[JJdomestics]

Hi all,

I'm really not having a good week. One of our members of staff is being very horrible. her attitude is really bad and every comment I make I get the reply "whateva". She is making our working life miserable and there is nothing I can do about it. My business partner has now been put off employing new staff due to the rough time we are having with our other lady. Jobs are coming every day and I'm having to turn them away! Any advice on how to resolve this situation would be great.

Thanks

[Simon H]

Hi

How long has this member of staff worked for you and is this a change in her attitude or has she always been like this

Sy

[allergease]

This is your business and you need to react pretty quick to nip this in the bud. This ladys attitude is unacceptable and merits disciplinary action. I believe that you need to speak to her, in private away from other staff members, informing her that you have noticed a change in her attitude, is there anything that is troubling her ? is there anything that you can do to help her ? Explain that you do not wish to lose her as an employee however you need to see an immediate change in her behaviour. Tell her that although the conversation is verbal you will record the date, time and content of the conversation and keep a copy of it in her employee records. Obviously if things do not improve then a written warning would very soon follow, then dismissal.
Best of luck,
Conrad

[lynngc]

i can only back up what conrad has suggested.

it's your business, don't turn work away.

who's running the company?

you or her?

chin up

lynn

[Art]

Why don't you just sack her?

[AJCleaningServices]

Why don't you just sack her?

You can suck person for gross misconduct, but according to JJdomestics explanation, the issue is misconduct.

Hi

How long has this member of staff worked for you and is this a change in her attitude or has she always been like this

Sy

In addition to Simon H question, I would like to ask whether the employee has got a contract or a Statement of terms and conditions of employement together with Grievance and Dismissal and Disciplinary Procedure.  This is very important, because during first two months of employement (not later) an employer must provide an employee with terms and conditions of employement.

JJdomestics, I would suggest you to follow the procedure explained by Conrad:

This is your business and you need to react pretty quick to nip this in the bud. This ladys attitude is unacceptable and merits disciplinary action. I believe that you need to speak to her, in private away from other staff members, informing her that you have noticed a change in her attitude, is there anything that is troubling her ? is there anything that you can do to help her ? Explain that you do not wish to lose her as an employee however you need to see an immediate change in her behaviour. Tell her that although the conversation is verbal you will record the date, time and content of the conversation and keep a copy of it in her employee records. Obviously if things do not improve then a written warning would very soon follow, then dismissal.
Best of luck,
Conrad

however, I would strongly advice you to seek a legal advice to make sure that you run things in a correct way.

Good luck,

Arthur

[Phoenix]

First things first:

Do you have a Company Diciplinary Procedure?

Has the employee signed a contract or Terms and Conditions of Employment?

Has she worked for you for more than 12 months?

Always, Always Seek advice from ACAS.

I've had a couple of these instances in the last two years, there are ways and means to sack employees lawfully

Good Luck

[*Chris Browne]

quick phone call to acas, they are pretty helpfull and will advise you on what you can and what you cant do .

chris

www.scsf.co.uk

[AJCleaningServices]

Why don't you just sack her?

You can suck person for gross misconduct, but according to JJdomestics explanation, the issue is misconduct.

Just would like to make myself clear:  
You can suck an employee with an immediate effect in case of gross misconduct, otherwise there is a procedure to follow (similar to that which has been given by Conrad), to avoid any legal challenges from the employee side.

However, I would again strongly advice you to seek a legal advice to make sure that you run things in a correct way.

Good luck,

Arthur

[AJCleaningServices]

ACAS is an organisation devoted to preventing and resolving employment disputes, here is the link: http://www.acas.org.uk/

[Art]

Just to clarify my earlier post i was looking for jj to come back with more facts, as her origional post didn't really state the ins and outs of  employment, action taken so far etc..., so therefore hard to give advice   

[clifford]

i find that it is hard to find good cleaning staff these days!so if this lady is a good cleaner try and discuss things  with her sometimes this is all it takes she must have a reason why she has changed


cliff

[gaza]

THE NEXT TIME SHE SAYS WHAT EVER JUST REPLY WHATEVER WAT.
I WOULD TELL SOME FRIENDS TO BOOK A CLEAN,SEND HER TO THEM,
GET THEM TO COMPLAIN IN WRITING,GIVE HER A WARNING ETC FOUR WARNINGS AND SHES OUT OF YOUR LIFE WHATEVER
    WHAT EVER

 GAZA

[JJdomestics]

Hi

I'm sorry I haven't been on for a few days. She has signed a written statement of employment. She has worked for us since september and her attitude has changed since she has started or perhaps this is her real p[ersonality showing through. I have had a word and asked if there is anything troubling her as I have noticed a change in attitude towards me. I also said that if there is something wrong then to come to me or my business partner and we will do our best to help. She said that nothing was wrong and she is perfectly happy. She is showing herself to be a very devious person who enjoys making a problem for me. I have phoned acas and they have said that I can't sack her yet and to folow the warning route. Another option I was think of was redundancy. If she looses another client for us, which given  time she will, then we can  not offer her 16 hrs she needs for tax credit. I know  I am coming across as horrible but believe me thie is one nasty piece of work.I know I would have to give her 1 weeks notice but can she still clain redundancy money from us?

[Paul Coleman]

Hi

I'm sorry I haven't been on for a few days. She has signed a written statement of employment. She has worked for us since september and her attitude has changed since she has started or perhaps this is her real p[ersonality showing through. I have had a word and asked if there is anything troubling her as I have noticed a change in attitude towards me. I also said that if there is something wrong then to come to me or my business partner and we will do our best to help. She said that nothing was wrong and she is perfectly happy. She is showing herself to be a very devious person who enjoys making a problem for me. I have phoned acas and they have said that I can't sack her yet and to folow the warning route. Another option I was think of was redundancy. If she looses another client for us, which given  time she will, then we can  not offer her 16 hrs she needs for tax credit. I know  I am coming across as horrible but believe me thie is one nasty piece of work.I know I would have to give her 1 weeks notice but can she still clain redundancy money from us?

I don't know about the rest of it but an employee has to be employed by a company for two years or more to qualify for redundancy pay. However, another issue could be if she claims unfair selection for redundancy (this is usually the equivalent of unfair dismissal.).  In view of the short length of time she has worked for you, would I be correct in believing that she is the shortest serving employee (from your original post, it looked like she may be your only employee which could simplify things)? Also, if you are worried about her messing the job about while on notice, it may be better to swallow and pay her the appropriate money in lieu of notice and let her go straight away.  People can do a lot of damage while working their notice period.

[Fox]

You can actually dismiss this employee without any specific explaination to her.  You need to write to her inviting her to a dismissal meeting, tell her in the letter that you believe her working practices leave your company with no other option but to consider dismissal and she can bring a representative along with her to the meeting.

At the meeting tell her that you are not happy with her general conduct (you don't need to elaborate) and therefore are considering dismissal.  Let her have her say about her behaviour,break off, call her back for your decision - dismissal.

The only things to watch for are:

Is she currently using the  grievience procedure
Can she claim discrimination
Is she about to or in the near future going to take maternity leave or parental leave
Is she approaching her 12month employment period (which you have said she isn't)

Because she has not worked for you for more than a year you can dismiss this employee with relative ease as she is causing you problems and may/has lost you clients.  She can not claim unfair dismissal unless it falls within one of the above catagories.

The only thing to get past now is whether you can do it or not, close your eyes and imagine how bad things are, can it stay like that?  Now think about the hours stress at a meeting to get rid of this long term problem and the feeling after when you don't have to face each day wondering what mood she is in.  Which is it to be?  Be strong if she is holding you back get rid, don't think about feelings just do it.

[Fox]

Nearly forgot - you must give the amount of notice to her that is in her contract, if you don't want her to stay then you must pay her this amount.

[CMS]

Hi

I'm sorry I haven't been on for a few days. She has signed a written statement of employment. She has worked for us since september and her attitude has changed since she has started or perhaps this is her real p[ersonality showing through. I have had a word and asked if there is anything troubling her as I have noticed a change in attitude towards me. I also said that if there is something wrong then to come to me or my business partner and we will do our best to help. She said that nothing was wrong and she is perfectly happy. She is showing herself to be a very devious person who enjoys making a problem for me. I have phoned acas and they have said that I can't sack her yet and to folow the warning route. Another option I was think of was redundancy. If she looses another client for us, which given  time she will, then we can  not offer her 16 hrs she needs for tax credit. I know  I am coming across as horrible but believe me thie is one nasty piece of work.I know I would have to give her 1 weeks notice but can she still clain redundancy money from us?

If she's only been with you for six months she has no facility to go to a tribunal (apart from one or two exceptions which don't count here).

I would give her a weeks notice and get rid!

[blacksheep]

hi, i got to say KEEP HER AWAY from other staff, i have had staff like this and their like cancer that goes through the whole team, the keep picking and bitching and its like a diomino effect and if you let her take control you will wish you did not worrie about her feelings get rid, why do they moan if their not happy. just leave!

[busydaffodil]

I know that you can terminate employment without reason for an employee employed for less than 2 years.   Be careful though, you cannot employ someone else to fill that position for some time (think it is 6 months)

You say she lost you a customer.   Verbal warning No 1

Bad attitude   Written Warning No 2

Bad attitude   Written warning no 3 and dismissal

Again, acas know it all.

[dustycorner]

Hi ,

Phone no for Acas is 08457 474747, also email if you want a copy of a letter i sometimes use titled Notice of unsatisfactory performance. It allows you to sit down with employee prior to going as far as disciplinary action, state your concerns and the action needed by the employee to bring their work upto the required standard.

Cheers Mark.

[CMS]

I know that you can terminate employment without reason for an employee employed for less than 2 years.   Be careful though, you cannot employ someone else to fill that position for some time (think it is 6 months)

I'm sorry but that is wrong. You CAN fill the position.

You can get rid of someone without any reason during the first 12 months (it used to be 2 years but now its 12 months). They CAN NOT go to an Employment Tribunal unless they suspect that there is either Sexual Discrimination or Racial Discrimination involved.

Those two are the only exceptions.

Trust me - I'm so sure that if it costs you money I'll pay! ...

[JJdomestics]

Hi

Thaks to you all for your really good advice. She has phoed in sick today so we shall see what happens in the next few days. I have to cover a house in the morning which she should have done today. This client used to be very friendly towards me as we have never let her down even when we were stuggling for staff and we have always catered for her needs, since our cleaner has been going they have stopped talking to me and it is very awkward when I am in the house. Our cleaner has said that hey have been talking about me and saying that they no longer like for some reason which she wouldn't say. My attitude back was, I wasn't put on this earth to be liked by everyone, so I don;t hink that was the reaction she was looking for.

As for keeping her away from other staff, we do. We did introduce her to another girl who is a casual cleaner for us but she was very rude and just walked away.

When we do eventually get rid of her, I know she will try to clain on our insurance for a a fall she apparently had at a clients house. Our health and saftey was all up to date and from what I can make out she was carrying too much down the stairss and fell down the last two steps and twisted her ankle. She did not loose any money as she was able to continue working but I know she will try to clain. I feel like she has us over a barrell.

[busydaffodil]

Then as CMS Above says, You can get rid of someone without any reason during the first 12 months. They CAN NOT go to an Employment Tribunal unless they suspect that there is either Sexual Discrimination or Racial Discrimination involved.
get rid.   
If you know shes going to claim, then whats the point of risking more lost customers, risking customers believing her lies as she is obviously talking negatively about you to them, and risking her obtaining all your customers details & planning to set up alone.

[Phoenix]

Did she fill out an accident report?

Were there any witnesses?

Did she see a doctor?

Did She have any time off work?

In my opinion as she has'nt been with you for 12 months, it is quite simple to get rid of her, use the excuse that you have lost clients and that you haven't got enough work for her.  Get her out of your life.  What does her contract say, have you gaurenteed hours for her?  If your H&S was up to date and she had read your risk assessements then you won't have anything to worry about.

Good Luck

[Paul Coleman]

I know that you can terminate employment without reason for an employee employed for less than 2 years.   Be careful though, you cannot employ someone else to fill that position for some time (think it is 6 months)

I'm sorry but that is wrong. You CAN fill the position.

You can get rid of someone without any reason during the first 12 months (it used to be 2 years but now its 12 months). They CAN NOT go to an Employment Tribunal unless they suspect that there is either Sexual Discrimination or Racial Discrimination involved.

Those two are the only exceptions.

Trust me - I'm so sure that if it costs you money I'll pay! ...

Quite right about filling the vacancy.  I think the 6 month rule referred to was in the case of redundancy rather than a sacking.  Even then, there are exceptions I believe.  N.B.  The rules I refer to were old ones and may have changed.  The 6 month rule re redundancy was toprevent an employer using bogus redundancy as a way of effectively sacking someone without good cause.  I can understand that too as some employers would abuse it.

[JJdomestics]

Thank you so much for all your help. I think we are going to loose her hours so we can't offer anymore and off she goes onto the next silly employer. If she clains then she claims!! I've gone past caring, infact I would rather take the risk of her sueing us for every penny than work with her for another week.

Thanks again

[dustycorner]

Hi JJ ,

there is some very good advice being offered, but seeing our employment law is stacked in the employees favour i would suggest you do everything by the book including following your disciplinary procedure .

I'm speaking ffrom personal experience. several years ago i sacked a man on the spot after he admitted to sexual harassment.

He subsequently got citizen advice bureau involved and took me to tribunal for unfair dismissal ( because i never gave him a disciplinary meeting ) we eventually settled out of court the dirty numpty got £1800 of my hard earned money . that was the best financialoption for my business.

My solicitors told me although i dismissed him for good reasons, i didn't take him through the disciplinary procedure , an exprnsive but a valuable lesson learned.

Cheers Mark.

[DP]

Dusty
Well your surprised me with that one. I would have thought sexual harassment would have easily qualified as cause for instant dismissal (unless it was verbal rather then physical).

[dish]

I'd just back up everything said about going by the book.  Even employees in their trial or probationary period have peculiar employment rights.

Seek advice from someone who knows about employment law.
 
Even going through the 1st, 2nd, third warning system etc. you could still end up getting 'done' and finding yourself having to pay out a substantial amount - even though its the employee creating the problem.

Don't go for the redundancy option either without advice - it is guaranteed to cost you and you could find that when you do recruit someone else, she can come back at you and get even more.

I would recommend a system of regular reviews and appraisals for all staff - that way you can show that you are monitoring her work and supporting her, giving her constant opportunity to 'be good' and avoid disciplinary procedures.

[dustycorner]

Hi DP .

In all i had five or six differents statements about this including one lady who stated  he  followed her into my stockroom and touched her breast, makes my blood boil just to think about the slimy toad.

Cheers Mark.

[House Buddies]

Hi

I have had a similar situation happen to me, I employed 32 ladies once doing private domestic work, I gave one of them a role as supervisor after 2 years service - what a nightmare, I dont think she did a days work after that and she lost me 12 clients along with another lady. I made them redundat after consulting a solicitor ended up going to tribunal and cost me £6000 not forgetting my time.

I would go to acas and follow discipline procedures to the letter, TRY TO AVOID SOLICITORS IF YOU CAN, it will cost you £1500 straight away.

I also had a 3rd incedent when a trusted employee who was a great cleaner telephoned me to say she was going self employed and was taking all the clients she cleaned for with her, even though there are clauses in her contract and client contracts to prevent this, I immediatley telephoned my solicitors ( A different solicitor than the first) who advised me to sack immiediatley for gross misconduct! ended up costing me £4000 even though I followed the letter of the law and even offered her the right to appeal with a meeting. She got free solicitors (the same as the last two cleaners used-funny coincidence)

So that is £10k through no fault of my own, lets just say I was p****d off.
I have since franchised the business out and use owner operators, the biggest employs 5 people.

I now employ 1 lady It has taught me to nip a situation in the bud straight away, never trust anyone! and I will never give a cleaner a free reign with clients keep changing them around and keep an eye on them, the clients are just as bad.

I have also set up a direct maid program where I have 2 self employed cleaners and they virtually get there own business in a postcode area and I get them clients and they give me a share of profits, at least they take ownership of the business and do a better job.

If you need any advice from someone who has been bitten then pleae email me1