'buffer' tank

« **on:** March 06, 2013, 10:59:44 am »

Morning all,

Before I came on here I was always a hose to pressure washer guy. But after reading up on it decided to buy a wheelie bin and go down the suction hose to pressure washer road.

Used this method for the first time yesterday. My washers a 15lpm. I was too happy with the Suction really- . RFC wasn't spinning as fast as it should be and the flow rate was quite juddery, job ended up taking twice as long as it should have. The buffer tank (wheelie bin) over flowed at once and nearly did a second time, so there must have been a higher flow rate out the tap than there was the suction hose.

Ended up putting the hose straight into the washer.

What do you guys think, is it not worth a buffer tank for 15lpm or did this garden tap just have an exceptionally high flow rate.

« **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2013, 11:10:29 am »

Simple answer to overflowing add float to inlet on wheelie bin

what pump are u using on machine some models do not like sucking require larger head of water, check inline filters if you haven't already. Worth having tank as some properties will not have enough water flow to supply washer.

« **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2013, 12:24:07 pm »

You've probably knackered your valves in the pump from the direct feed and now it won't suck properly.

« **Reply #3 on:** March 06, 2013, 03:05:40 pm »

great outdoors, on your buffer tank do you just throw the water hose in from customers tap, or have you a fixed connection fitted so you can push fit the hose onto buffer, have you any pics showing how to fit float onto buffer tank, ill be using a wheely bin to get going id like to get this fixed first, buffer tank set up. i usually need to see something to get an idea how to fix on fittings etc.
if you have time and cant post pics on here like me , send some to ts1cleaning@gmail.com
or if anyone can help out with pics would be great.
i got some sent via phone but had to log into virginmedia too much hassle , couldnt get them via phone. best and easier attaching in email. big thanks.

« **Reply #4 on:** March 06, 2013, 03:36:54 pm »

Some customers have those out side taps that are piggybacked to a pipe, they pierce a small hole in the pipe, OK for filling a watering can but lack enough volume of water to keep up with a comercial pressure washer. Hence the need for a buffer tank.
Can you fit a conector to the bottom of the 'tank' so that you have some pressure to the pump?
If you had more than enough water that the bin was overflowing I suspect the pump has an issue it might be something as silly as not being able to suck, not all do.
Check with the makers of the pump.

« **Reply #5 on:** March 06, 2013, 05:34:24 pm »

Quote from: johnny bravo on March 06, 2013, 03:05:40 pm

great outdoors, on your buffer tank do you just throw the water hose in from customers tap, or have you a fixed connection fitted so you can push fit the hose onto buffer, have you any pics showing how to fit float onto buffer tank, ill be using a wheely bin to get going id like to get this fixed first, buffer tank set up. i usually need to see something to get an idea how to fix on fittings etc.
if you have time and cant post pics on here like me , send some to ts1cleaning@gmail.com
or if anyone can help out with pics would be great.
i got some sent via phone but had to log into virginmedia too much hassle , couldnt get them via phone. best and easier attaching in email. big thanks.

In general we used van based Ibc's, these have floats so what ever the supply is simply attach to float, to stop tanks overflowing. Dont really know what else you want me to say havent got a pic its a simple float valve, have a look at exchange engineering they stock them

« **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2013, 05:47:23 pm »

If it all works perfect when you connect the hose to it....sounds like you where drawing air somewhere. Drop the return into a bucket full of water is it "blowing bubbles" ?

« **Reply #7 on:** March 08, 2013, 09:56:20 am »

Thanks for the replies.

I haven't checked pump or valves yet, its my job for the weekend.

Pump is a 'triplex 1508a'

I did a couple of flow rate tests the other night,
My garden tap is about 13lpm
Suction hose (natural syphon) about 7lpm
Suction hose through pressure washer 5lpm

Surprised me the flow rate was lower when connected to pressure washer.

Sounds like either pump doesn't suck, but I'm hoping its just a problem with pump

« **Reply #8 on:** March 08, 2013, 04:42:23 pm »

Hi Chris
I bet you are using 1/2 hose pipe first of all down to your local plumbing shop and get a 3/4 tank connector
Solvent weld type a gas shut off vale tell them what you want to do and I'm sure they will supply the bits

Do not buy this at a plumbers shop a flow rate will be to low Plastic float valve for inlet on wheelie bin

From a pressure washing supplier
<http://www.landypressurewashers.com/Landy_QuickCouplingsValvesAndFilters.html>

Most part is on the link above
Plastic float valve to inlet on wheelie bin 20 litres per minute+
Claw type hose barb quick connectors
Use a minimum 3/4 hose pipe preferably 1"" no more than 3 m in length
Like in the picture, when you open the valve you will get 15 litres in seconds
If it cant quite understand e-mail me and I'll e-mail you my number

[/img]

Can't upload pictures for some reason I have e-mailed them to you instead your website e-mail[/u]
mark@grimeforce.co.uk

I have Upload a pictures here
http://s1296.beta.photobucket.com/user/markbow2/media/IMG_28012_zpsd4e97ab3.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

« **Reply #9 on:** March 08, 2013, 06:20:29 pm »

Before taking your pump apart, connect your washer to a tap and turn the tap on with the gun closed, if it loeaks anywhere then you are sucking in air, sort that out first, if its still isnt right then look at valves etc as you would have probably been using it on less than 15 lpm from a tap so would have caused unnessasary wear on your pump

« **Reply #10 on:** March 08, 2013, 06:38:04 pm »

Good shout mark. Chris how big is your suction hose? I've known a lad to try sucking with a garden hose.

« **Reply #11 on:** March 08, 2013, 06:54:07 pm »

Quote from: chris scott on March 06, 2013, 05:47:23 pm

If it all works perfect when you connect the hose to it....sounds like you where drawing air somewhere. Drop the return into a bucket full of water is it "blowing bubbles" ?

Check above. At a guess your pump is Chinese.... if it is don't spend money repairing it.

« **Reply #12 on:** March 08, 2013, 07:03:31 pm »

The bore of the hose doesnt matter as long as its reinforced and not garden hose and at least 1/2 inch, if you take the hose tail of the pump and look at the inlet the inlet is only half inch anyway, hence the reason 21 litre machines have 2 suction pipes on them now... even though the hose is 3/4 it will still only narrow to the half inch on the pump
And a quick fix untill you get your float valve fitted is to drill a hole near the top where your float valve will be going and temporarilly insert a piece of hose pipe tha runs out of your van, this will act as an overflow to get you by untill you fit a stop cock float

« **Reply #13 on:** March 08, 2013, 07:15:19 pm »

Just googled the pump, yes its chinese.... time to upgrade...

« **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2013, 07:16:31 pm »

Hi Kenny83
if you are using gravity fed form a wheelie bin the bore size does matter in my opinion but not going to argue the point
on my machine has a 3/4 inlet hole
Mark

« **Reply #15 on:** March 08, 2013, 08:28:03 pm »

Hi Mark, I know what you mean mate, lets not fall out lol. In my experience I have used 1/2 inch hose and worked fine, aslong as its not cheap garden hose that sucks in, reinforced works fine for 15 lpm. The inlets are only half inch on the pump so it has to go through there anyway. i was just sharing my experience

« **Reply #16 on:** March 08, 2013, 09:06:45 pm »

Hi Kenny83

No problem mate just trying to explain to Chris as shown in the picture link that the machine does not have to suck if it is gravity fed
I always found 1"worked perfectly and machine can then take what it needs
Agree with you 100% about reinforced pipe

All the best mark

« **Reply #17 on:** March 08, 2013, 09:51:45 pm »

sorry, i didnt even know there was a pic Mark.

« **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2013, 10:26:39 pm »

I could not upload a picture never had a problem before tried three times and they were small files

personally I think LEE AT Blast Away has used all the space up

mark

« **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2013, 10:59:21 am »

Thank your for all the replies guys.

Suction hose is 3/4. My washers a Kiam.. Massive waste of money. Im going to have a look at the pump later on this afternoon, so will keep you all informed.

« **Reply #20 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:03:24 pm »

Mark your info has helped me massivly. Am I right in saying that the claw valves you mention will grip straight onto the shut off valve? I'm in the same situation as the OP.

Thanks

« **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2013, 01:48:08 pm »

Just to update, I built the shut off valve that Mark suggested. Will post a pic shortly.

It has increased the natural syphon to about 10 LPM. But when the pressure washer was turned on and running it went back down to around 7-8lpm.

What do you think is the reason. Is the pump f*cked or is it the valves?

« **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2013, 06:49:04 pm »

Something else I have noticed.

When using a hose feed, I can release the trigger and the pressure washer is happy, when on a tank if I release the trigger the engine makes a racket as there is no water running round the pump, is that normal?

« **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:10:25 pm »

Sounds like your pump cant suck from a tank.

« **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:13:14 pm »

If its coming from the bottom of the tank then its not sucking it should have a positive feed

« **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:53:18 pm »

Its sounding like it doesn't suck,even though the manufacturers are telling me it does

« **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2013, 11:38:06 pm »

I'm weighing up my options now.
If the natural flow of the tank is 10lpm, is reasonable to expect a pump to suck an extra 5lpm?

Also are all pumps built the same, Im looking at ws202 pump from malcleanse.would that fit onto my engine?

« **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2013, 11:50:01 pm »

You are looking for your engine shaft to be 1" parallel

« **Reply #28 on:** March 26, 2013, 07:34:10 pm »

Sorry have not been about for a few days
Hi Neil
Should do if you get the right one
click on couplings & connectors http://dualpumps.co.uk/Products.html#prod5
click on couplings & connectors

Hi Chris
are you sure your not sucking air some where is their a nut on the pump were you can bleed air out before starting up
Mark

« **Reply #29 on:** March 26, 2013, 08:05:19 pm »

Quote from: Chris Foxcroft on March 25, 2013, 08:53:18 pm

Its sounding like it doesn't suck,even though the manufacturers are telling me it does

Kiam?

« **Reply #30 on:** March 26, 2013, 11:32:40 pm »

Is a Kiam.. Wish I was on this site before I bought it.

Theres no air leaks, I've checked and there isnt a bleed valve either.

« **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2013, 11:24:57 am »

When your machine is connected to your tank, does it actually work? I mean does it actually spray water like normal?

If not, i had this same problem when i was helping set up a mates washer. hooked everything up, started it, pulled the trigger and no water came out. turned everything off, and undid one of the big nuts on the pump head that cover the valves, bit of air came out, tightened it all back up, started it again and it all worked.

As someone said, air lock. If your pump head doesnt have a bleed valve, ive found this is the best way to get rid of the air.

Worth a shot. But this wont work if the machine is spraying like normal when connected to the tank.

« **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2013, 11:36:53 am »

Hi Matt, thanks for that.

When connected to the tank the water does flow through... Just at a much slower rate

« **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2013, 12:44:55 pm »

Have you checked the valves in the pump? Just sounds odd that it works fine when its fed direct from a hose. maybe change to a different pump if you do t want to get a new machine. or sell it and replace with a different one.

« **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2013, 03:34:29 pm »

Is a strange one, I agree. Yeah, have checked the valves in the pump, there in good working order. I think the pumps a dud.

« **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2013, 05:15:24 pm »

Kiams are like disposable lighters - should be thrown away when they run out of petrol

« **Reply #36 on:** March 28, 2013, 09:07:18 am »

Your not wrong there. Wish i knew before I bought it

They aren't responding to my emails. Might be time to speak to trading standards about them again.

« **Reply #37 on:** March 28, 2013, 09:15:52 am »

Have you left this machine through the winter, in any place that the cold could have got to sitting water in the pump. Even in the back of the van it will get cold enough to freeze.

The machine probably did draw it's own water but through an unknown reason it no longer does. Very difficult to diagnose problems without seeing the machine and what it is doing.

Get it to a service guy and let them tell you whether the pump is knackered or something is sticking or another problem. You have indeed bought a not very good machine.

I know about pressure washers, been around them for a long time but we couldn't find a fault with the Thor, similar to yours.

Long story short a very slight cut in the supply hose (couldn't see it!!!) allowed air to be drawn in and three days of being annoyed!!!. If you aren't mechanically minded get good support!!!

Rob

« **Reply #38 on:** March 28, 2013, 10:17:58 am »

Same thing can happen if one of the pistons are cracked, sucking in air, hence the reason to pressure feed the pump with the gun closed to test it, will reveal any leaks

« **Reply #39 on:** March 28, 2013, 11:15:16 am »

I have pressured tested the pump with a closed trigger.

I think tomorrow or saturday were gonna have the pump in bits to have a look and then rebuild it. I have had my supply hose fully submerged in water to look for air bubbles and fortunately none were coming out of it.

My dads an ex mechanic and he thinks the only thing it could possibly be is the valves, as we have checked everything else we can possibly think of. If its not that Im stuck. Lol.

Its frustrating tho because ive got work to be getting on with and yet can't because I need it to draw from a tank

« **Reply #40 on:** March 28, 2013, 04:19:58 pm »

I was at " Kiam house" yesterday. Interesting set up.They just import loads of chinese crap and fire it out the door. Judging by the pile of returns it's all about averages. They sell 100 and get 30 back they are probably making money.
Did you buy it new? How old is it? Is it fit for purpose? (they portray them as industrial designed to run all day long)
They will have a return to base warrenty on them ..which means it will cost you £50 for them to have a look at it.
I would try and make them take it back..don't take it apart it will invalidate the warranty.
Sorry i can't be of more help.
I would try trading standards..these are far from industrial machines.

« **Reply #41 on:** March 28, 2013, 05:40:25 pm »

"not fit for purpose"

« **Reply #42 on:** March 29, 2013, 01:58:24 pm »

Thanks for that Chris, it gives me a start.

I bought it from new about 9 months ago. No it is not fit for purpose, it doesn't suck out of a tank. Think it will be trading standards job.

Just frustrated that I can't work with it at the most and I'm gonna have to shell out for a new machine.

« **Reply #43 on:** March 29, 2013, 02:45:16 pm »

Buy nice or buy twice

« **Reply #44 on:** March 29, 2013, 04:15:04 pm »

Dead right BDCS.

Wish i knew it was tat before hand.

« **Reply #45 on:** May 24, 2013, 06:35:10 pm »

I've been meaning to upload this for a while. This is my version of the tank.
Big thanks to Mark @ Grimforce for his help.