woodman

  • Posts: 1069
A word of Warning (Update)
« on: November 16, 2004, 09:43:38 am »
A much respected poster has been caught out by a 'fellow' poster when he was asked for help and responded by sending one of his cleaning machines to the guy with the intention of him using it and trying it out, he then had the option of either buying it or sending it back.

Unfortunately the guy has done neither and will not return any calls or requests to explain his behaviour to the chap concerned.

We know he is still trading and his office does assure him that they are passing the messages on, so why he is doing this to a fellow cleaner is a mystery and certainly not what we have come to expect from the guys and girls on here who have helped out on countless occassions, other cleaners who were in need of help.

What we have now is a cleaner who is minus one machine,out of pocket as he sent it at his own expence, and I should imagine, not about to make the same mistake twice so others on here will suffer as a consequence.

I hope the person concerned reads this and responds as we would all hope, and explains that it is a genuine oversight on his part and makes good his end of the deal,with a little compensation thrown in for good measure.

I know this is a one off but to others I would just warn that maybe if you don't know who you are dealing with it might be a good idea to get a deposit from the firm/guy concerned before you send any machinery off,covering the full replacement value should anything occur.

Lets hope this situation resolves it's self in favour of the person concerned in the not to distant future .


garyj

Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 10:57:23 am »
If the person doesn't respond in the next few days, do we get to find out who it is??

replacement

Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 03:17:08 pm »
Name and Shame. That way no one else will full in the same trap.


woodman

  • Posts: 1069
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 06:52:07 pm »


I know what your saying but lets see how things pan out.

Besides if you follow some simple rules such as getting a deposit of some sort you should be ok. ;)


Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 08:48:29 pm »
Woodman

A very sad state of affairs, I’m with Justin on this but there has to be a time limit on holding back.

By the way hard reading blue on blue.

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

adl

Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2004, 08:55:53 pm »
I agree that we should all  be warned about this however the person involved must have the opportunity to rectify the problem before his name is published, after all there could be a simple explanation as to why.

So LEN if you could return my mechanical rubber doll i wont say any more about it ;D ;D ;D

regards Dave ADL

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 09:08:40 pm »
Dave

No chance mothering law like it so much, she keeps it lock away. Wife is totally bemused by it. ;D

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

seanc

  • Posts: 148
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2004, 06:19:06 pm »
hey len why are you lending out my doll ???:'(

but seariously call the old bill its clased as theft
do it today tommorow never comes

darragh

  • Posts: 2
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2004, 11:26:28 am »
I gave out a trailer mounted machine to a supplier who was stuck to do a demo. He had it for a week. I later found out that he rented it out to someone else for a few hundred quid to get a job done faster and never told me. Never lend equipment to anyone and always see the colour of money.

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2004, 07:50:03 pm »
Seanc

Sorry every one likes it, been told the own has good taste?  ;D It doing the rounds it’s in Spain at the moment may be back on 18th Dec if not I will personally pick it up in the New Year.

Woodman

It’s been 10 days has it been sorted?

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

paul@ctcs

Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2004, 08:20:53 pm »
Woodman,

So has this situation been resolved yet??


Paul

woodman

  • Posts: 1069
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2004, 12:35:12 pm »
In a word NO,

There are some ongoing enquiries so don't want to say too much at this stage ;)

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2004, 07:24:44 pm »
Woodman

I would give them till this Friday 3rd then the gloves would be off.

Don’t care if possession is 9 10th of the law what is mine is mine!!

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

RJS

  • Posts: 2
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2004, 01:07:24 pm »
Possession thankfully IS NOT 9/10th of the law as commonly believed...TITLE is having PROOF OF OWNERSHIP...and I'm sure the gentleman concerned will have a VAT receipt filed away somewhere for the machine.

In brief..For the charge of Theft to be justified, there must be evidence of an intention to 'permanantly deprive a person of an object or possession belonging to them'...so if the guy says "Oh sorry I forgot I had it ....didn't get the messages" etc he wouldn't be charged, as long as he returned the equipment.

My advise would be to send the guy a letter giving a deadline for the return of his machine, suggesting a donantion for the extended use of it (wear & tear/loss of revenue) with the threat of police involvement if this isn't adhered to. ;)

p.s. What the hell is a mechanical doll?  :-X

Rich

stevekennedy

  • Posts: 677
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2004, 08:05:55 pm »
Why not send the guy an invoice for £1000 assuming that he has decided to keep the machine. Send it by special delivery and make sure that you put clear terms on the invoice, (E.g. payment must be received within 14 days). The advantage of this is that, should he withhold payment again, you can now chase him through the small claims court which costs you nothing.

Once the small claims court finds in your favour, you can send the bailiffs round to enforce the order. He will have to pay them £1000 + their (usually exhorbatant) costs. Or else, they will seize goods to the 'auction value' of £1000 + their costs. Which will mean in reality the guy will probably lose £5000 worth of goods, or more! (This can be very satisfying to the innocent party   8) )

People usually pay when faced with the court order.

Hope you get it resolved!

PS If you have any emails, letters, postings etc Keep them safe. If you made the deal verbally, write down the precise date and time of the conversation and exactly what was said by both parties. Do this as soon as you can and keep it safe.

Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2004, 09:16:23 am »
 ;) ;)...Me and my mates love these DARK nights when people are getting home in the DARK.

 :o :o :o ;) ;)

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2004, 09:56:59 pm »
Woodman

What’s the position?

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

woodman

  • Posts: 1069
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2004, 03:49:09 pm »
Hi Len

watch this space!

Just waiting on a decision the outcome of which will decide the next course of action. ;)

bigfish

  • Posts: 62
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2004, 11:32:29 am »
 8) lets go and sort it ;)

woodman

  • Posts: 1069
Re: A word of Warning
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2004, 01:46:11 pm »
Update:

It give me no pleasure to inform you that unfortunately the person concerned has decided for what ever reasons not to respond to letters the owner of the machine sent or e-mails from here giving him the opportunity to put things right or at least explain himself.We all know some times we fall on hard times and money is tight but if this was the situation (and we have no way of knowing if it is) then a simple call or letter would have helped ease the situation and maybe some sort of arrangement could have been sorted out over payment.

The person concerned is Barry Livingstone of BJL Cleaning Services of Fife Scotland.

He posted on here as scotts cleaner or northern lights.

Musicman responded to a call for help for the loan of a machine with a view to buying it.Barry wanted to try it out for a night club contract he had.If it wasn't suitable it was to be shipped back to musicman no questions asked.All seems pretty straightforward and Barry duly confirmed the machines arrival at his premises for the trial clean.

Thats where it ends I am afraid,since it was sent early May of this year.No calls no letters no money no machine.

Musicman is £957.63 out of pocket which includes the machine,the VAT and the carriage which he also paid for.He could try the small claims court or the police for recovery all of which involves more time and money of course but might be better than just allowing him to get away with it.Or driving up to Fife and collecting it himself, if its  there at all who knows it may well have been sold on.

Point is, it all leaves a bad taste in the mouth and to my knowledge is the first time a member on here has ripped off a fellow member something unheard off as most are only to willing to help each other out. ( just look at Paul Chambers plight and the way everyone has responded).

I hope Barry Livingstone reads this and realises the upset he has caused and does the right thing by Musicman.

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2004, 04:46:43 pm »
Woodman

I know Musicman personally although we live in different parts of the country, it a shame that this person doesn’t live in my party of the world!!!! >:( >:(

Musicman sorry to here a scumbag ripped you off.

He appears to be a limited com any recourse on this also noted similar names in that part of the world


B.J.L.Cleaning Services Ltd

Unit 7 Culzean Place, Glamis Centre, Glenrothes KY7 4RX

BJL Cleaning Services Ltd
Barry Livingstone
2 Poplar Road
Glenrothes
KY6 Scotland

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

stevekennedy

  • Posts: 677
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2004, 04:52:40 pm »
Definitely pursue him through the small claims court. It will cost NOTHING at all.

Hope you get him (and your cash) ;)

DP

  • Posts: 576
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2004, 06:17:57 pm »
Sorry guys, something really smells about all this, just think about it for a mo, someone is getting played here and I don’t think its Musicman unless he has had a recent lobotomy.
Everyone seems normal untill you get to know them!

woodman

  • Posts: 1069
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2004, 06:23:31 pm »
what on earth do you mean ???

mark_roberts

  • Posts: 1899
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2004, 07:01:42 pm »
Why dosent the 'admin' only allow people to use correct names on this board and even to provide a trading address.  Cut out a lot of crap we see.

Mark

Fox

  • Posts: 824
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2004, 12:19:37 am »
Hmmmm - wondering myself what is going on?!?  Several people have put up contact name / address for Barry Livingstone - Musicman would have already done his homework on this - afterall he would know the address, -  he did have it shipped to him!

So what I'm wondering is what the post on here would do to make Barry return the machine when obviously he would have been contacted several times by said parties.

I also wonder why woodman posted this subject and not Musicman, maybe it will be said because of legal implications but surely that wouldn't wash as woodman would be seen as a vocal tool for the plaintive.

Well DP you got me thinking as Musicman is not stupid and with such a clear cut situation I am sure he would have resolved the matter without advice from others on the forum.

Fox





 

supershine

  • Posts: 5
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2004, 04:21:15 pm »
He is very lucky that he dont live in Cyprus ;D ;D

CATMAN

  • Posts: 217
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2004, 09:30:15 am »
Musicman,

You should take this guy to court, because in the end you should get back what you paid out. It will also stop him obtaining credit with a ccj against him.

How many other suppliers has he done this too and thought he can get away with.

People like him need to be put out of business, as the cleaning industry don't need him.

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2004, 11:11:10 am »
Sorry guys, something really smells about all this, just think about it for a mo, someone is getting played here and I don’t think its Musicman unless he has had a recent lobotomy.

Hi DP

I've emailed Barry twice to ask him his side of the story. We know that both he and the Company exists, he would have appeared to have had every opportunity to explain his version of events but has not done so - I'm not quite sure what you're getting at?

Unfortunately, the small claims court is not as straightforward for Scottish debtors as it is for English ones!

Does anyone here know Barry Livingston? I think the most optimistic way of sorting the problem is to arrange to go and collect it.

Regards

Mike

DP

  • Posts: 576
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2004, 03:55:46 am »
Hi Woodman/Mike

My point here is that this can only be half the story. Irrespective of the moral issues and whether this guy is guilty or not.

I find it very difficult to understand:

1) How Musicman made these mistakes in the first place like sending a £1000 piece of kit to a stranger in Scotland without any precautions. He simply isn’t that wet behind the ears.

2) If he really did make these mistakes, why would he then be happy for Woodman to publish all about it on here, bearing in mind the obvious views that some people might derive about the situation or him as a result and I don’t mean the "burn the witch" ones.  This can only compromise Musicmans position. 

3) Why if all is straight forward has he not taken any real action about it up till now and simply just dealt with it, he would know what to do. Even in Scotland its not that difficult, unless he knows he cant for some reason. Was there a dispute?

4) As Fox indicated, what could he get from here that he couldn’t already deal with himself and why is Woodman posting as there would be no legal difference in respect of public beratement. 

5) Is Express involved in this transaction somehow in respect of your emails to him, or do you know him personally. Otherwise why would he talk to a stranger or somebody that’s not involved about the matter?

6) Why would somebody simply not pay for something if they felt they could be held responsible and suffer the consequences unless they felt very confident about their situation.

On a separate note (and with respect):
Why has CIU got involved at this level thereby risking liability? I understand the moral issues of course but its not apparently been resolved yet so isnt it all premature?

Although if this is the start of a cleaning version of WATCHDOG, it might be an idea to start a new category, I can give you half a dozen to start you off  ;) ;D

However there is always a reason for everything

So my question is,  what’s the rest of the story??
Everyone seems normal untill you get to know them!

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2004, 01:13:25 pm »

5) Is Express involved in this transaction somehow in respect of your emails to him, or do you know him personally. Otherwise why would he talk to a stranger or somebody that’s not involved about the matter?

On a separate note (and with respect):
Why has CIU got involved at this level thereby risking liability? I understand the moral issues of course but its not apparently been resolved yet so isnt it all premature?

However there is always a reason for everything

So my question is,  what’s the rest of the story??


Hi DP

We didn't have anything to do the the 'transaction' at all - it is purely a moral involvement.

Although I know Musicman I wanted to email Barry Livingston myself before I was happy for anyone to start mentioning names here on the forum. I'm aware that there are 2 sides to a story but as Barry hasn't responded I have to assume that all the facts we've been given are true and accurate. If the machine was sent in good faith and hasn't been returned or paid for then I can't see what defence he has.

If it is a simple 'misunderstanding' that can be resolved (like who was going to pay to have it returned) then I'm perfectly happy to remove all references to it. If there's more to it than meets the eye then Barry is welcome to let me know and, again, I would be happy to remove the topic.

When people don't return emails or phone calls it's difficult to balance their side of the story!

Regards

Mike


stevekennedy

  • Posts: 677
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2004, 02:49:28 pm »

Unfortunately, the small claims court is not as straightforward for Scottish debtors as it is for English ones!


Err.....  I AM Scottish Mike  ???

Len Gribble

  • Posts: 5106
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2004, 07:35:03 pm »
Steve

I believe two different legal systems English/Welsh law then you have Scottish law plus a vote in our parliament. ;D ;D   Jock sorry cant spell joke!

Len
Always bear in mind that your own resolution to succeed is more important than any other. (Sidcup Kent)

Mike_Boxall

  • Posts: 1394
Re: A word of Warning (Update)
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2004, 01:06:24 pm »

Err.....  I AM Scottish Mike  ???

Sorry Steve, I'm not sure I understand your post?

What I was saying was, of all the bad debts we've had, it's the Scottish ones that we've had most problems resolving through the courts - the whole system with the Procurator Fiscal is not as straighforward as it is with the Small Claims Court. You can't simply get a County Court Judgment and then send in a Bailiff.

Regards

Mike

Doug Holloway

  • Posts: 3917
Re: A word of Warning (Update) New
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2005, 09:51:09 am »
Hi Guys,

I'm with Mark Roberts on this.

We seem to have various men/women? using psuedonyms who are naming the alledged perpertrator of a fraud.

It would have a lot more credability if the accusers would tell us who they are!

Cheers,

Doug