[Art]

Yes you did read it correctly £6. That's what some polish cleaners are charging around here at the moment.
Must be a struggle for them when they pay there running costs, PL insurance, uniforms, H & S etc..

[STUART]

Yep, I recently lost a contract becuase there was an influx of polish workers. they are willing to work for low pay and walk half way round town to different properties.

[stains-away]

Yes you did read it correctly £6. That's what some polish cleaners are charging around here at the moment.
Must be a struggle for them when they pay there running costs, PL insurance, uniforms, H & S etc..

Thats expensive  , I'd better give the wife a payrise then, Andy

[Fast 1 *]

its happening in all trades now.Whats being done about it?*uck all

[The Great One]

Hi

Not surprised...

Read in the paper yesterday that some building sites won't even entertain British workers, only Polish, etc, as they will work for much less, don't need overtime and work 7 days a week.

Unemployment has just gone up also..... :

Regards

Martin

[pes]

Great workers though, respect their employers, never winge, just get on a get the work done. 

[drivewasher]

If someone offered to clean my house for £6 I'd send em on thier bike.
How can a price like that include insurance tax and national insurance etc

[The Great One]

Hi

As you are an experienced cleaner of course you would, but what about joe public?

They don't even consider our:
PL Ins,
petrol,
materials,
tax,
Ins,
vehicle wear 'n tear,
time,
Paperwork
profit,
Etc ,etc...

Regards

Martin

[drivewasher]

Hi Martin,
Yes I see your point, It was just the £6 surely £6 to anyone is a ridiculouse figure.
I'm not an accountant, but if Iv'e paid say £350 a year for the last 5 years, and a polish accountant said he could do the job for £35, that would set alarm bells ringing?

[The Great One]

Hi

Yep it would, I think I would personally think they had missed 1 or 2 zero's off!

Regards

Martin

[angela carlton]

I really feel that this is the thin end of the wedge and there will only be one outcome at the end of the day, when employed people find themselves becoming redundant.

The problem is, it will happen much more quickly than you all expect and polititians will sit on their hands until it's too late.

The theory being put about by polititians, is that Polish people shoud be welcomed into this country as they are filling jobs where there is a shortage of homegrown skills!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is similar to what happened with massive Asian immigration 30 - 40 years ago.

Unions had fought, successfully, to get the working week reduced and get a better deal for the working class. But the Asians effectively turned back the clock by working double shifts and in doing so, cost jobs.   

With the Poles working for washers, the service industries, are going to be decimated and your futures are looking very uncertain.

Worried

You should be

Sorry for getting political, beginning to sound like my old man

Angie

[izabela]

I am Polish and I would care to differ from your views.
However I can understand your anger and worries but I don’t fully agree.
I have been in England for many years and I will stay. I also run a cleaning company and have for 5 years .I  pay my taxes, NI, petrol, insurances and employ my cleaners.
Maybe it is true that some desperate Polish sod does the full cleaning for £6 but I don’t think he/ she will be doing it for long , soon they will realise the price of “bread and butter” here and they will have to adjust to the cost of living in England and revise the prices for the service. Same for other industries.
The Majority of Poles coming here are not even speaking correct English. So how can they be taken seriously. There will always be a market for slave/cheap labour. So not to worry guys you will stay in control.
From  my point of view if  a customer is looking for a secure and quality service they will know where to find  and how to look for it.
As for unemployment - for some  people out of work it is just better for them to stay unemployed, as the state will pay for rent, doctor, dentist, schools, and it will even pay you to sit on your backside all day. Ok £40 p/w is not a lot but when you don’t have to pay bills……………well you work it out!
The people who complain the most tend to be the laziest people anyway. I offered a single mum part time job that was convenient around her children school times and have been turned down.

If the English people are so worried why are not doing their own jobs properly……I.e.:

Last week on a train I overheard 3 labourers complaining about polish workers………….about how hard and fast they work…………….sounds to me that they are worried about losing their own jobs to polish workers……………so what was their great plan…work hard and fast like the poles???     No slow down and let the poles do even more of the work. So when the foreman comes on the site and  observes that the poles are covered in dust  and  dirt………..they English have barely gotten their hands dirty……..the foreman thinks hang on a minute…….the poles are on less money but do twice the work of the Englishman,
If you were the boss who do you keep employing?



iza

[ics highland]

Hi Izabella

Could not agree with you more, and no I'm not polish but scottish.

Many people seem to be under the misconception that the polish works are cheap labour.  Well to some this may be the case, but they better watch out. 

Polish works, and infact any worker that comes to the UK from a country that is part of European Union,  has the same employment rights with regards to the national minuim wage.

I have had jobs advertised for many weeks now, with the same rates of pay no matter what colour, sex, religion, age, or nationality. Its called being an equal oppurtinities employer.  Everyone gets an application, everyone gets a chance to explain there experience and what they have to offer the company.

The fact of the matter is out of over 95 enquiries about the job, only 60 application forms came back in, out of the sixty 50 were offered an interview, 31 turned up for interviews, out of that 7 were offered jobs, 3 Polish, 2 English, 2 Scottish.  All seven accepted the job offers.  (But only 4 Turned up for there first day at work, 3 Polish and 1 Scottish).  That says somthing.  The Polish workers are prepared to do a fare days work for a fare days pay. Thats more than I can say for some people.

Give these people a chance, they will work hard for you.  But please adopt the attitude that I have over the years  (don't ask anyone to do, what you would not be prepared to do yourself.


Regards

David
ICS Highland

[spindle]

i know who i'd employ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Great One]

Guys

Of course it doesn't matter which country you are from, you get your workers and your lazy gits, wether they are Polish, British.

The flat down from me has been partially redeveloped by Polish workers.

When the job got cancelled they squatted for 3 days, chuffing ciggies all day, drinking and playing music until 2am.

Took me 10 days to get rid of the stench in my place, they weren't re-employed thank god but there are good and bad in all races.

Regards

Martin

[drivewasher]

Bit of point I know, but here goes, I do some trucking in my off days for agencies class 1 work. A transport manager told me that he was offered a large premium to take Polish drivers from agency pool.
But after researching with other depots, decided not to as most could not speak or read english, this posed a problem for h&s and directions etc. plus the enormouse amount of damage that was caused.
But having said that one large superstore company in south I believe give the Polish driver one designated store that they have been to a couple of times with a trainer and they just go from depot to their "own" store every day, problem solved and works quite well

[bluecrescent]

The Polish are probably good Polishers! 

[Robert Parry]

Its all about attitude, poles, like I have stated before on another post, great workers, if you treat them fair and with respect, you will, as a general rule get it back in spades, only problem really, is the little englander attitude of clients staff sometimes, regards,

Rob

[keith b]

Angie,

I agree with your sentiments,

One of the real problems is that politicians have no regard for controls on work permits or boarders because they have business interests in the private sectors. and are willing to adopt the free market dogma at all costs. and it all started with Thatcher.

What they should do is by all means let people in here to work, but only if someone leaves this country to work in their country.

If these foreign workers had to pay rent, taxes, accomodation, council tax, gas/electric bills etc, and had to live here fulltime over a period of time, then they they would not survive. and thats without the pressure its putting on our housing and health services on this little island of ours.

Much of the money they make go`s home to countries like Poland to feed there families, so the question is it good for the long term economy of this country if most the money being created here is not being spent or recirculated here?

Much of the other problems is that the national minimum wage is too low to attract workers from this country, especially for those who live in the southeast of the country where its more expensive to live. and that without the stealth taxes we now pay under gordon brown.

Even though i don`t agree with most of his policies, Ken Livingstone got it right when he said that the minimum wage should rise to £7.20, then we could do away with tax credits to top up low incomes.

I feel better now!

 


 

[pdl]

In reply to your last thread KP.

What a load of tosh.  I employ Polish workers, they pay rent, they pay taxes, they pay gas/electric, they pay their taxes in every way shape and form and they have been living here for two odd years, so of them with their families  Some of them have even told me they will noyt be going back to Poland.

They get paid well ( the same as their English counterparts), they are not afraid of a bit of hard work.

I agree with you about the national minimum wage aspect of your thread, but it's very diffucult to get  the clients of the industry that we work in to pay such high prices for something as simple as cleaning, although those of us in the industry know it's not as easy as some people might think.

Cor, I feel better now as well!!

[window pain]

I am Polish and I would care to differ from your views.
However I can understand your anger and worries but I don’t fully agree.
I have been in England for many years and I will stay. I also run a cleaning company and have for 5 years .I  pay my taxes, NI, petrol, insurances and employ my cleaners.
Maybe it is true that some desperate Polish sod does the full cleaning for £6 but I don’t think he/ she will be doing it for long , soon they will realise the price of “bread and butter” here and they will have to adjust to the cost of living in England and revise the prices for the service. Same for other industries.
The Majority of Poles coming here are not even speaking correct English. So how can they be taken seriously. There will always be a market for slave/cheap labour. So not to worry guys you will stay in control.
From  my point of view if  a customer is looking for a secure and quality service they will know where to find  and how to look for it.
As for unemployment - for some  people out of work it is just better for them to stay unemployed, as the state will pay for rent, doctor, dentist, schools, and it will even pay you to sit on your backside all day. Ok £40 p/w is not a lot but when you don’t have to pay bills……………well you work it out!
The people who complain the most tend to be the laziest people anyway. I offered a single mum part time job that was convenient around her children school times and have been turned down.

If the English people are so worried why are not doing their own jobs properly……I.e.:

Last week on a train I overheard 3 labourers complaining about polish workers………….about how hard and fast they work…………….sounds to me that they are worried about losing their own jobs to polish workers……………so what was their great plan…work hard and fast like the poles???     No slow down and let the poles do even more of the work. So when the foreman comes on the site and  observes that the poles are covered in dust  and  dirt………..they English have barely gotten their hands dirty……..the foreman thinks hang on a minute…….the poles are on less money but do twice the work of the Englishman,
If you were the boss who do you keep employing?



iza

have you ever heard  the saying only fools and horses work for nothing! maybe we should change that to fools and poles, theres no virtue or dignity in letting yourself be exploited, the companies who employ these people don't take a cut in profits they just make more money, the british working class took a very long tme to achieve the rights  they enjoy now, buts thats all being destroyed before  their  very eyes .

[window pain]

if you have problems with the polish, why don't you go to boots and get a bottle of polish remover.

[window pain]

Hi

Not surprised...

Read in the paper yesterday that some building sites won't even entertain British workers, only Polish, etc, as they will work for much less, don't need overtime and work 7 days a week.

Unemployment has just gone up also..... :

Regards

Martin

unemployment has gone up 250,000 in the last year alone who's paying for that?

[keith b]

pld

Have I touched a nerve with you?

You may well employ Polish workers which are perfectly legal in every sense, but i wonder if this is true for the majority of the Polish or other self employed black market cash-in-hand workers who come from the poorer states of the EU who work in this country?

You are right, some of them want to stay because they have never had it so good, but i wonder what the medium and long term outcome will be when the natives find they are unemployed and are then having to work for 60 to 70 hours a week just to make ends meet to compete on a unfair playing field.

It makes you wonder why the government were willing to pay them £2k to go home?

Also as a country we already work the longest hours in europe because of the demise of the trade unions in the late 80s, if we carry on the way it is, we will have a civil war on our hands which will lead to unrest just like the early years in germany before WW2 when one section of the community had more wealth than the other.

Do you want another tyrant like Hitler coming to power?

Bring back Lec Walesa!

Now I feel really good!

[Paul Coleman]

pld

Have I touched a nerve with you?

You may well employ Polish workers which are perfectly legal in every sense, but i wonder if this is true for the majority of the Polish or other self employed black market cash-in-hand workers who come from the poorer states of the EU who work in this country?

You are right, some of them want to stay because they have never had it so good, but i wonder what the medium and long term outcome will be when the natives find they are unemployed and are then having to work for 60 to 70 hours a week just to make ends meet to compete on a unfair playing field.

It makes you wonder why the government were willing to pay them £2k to go home?

Also as a country we already work the longest hours in europe because of the demise of the trade unions in the late 80s, if we carry on the way it is, we will have a civil war on our hands which will lead to unrest just like the early years in germany before WW2 when one section of the community had more wealth than the other.

Do you want another tyrant like Hitler coming to power?

<SNIP>

Thought we already had one.

[window pain]

pld

Have I touched a nerve with you?

You may well employ Polish workers which are perfectly legal in every sense, but i wonder if this is true for the majority of the Polish or other self employed black market cash-in-hand workers who come from the poorer states of the EU who work in this country?

You are right, some of them want to stay because they have never had it so good, but i wonder what the medium and long term outcome will be when the natives find they are unemployed and are then having to work for 60 to 70 hours a week just to make ends meet to compete on a unfair playing field.

It makes you wonder why the government were willing to pay them £2k to go home?

Also as a country we already work the longest hours in europe because of the demise of the trade unions in the late 80s, if we carry on the way it is, we will have a civil war on our hands which will lead to unrest just like the early years in germany before WW2 when one section of the community had more wealth than the other.

Do you want another tyrant like Hitler coming to power?

<SNIP>

Thought we already had one.

herr blair likes to state that immigration is good for this country, which country is he talking about i wonder? is it capitalist britain or the real britain, he boasts that more businesses are starting up than ever, yet unemployment is rocketing 250,000 in the last year alone, this is a paradox is it not? what is happening is the growth of so called "low wage business models" that is businesses that start up to exploit foreign labour they employ people at rock bottom wages  and then proceed to under cut legitmate businesses which pay proper wages and conditions.  they also encourage their employees to exploit the tax credit system,  so in effect the tax payer is putting other tax payers out of work.

[Robert Parry]

Cant help myself, here goes!!!!!!!!!

Last time I looked this country was a democracy(well at least until the ID card brigade come in).
Most of this countrys wealth was created by our forefathers rape and pillage of others lands, it used to be called the British Empire, you know. Now me, I like history, its a passion of mine, I still even stand for the National Anthem, I am proud to be British, yes there are lots of things I disagree with, thats why I vote!

Immigration
Every country in the world has an immigration policy, Africa included, at the moment we do not have a sustainable policy in this area, the govt. of the day has lost control.

Maggie Thatcher
Second only to Churchill in my opinion, part of democracy, a very important part, is the free market, capitalism, you know, nearly all of us on this forum run our own business's, so we are in effect, the free market, its no good complaining about the demise of the unions, the govt. of the day, must have the power to govern, not some jumped up union official who thinks he can hold the country to ransom, do you not remember the winter of discontent?

Tax Credits
Complete farce, all workers, should be treated with respect and able to obtain a fair days pay for a fair days work, no tax system should subsidise this, it is morally wrong, it is also the slow road to financial meltdown, people moan all the time about unfair working practices driving down costs, but how many times have you lost a contract to a lower bidder? As an industry, it is our responsibility to inform and educate our clients, how do we do this? How about detailing some of the sharp practices these companies employ, once our clients are educated on this subject, then maybe, things will change, or here is another radical idea, real legistation!

Hitler
Another passion of mine, here was an ordinary man, who through the power of speech and ideas led the German people to the abyss, why did they fall for this, simple really, he lead them down the road, little by little, bit by bit, just for the record, he started the ball rolling by using, the census and ID cards too, makes you wonder what Tony's up to !!!!!!!

Regards,

Rob

[window pain]

Cant help myself, here goes!!!!!!!!!

Last time I looked this country was a democracy(well at least until the ID card brigade come in).
Most of this countrys wealth was created by our forefathers rape and pillage of others lands, it used to be called the British Empire, you know. Now me, I like history, its a passion of mine, I still even stand for the National Anthem, I am proud to be British, yes there are lots of things I disagree with, thats why I vote!

Immigration
Every country in the world has an immigration policy, Africa included, at the moment we do not have a sustainable policy in this area, the govt. of the day has lost control.

Maggie Thatcher
Second only to Churchill in my opinion, part of democracy, a very important part, is the free market, capitalism, you know, nearly all of us on this forum run our own business's, so we are in effect, the free market, its no good complaining about the demise of the unions, the govt. of the day, must have the power to govern, not some jumped up union official who thinks he can hold the country to ransom, do you not remember the winter of discontent?

Tax Credits
Complete farce, all workers, should be treated with respect and able to obtain a fair days pay for a fair days work, no tax system should subsidise this, it is morally wrong, it is also the slow road to financial meltdown, people moan all the time about unfair working practices driving down costs, but how many times have you lost a contract to a lower bidder? As an industry, it is our responsibility to inform and educate our clients, how do we do this? How about detailing some of the sharp practices these companies employ, once our clients are educated on this subject, then maybe, things will change, or here is another radical idea, real legistation!

Hitler
Another passion of mine, here was an ordinary man, who through the power of speech and ideas led the German people to the abyss, why did they fall for this, simple really, he lead them down the road, little by little, bit by bit, just for the record, he started the ball rolling by using, the census and ID cards too, makes you wonder what Tony's up to !!!!!!!

Regards,

Rob

your point about having a sustainable immigration policy is a pipedream, european law takes priority over british domestic law any laws brought in to protect the interests of the british people would be challanged in the e.u. courts,as has been the case over the years. the fact is that britain is no longer a sovereign state it is a province of europe  two thirds of legislation passed every year comes from europe.politicians talk tough about doing this or that , but at the end of the day if it's not in the interests of europe theres no chance of anything being done.

[Robert Parry]

Tell me something I dont know!!!
But we brits, can only be pushed so far, you only have to look at what happend to Maggie, sooner or later, later probably, the brits will wake up, or at least, heres hoping anyway!

Regards,
Rob

[Terry_Burrows]

didnt you know thats why they all come here because we are a push over try going to the states and doing it

[D woods]

Hi Guys
A few of the cleaning companies in London are now starting to use East
European window cleaners. I have met a few of them and I think in 5 years
time nearly all window cleaning contractors will be using them for a big part
of there business.

They are hard working polite and they look the part as well.

[keith b]

Well said window pain,

In principle the EU was a good idea when the other state member countries had simular standards of economy into which we could trade on a equal footing, unfortunately the acceptence of poorer countries into the EU has led to a cheap labour economy to compete with the far east, although some might say opportunities.

We should never have allowed our existence in the EU to be dictated by brussels on issues other than trade alone, its time to get out by the vote that our government were suppose to give us under this so -called demorcracy of ours.

Rob: Likewise I agree with some of what you said, but not all!

[Robert Parry]

Getting a bit political now methinks!!

Seriously, the world, as we know it revolves around trade, that means goods and services, this provides opportunity for all, migration from one country or indeed area has always taken place, over the last 15 yrs or perhaps even longer HMG has allowed itself to be drawn into the EU vision of one state in order to compete with the US and now the emerging Tiger economies. This has resulted in allowing EU laws and regulations to supercede member states own laws and regulations, on nearly all aspects of personal and business life, if you go back to the beginning, the birth of the EU was actually brought about, by Frances fear of a united Germany, the thinking being, that economic partners, could never again come to blows.

In a democracy, the will of the majority, is supposedly, the one that carries the day, this country, has a christian majority, yet little by little, this fact is being eroded by those who govern us, go to any major city in Pakistan for example, and you will find, in the main, a relaxed, western style society, in all manner of ways, such as dress, shopping, freedom etc. It is ironic, is it not, when you compare that situation to this country?

When we, as consumers, or indeed, as business owners, do we not try to find the best/cheapest deal, we then moan about being undercut by companies who force down the price of our own services, these other (cowboy?) suppliers, may well indeed staff their newly won contracts with foreign labour, pay less than the Min. wage etc, but exactly whose fault is that? I firmly believe, that all workers are entitled to a fair and livable wage, apparently, the Nat. Min. Wage is legally, enforceable, yeah, right, I know of 3 companies, who blatently ignore this.

Keith b, just 2 points, the Common Market was what we signed upto, not the EU, that was done by stealth and outright lies, we have never been given the vote on this, and our so called partners in europe, have in the past, broken countless rules and regualations whenever it has suited their own national interest, including the big two, Germany and France, just ask our farmers and bankers!

D. Woods, cant say I blame them myself, most young people in this country today leave school with little education and little respect for themselves or indeed others, education, real education has become a dirty word these days, no discipline, no cane, no punishment, if a child is unable to do as he or she pleases, social workers scream abuse. The only time you seem to get any sense out of a young person these days is via text messages, then you have to hope you can decode the damn message!

Regards,

Rob

[window pain]

Getting a bit political now methinks!!

Seriously, the world, as we know it revolves around trade, that means goods and services, this provides opportunity for all, migration from one country or indeed area has always taken place, over the last 15 yrs or perhaps even longer HMG has allowed itself to be drawn into the EU vision of one state in order to compete with the US and now the emerging Tiger economies. This has resulted in allowing EU laws and regulations to supercede member states own laws and regulations, on nearly all aspects of personal and business life, if you go back to the beginning, the birth of the EU was actually brought about, by Frances fear of a united Germany, the thinking being, that economic partners, could never again come to blows.

In a democracy, the will of the majority, is supposedly, the one that carries the day, this country, has a christian majority, yet little by little, this fact is being eroded by those who govern us, go to any major city in Pakistan for example, and you will find, in the main, a relaxed, western style society, in all manner of ways, such as dress, shopping, freedom etc. It is ironic, is it not, when you compare that situation to this country?

When we, as consumers, or indeed, as business owners, do we not try to find the best/cheapest deal, we then moan about being undercut by companies who force down the price of our own services, these other (cowboy?) suppliers, may well indeed staff their newly won contracts with foreign labour, pay less than the Min. wage etc, but exactly whose fault is that? I firmly believe, that all workers are entitled to a fair and livable wage, apparently, the Nat. Min. Wage is legally, enforceable, yeah, right, I know of 3 companies, who blatently ignore this.

Keith b, just 2 points, the Common Market was what we signed upto, not the EU, that was done by stealth and outright lies, we have never been given the vote on this, and our so called partners in europe, have in the past, broken countless rules and regualations whenever it has suited their own national interest, including the big two, Germany and France, just ask our farmers and bankers!

D. Woods, cant say I blame them myself, most young people in this country today leave school with little education and little respect for themselves or indeed others, education, real education has become a dirty word these days, no discipline, no cane, no punishment, if a child is unable to do as he or she pleases, social workers scream abuse. The only time you seem to get any sense out of a young person these days is via text messages, then you have to hope you can decode the d**n message!

Regards,

Rob

hi rob this is the point i'm trying to make, you talk about indiscipline ect. if any british government tried to bring back the cane in schools for example. they would be told thats its illegal under european law, as for immigration it's not dictated by the people of this country,  it's dictated by the amount of people who want to come here, it's not a case of can we go to the uk?. it's a case of will we go to the u.k.   

[keith b]

Rob,

Your right, it was Ted Heath who never gave us the opportunity of a vote to refuse or join the common market, and yes it was originally brought about by the fears france had about germany after the war.

Basically the monster got out of control by bureucrats creating legislation involving issues beyond basic economic trade, and thus the common market become the EU with its crazy laws that have since threatened our independant sovereignty and juristiction.