Morph

Hourly rate, light domestic?
« on: February 21, 2006, 09:37:17 pm »
Hope you don't mind me asking?

I'm a windowcleaner, one of my accounts has asked me if I'd like to do their cleaning.  Block for old folks.  Just vacuuming communal areas, dusting, polishing, cleaning toilets/bathrooms.
They've asked an hourly quote.  I don't mind taking it on, but I don't really know what to charge.
Anyone mind helping me with an average figure?
Thanks

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2006, 09:49:30 pm »
How often is the work to take place?

lynngc

  • Posts: 242
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2006, 12:44:36 am »
i would of priced an hourly rate of £15- £18.
is it a big place?
lots of carpets?


lynn
lynn @ gower cleaning services, swansea.

Tim Downer

  • Posts: 656
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2006, 07:03:13 am »
Thought i would show my face too.....seeing as some of you are   :-[  :-[  ;D

Tim
Tim Downer
Manager

"The difference between Ordinary and Extraordinary.....is that little Extra"

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2006, 08:09:48 am »
Thought i would show my face too.....seeing as some of you are   :-[  :-[  ;D

Tim

 :) My face can be seen here: www.cleaningforyou.co.uk  ;D

Tim Downer

  • Posts: 656
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2006, 08:17:54 am »
Yes, i remember looking at your site a month or so back when you asked for feedback on the site.

When you can see what someone looks like.....ie Karl and Lynn etc etc the postings do seem more personal..... :P

What i'm trying to say is that instead of writing comments to a Joe Bloggs....you are writing to a colleague.....a person...... :-[  :-\

I don't know what i am saying anymore.........it must be too much coffee!! On my 4th one and its only just past 8:00 in the morning.

Regards

Tim   :)  :D  ;D  ;D
Tim Downer
Manager

"The difference between Ordinary and Extraordinary.....is that little Extra"

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2006, 08:21:21 am »

lynngc

  • Posts: 242
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2006, 08:27:27 am »
thought i felt my ears burning. LOL
yes tim, it is much much nicer to see what the other person your are writing to looks like, i guess you can get a feel of their nature.

A&J, your web site, looks lovley, simple, and not jargon talk.   nice to see your faces.

come one you lot,  put some picture's, up.   
lets see how beautiful you really are. LOL ;D ;D ;D ;D

lynn ;D
lynn @ gower cleaning services, swansea.

clifford

  • Posts: 165
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2006, 09:09:06 am »
dont know if my pic will come up but here goes me and the wife on the best day of our lives

Morph

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2006, 09:27:06 am »
ahem...........

Thanks for your advice, it's not a big job, just a little add - on for me.

Err.....I'll show the client all your faces, I'm sure that will help :P

Tim Downer

  • Posts: 656
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2006, 09:40:47 am »
Sorry, my fault......made the posting digress a bit from its topic.

Regards

Tim
Tim Downer
Manager

"The difference between Ordinary and Extraordinary.....is that little Extra"

domestic bliss

  • Posts: 161
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2006, 06:28:53 pm »
Sorry but i won't be showing my face.  it's the wrong forum for a horror movie.  lol ;D :o

dustycorner

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2006, 06:37:06 pm »
I'm not showing my face either because while i was falling out of the ugly tree hitting every branch on the way, the bloody tree then keeled over upon aforementioned face lol.

I was once asked to go on a double date by quasimodo and 2 ladies
just to make quasi look good.

Cheers Mark.

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2006, 08:07:22 pm »
...A&J, your web site, looks lovley, simple, and not jargon talk...

Thank you, Lynn, for your nice comments, I have done this website myself with a help of Web Easy Pro 5.  I have found this software very easy to use… :)
Kind regards,
Arthur

Morph

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2006, 10:28:04 pm »
Thanks Gower Cleaning, for your help.

As for the rest of you....

I don't think I'll waste my time on here.  I got more sense asking next door's dog :(

lynngc

  • Posts: 242
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 10:36:24 pm »
PJ,
we do care about our scrubbers on here. LOL
just we get carried away sometimes,  please come back to the forum,  just ask us anything, we will try to answer your questions.

lynn ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
lynn @ gower cleaning services, swansea.

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 10:49:18 pm »
PJ,
Oops  :o missed your question:

...Just vacuuming communal areas, dusting, polishing, cleaning toilets/bathrooms.
They've asked an hourly quote.  I don't mind taking it on, but I don't really know what to charge...

My charge is currently £9 per hour, customer provide materials and equipment.

How much would you work for?  Is it £5 or £10 or £15 per hour, may be you would not think of doing it without getting £20 an hour?  Just say a number to be happy with, keep it simple.

Good luck,
Arthur

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2006, 07:33:04 am »
keep your wage bill to 57% of the charge. i.e. charge £10 per hour and pay £5.70 per hour.

That'll do it.

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2006, 07:48:10 am »
keep your wage bill to 57% of the charge. i.e. charge £10 per hour and pay £5.70 per hour.

That'll do it.

I think Pj is a self-employed person:

...I'm a windowcleaner, one of my accounts has asked me if I'd like to do their cleaning...

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2006, 08:29:42 am »
Self employed or not...............the pricing has to be the same. It just means that he will get the wage element as well as his profit if he cleans it himself.

The thing to remember is that he won't be able to clean EVERYTHING himself.

Every job MUST be costed as if someone else was going to clean it then when the point comes that you need additional staff all of the costings will be right.

What would happen if you underpriced something so that you could clean it yourself.........................then you picked up more and more like that...........sooner or later you would need some help to do them BUT there is not enough in the pot to pay someone else.

You have a big struggle on your hands or you have to start letting contracts go.

I've seen so many people make this mistake. ALWAYS cost a job as if you were going to staff it. NEVER 'buy' turnover by slashing your margins.

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2006, 08:46:19 am »
Self employed or not...............the pricing has to be the same…

... ALWAYS cost a job as if you were going to staff it. NEVER 'buy' turnover by slashing your margins.

Some time, I would say (from my own experience) most of the time, customer would not like to pay much money to “a one man band”.  Every body understands that big companies have big overheads and small firms can keep overheads down.

My point is that if you are a “one man band” you will be unlikely to get similar hourly rate as average cleaning companies.  I speak from my own experience.  We started our own business on our own and raised charges as soon as we took staff on.  Increase was approved by our customers without any problems, except couple of cases…

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2006, 10:33:27 am »
except couple of cases…


What happened to those jobs???

Each to their own I suppose Arthur..................

But I would like you to imagine this for a moment.............

If you were to cost them properly you would allow £5.70 per hour for wages. If you do them yourself you can cut your costs because you are a one man band. Am I right so far?

Are you really putting a value on your time as less than £5.70 per hour. Is that what you think you are worth?

I always properly cost in the cleaners wage because my time is much better spent out there selling and getting in new contracts. The more time you spend cleaning the less time you've got for selling and your selling time is worth far more than £5.70 per hour.

Although I've spent a lot of time cleaning in the early days I've always been a firm believer that if you have to spend all this time cleaning you can't possibly be managing and growing your business properly, can you?

Please explain this to me...............

Why do you clean yourself? Is it because you have to cost them too low to put a cleaner in?

Why do you have to cost them too low? Is it because the Client sees you cleaning yourself and expects a low charge?

It's a vicious circle that you have to break.

Do you want to grow a business or be a cleaner?  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

D woods

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2006, 11:41:59 am »
Hi CMS
You are 100% right (as usual ) . You should set up a cleaning consultancy
and charge for advice of this quality.

shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2006, 12:03:17 pm »
<RANT MODE ON>

 >:(

I have a problem with the assumption that everyone wants to grow their companies.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again now . .. I'm in this business as it allows me to manage my own time and to bring a bit more cash in for the luxuries in life.

I have no interest (at the moment) in expanding. I take on enough work to keep myself busy, but still allow time for a social and family life.

My current perspective is that taking on staff is more hassle than it's worth and I do not have the inclination, funds in the bank or know-how to do this, not to mention all the associated headaches that go with it - I can't afford holiday, sick, maternity pay, etc . .. 

Turn it around . . . What if I take someone on, increase the number of contracts I have and then my employee walks.  I'm left in exactly the position I wanted to avoid - ie. more work than I can handle by myself.

I can currently control what I do and when I do it.  One too many contracts/customers means I am not in control of that.

That's a vicious circle in itself.

I'm just getting increasingly frustrated by the assumption that everyone wants to expand and not be hands-on.  Personally, I'm not in that boat and don't expect to be told that I'm not ambitious enough.

<RANT MODE OFF>

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2006, 12:25:01 pm »
Hi there

Firstly, I can't remember saying to anyone that they are not ambitious enough. My actual words were "Each to their own, Arthur".

'A and J' was actually talking about being able to grow a business, indeed he has talked about it many times on many threads.

The fact that you don't and are happy to plod along is OK and yes, you have made this known before.

To try and keep this thread on topic...............

You say in your post that you don't have the funds, the inclination etc. to pay holiday pay etc.

Isn't that what this thread was about? Whether or not we should cost this in or devalue the contract to clean it ourselves?

As long as you are happy to clean contracts yourself without costing these things in, you will never have the funds or the inclination to do so.


shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2006, 01:38:04 pm »
Apologies, I hadn't actually realised I was addressing my post directly to you.  However, I am now directing this post at you, CMS.

I am unsure whether you just don't realise what you are doing or whether it's the 'coldness' of the forum format?

You say "As long as you are happy to clean contracts yourself without costing these things in, you will never have the funds or the inclination to <expand your company>."

How can I put this ....  I DON'T WANT TO.

Yet again there is the assumption.  I just want to charge my £15p/h, draw a salary, manage my own time and have a nice life.

You've already stated many times that you are not doing what you are doing to primarily draw a salary, but to build a business.  You cost with one aim, I cost with another.  I respect your approach, I just ask you to respect mine (and others) without belittling it.

You are always a great source of information and always available to help others, but please don't spoil that.

Getting the thread back on track for Pj (who has probably long gone) my only advice is to keep your quote in-line with your current window cleaning charges and ensure you (and only you) are happy with it.

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2006, 02:34:09 pm »
You cost with one aim, I cost with another.  I respect your approach, I just ask you to respect mine

I do respect your way of doing things. That's why I said, each to their own.

Personally, I couldn't give a t**s how you want to live your life or how you want to run your business. It is no concern of mine so please don't pretend that it should be..................

Remember......................we were asked the question "What should I charge?".

I gave an answer that the majority of people on here would agree with.

OK, you're the minority. You understand that. I understand that.

I think the guy wanted to know what was the norm, didn't he?

shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2006, 03:26:47 pm »
Whoa!  ...  easy tiger!

Touched a nerve there, obviously.

I reckon you should downsize to release some of that tension  ;D

And I'd say my size business was more the norm .. ..

 :-X

Morph

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2006, 04:37:49 pm »
Phew!

That's a bit more like it!  Amazing what a little "fuel to the flames" can produce.
Thanks guys and gals for your help, (currently more than I expected) I've got a good idea where to go with this job now.

I didn't want to create an argument over it.  All input is good, thanks once again.
Pj

By the way, can't really tell a lot about the real person behind our Avatars, but sometimes they influence the way posts are viewed:  You've been helpful CMS, it's none of my business, but, I kept thinking, any minute you're gonna say, "YOU'RE FIRED!"  (Alan Sugar?) ;D

Seriously, though, thanks for the advice. 

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2006, 04:41:42 pm »
If there is one thing that I do not have  it is tension...................so no you didn't touch a nerve at all, as much as you'd like to think you did.

I notice from your post count that you're not that much of a contributor to the forum and I'm wondering why that is. Is it because you don't really know which side of the fence to sit on?

I can't work out whether you are a 'cleaner' who would really love to be a cleaning contractor or a 'cleaning contractor' who wants to be a cleaner.

I'm baffled but won't dwell on it .............................


shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2006, 04:58:45 pm »
Judging someone by the number of their posts is folly and I'm surprised at you.  I usually have better things to do (although today is an exception).

If I have something to say, I'll say it.  The difference is that I choose what I say and don't feel the need to comment on EVERYTHING.  I don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I expect the same in return.

I think you are a friendly guy who is genuinely trying to help, but has developed a bit of an ego over the last couple of weeks - manners cost nothing.

I'm baffled but won't dwell on it .....................

And that will be my final post on this matter - I have no intention of being reeled in.  :-X

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2006, 05:10:09 pm »
Thank God for that.........some people!  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2006, 05:33:26 pm »
I have just come back home here is my long post:

except couple of cases…


What happened to those jobs???


Two customers refused to use our service anymore, one of them had already lady who was doing ironing with smaller hourly rate than ours at that time…

Please explain this to me...............

Why do you clean yourself? Is it because you have to cost them too low to put a cleaner in?...

You have to start business somehow.  Our business plan was start doing cleaning ourselves and then expand business employing people.  You have to have money to do it in a different way or have a different source of income.

Please explain this to me...............

Why do you have to cost them too low? Is it because the Client sees you cleaning yourself and expects a low charge?
 

A client would like to pay a fare charge, a one man band cannot justify his/her charges if they are equal to the cleaning companies.

It's a vicious circle that you have to break.

Do you want to grow a business or be a cleaner?  :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\


Now when I have got a stable sour of income I am able to grow the business, the circle has already been broken:
Quote from here
Harrogate, North Yorks, this is a rich area but what I have found is if you market your self as professional (expensive) company you will get the good jobs…
… £14.50 per hour is my labour rate but on some jobs it works out a lot more as much as £17 per hour…
… i did fill my book of work on lower priced jobs, once you have money coming in then try to get the worth while jobs. good luck Phil


--------------------------------------------------------


…My current perspective is that taking on staff is more hassle than it's worth and I do not have the inclination, funds in the bank or know-how to do this, not to mention all the associated headaches that go with it - I can't afford holiday, sick, maternity pay, etc . .. 

Turn it around . . . What if I take someone on, increase the number of contracts I have and then my employee walks.  I'm left in exactly the position I wanted to avoid - ie. more work than I can handle by myself…

From my own experience let me just say that managing business (whatever kind of business) is not easy.  If you managed to start a business (a one man band is also business) you can expand it.  It is a question of motivation: do you what more money or not?

As far as lack of finances is concerned let me suggest you to increase your charges, right a business plan and get a loan if you need it.  As I said it is a question of motivation…

And as I understand your answer is:

...  I just want to charge my £15p/h…

I am afraid, I have to say:  I do not believe that “one man band” can get paid so much for doing domestic cleaning…

Quote from here
Harrogate, North Yorks, this is a rich area but what I have found is if you market your self as professional (expensive) company you will get the good jobs...

...£14.50 per hour is my labour rate but on some jobs it works out a lot more as much as £17 per hour...

Kind regards,
Arthur
 :)

shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2006, 05:45:50 pm »
<< am afraid, I have to say:  I do not believe that “one man band” can get paid so much for doing domestic cleaning…>>

The £15p/h figure is the average across all my customers, so you a half right, I guess!

I have found that if you market and present yourself correcty and have a friendly and welcoming attitude, you can surprise yourself.

It's not that I'm not motivated (I could sit on my *rse all day and let hubby bring the money in) - it's just that at this stage, I have absolutely no need to grow.


Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2006, 06:10:19 pm »
...I have found that if you market and present yourself correcty and have a friendly and welcoming attitude, you can surprise yourself...

A friendly and welcoming attitude helps a LOT, but for me it is still hard to believe…  I may be wrong as you live on the south of the UK where cost of living is higher, so I would not argue about your charges...
Let me just say one more thing about expanding a business:
I cannot repeat exactly what I heard or red somewhere, but it was something like:
Quote
if your business is not growing it is declining
]

Wishing you all the best
 :)
Arthur

shelton

  • Posts: 175
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2006, 06:18:45 pm »
<<if your business is not growing it is declining>>

Hahha.

That sounds like the management claptrap I left behind 10 years ago!  Lives in the same category as;

onboarding
we'll take that offline
take it on board
what's your bandwidth?
low hanging fruit
cookie cutter

Oh, how I laughed.  ;D

Let's end the day on a positive . ... .   have a nice day!

 ;)

D woods

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2006, 06:53:41 pm »
Dont forget to think outside the box.And touch base.

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2006, 06:56:32 pm »
Only when it comes from 'left field'.............

Seriously though...........

Call it what you like but I happen to agree with Arthur.

If a business is not growing it's declining (compared to others around it who are moving forward).

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2006, 06:59:23 pm »
Did anyone used to play 'Bingo' in meetings...........we did.

We had a sheet of paper in a grid and in each square we had one of those 'sayings' that we've just mentioned.

Everyone had a sheet and when you heard the word/saying you marked it off.

The first one to fill the sheet won!


Morph

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2006, 08:54:35 pm »
YOU'RE FIRED!

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2006, 09:07:36 pm »
Yeah right!

lynngc

  • Posts: 242
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2006, 10:19:03 pm »
now now boys, no squabbling.

YOUR ALL FIRED PMSL

peace at last.

now i can get on with my scrubbing

lynn ;D
lynn @ gower cleaning services, swansea.

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2006, 11:00:12 pm »
Shall we drag Pj back to the window cleaning forum now? ;D

Or should he start some more threads like this one? ;)

If you fancy more tomfoolery get onto the chat section and listen to some of the drivel on there!

Cheers, Rog.

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2006, 11:06:00 pm »
Shall we drag Pj back to the window cleaning forum now? ;D...

 ;D Do not let him out  ;D

ross-kesava

  • Posts: 5
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2006, 11:29:13 pm »
Soory but to go back in time a bit - CMS posted something relating to 57% of the total cost and wage bill for staff.

I'm interested in why that figure. Why 57%?

I'm just curious that's all.

Sometimes odd comments like that hide something of value.

Cheers and thanks.

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2006, 08:02:42 am »
Hi Ross-kesava

57%.......................

Well, years ago (1981 to be precise) when I started to sell cleaning I was trained by two guys called Julian mcGregor and Derek Hopwood. They both went on to hold VERY senior positions in Rentokil before the merger with Initial.

They were brilliant salesmen and even better teachers. They taught me that to get the charge for a cleaning contract you just doubled the wage bill. That would mean that the wage 'content' was 50%. This worked for a few years but then it became more competitive and companies had to narrow their margins.

For about 10 years I shifted the wage bill to 55% of the charge which made me more competitive but less effective operationally.

If the wage bill becomes 60% of the charge you are struggling to operate properly AND make any money. At 50% you are not competitive so a happy medium needed to be found....................

..........................57%!

If companies keep reducing their prices the customer will come to accept that they can get a promise of a 'loaded' cleaning spec for little money. What will happen then is the customer will get a poor service and will look elsewhere (expecting to pay even less) and the cycle starts all over again.

We MUST collectively, as an industry, maintain these sensible margins. If we don't we will reduce them to the point where we are providing a crap service, changing Clients every five minutes and making no money.

Then, I feel, it will be all over and customers will drift back to employing their own cleaners for about the same cost!

Tim Downer

  • Posts: 656
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2006, 08:56:26 am »
Hi Karl

I agree with your thoughts there about educating the customers to the service levels they should be getting.....and to get it they need to pay for it.

I think that this would be a good subject to cover in one of your monthly journals that you mentioned in another post yesterday.

The more we professionals can educate the customer, the better all round for the professionals i say......

Kind Regards

Tim
Tim Downer
Manager

"The difference between Ordinary and Extraordinary.....is that little Extra"

rosskesava

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2006, 09:28:53 am »
Hi CMS again

Thanks for that.

I'm in the window cleaning business and we're at that point where either we stay as we are, as we cannot fit anymore work in, or we employ people. I guess the difference in trade doesn't really make that much difference in terms of operating profit.

I've been trying to work out for ages how to not only work out what to pay in wages, but what profit to make on the job.

Educate the customer? That is a problem in window cleaning as well. What I can never understand, and which helps no one in the long run, is the w/c who undercuts another w/c to get the work.

I think that has to be a problem in the entire cleaning industry as there are very few other trades/business's where you get the one man band sometimes working to earn a few bob extra right up to the large national companies.

Cheers


Ian Gourlay

  • Posts: 5748
Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2006, 08:03:21 am »
All very interesting.

Egos Yes I do wonder if we all develop Egos from being on Forums.

Being a bit of an Adict I often do searches on Forums and goback to the earlier days.

A lot of people fade away but those who stay it is interesting how they progress and their opinions change.



Shelton

Well done do you realise you actually charge more for cleaning than Karl (mr Sugar himself)

While on the subject of charging domestic.

Looked at a Franchise Yesterday where the customer only pays an hourl rate of £7.50 which includes the Franchise Management Fee.

Interesting they ask for the Management fee to be paid every quarter in advance, and then client pays cleaner.

Personally I cant see how you can Leaflet with full colour leaflets advertise and pay your monthly fee to the Franchisor on these margins.

But maybee you can as several had Management fee income over £100K

CMS

Re: Hourly rate, light domestic?
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2006, 10:59:42 am »
???????????????????