you did and that guess was the galv had corroded and you previously guessed your mates shed mixed salt remover would rectify the issue. Do you really get salt near the sea  I must have forgot I can see the sea from my house 

[chris scott]

Not if the metal is aluminium. Magnet test first then advise from this result - without your just guessing -- oh you did and that guess was the galv had corroded and you previously guessed your mates shed mixed salt remover would rectify the issue. Do you really get salt near the sea   I must have forgot I can see the sea from my house  

Ally on a domestic property...I doubt it due to manufacturing/material cost. I could be wrong....i have been before but thats how I learn. Sticking with corroding mild steel ...Carl would you care for a wager on the outcome? Maybe £20 or £50

[BDCS]

I don't gamble especially old folks pensions.  Powder coated aluminium is getting very common especially where automated closers are used. You know as well as I do when the OP finds out what the material is then the type of oxidation and hence a form of remedy can be suggested. Aluminuim is specified on new buildings to comply with manual handling regs,  RAMS and if being plastic coated, resistance to corrosion. Powder coated does this after time.
Why are you always being a smart arspe

[Roland S]

well i had a look and it seems to rub off with a wet rag and lots of elbow grease leaving the underneath coating unaffected so maybe it is salt. i didn;t have a magnet with me so i'll check that for you when i go back. with that in mind i'm thinking just some very hot soapy water and lots of scrubbing may be enough what do you think?

[BDCS]

If its steel paint the areas with galvafroid or smooth hammerite after cleaning. Keep your magnet on the roof of the van - I have a strip of fridge door which is also handy to post notices on steel doors, fire escapes and even railings should they not be wood aluminium or other non ferrous materials ( small print for those nit pickers ).

[chris scott]

I am wrong again!
Is there " sea salt" stuck to any other surface near to it...lamp post ,hand rails etc. I would assume that the "sea salt" would be stuck to everything and not just the black powder coated balustrade.

[B Bailey]

Are you going to clean that wall and path aswell 

[BDCS]

Salt obviously only sticks to vertical surfaces and would never settle on a horizontal one

[Kev Martin]

I am wrong again!
Is there " sea salt" stuck to any other surface near to it...lamp post ,hand rails etc. I would assume that the "sea salt" would be stuck to everything and not just the black powder coated balustrade.

Chris

Sea salt doesn't dissovle.  When sea spray is picked by high winds and rain which travels miles depending on the force of the wind.  It hits surfaces, the rain and sea water evaporates and you are left with mineral salt which in that form mixed with chloride ions is a perfect fast acting corrosive on all surfaces Horizontal, Vertical, moving or stationary.

Kev Martin
Tiliong Logistics Ltd

[chris scott]

I am wrong again!
Is there " sea salt" stuck to any other surface near to it...lamp post ,hand rails etc. I would assume that the "sea salt" would be stuck to everything and not just the black powder coated balustrade.

Chris

Sea salt doesn't dissovle.  When sea spray is picked by high winds and rain which travels miles depending on the force of the wind.  It hits surfaces, the rain and sea water evaporates and you are left with mineral salt which in that form mixed with chloride ions is a perfect fast acting corrosive on all surfaces Horizontal, Vertical, moving or stationary.

Kev Martin
Tiliong Logistics Ltd

Actually sea salt does dissolve in water to a point of saturation although no true chemical transformation takes place. Hence the sea salt is recovered in its original form when evaporation of the solvent takes place...in this instance water.
This was not my point in the post. I suggested that it was corrosion that was taking place. Given the fact that the "sea salt " was only to be found on the handrail. If it was in fact "sea salt " i would assume that it would be found on other objects in the area. Hence i asked the question "Is there " sea salt" stuck to any other surface near to it...lamp post ,hand rails etc. I would assume that the "sea salt" would be stuck to everything and not just the black powder coated balustrade."

[Kev Martin]

Chris

What is it with you?  Why do you have to be so pedantic?  My post is a general post for all to read!  If I had wanted to make it technical for a forensic chemist to read I could have but whats the point?  So I will say it again sea salt doesn't dissolve (Or for Chris it dissolves and then hardens again).  So there will be Mineral Salts everywhere, pavements, curbs, bushes , tiles, cars, windows, walls and roofs to name a few.  It is just more evident and visible on the black railings.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[chris scott]

Chris

What is it with you?  Why do you have to be so pedantic?  My post is a general post for all to read!  If I had wanted to make it technical for a forensic chemist to read I could have but whats the point?  So I will say it again sea salt doesn't dissolve (Or for Chris it dissolves and then hardens again).  So there will be Mineral Salts everywhere, pavements, curbs, bushes , tiles, cars, windows, walls and roofs to name a few.  It is just more evident and visible on the black railings.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

Ok
Sorry for being pedantic...I just think most of your post is crap.

[Kev Martin]

Chris

I am really hurt by your comments!  I won't sleep tonight now knowing what you reaslly think of me

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Limited

[chris scott]

Don't take it to heart ....I don't think you are crap. Some of you posts are really informative . Just this one is crap.....and the one about my numatic vac capacity  not being big enough for cleaning gutters and the one that you prefer to use a  "Klindex Rocky and fit it with Soft to Med Brush and aqua mix heavy duty tile and grout" to clean block paving driveways ....but thats  personal preference.

[Kev Martin]

[quote author=chris scott link=topic=177288.msg1501022#msg1501022 date=1382091experience?Don't take it to heart ....I don't think you are crap. Some of you posts are really informative . Just this one is crap.....and the one about my numatic vac capacity  not being big enough for cleaning gutters and the one that you prefer to use a  "Klindex Rocky and fit it with Soft to Med Brush and aqua mix heavy duty tile and grout" to clean block paving driveways ....but thats  personal preference.
[/quote]

Chris
Actually it's not personal preference in my case all posts are facts based on experience of trying it all against each different method.  Have you ever used a Klindex Rocky?  Is your pressure washer 300 bar with 90c and a 30"FSC with Vacuum take off?  Because these are the two methods I tried against each other!  As for the Numatic I have tried yours have you tried mine? All my posts are based on experience in real life not hearsay or what I think.

Kevin Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[chris scott]

So as I am new to the game ...I phone you up and explain I wish to start a driveway cleaning business. You explain to me that independent tests undertaken by yourself indicate that the Klindex Rocky is the tool for the job.  Is that what you would sell me?
I also struggle to understand why I need such a large (storage) capacity machine for gutter cleaning.... How many gutters or driveways have you actually cleaned with the methods or equipment you advocate?

[Kev Martin]

So as I am new to the game ...I phone you up and explain I wish to start a driveway cleaning business. You explain to me that independent tests undertaken by yourself indicate that the Klindex Rocky is the tool for the job.  Is that what you would sell me?
I also struggle to understand why I need such a large (storage) capacity machine for gutter cleaning.... How many gutters or driveways have you actually cleaned with the methods or equipment you advocate?

Chris

Don't take it to heart but don't knock something either until you have tried it!  I have no idea about you or your business or how long you have been doing it!  All I am saying is everyone finds a niche market and having tried every different sort of cleaning of any hard floors we find the most versatile machine is a Mono Rotary machine (Albeit it does not have to be a Klindex Rocky).  Naturally we sell Klindex equipment as does Amir Patwa in London and there are lots of people on this Forum have bought from him as well.  But none of this is the point!  I get CC's ringing me every week saying if I come on one of your Hard Floor Courses what equipment will I need and my answer is always the same.  A Slow Speed Mono Rotary and a Wet Vac (No names mentioned I never say a Rocky and one of my Wet Vacs)  This means that a CC for example is then set up with the exception of a few small bits and pieces for very little money to start cleaning Hard Floors (Albeit Mainly Inside but including Patios and Drives if Necessary!  If I said you have to buy a pressure washer and an FSC sure they could clean a patio or a drive but look at the mess it makes without Vacuum take off! Then they would still need a Rotary and a Wet Vac for inside!   Even you have to agree with this!  Now to the 50% of CC's who tell me they could use their HFW and or an SX12 or similar with either their portable or TM  this is all well and good but carpets don't produce Slurry or Bits of grit and stone do they so IMHO eventually this type of cleaning could potentially wreck a decent portable or TM.

Now to our experience,  I have lost count of how many drives we have cleaned but we no longer do them because we found they are not financially viable unless you get 2 or 3 in one street.  As for gutters about 10 before we decided it was also not worth it FOR US.  We specialised about 5 years ago in Petrol Station Forecourts which we did do with Falch Pressure washers T3 & T2 fitted with Mosmatic 21" and 30" Scaters (FSC).  But my experience is not the point you need to think about my posts and read them twice I didn't say there was anything wrong with your Vac in either size or capacity what I said was it was not as big and powerful as the ones we use thats all.  Personally I don't care what anyone else uses but the point I was trying to make is when you have a standard pressure washer with a normal FSC it will not get the drive as clean as a Mono Rotary with the correct brush fitted to it because they are two different types of cleaning Pressure V Mechanical.  Having decided this I then decided to compare a good powerful Rotary (That was a Wirbel at the time) against the best I had at the time and the Mono Rotary did a better job!  You also have to admit there are very few people on here with a few exceptions who even have 300 Bar + and Heat.  The Mono Rotary is Slower but better,  less clean up and on block drives it only pulls out about 10% of what a pressure washer does.  So you save on resanding and also don't need 1000's of litres of water with you with a rotary!

Finally I have sold all my Falchs now that was 2 x T3's and a T2 but there are times I miss them because when on the seldom occasions we are quiet I have missed a couple of potential large jobs because my Honda is not big enough.  But I am seriously considering buying a Falch T5 that I have been offered.  I just have to think if I can justify £16K because I also want a Klindex 1000 Expander.

P.S.  I have never cleaned a carpet in my life so all references to CC's are hearsay from guys I have had on courses!

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Rob_Mac]

Kevin

I don't know why you bother!

Rob

[G O Cleaning]

Kevin,
You had a similar post some time back ( 6 mths ?) in ref to cleaning block paving, several of us questioned the logic of using a rotary on block paving instead of pressure washing.
 I must say we have been cleaning drives for over 10 years I have never heard of anyone else cleaning a block paved drive using your method.
I can see your logic for 'paved' patios to a certain degreee but not for block paving. I did find it amusing on the other post - ' Brick cleaning'  the op would need to apply akaline + honing powder and still after that expense / x time they may have revert to         .... hypo 

That said still interested in your vac as a spare, have you got any decent pics showing how you protect sub pump ? if its used as a gutter vac has it got a debris basket ? or just a mesh  thks

[Kev Martin]

Kevin,
You had a similar post some time back ( 6 mths ?) in ref to cleaning block paving, several of us questioned the logic of using a rotary on block paving instead of pressure washing.
 I must say we have been cleaning drives for over 10 years I have never heard of anyone else cleaning a block paved drive using your method.
I can see your logic for 'paved' patios to a certain degreee but not for block paving. I did find it amusing on the other post - ' Brick cleaning'  the op would need to apply akaline + honing powder and still after that expense / x time they may have revert to         .... hypo 

That said still interested in your vac as a spare, have you got any decent pics showing how you protect sub pump ? if its used as a gutter vac has it got a debris basket ? or just a mesh  thks

I totally agree with you and the reply to the post.  I am not saying for one minute that you, Lee, Rob or Carl should all get rid of your pressure washers and use my method!  All I am saying is it works and even to the extent that we tried it on a Garage Forecourt and it was better but ultimately that is not what the garage forecourts wanted they just want them clean and free of fuel spillages, done as quickly as possible and for the best price. 

The OP on the brick cleaning actually said he had tried pressure washing on a previous job and WANTED a different method so I gave him one!  He probably didn't use an FSC either hence the mess but all I did was gave him an alternative that we know works.

Regarding the Wet Vacs, primarily they are all the same but with variations.

1.  Normal Triple Motor Vac 3300watts Link below price same but includes free delivery and has blue flat top now
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130517917245&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
2.  Same vac but used for Gutter Cleaning so this one has a 50mm inlet quite a few on the CIU have bought them so I hope they will give you some feedback(Good or Bad) around £40 more than the above and still only comes with the 38mm Tools
3.  Same as 1 above but with a pump out.  The pump is stainless steel with auto pump out that can be switched to manual. Link below ignore price it is £524 + VAT
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140538780973&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Carl BDCS has just asked me to get a price on a Pump out with a 50mm inlet which I am sorting and should have by Monday but guessing it will be around £569 + VAT.

All these vacs are made in China but CE Marked and assembled in Germany!  1000's of the pump outs have been sold to the German Fire Service

Any other Q's give me a call on Monday in the office on 0121 773 2450 or e mail me on tilinglogistics@hotmail.com

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[G O Cleaning]

Kevin,
You had a similar post some time back ( 6 mths ?) in ref to cleaning block paving, several of us questioned the logic of using a rotary on block paving instead of pressure washing.
 I must say we have been cleaning drives for over 10 years I have never heard of anyone else cleaning a block paved drive using your method.
I can see your logic for 'paved' patios to a certain degreee but not for block paving. I did find it amusing on the other post - ' Brick cleaning'  the op would need to apply akaline + honing powder and still after that expense / x time they may have revert to         .... hypo 

That said still interested in your vac as a spare, have you got any decent pics showing how you protect sub pump ? if its used as a gutter vac has it got a debris basket ? or just a mesh  thks

I totally agree with you and the reply to the post.  I am not saying for one minute that you, Lee, Rob or Carl should all get rid of your pressure washers and use my method!  All I am saying is it works and even to the extent that we tried it on a Garage Forecourt and it was better but ultimately that is not what the garage forecourts wanted they just want them clean and free of fuel spillages, done as quickly as possible and for the best price. 

The OP on the brick cleaning actually said he had tried pressure washing on a previous job and WANTED a different method so I gave him one!  He probably didn't use an FSC either hence the mess but all I did was gave him an alternative that we know works.

Regarding the Wet Vacs, primarily they are all the same but with variations.

1.  Normal Triple Motor Vac 3300watts Link below price same but includes free delivery and has blue flat top now
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130517917245&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT
2.  Same vac but used for Gutter Cleaning so this one has a 50mm inlet quite a few on the CIU have bought them so I hope they will give you some feedback(Good or Bad) around £40 more than the above and still only comes with the 38mm Tools
3.  Same as 1 above but with a pump out.  The pump is stainless steel with auto pump out that can be switched to manual. Link below ignore price it is £524 + VAT
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140538780973&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Carl BDCS has just asked me to get a price on a Pump out with a 50mm inlet which I am sorting and should have by Monday but guessing it will be around £569 + VAT.

All these vacs are made in China but CE Marked and assembled in Germany!  1000's of the pump outs have been sold to the German Fire Service

Any other Q's give me a call on Monday in the office on 0121 773 2450 or e mail me on tilinglogistics@hotmail.com

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

Fair play 

Had a quick look at ebay listings already, think its best to have a chat as still not sure how they collect debris after something similar to existing vac, which has a debris basket
to protect pump thks Mike

[Roland S]

Kevin Do those vac's have an IP rating? What do they weigh?

[chris scott]

Kevin Thanks for taking the time to answer . My business is just one man in an old transit van ,who was trained at Smartseal ....i have a lot to learn!

At the risk of being pedantic.... the OP asked   quote "is there a chemical that will kill the moss between the bricks and get the bricks looking good again without using a pressure washer. " I took it he was looking for a chemical solution...not mechanical. I thought the safest approach would be to direct him to the DIY market. Save damage to himself or substrate. Hence Algon.

I must of misinterpreted your reply to the Numatic vac ....to quote you  " They are only 2400watt arn't they? The other problem is the capacity is pathetic on them as well ".
I still don't know why i need a large capacity vac for gutter cleaning?

[Kev Martin]

Kevin Do those vac's have an IP rating? What do they weigh?

The vac weighs 25 KG with the triple motor head, the hose, two wands and wet pick up tool.  They are IP rated I believe I can check that for you tomorrow and let you know.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[Kev Martin]

Kevin Thanks for taking the time to answer . My business is just one man in an old transit van ,who was trained at Smartseal ....i have a lot to learn!

At the risk of being pedantic.... the OP asked   quote "is there a chemical that will kill the moss between the bricks and get the bricks looking good again without using a pressure washer. " I took it he was looking for a chemical solution...not mechanical. I thought the safest approach would be to direct him to the DIY market. Save damage to himself or substrate. Hence Algon.

I must of misinterpreted your reply to the Numatic vac ....to quote you  " They are only 2400watt arn't they? The other problem is the capacity is pathetic on them as well ".
I still don't know why i need a large capacity vac for gutter cleaning?

Chris

Alright I have said a 1000 times it is whatever works for you but it's not the capacity so much as the pure  vacuum (Sucking) power that's important?  But heyho Chris if you are happy then fine!  I try to make my posts informative!  I don't care who reads them, who takes notice of them or who uses the advice.  Just rest assured we only post about stuff we have experienced and what works for us.   I am not tryiing to force any one particular method,  make, model or product down anyone's throat I only post what we use and what works for us because whatever, Marblelife Ltd uses in restoration they need a continous supply so naturally it makes sense for Tiling Logistics Ltd to stock it.  That's the reason why Tiling Logistics stocks everything for floor and wall restoration from a £2 applicator pad up to a £45K grinding machine.

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

[Rob_Mac]

I appreciate your posts kevin.

They are slanted to specific products - which is fine! but they do give a great deal of very useful information to the forum and although I wouldn't use anything other than a pressure washer to clean a floor, on two occasions this year, to date and several previously I could have done with an alternative method, where overspray was a major issue and I needed a more encapsulating method.

One on a live hospital entrance & the second one on internal block paving @ a Sainsbury's

It has certainly given me food for thought and I appreciate the alternative view

I have had my eye on one of the auto dump-out vacuums for some time, now we are coming to the end of our year and because I have bought two large, specific pre filters from Dave Washbrook I can see an imminent purchase to complete a recycling set up.

Many thanks

Rob

[Kev Martin]

Rob

You are welcome anytime!

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

[BDCS]

Kevin, the issue here is you need to ignor the clocks when you know they are talking bullocks

[Rob_Mac]

 

[david washbrook]

Rob I have a 15" numatic rotary with drive board and a stiff nylon scrubbing brush head for sale if your interested! glad the filters suit your needs

[BDCS]

I recently had to remove some stid steer tyre marks from a retail park - I used my rotary but I never had any AM products or honing powder so on the same principle as advice offered here I used janitol rapide and kiln dried sand with a black pad (if I can call it that unless it upsets the fair trade supporters). 

[chris scott]

Kevin, the issue here is you need to ignor the clocks when you know they are talking bullocks

In english please?

[Kev Martin]

I recently had to remove some stid steer tyre marks from a retail park - I used my rotary but I never had any AM products or honing powder so on the same principle as advice offered here I used janitol rapide and kiln dried sand with a black pad (if I can call it that unless it upsets the fair trade supporters). 

Carl

Yep I can see that as the Janito Rapide is a High Alkaline Cleaner with a Degreasing Agent to break down the dirt in the rubber and the Kiln Dried Sand coupled with the black pad acted as your mechanical abrasive instead of the Honing Powder probably perfect results because no control was required of the amount of abrasivness (Grit) because it didn't matter on the surface you were using it on they just wanted or you just wanted rid of the tyre marks!  In an effort not to be pedantic my choice would have been a Soft to Medium brush because it MAY have been better depending on the texture of the surface as it would have gotten into the pits and fissures better but they probably weren't being that fussy anyway.  Great analagy actually and a great solution from someone who thought about the problem and solved it!


Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd

[G O Cleaning]

One on a live hospital entrance & the second one on internal block paving @ a Sainsbury's

It has certainly given me food for thought and I appreciate the alternative view

We recently cleaned local hospital entrance, general soiling on flags plus chewing gum, used mosmatic full recovery plus hot at times, hardly any spray no chemical required. At  times we were working within feet of gen public no problems. If we used our rotary plus poly brush there would of been more spray plus high alkaline chem 
If we used rotary chem would require dwell time so areas would have to be cordoned off using mosy litterally cleaned and moved on hence small working area.  Worked perfect.
 Using a rotary gives you another method but I find using recovery inc recycling solves more problems.... if that makes sense ?
Have you tried recovery yet ?

[BDCS]

Yes I've used the AA several times 

[chris scott]

Kevin
Do the sump pumps fitted to your vacs have any sort of filtration?

[Kev Martin]

Kevin
Do the sump pumps fitted to your vacs have any sort of filtration?

I assume you are talking only about the pump out Vac?  If so yes they do!  If you are interested in purchasing one I will e mail you the specification

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

[chris scott]

Kevin
Do the sump pumps fitted to your vacs have any sort of filtration?

I assume you are talking only about the pump out Vac?  If so yes they do!  If you are interested in purchasing one I will e mail you the specification

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

I like the idea  if you are dealing with large amounts of fluid but looking at the ebay pictures it would be no good for what i want it for...gutter cleaning. Thanks for the offer anyway.

[Kev Martin]

Kevin
Do the sump pumps fitted to your vacs have any sort of filtration?

I assume you are talking only about the pump out Vac?  If so yes they do!  If you are interested in purchasing one I will e mail you the specification

Kev Martin
Marblelife Ltd
Tiling Logistics Ltd

Chris

Does your current Numatic gutter vac have a pump out???

Kev Martin
Tiling Logistics Ltd
Marblelife Ltd
I like the idea  if you are dealing with large amounts of fluid but looking at the ebay pictures it would be no good for what i want it for...gutter cleaning. Thanks for the offer anyway.

[chris scott]

No... the numatic does not have the pump.