Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: dazmond on December 14, 2018, 08:57:24 am
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this is for you a900!i bet it ends up longer than the hydroheat thread over the next month or so! ;D
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Yeh it’s got me interested today cos it’s bloody freezin!
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Haha. Better start trying to work out how to get these photos uploaded. Somehow I can upload PDFs.
For anyone interested. First one shows the size of the heat exchanger I used. I used one this size because I didn’t want one that was 2 small and not knowing what would be 2 small. So basically looked for one that was the same size as a Webasto plate heat exchanger or larger. When I add a second it will be much smaller to fill a gap on my board. As I really think it’s larger than needed but for the main hose I wanted to make sure I got the hottest temperature I could.
I’m working on a recirculation that switches the pump to a low speed the same as 11 on my controller and diverts the water back to the tank. So when I finish a job and drive to the next one or get distracted chatting with customers I can keep the heater idling so it doesn’t shut down. (Learnt they use less fuel this way) This will be on a switch for now but might use a wireless fob and control the electric reel with it too. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F131730091890
This will save me time turning my pump down and plugging the reel hose in to recirculate every time the van is moved.
Frostat to come. Which will use most of the circuit set up for the recirculation but use a little board that you can get for £2 that can turn the pump and heater on and off at whatever temp I set. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283139826056
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that heat exchanger is MASSIVE compared to mine from grippatank! ;D
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sorry, thick here - how does it work ? or are there other parts needed ?
Darran
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Haha. Better start trying to work out how to get these photos uploaded. Somehow I can upload PDFs.
For anyone interested. First one shows the size of the heat exchanger I used. I used one this size because I didn’t want one that was 2 small and not knowing what would be 2 small. So basically looked for one that was the same size as a Webasto plate heat exchanger or larger. When I add a second it will be much smaller to fill a gap on my board. As I really think it’s larger than needed but for the main hose I wanted to make sure I got the hottest temperature I could.
I’m working on a recirculation that switches the pump to a low speed the same as 11 on my controller and diverts the water back to the tank. So when I finish a job and drive to the next one or get distracted chatting with customers I can keep the heater idling so it doesn’t shut down. (Learnt they use less fuel this way) This will be on a switch for now but might use a wireless fob and control the electric reel with it too. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F131730091890
This will save me time turning my pump down and plugging the reel hose in to recirculate every time the van is moved.
Frostat to come. Which will use most of the circuit set up for the recirculation but use a little board that you can get for £2 that can turn the pump and heater on and off at whatever temp I set. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283139826056
It would also help you to have a bigger header tank as it becomes a heat reservoir and extra heat buffer. It takes more water to heat up and gives you more flexibility in that half heat mode window.
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Spruce that’s something I’ve been thinking about. It’s quite a small reservoir really. It does have its advantages. Should result in faster warm ups. But in reality to heat the extra 5l or something isn’t going to be long.
Although I have thought about this and I’m not sure how much different it would make. I’m still taking out the same energy from the reservoir whatever the size through the heat exchanger. So a larger reservoir would just result in less temp dip but same energy back in to get to the shut down level. Surely? Feel this one is confusing me 😂 sometimes like that then all of a sudden get it
How long does your take to shut off? Does it have any system to keep it running on idle?
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sorry, thick here - how does it work ? or are there other parts needed ?
Darran
Put simply 2 water circuits
Heater circuit or loop. Water in the heater through to the exchanger fed back to a reservoir continues.
Pole Circuit. Water runs through the heat exchanger taking heat from the heater curcuit and heads down your hose and to your pole
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Basically the same principal as an indirect calorifier :)
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Spruce that’s something I’ve been thinking about. It’s quite a small reservoir really. It does have its advantages. Should result in faster warm ups. But in reality to heat the extra 5l or something isn’t going to be long.
Although I have thought about this and I’m not sure how much different it would make. I’m still taking out the same energy from the reservoir whatever the size through the heat exchanger. So a larger reservoir would just result in less temp dip but same energy back in to get to the shut down level. Surely? Feel this one is confusing me 😂 sometimes like that then all of a sudden get it
How long does your take to shut off? Does it have any system to keep it running on idle?
I don't have a diesel heater in the van atm. I'm going to fit mine when I get my 'new' van sorted. (I wish I had a bit of warm water on occassions this winter so far - I'm not liking the stiff hoses or the cold hands.)
I'm just making that observation on the size of the tank because HeatWave and Purefreedom use a 12 liter tank. They they also do recommend not to fill it fully.
Here is what the Thermo90 manual says;
When the water temperature reaches 72ºC, the heater will switch to a lower output. The combustion air motor speed and fuel pump delivery are reduced.
If the coolant temperature continues to rise by a further 10ºC, the heater will then automatically stop combustion, fuel delivery will cease and the flame within the combustion chamber will be extinguished. The heater will then commence a 180 purge cycle.
The heater is now in stand-by mode. The green operation light will still be illuminated and the water pump will continue to circulate the hot water. The heater will automatically restart if the water temperature falls by 15 C, going through the same start cycle as before.
If you have a bigger header tank it will take the same heat delivery from the Webasto longer to raise the water that extra 10 degrees before the heater goes into shutdown mode.
I have an additional 10 plate heat exchanger which I want to add into the heating circuit. This will be have its own pump controlled by a digital temperature controller. Hot water pumped through this heat exchanger will return to the van's tank. The idea is that the controller will be set to switch on this additional pump at say 80 degrees and switch off just before the heater would normally go back into full heat mode. (I don't know exactly at what temperature the heater is programmed to return to full heat mode, but on the Thermo Top C its 68 degrees.) I will also put a cheap PWM controller into the circuit to reduce the pump's flow rate. What I want to do is keep the pump kicking on and off to keep the burner in this half heat window.
My problem is that I don't find window cleaning very mentally stimulating, but I do love talking to our customers. This is why I need the automatic heat reduction included.
Yes, having a bigger header tank with more water will take longer to heat, but PureFreedom have suggested its best to start your heater before you get to your first customer. Most of our customers are a 10 to 15 minute drive away so starting the heater at home before setting off is what we would do. The van's alternator will also supply the initial current surge need to start the boiler.
Dazmond manually redirects heated water to his tank to keep his T90 running continiously. I want to do the same electronically.
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Ok so I’ve got it now. You will have more energy in your heating system with a bigger tank but it will take longer to run the pole before the coolant temp drops enough to kick the pump on compared to me. (So it will sit at idle longer) So loosing a larger amount of energy out the coolant loop which when the flow is stopped gives longer for the heater to get it to temp as a buffer.
But say an extra 5l water in the loop and say the idle is 20c lower than full power. Using the calculator it would take 0.11kw to heat that volume.
9.1 kw heater running at full power. So in 1 minute it could pridice heat energy at 9.1/60= 0.15kw per min.
So in my mind it would only extend the buffer time by a minute. How long do people get with their grippatank heaters before they shut off?
I’m quite sure tho that the heater runs at 7.6kw when the temps are higher already. So 0.12kw per min
Am I missing something?
As far as recirculation goes. I think your plan of the extra exchanger is the best. I’m planning to wire a DPDT relay that has the pump as the output. With the switched input coming from the controller and the second from a PWM board that runs the pump at minimum neeeed to keep the heater idling. At the same time it will also operate a normally closed solenoid valve on the output of the heat exchanger to recirculate water back to the main tank. I thought about how this could be temp controlled but I don’t know a way to switch the pump and solenoid back when I need flow out the pole automatically with this set up.
With another heat exchanger it could be wired to a temperature control circuit which would recongnise when the temp drops again through using the pole
I was trying to avoid an extra heat exchanger for packaging reasons 😂
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As far as a recirculation pump for an additional heater ..
This would work https://m.banggood.com/DC-12V-5_5M-1000LH-Brushless-Motor-Submersible-Water-Pump-p-1118173.html?gmcCountry=GB¤cy=GBP&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_union&utm_content=2zou&utm_campaign=ssc-gb-en-all&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiJnZo6-h3wIVZr7tCh3yUQZBEAQYAiABEgLWH_D_BwE
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As far as a recirculation pump for an additional heater ..
This would work https://m.banggood.com/DC-12V-5_5M-1000LH-Brushless-Motor-Submersible-Water-Pump-p-1118173.html?gmcCountry=GB¤cy=GBP&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_union&utm_content=2zou&utm_campaign=ssc-gb-en-all&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiJnZo6-h3wIVZr7tCh3yUQZBEAQYAiABEgLWH_D_BwE
You could use any 12v water pump as long as it delivers enough 'head' to pump water back onto where your connector is, usually at the top of your tank. I thought of my Shurflo pump as it will handle 60 degrees and ticks all the other boxes as well.
It would also have to be able to be mounted securely. That pump linked to would need those suction cups replaced with something better.
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Ok so I’ve got it now. You will have more energy in your heating system with a bigger tank but it will take longer to run the pole before the coolant temp drops enough to kick the pump on compared to me. (So it will sit at idle longer) So loosing a larger amount of energy out the coolant loop which when the flow is stopped gives longer for the heater to get it to temp as a buffer.
But say an extra 5l water in the loop and say the idle is 20c lower than full power. Using the calculator it would take 0.11kw to heat that volume.
9.1 kw heater running at full power. So in 1 minute it could pridice heat energy at 9.1/60= 0.15kw per min.
So in my mind it would only extend the buffer time by a minute. How long do people get with their grippatank heaters before they shut off?
I’m quite sure tho that the heater runs at 7.6kw when the temps are higher already. So 0.12kw per min
Am I missing something?
As far as recirculation goes. I think your plan of the extra exchanger is the best. I’m planning to wire a DPDT relay that has the pump as the output. With the switched input coming from the controller and the second from a PWM board that runs the pump at minimum neeeed to keep the heater idling. At the same time it will also operate a normally closed solenoid valve on the output of the heat exchanger to recirculate water back to the main tank. I thought about how this could be temp controlled but I don’t know a way to switch the pump and solenoid back when I need flow out the pole automatically with this set up.
With another heat exchanger it could be wired to a temperature control circuit which would recongnise when the temp drops again through using the pole
I was trying to avoid an extra heat exchanger for packaging reasons 😂
Daz did say somewhere what flow setting he used on his Spring controller to keep the heater running.
Remember, the specs say that in reduced heat mode the heater is producing 1.8kw of heat. What they also don't tell you is that half the heat produced is wasted through the exhaust.
On my Thermo Top C 5.2kw heater, I managed to raise the temperature from 9 degrees to 35 degrees at a flow of 1.5lpm. According to the formula that required 2.65kw so the remaining heat was being lost elsewhere. That exhaust was very hot.
This wasn't a scientific experiment. Before I set up a test rig I could never understand why cleaners struggled with heat using a 5.2kw Thermo Top C as a heat source. According to the formula they should have been able to supply enough heat to provide warm water for 2 cleaners.
When I realised that what I thought would work on paper didn't work in practice, I shelved the idea.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1544871949_DSCF0551b.jpg)
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Hey Spruce , do you have a link to this formula please ?
I can build and tinker for England but maths was never my strong point !
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Hey Spruce , do you have a link to this formula please ?
I can build and tinker for England but maths was never my strong point !
;D
I couldn't find an online calculator to do it for me. Someone did put up a link once but I have tried to google it to no avail.
Calculate the kilowatt-hours (kWh) required to heat the water using the following formula: Pt = (4.2 × L × T ) ÷ 3600. Pt is the power used to heat the water, in kWh. L is the number of liters of water that is being heated and T is the difference in temperature from what you started with, listed in degrees Celsius.
So in my case;
4.2 x 90l (1.5lpm x 60 for an hour) x 26 (raising the temperature from 9 degrees C in the tank to 35 degrees C at the brush head) = 9828 ÷ 3600 = 2.73kwh. The Thermo Top C is 5.2kwh.
Its probably better than that as there would be a little heat lost to the environment with those copper pipes and from the sides of the heater itself. I would have boxed the whole unit in to help retain that heat lost, but I could see that the heat loss was mininal when compared to the heat loss out of the exhaust of the boiler.
Another thing I failed to consider was that water flows quicker when its hot. So my controller set on 3 delivered 1.5lpm of water at the brush head when cold. The same controller on the same flow showed a marked increase of water flow at the jets when heated. But I failed to measure the amount lpm of water after it was heated. So for example, if the water flow increased from 1.5lpm to 2lpm, the outcome of my experiment is flawed.
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Right , with you sort of ??? ,
What is the 4.2 though :-\ Told you I was fick
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Hold on , is 4.2 the coolant in the system ?
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Hold on , is 4.2 the coolant in the system ?
No. The 4.2 is part of the formula so that stays the same as does the 3600.
All you need to tell the formula is how much water you want to heat and how much the temperature rise required is.
So lets say you have my 1.5lpm of flow you want to heat and you need the temperature to rise to 45 degrees C from 9 degrees.
So we have 4.2 x 90 liters per hour x 36 = 13608 ÷ 3600 = 3.78kwh.
But also consider that this is a lot more complex than this. All this formula does is to take one single rise in temperature of 90 liters of water by 36 degrees. It doesn't take into account any form of heat loss.
If you let the system recycle that heated water then everything changes. Now you need the same amount of heat to raise the temperature of the water from 45 degrees C by 36 degrees so you now have 81 degrees C after your second pass.
I know this is confusing because I ran this system on full throttle and was only able to extract a temperature of 35 degrees. The water after the heat exchanger was cold so that says to me that as the water going to my brush was taking every scrap of heat from the boiler (transfer of heat from the internal hot water side to the side going to the brush.)
Now had I left the boiler to heat up the internal water circuit then it would have probably given me a much higher temperature at the brush head. Yes, I would have zapped more heat from the boiler circuit when I cleaned the back 2 upstairs windows, But when I switch my tap off to drag the hose to clean the side and front windows its giving the boiler a chance to recover the heat I've taken, putting it back into the header tank to store it for later when I start cleaning again.
Hence the reason why PF tell a purchaser to preheat the system so its up running and hot when the cleaner starts cleaning his first house.
Your gas heater works totally differently as it heats the water going to your brush in the internal heat exchanger. It only gets to do that once. It is a true heat on demand heater.
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I just looked at your setup you did and the thing that struck me was the amount of complex copper pipe you put in it that was not insulated , do you think this was a factor in losing so much heat and only getting 35 at the head .
Was that the only build or were there simpler ones first ?
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I find it very interesting that your water was cold when it came out the exchanger. That tells us that all the energy was removed to the pole hose. My exchanger output is still toasty using the 9kw.
It was because of one of your other posts explaining the 5kw heat issue for 2 people that made me splash out on the Thermo 90 😂😂
Did you ever try it without the thermostatic valve to see if you could get more temperate?
What about running the hot input on the coolant loop to first mix with the output side of the heat exchanger?
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Yeah feet would defo need changing on that pump. It it gives an idea that a recirculation pump can be inexpensive. Seen someone reviewing that pump and seems decent for the money. If you already have a spare pump makes sense to use that.
When mines running at 1.8kw there is very little heat out the exhaust compared to full power. So I presume more efficient at that range. Either way I’m waiting for delivery of an egr cooler off a ford which will get put Inline with the exhaust to preheat the water. For now I’m going to preheat the water on the second set up with it. As that is used by my helper and we’re running a gas boiler on his set up for now to use the remaining bottles of gas I have. The boiler has a temperature display on so will be interesting to see what temp it has coming into it when turning the switch on with no gas hooked up
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I just looked at your setup you did and the thing that struck me was the amount of complex copper pipe you put in it that was not insulated , do you think this was a factor in losing so much heat and only getting 35 at the head .
Was that the only build or were there simpler ones first ?
This was the only build. I was aware that a certain amount of heat would be lost to the atmosphere with that copper piping. But the vast majority of heat is lost through the exhaust. It was enough to tell me that the 5.2kw Webasto Thermo Top C wasn't man enough to supply a 2 man system. I didn't realise that a large portion of the quoted 5.2kw didn't account for heat loss. I had planned to box the unit is fully to contain the heat loss later, but as the results were so far away from reality, I discontinued the project.
Before I built this the formula told me that 5.2kw would manage to provide enough heat for 2 of us; enough to get our water warm and hoses supple.
I then bought a 9.1kw Heatwave which was spares or repair. Its all working now, but as the van I had and still have is falling apart with rust, I decided that when I got a replacement van I would fit it to that. But my current van has lasted longer than I though it would with a bit of patching here and there.
I also lost some of my enthusiasm for this project as the price of diesel was going up and later coils of hose are not as stiff as the first batches were 10 - 12 years ago in the winter.
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I find it very interesting that your water was cold when it came out the exchanger. That tells us that all the energy was removed to the pole hose. My exchanger output is still toasty using the 9kw.
It was because of one of your other posts explaining the 5kw heat issue for 2 people that made me splash out on the Thermo 90 😂😂 I'm glad that this experiment helped you as well.
Did you ever try it without the thermostatic valve to see if you could get more temperate?
What about running the hot input on the coolant loop to first mix with the output side of the heat exchanger?
I had thermostatic valves on 2 of the heat exchangers as you can see. No I didn't remove them. I had the temperature set to max on the thermostatic valve and the temperature wasn't reaching it.
As I mentioned earlier, this experiment wasn't scientific. It was to give me a sense of direction. The water coming out of the heat exchanger felt cold. I may have been 10 or 12 degrees but I didn't actually measure it.
Over the years since then there are a lot more diesel heaters about. Users are saying the a 5.2 Webasto based unit isn't powerful enough to run a single operator system successfully. I proved that to myself and learnt a lot in the process. The 9.1 works better and due to its being more powerful and having different programming (3 stage heating) is more suited to window cleaning application IMHO.
The Thermo Top C is perfect for what it was designed for - as a diesel engine preheater for vehicles used in countries that experience extreme cold conditions.
I have plans to put this Webasto Thermo Top C into my Peugeot Boxer and use it as it was intended for, to preheat the engine and defrost the windscreen in winter. Will I ever get around to doing it? I don't know. The mind is willing but the body isn't anymore I'm afraid.
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Yeah feet would defo need changing on that pump. It it gives an idea that a recirculation pump can be inexpensive. Seen someone reviewing that pump and seems decent for the money. If you already have a spare pump makes sense to use that.
When mines running at 1.8kw there is very little heat out the exhaust compared to full power.
That's interesting. Could it have something to do with your fuel experiment?
So I presume more efficient at that range. Either way I’m waiting for delivery of an egr cooler off a ford which will get put Inline with the exhaust to preheat the water. For now I’m going to preheat the water on the second set up with it. As that is used by my helper and we’re running a gas boiler on his set up for now to use the remaining bottles of gas I have. The boiler has a temperature display on so will be interesting to see what temp it has coming into it when turning the switch on with no gas hooked up
Ford EGR cooler - interesting idea. :)
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Ill let you know my findings 😂😂
Using one like this ... (can’t upload photos) https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F253976118372
Going to cut the ends off and put 38mm tube on and fit it near the outlet of the exhaust. Like inline. Shouldn’t reduce the exhaust gas flow.
The outlets on those coolers are 28mm and didn’t want to reduce it down hence cutting off and putting full size tube on
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I was looking at these for a previous idea I had , looks like it would be easier to decoke with the open end
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-Valve-Cooler-For-FORD-TRANSIT-MK7-2006-2015-2-4-DIESEL-1674960-6C1Q-9F464-BD/283125766991?hash=item41eb9c5b4f:g:ZfAAAOSwXUdbg6af
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I was looking for a solution that meant no welding but looks like there isn’t anything available that is the right size. Conventiently I have w family member who can weld and has scrap metal tube lying around to.
I should be able to know if it’s worth it by new year. Or until the Patents come through 😂😂
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This one has main unit dimensions down the page a bit
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EGR-COOLER-FOR-FORD-TRANSIT-MK7-2-4-DIESEL-2006-2015-1674960-6C1Q-9F464-BD/232289560755?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D52945%26meid%3D72b51141bb07440ab6ef46a080887c55%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D283125766991%26itm%3D232289560755&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
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That is where I am lucky as I can weld !
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That is where I am lucky as I can weld !
Excellent skill to have. Which I would get and learn 😂
Went with the egr in like in the link Cus I thought it would be easier to hole saw and place 38mm OD tubing in than getting one I would neeed to make up some sort of reducer funnel. Will try it out when I get all the bits. But by time it’s ready will be over christmas and won’t be testing till back to work in the new year.
Honestly I think there isn’t a huge amount of heat in the exhaust that can be efficiently collected without causing a restriction in the exhaust. Interested these burners are rated to put out 9.1kw off 1.1l of diesel. 1.1l of diesel contains 10kw of energy. So either most of the diesel does work or the 9kw is laughable figure.
If it’s efficient the exhaust should be cooler than it was before fitting the erg exchanger
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I dont think that the exhaust gases that you get left with are actually that hot , it seems to be a build up of heat in the pipe itself , I saw a guy get what I think he called a FLIR and pointed the laser at the exhaust pipe and he was reading the max of his FLIR which went to 150*c
Maybe the better pre heating device would be 8 or 10 mm copper pipe wrapped around the exhaust !
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I dont think that the exhaust gases that you get left with are actually that hot , it seems to be a build up of heat in the pipe itself , I saw a guy get what I think he called a FLIR and pointed the laser at the exhaust pipe and he was reading the max of his FLIR which went to 150*c
Maybe the better pre heating device would be 8 or 10 mm copper pipe wrapped around the exhaust !
You will always get more heat from direct contact with the gasses than indirect off another surface. Also 150c is hot. I wouldn’t hold my hand at the exhaust of the burner when running full power 2 long. Remember the loop for the heat exchanger is under 90c.
There is defo the potential forheating water off the exhaust. Just to what extent I don’t know yet. But will find out. Along with build a frostat. Recirculation loop and at a second man set up off the heater for when we used up the Propane currently using for the second set up
Did you say your going to build a diesel heater set up or just thinking of it?
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Im thinking of all manner of nonsense at the moment , its just havin the balls to try it and come out on top .
What I really want is to find the type of heat exchanger that is in an Eccotemp L5 but half the size , so far they are either not out there or are hiding from me ;D
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Im thinking of all manner of nonsense at the moment , its just havin the balls to try it and come out on top .
What I really want is to find the type of heat exchanger that is in an Eccotemp L5 but half the size , so far they are either not out there or are hiding from me ;D
The L5 is very compact which you wont achieve with anything else. But what destroys gas heating is the size of the gas bottle and the safety aspect surrounding the carrying of gas. Yes you can get small gas bottles but swapping them out becomes a drama and becomes more expensive.
For me, I also don't agree with venting these heaters into the van and leaving a door open for the exhaust gasses to escape.
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I wonder if you’ve got a Chinese heater and using the hot air output to heat the water
I’ve just got myself another uk exchangers plate heat exchanger for £16 on eBay. Bargin.
Still waiting for parts myself to set up the frostat and idle circuit
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I wonder if you’ve got a Chinese heater and using the hot air output to heat the water
I’ve just got myself another uk exchangers plate heat exchanger for £16 on eBay. Bargin.
Still waiting for parts myself to set up the frostat and idle circuit
I don't think so tbh. The hot air that comes out of my Eberspacher Airtronic air heater isn't that hot. Its too hot to put your hand infront of the grill but then you have still got to have a second heat exchanger that has an internal pipe structure that will stand whatever pressure your pump runs at or is regulated to.
What ever happened to the Chinese copies of the Webasto Thermo Top C heaters? They came onto the market a couple of years ago and disappeared just as fast. A couple of the wfp diesel heaters suppliers did fit them. Using a cheaper heater cut costs and made them more margin on their sale.
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I did see a company called VKKB on youtube that had a similar thing but could not find a price for them
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It actually works by jiggery 😁(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547242664_D771717F-0244-45B7-9A7B-4E28F2EEEABE.png)
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That looks nice and safe. ;D
You getting good temps?
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In what way does it look unsafe other than no heat shield yet ?
With regard to temps I’m getting 30 at the brush with the average amount of hose off , this then rises as th day goes on , as the tank empties the return to tank water gives the heater a higher temp feed
These pics were first job at 10 then at 1.30
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547290258_1E37251C-B136-4215-8E18-4E4EF9495DBF.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547290227_BB210CFC-06B2-477F-9EDA-24AFA461EA5E.png)
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Very interesting. Nice one. So many questions come to mind😂
Is the tube exchanger lagged with insulation?
Do you run the water from the pump in the coolest side from the burner toward the hottest side?
Does the restriction effect the burners running?
Do you loose much heat through the original heatsink on the burner?
I would imagine that the burner alone set up like this could heat your van below freezing
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It actually works by jiggery 😁(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547242664_D771717F-0244-45B7-9A7B-4E28F2EEEABE.png)
good for you rich.......its gotta be safer than a gas shower heater,well done mate! :).....and it works! :D
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This is what is inside the chrome pipe!
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547301190_52AF55DF-8C4B-4C13-B230-C81BC0188C70.png)
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It is basically a chinese air heater with a breakfast bar leg on it , inside the one I am using is 2.5m of 10mm copper pipe , the above pic is 5m , but it was to wide to go in the tube , so with a better sourced bit of tube later on the 5m will go in giving me more heat again .
The flow is probably better than before I cut the original heat sink body off , it appears to run as it was intended , but it does get quite warm in the van if shut up , even with the fan on the burner going !
Might have to have a rethink for summertime , but then I dont suppose I will need to run it then will I .
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Cheers Daz , I told you I would do it ;D
And all for about 200/250 and a bit of tinker time ;D , still it gave me summat to do while CIU was down !
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Did you use a 2kw or 5kw heater?
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Did you use a 2kw or 5kw heater?
It was the 5kw , but if you are thinking of doing similar just remember that fab and welding is involved that has to be air tight or the van will fill with the exhaust gases which you dont really want !
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Thanks.
Have you also run the exhaust through the ‘heat exhanger’?
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Thanks.
Have you also run the exhaust through the ‘heat exhanger’?
I think it’s the exhaust that’s heating the coil ?????
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It is just one big exhaust really , all i have done is done away with the big lump of finned alloy that made it an air heater and channeled all the heat through the tube with a copper coil in it , this then was mated to the original exhaust and exited through the floor .
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It is just one big exhaust really , all i have done is done away with the big lump of finned alloy that made it an air heater and channeled all the heat through the tube with a copper coil in it , this then was mated to the original exhaust and exited through the floor .
No issues with errors or codes with the heater? I think a webasto would have a fit if you took a saw to it.
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It is just one big exhaust really , all i have done is done away with the big lump of finned alloy that made it an air heater and channeled all the heat through the tube with a copper coil in it , this then was mated to the original exhaust and exited through the floor .
No issues with errors or codes with the heater? I think a webasto would have a fit if you took a saw to it.
I had my fair share of error codes , E10 mainly , but there was no fuel issue as I could see it pumping fine , it was down to the positioning of the heat sensor , it was just a case of remounting it in a place that gave the temp it wanted to see , if it was in the wrong place then the fuel pump would shut down and the unit would go into cool down mode , once i found the position all was well .
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What is a pity though is I cannot fit the original case as yet as the fan cools it so well that it prevents the unit from cutting power to the glow plug which in turn stops it from firing up also , I will get around it by means of some type of draught preventer , but for now it works fine so it can be looked at later .
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Do you really need the fins on the main unit tho? Might help you get more heat transferee to the water if it’s not lost as an air heater as it’s designed
I’m quite impressed. You’ve been thinking outside the box
Also thought could you have an internal baffle rod that forces the hot air over the coil rather than down the middle off the tube and coil?
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Do you really need the fins on the main unit tho? Might help you get more heat transferee to the water if it’s not lost as an air heater as it’s designed
I’m quite impressed. You’ve been thinking outside the box
Also thought could you have an internal baffle rod that forces the hot air over the coil rather than down the middle off the tube and coil?
To be honest I think that removing any more of the fins would be asking for trouble , the unit might get too hot then , I have already had errors due to it being too cold to jump to full heat mode , also the motor and PCB are sat right in front of the fan and I dont want a meltdown due to overheating .
The baffle is something to look at but to be honest there is way more heat to be had yet with a few tweeks to the main tube , one is upping the size of the tube to accomodate that 5m coil i have .
As i have it now with the 2.5m coil which is hard up against the sides of the chrome tube I am losing heat that way , I reckon if I can get the 5m into a wider tube that it does not touch the sides I will be home and dry , I predict that with this I can take 15 feed water to 40 on its first pass , this will then get hotter as the day goes on as every time I shut the univalve off that 40 water will dump straight back into the tank .
But what I am most pleased about with the whole thing is that 1. It only uses 400ml per hour and , 2. This is all powered by my single 85 amp MF Numax , I have been averaging 6 hours of constant running of the heater , pump , and starting the van , all without the need to charge the battery at night , mind you this is my starter battery so it gets the alternator charge and help from 120W MPPT solar setup .
But if you are wondering what the power draw is of the pump and heater then my pump draws 3 amps per hour and the heater takes max of 5 amps per hour , apart from initial fire up when it pulls 10 amps for 3 minutes until the glow plug shuts down .
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I wonder if you’ve got a Chinese heater and using the hot air output to heat the water
I’ve just got myself another uk exchangers plate heat exchanger for £16 on eBay. Bargin.
Still waiting for parts myself to set up the frostat and idle circuit
Just read back through the thread and saw that you had me sussed out early on ;D ;D ;D
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I wonder if you’ve got a Chinese heater and using the hot air output to heat the water
I’ve just got myself another uk exchangers plate heat exchanger for £16 on eBay. Bargin.
Still waiting for parts myself to set up the frostat and idle circuit
Just read back through the thread and saw that you had me sussed out early on ;D ;D ;D
Haha. Only because it was an idea I already had in some degree. I was thinking off leaving it all intact and blowing the output over a air to water heat exchanger. Couldn’t think how I would implement it without welding skills
That reminds me. I’ve set up my frostat and idle circuit. Both work well.
Altho my heater has stopped working because the burn chamber is all clogged up. Pretty sure it’s my own fault for using way to much waste oil to start it up cold. I think if it started fine it would soon burn off the carbon but a couple of failed starts and it would not be able to get hot enough to clear the carbon therefore creating more carbon and snowballing.
It was late when I took it apart and I took the mesh out from the burn chamber not thinking it should stay in there and destroyed it. Waiting for a new one from AliExpress.
Haha. So just thought I would make a YouTube vid of it since I can’t upload photos to cleanitup. The video quality is laughable but hey ho 😂😂
https://youtu.be/Fwo-epOGYCo
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Glad the frost stat bit worked for you matey , I dont think I really need to go that far , Im way down in the SW so we dont see the kind of temps that Ooop North sees , couple of quilts do the job , saying that though my heater has a 7 day program timer so i could just use that to come on once during the night !
With regard to spares for me , I looked into getting spare fuel pump and motor and PCB , but at £135 for the whole heater I will just order another one giving me 2 of everything ;D ;D
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some of you are wasted as window cleaners.......well done for experimenting.....thats how new innovations are created/found... :)
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Glad the frost stat bit worked for you matey , I dont think I really need to go that far , Im way down in the SW so we dont see the kind of temps that Ooop North sees , couple of quilts do the job , saying that though my heater has a 7 day program timer so i could just use that to come on once during the night !
With regard to spares for me , I looked into getting spare fuel pump and motor and PCB , but at £135 for the whole heater I will just order another one giving me 2 of everything ;D ;D
How difficult would it be to fabricate a heat exchanger from welded ss to replace the copper pipe?
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Glad the frost stat bit worked for you matey , I dont think I really need to go that far , Im way down in the SW so we dont see the kind of temps that Ooop North sees , couple of quilts do the job , saying that though my heater has a 7 day program timer so i could just use that to come on once during the night !
With regard to spares for me , I looked into getting spare fuel pump and motor and PCB , but at £135 for the whole heater I will just order another one giving me 2 of everything ;D ;D
Can’t argue with that. How are you recirculating the water back to the tank when not using the pole? What temp are you aiming for at the brush?
Personally getting 65c out the heater is perfect max temp for me. Makes conservatory roof or facia cleans easier
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some of you are wasted as window cleaners.......well done for experimenting.....thats how new innovations are created/found... :)
Nice change from the why are you bothering lot that don’t get it😂
‘Wasted as window cleaners’ raises an interesting question why did we choose window cleaning. Personally it’s the best way I know to earn money legally in the shortest amount of time. That fits around my other life’s priorities. Defo not because I enjoy cleaning windows 😂
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How difficult would it be to fabricate a heat exchanger from welded ss to replace the copper pipe?
[/quote]
If you mean to make it the same as I have but in SS then it could be very costly , I made my own coils with copper as a look on Ebay scared the life out of me !
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Glad the frost stat bit worked for you matey , I dont think I really need to go that far , Im way down in the SW so we dont see the kind of temps that Ooop North sees , couple of quilts do the job , saying that though my heater has a 7 day program timer so i could just use that to come on once during the night !
With regard to spares for me , I looked into getting spare fuel pump and motor and PCB , but at £135 for the whole heater I will just order another one giving me 2 of everything ;D ;D
Can’t argue with that. How are you recirculating the water back to the tank when not using the pole? What temp are you aiming for at the brush?
Personally getting 65c out the heater is perfect max temp for me. Makes conservatory roof or facia cleans easier
I’m using a 3 bar pressure relief valve from plum base £10 ,
I would like to get 40 at the brush head , that’s enough for me , I worked out today that I was losing 10 degrees with having all the hose out , so if I can get say 55 after heater I will be sorted .
I got there today but only when I was on the last job with only 50 litre left in the tank !
My plan is to change my 350 for two 175 ‘s , that way my recirc time will get there twice as fast , one tank can feed into the other very slowly
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547493713_0F3DC9E0-CB0A-429D-BB36-F7CBE9DFD306.png)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547493845_D3CEA4FE-4190-4287-8C40-B938E7486D09.png)
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What about a small say 25l holding tank that is fed slowly (speed difference would effect water temperature) from the main tank through the heater. Which I turn you draw off for the pump and water outlet to the reel.
You could have a high overflow level that feeds back into your main tank.
This was my original idea with using the same heater you have used. But I thought I would use a commercial exchanger to take the hot air blow out the heater. Along with the header tank idea
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Fantastic, that is a brilliant effort.
are you going to list/show all the parts and how to put it together ??
I think thats worth having a crack at making
Darran
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Fantastic, that is a brilliant effort.
are you going to list/show all the parts and how to put it together ??
I think thats worth having a crack at making
Darran
If it were as simple as that Smudge I would have kept hush and had them properly fabricated to sell myself !
The trouble is that they are Chinese import and there are a lot of different variations of them , they all seem to be differently configured , different Kw , different suppliers , the list goes on !
I just ordered one and went with what I had to work with , a lot of these orders either dont turn up or are delivered with bits missing , I did my homework and used a supplier that had delivered 4 to one chap on different occasions that were all present and correct .
Also a lot of tinkering is required , I have the patience , lots dont , and I dont want to turn into that Tw*t that cost me £135 !
I can give a rough guide of what needs to be done to what , but bits to fit and sizes will all differ , thats what makes it so hard .
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Fantastic, that is a brilliant effort.
are you going to list/show all the parts and how to put it together ??
I think thats worth having a crack at making
Darran
If it were as simple as that Smudge I would have kept hush and had them properly fabricated to sell myself !
The trouble is that they are Chinese import and there are a lot of different variations of them , they all seem to be differently configured , different Kw , different suppliers , the list goes on !
I just ordered one and went with what I had to work with , a lot of these orders either dont turn up or are delivered with bits missing , I did my homework and used a supplier that had delivered 4 to one chap on different occasions that were all present and correct .
Also a lot of tinkering is required , I have the patience , lots dont , and I dont want to turn into that Tw*t that cost me £135 !
I can give a rough guide of what needs to be done to what , but bits to fit and sizes will all differ , thats what makes it so hard .
My understanding from multiple YouTube vids is they are all the same unit. Either badged 2kw or 5kw.
Does your exchanger feel hot to the touch? I presume so. I’m sure you could get more heat in the coils by reducing radiant heat loss
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Mate , I could fry breakfast on that chrome tube I tell ya ;D
Thats what I mean when I say lots more is to be had from it !
Its like I have harnessed 100% of the heat at source without the need for seconday circuits , extra pumps , multiple batteries , it really is an open book that you tailor to your own needs !
Which reminds me , before I modify any more , what I should do is get some exhaust heat wrap and strap that chrome tube up so nothing or as close to gets out , you can see where the chrome has discoloured , this is where the magic happens , if heat wrap extends that colour further down the tube then we are on to a winner with this !
Good shout that man !!!!
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So if I u derstand it correctly - you have built a tube and bolted it onto the end of the heater where it normally blows out hot air then inside that you have a coil where your water passes through going to your reel
Darran
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So if I u derstand it correctly - you have built a tube and bolted it onto the end of the heater where it normally blows out hot air then inside that you have a coil where your water passes through going to your reel
Darran
Yes pretty much, but first you have to cut this big lump of aluminium off.
If you look at the two pictures you can marry them up , this has to be done as the burner tube is inside , I will link a video in a minute that will give you a greater understanding of what I have done.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547575795_DC5D9E0A-E8C8-47F1-8D3A-AEA2D97F8503.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547575794_32890305-25F7-48CA-A3C0-C85C91544316.png)
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This is the video that gave me the idea , bare with it as it does give good insight to how it all comes apart and how it works .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5IKRB_NbGg
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So if I u derstand it correctly - you have built a tube and bolted it onto the end of the heater where it normally blows out hot air then inside that you have a coil where your water passes through going to your reel
Darran
Yes pretty much, but first you have to cut this big lump of aluminium off.
If you look at the two pictures you can marry them up , this has to be done as the burner tube is inside , I will link a video in a minute that will give you a greater understanding of what I have done.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547575795_DC5D9E0A-E8C8-47F1-8D3A-AEA2D97F8503.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547575794_32890305-25F7-48CA-A3C0-C85C91544316.png)
Why did you cut it at that angle, was there a sensor you were trying to save?
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Mate , I could fry breakfast on that chrome tube I tell ya ;D
Thats what I mean when I say lots more is to be had from it !
Its like I have harnessed 100% of the heat at source without the need for seconday circuits , extra pumps , multiple batteries , it really is an open book that you tailor to your own needs !
Which reminds me , before I modify any more , what I should do is get some exhaust heat wrap and strap that chrome tube up so nothing or as close to gets out , you can see where the chrome has discoloured , this is where the magic happens , if heat wrap extends that colour further down the tube then we are on to a winner with this !
Good shout that man !!!!
Is there an existing product similar to what you have but double skinned so you could leave the coiled copper pipe out. None of the heat would be lost to the atmosphere that way. I've no engineering background so have no idea if such a thing exists though.
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So if I u derstand it correctly - you have built a tube and bolted it onto the end of the heater where it normally blows out hot air then inside that you have a coil where your water passes through going to your reel
Darran
Yes pretty much, but first you have to cut this big lump of aluminium off.
If you look at the two pictures you can marry them up , this has to be done as the burner tube is inside , I will link a video in a minute that will give you a greater understanding of what I have done.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547575795_DC5D9E0A-E8C8-47F1-8D3A-AEA2D97F8503.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1547575794_32890305-25F7-48CA-A3C0-C85C91544316.png)
Why did you cut it at that angle, was there a sensor you were trying to save?
No I just didnt want to go too mad with the plasma disc !
When I get my next one I will just cut straight down from the cut in the picture that is in line with the start of the chrome tube , more of the burner tube will still be encased that way , less heat to atmosphere .
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How is it being sealed? 🤔
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Mate , I could fry breakfast on that chrome tube I tell ya ;D
Thats what I mean when I say lots more is to be had from it !
Its like I have harnessed 100% of the heat at source without the need for seconday circuits , extra pumps , multiple batteries , it really is an open book that you tailor to your own needs !
Which reminds me , before I modify any more , what I should do is get some exhaust heat wrap and strap that chrome tube up so nothing or as close to gets out , you can see where the chrome has discoloured , this is where the magic happens , if heat wrap extends that colour further down the tube then we are on to a winner with this !
Good shout that man !!!!
Is there an existing product similar to what you have but double skinned so you could leave the coiled copper pipe out. None of the heat would be lost to the atmosphere that way. I've no engineering background so have no idea if such a thing exists though.
Not a clue , I did look at a Transit MK 7 EGR cooler that could be made to fit but I think they are mild steel so would only be of use if used as a secondary ciruit to heat water with the pink additive in and used in the same manner as a Grippa system with a plate exchanger , but that would mean extra pump and controller and also probably more batteries .
Im trying to make it the most cheap , light and efficient way to get hot water , in my eyes I have done cheap , and light already , I just have to get a bit more heat which is only round the corner as I see it !
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How is it being sealed? 🤔
How is what being sealed ?
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How is it being sealed? 🤔
How is what being sealed ?
Your burn chamber to your heat exchanger tube. How is that joint being sealed
I can confirm the transit egr is stainless steel but it’s also much smaller than you have got
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I have to hand it to you
you've worked wonders on this - nice bit of innovation
Darran
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How is it being sealed? 🤔
How is what being sealed ?
Your burn chamber to your heat exchanger tube. How is that joint being sealed
I can confirm the transit egr is stainless steel but it’s also much smaller than you have got
Yes i think 22cm overall , my main concern with it was internal liquid to gas ratio and wether enough gases could pass though unrestricted,
The tube is clamped but the burner tube has been built up with collars made from the offcuts of the chrome tube , each one has been smothered with fire gum before the next one has been added , all nicely sandwiched and fume free so far , the good thing with the fire gum is that it dries pure white , if any gases are escaping it shows right away by leaving soot deposits , very easy to see .
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I have to hand it to you
you've worked wonders on this - nice bit of innovation
Darran
Thanks Darran , I have thought of a way of making the unit more compact and more of a plug and play kind of thing , I would also have the exchangers fabricated by a time served welding shop , I can weld but not to the standard that I would use on an of the shelf product .
An interested person would just have to purchase the unit themselves , make sure it works as an air heater and then either cut off the heat exchanger on the device themselves or have somebody do it for them , then just bolt what I supply on .
Cutting the original exchanger off is the easy bit by the way !
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I have to hand it to you
you've worked wonders on this - nice bit of innovation
Darran
Thanks Darran , I have thought of a way of making the unit more compact and more of a plug and play kind of thing , I would also have the exchangers fabricated by a time served welding shop , I can weld but not to the standard that I would use on an of the shelf product .
An interested person would just have to purchase the unit themselves , make sure it works as an air heater and then either cut off the heat exchanger on the device themselves or have somebody do it for them , then just bolt what I supply on .
Cutting the original exchanger off is the easy bit by the way !
I'm impressed. I'm just wondering though how you would deal with carbon buildup in your fabricated heat exchanger. Carbon buildup is a gradual thing.
On a side note, my Eberspacher airtronic failed to start this morning for the first time since I installed it second hand 10 years ago. It was the fuse holder full of crud. Cleaned it out and replaced the fuse - all working now; thankfully before the big freeze forecast sets in.
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I have to hand it to you
you've worked wonders on this - nice bit of innovation
Darran
Thanks Darran , I have thought of a way of making the unit more compact and more of a plug and play kind of thing , I would also have the exchangers fabricated by a time served welding shop , I can weld but not to the standard that I would use on an of the shelf product .
An interested person would just have to purchase the unit themselves , make sure it works as an air heater and then either cut off the heat exchanger on the device themselves or have somebody do it for them , then just bolt what I supply on .
Cutting the original exchanger off is the easy bit by the way !
I'm impressed. I'm just wondering though how you would deal with carbon buildup in your fabricated heat exchanger. Carbon buildup is a gradual thing.
On a side note, my Eberspacher airtronic failed to start this morning for the first time since I installed it second hand 10 years ago. It was the fuse holder full of crud. Cleaned it out and replaced the fuse - all working now; thankfully before the big freeze forecast sets in.
Cheers Spruce , I still think that the best buy here has been the Numax MF by far ;D ;D ;D
I still cant believe Im running all this with 85 amp and am still getting home with a battery on float !
I have had the unit apart a few times since fitted 2 weeks ago and there is no sign of any kind of deposits so far , probably down to the fact that it is running flat out constantly .
Im thinking that the next thing I shall do is to get a piece of the same size tube as the burner tube and swage it so it connects like a normal exhaust , then swap out the 10 mm copper for 8mm , this should give me tighter coilability , I will have the exhuast in the same place but have the water in /out at the end of the tube , the end of the tube will be flange plated and another flange plate with no hole except for the in and out water pipes , the coil can compression fit to this giving me the ability to slide the whole coil out should it need decoking at any point .
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Haha. Is it just me but that last post wasn’t going in. Think I need pictures 😂😂
You running a split charge on your battery?
I’ve noticed with my webasto 90 that the stop start is what drains the battery. Good thing about your set up is running it flat out all the time is never over the top. The webasto 90 doesn’t need to run full wack all the time. But it should when I fit my second man heat exchanger
I’m intrigued how you have set it up with a pressure relief valve. Giving me ideas. .
How do you get on with running it full wack regarding noise all day? Mine is much louder on first start up when it’s running 9.1kw. Moderate under normal use. Then faint under idle conditions.
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No split charge .........How it basically happened , a year ago this very day as it happens , my van battery let me down and my leisure battery was beginning to do the same , Spruce dropped into conversation that Numax did this multifunction battery , I decided to get the Numax and fit it as the van battery and run my system off it aswell , being as I was toying with solar charging at the time I thought it might be a good idea to link it all and see what happened .
The result has been that the battery has not been out of the van to charge for a year today !
And now it also runs the diesel heater too , Im doing 6 hours every day with the pump and heater constantly going and running the vans needs too , plus I am getting home fully charged .
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No split charge .........How it basically happened , a year ago this very day as it happens , my van battery let me down and my leisure battery was beginning to do the same , Spruce dropped into conversation that Numax did this multifunction battery , I decided to get the Numax and fit it as the van battery and run my system off it aswell , being as I was toying with solar charging at the time I thought it might be a good idea to link it all and see what happened .
The result has been that the battery has not been out of the van to charge for a year today !
And now it also runs the diesel heater too , Im doing 6 hours every day with the pump and heater constantly going and running the vans needs too , plus I am getting home fully charged .
Sounds almost too good to be true!it'll be interesting to see how long the heater lasts using it day in/day out......and temperature at the brush head....
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The pressure relief valve has been placed after the heater and before the hose reel , when the Univalve is shut the pressure hops to about 50 psi and the PRV opens up sending the hot water into the tank .
If you look back at the photo of the PRV , it has an in and an out , the in I have T'd off , right from heater , left to hose reel , at the back of the PRV is the out , this goes to the tank .
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No split charge .........How it basically happened , a year ago this very day as it happens , my van battery let me down and my leisure battery was beginning to do the same , Spruce dropped into conversation that Numax did this multifunction battery , I decided to get the Numax and fit it as the van battery and run my system off it aswell , being as I was toying with solar charging at the time I thought it might be a good idea to link it all and see what happened .
The result has been that the battery has not been out of the van to charge for a year today !
And now it also runs the diesel heater too , Im doing 6 hours every day with the pump and heater constantly going and running the vans needs too , plus I am getting home fully charged .
Sounds almost too good to be true!it'll be interesting to see how long the heater lasts using it day in/day out......and temperature at the brush head....
Yeah , i'm pretty interested in that one too Daz ;D
To be honest mate , if I have to replace it yearly even I wont be dissapointed , £135 , whats that £10 a month for a brand new heater every year , I bet you couldnt even get a glow plug for that ;D ;D ;D
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I take my hat off to you rich...well done....I'm not naturally a "tinkerer" like you..... :)
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The pressure relief valve has been placed after the heater and before the hose reel , when the Univalve is shut the pressure hops to about 50 psi and the PRV opens up sending the hot water into the tank .
If you look back at the photo of the PRV , it has an in and an out , the in I have T'd off , right from heater , left to hose reel , at the back of the PRV is the out , this goes to the tank .
It’s got me thinking about my second reel set up. I could use prv into a small say 25l holding container on the tank with an overflow so when it’s full it gravity feeds back into the main tank and draw off the little tank for the second reel. When I got my mate with me I do all the Faffy stuff. Chatting to customers and slips so would give the tank time to fill up.
Just wonder how the pump would get on with 65c water. And if the holding tank would run out on commercial work or facia and con roof work
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No split charge .........How it basically happened , a year ago this very day as it happens , my van battery let me down and my leisure battery was beginning to do the same , Spruce dropped into conversation that Numax did this multifunction battery , I decided to get the Numax and fit it as the van battery and run my system off it aswell , being as I was toying with solar charging at the time I thought it might be a good idea to link it all and see what happened .
The result has been that the battery has not been out of the van to charge for a year today !
And now it also runs the diesel heater too , Im doing 6 hours every day with the pump and heater constantly going and running the vans needs too , plus I am getting home fully charged .
Got ya so your alternator is doing most of the charging work. Highly recommend Numax batteries. Used them in the past. And it makes a change there HQ is local to me so easy to get them. But I build the Lithium battery now so don’t use lead acid anymore.
Should sell the numax really
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When I was bench testing my build I was using a Gardiner backpack as the reservoir/pump , I let it go to see what temp I could get the water in it to , after 30 mins I got 20L from 12 up to 63 , I had to give up as I was sticking my arm in to swill the water about for an accurate reading but it started to burn my hand ;D
But the backpack handled it very well , better than my hand anyway ;D ;D
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No split charge .........How it basically happened , a year ago this very day as it happens , my van battery let me down and my leisure battery was beginning to do the same , Spruce dropped into conversation that Numax did this multifunction battery , I decided to get the Numax and fit it as the van battery and run my system off it aswell , being as I was toying with solar charging at the time I thought it might be a good idea to link it all and see what happened .
The result has been that the battery has not been out of the van to charge for a year today !
And now it also runs the diesel heater too , Im doing 6 hours every day with the pump and heater constantly going and running the vans needs too , plus I am getting home fully charged .
Got ya so your alternator is doing most of the charging work. Highly recommend Numax batteries. Used them in the past. And it makes a change there HQ is local to me so easy to get them. But I build the Lithium battery now so don’t use lead acid anymore.
Should sell the numax really
This pricked my ears up. It would be an interesting subject to discuss further, especially lithium, freezing van temps and charging of them A900. The cost of a normal lithium battery is far to much for us to consider seriously atm imho.
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I have to hand it to you
you've worked wonders on this - nice bit of innovation
Darran
Thanks Darran , I have thought of a way of making the unit more compact and more of a plug and play kind of thing , I would also have the exchangers fabricated by a time served welding shop , I can weld but not to the standard that I would use on an of the shelf product .
An interested person would just have to purchase the unit themselves , make sure it works as an air heater and then either cut off the heat exchanger on the device themselves or have somebody do it for them , then just bolt what I supply on .
Cutting the original exchanger off is the easy bit by the way !
I'm impressed. I'm just wondering though how you would deal with carbon buildup in your fabricated heat exchanger. Carbon buildup is a gradual thing.
On a side note, my Eberspacher airtronic failed to start this morning for the first time since I installed it second hand 10 years ago. It was the fuse holder full of crud. Cleaned it out and replaced the fuse - all working now; thankfully before the big freeze forecast sets in.
Cheers Spruce , I still think that the best buy here has been the Numax MF by far ;D ;D ;D
I still cant believe Im running all this with 85 amp and am still getting home with a battery on float !
I have had the unit apart a few times since fitted 2 weeks ago and there is no sign of any kind of deposits so far , probably down to the fact that it is running flat out constantly .
Im thinking that the next thing I shall do is to get a piece of the same size tube as the burner tube and swage it so it connects like a normal exhaust , then swap out the 10 mm copper for 8mm , this should give me tighter coilability , I will have the exhuast in the same place but have the water in /out at the end of the tube , the end of the tube will be flange plated and another flange plate with no hole except for the in and out water pipes , the coil can compression fit to this giving me the ability to slide the whole coil out should it need decoking at any point .
Many years ago we had the agency for Nu-Way oil burners in Africa. We didn't need central heating over there so they were mainly used in industry. What you have done is turn your heater into an oil burner.
My Bosch counter part in Germany had an oil burner for hot water and central heating as do a lot of Americans. I've never looked at the heat exchangers they use in these oil burners systems but it could be worth a noisy for some ideas although you aren't short of a few yourself. Steve Jones has some competition. ;D
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First mishap yesterday, fired the heater up and went to put the kettle on,then realised I had not switched the pump on!
When I got to the van it was like a steam room, I had super heated the coil and blown the pipe work 🤪
Still no real damage and have spent the day up rating the bad boy and looking at a way to get the cover on
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First mishap yesterday, fired the heater up and went to put the kettle on,then realised I had not switched the pump on!
When I got to the van it was like a steam room, I had super heated the coil and blown the pipe work 🤪
Still no real damage and have spent the day up rating the bad boy and looking at a way to get the cover on
I wonder if for safety you could add a thermal cut out. Maybe using an audrino.
Ive been consindering an audrino for data collection and more importantly. To run a time delay so my heater starts on diesel or kerosene and switches after 30second to a waste mix
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I think the best ways to deal with it are either to wire the pump into the switch on the heater or to put a sign saying PUMP next to the heater switch , that would probably be better as the first way would stop me using th system as a cold one .
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I have found one downside to having the heater though ,I’m doing more than I used to , not so much because it cleans “Faster/Better” 😆🤣🤣
But because I am more comfortable for longer.
I went to fill my almost empty tank on Wednesday and I only had 100L left in the IBC, so I had to go get me a larger RO !
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My grippatank heater is wired into the liquid logic controller so every time I turn the controller on the heater kicks into life but I can turn the heater off on the controller so only the pump comes on if I want to use cold water(I never do though).....
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Well done!
It’s really impressive what you’ve managed to do.
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Well done!
It’s really impressive what you’ve managed to do.
Thanks Jonny , although my little mishap has done my head right in , I have managed to get the temps higher but at the cost of a slight drip within the chrome pipe , and the only way to get at it is to do a full strip down which I am a bit against as it was a right bar steward to get it together !
If the burner is going the heat dries the water out , but if it isnt then the drip will be a leak , and I dont do leaks !!
Im just gonna hope it lasts until I get Mk 2 sorted , much friendlier design ;D
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What’s the drip from?
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What’s the drip from?
Its from a 90 degree compression joint within the chrome pipe , the only way to get to it to nip it up is to strip the whole thing and remove the coil , its not leaking enough to warrant that just yet , and as Mk 2 is on the way I will just soldier on !
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What’s the drip from?
Its from a 90 degree compression joint within the chrome pipe , the only way to get to it to nip it up is to strip the whole thing and remove the coil , its not leaking enough to warrant that just yet , and as Mk 2 is on the way I will just soldier on !
It’s all a big experiment. Can’t expect any of this to work perfect first try. What sort of temperatures you been able to get now?
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From fire up can get 30 at the brush head with the usual hose out , but with the mod I did over the weekend things didnt really improve that much , I wrapped the 5m coil around the chrome pipe in a bid to pre heat the water before it hit the internal coil , but at the time it was not insulated , I have foil wrapped and ally taped it up now so we will see what tha moro brings !
I do think that the most I will gain is to up the size of the internal coil , I only have 2.5m in there at the mo , I can get up to about 4m I reckon , if coiled better than this one , what I have now is just a mix of older parts all slung together , better results are a commin matey !
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Looks like I have hit the peak with the coils that I have!
Same ball park figures that I had the other day but that day ambient was 12 today it was 8
The picture is temp from heater and I was getting 40 at the brush head .
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1548095652_2AA6508E-9F27-442F-8C2E-CE468D7926CC.png)
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That is impressive. What sort of input temperature Do you have to get that temp?
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That is impressive. What sort of input temperature Do you have to get that temp?
That is the problem , I was meant to be taking the tank temp after the picture , however , a custie came out and wanted to pay me !
I forgot to do it after that , but lets not forget that that temp was not on demand as such , it was using pre heated water from the return to tank setup , I only had about 75L left and it was after around 5 hours into the day , so its not all as it would seem , as it stands though , I know that whatever the feed temp is I am able to rise it by an average of 15 degrees .
These are results from when I did the backpack test I mentioned a few posts ago , input and output temps
15>34
26>43
31>46
34>48
40>53
45>58
50>62
Once I have got Mk 2 built with its 30% bigger coil I should have much better results , not that they are by any means poor so far , but the next and probably final step will be to swap out the 350 tank for two 175's.
This will massively boost my ability to have higher temp feed water much sooner , I will just decant from cold into hot as I need to .
If I can hover the feed tank at 40 then raise it to 53 after heater I should end up with at least 40 at the brush head , I would be more than happy with that !
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What sort of temperature are you getting out of the exhaust? I’m Wondering if your stripping out most of the heat from the burner or if there is much left.
I wonder whether removing some of the aluminium air heat exchanger material off the burner or the external fan might encourage more heat down the tube (therefore giving high temp potentials) or whether it’s not getting super hot because the exhaust gasses are not being baffled around the inside of the air to air heatsink.
Are you feeding the cold water into the end nearest the exhaust or the burner end? For most heat transfer it needs to be exhaust end to progressively heat the water upto the hottest end.
After cleaning my webasto burner and replacing the steel mesh it starts up with very little smoke. I’m still running some waste oil and heating the fuel mix with copper tube wrapped around the hot water outlet (22mm copper pipe) with a thermal compound to exchange the heat. Hoping this will help the oil and diesel (soon to be kerosene mix) to cleanly burn for a long time without maintenance.
I’m impressed with how you’ve been able to adapt these Chinese air heaters for our usage. It’s funny I brainstormed how I could make the Chinese airheater work for me long before you revealed what youve done. I just don’t think I have the fabrication skills and thought I would end up spending more on specify heat exchangers.
Having seen what you’ve achieved I think for me I would like to be able to have 60-65 straight off to help me with conservatory roofs or facias and I’m not sure the Chinese air heater could output that sort of temp easily.
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They do an 8Kw version too , maybe I will look into that , but for now Im going to push this 5Kw to the limit to see what it can do !
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They do an 8Kw version too , maybe I will look into that , but for now Im going to push this 5Kw to the limit to see what it can do !
Well that was a comprehensive answer 😂😂😂😂😂
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This bloke is literally doing what I’m in the middle of putting together.
The webasto 90 exhaust size is larger so not able to find a bolt on EGR cooler but working on the one I’ve got.
Found out after planning to get my 77 year old grandad weld it together for me that it’s stainless steel. He doesn’t have a TIG to weld stainless steel. So the best option I could think off was to weld a bracket to hold the 2 adapters in place and job weld the seam to make it air tight. My grandad doesn’t weld so often now and his MIG wasn’t working right. So he Arc welded but it was a bit powerful and blew through hence not so neat. But should do the job.
Unsure if to preheat and feed the water pumps with the heated water from the EGR cooler. (Could get 2 hot if water doesn’t flow to the pumps for a while)
Or recirculated through the EGR and back to the tank. (More complicated as will require another little pump)
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My little addition which was the outer coil to pre heat the water did not do much in the grand scheme of things !
I think if you have the juice then you would be better off with EGR feeding back to tank , or a smaller tank with overflow as you mentioned before , the trouble with going back to main large tank is that if its too big then the gains dont benefit you until very late in the day .
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As it was sit at home weather today I decided to start Mk 2 , totally nailed it!
It’s all fabricated from scratch and ready for a few small welds to be done .
I’m going to be able to get about 26 coils in this one , the last one only had 13 as it was a rush job !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1548533744_77AF6B3A-E80A-4AA7-BD0D-798CF86CD43C.png)
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Mate get as many photos up as you can. Like the way you’ve got it working
I thought about adding the EGR cooler into the heater coolant loop so out the heat exchanger into the EGR cooler then back to the reservoir. While a much simpler aproach, I wouldn’t draw as much heat out of the exhaust because the water will already be 60-80c.
As you say recirculating back to the tank looks like the way to go. I think I’m going to add a tee to the tank outlet to draw water off run a small pump to pump through the EGR cooler and feed it back to the tank. Either by running the return hose all the way internally down to empty the hot water near the outlet of the tank or t it back into the tank outlet.
Either way it means the pumps should be drawing warmer water than without the EGR cooler and if not the tank will get hotter anyway from the recirculated water
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Yes , with doing it as we are, we are tailoring it to our own needs , what works for me may not work for another bloke due to his tank size and work type , I am stop start which means a fair bit of recirc is going on , Fred Bloggs who parks up and does a massive building a day can only hope for on demand temps , with what I am running now that means about 30 at the brush head all day for Fred , where as I cant jump to 50 or so !
I am hoping that coil numbers is a key factor here too , at the mo I have 13 and am getting a 15 degree rise , with any luck having 26 could give me a 25 degree rise above my ambient tank temp , who knows ?
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Yes , with doing it as we are, we are tailoring it to our own needs , what works for me may not work for another bloke due to his tank size and work type , I am stop start which means a fair bit of recirc is going on , Fred Bloggs who parks up and does a massive building a day can only hope for on demand temps , with what I am running now that means about 30 at the brush head all day for Fred , where as I cant jump to 50 or so !
I am hoping that coil numbers is a key factor here too , at the mo I have 13 and am getting a 15 degree rise , with any luck having 26 could give me a 25 degree rise above my ambient tank temp , who knows ?
What size tubing you using again?
I recon you could get the most energy out with an old condensing boiler. They are designed to transfer as much heat as possible into the water.
Out of interest. How hot is the exhaust outlet from the burner after it’s been over the coils? If it’s hot I’m guessing there is till lots of energy to be had
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The chrome tube is 60mm and the copper tube inside is 10mm .
Got a pic of one of these condensing boiler jobbies ?
Still very hot , dont know for sure but much more can be done yet .
Mk 2 chrome tube is only 55cm , same as Mk1 , if I was to mount the other way in the van I could up the chrome to 1m at least !
Be looking at 50 coils then ;D
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You do know that hot water freezes more quickly than cold?
Even in summer.
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You do know that hot water freezes more quickly than cold?
Even in summer.
https://youtu.be/UjIdzcxSe3g
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The chrome tube is 60mm and the copper tube inside is 10mm .
Got a pic of one of these condensing boiler jobbies ?
Still very hot , dont know for sure but much more can be done yet .
Mk 2 chrome tube is only 55cm , same as Mk1 , if I was to mount the other way in the van I could up the chrome to 1m at least !
Be looking at 50 coils then ;D
I don’t have a pic but a video. You can also pick them up for like 99p eBay auctions or This one £30.
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F202571403178
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F202571403178
I don’t have a pic but a video showing how they are made up. The burn chamber inside and fins to transfer the heat to a spiral water jacket.
https://youtu.be/p3Lis4bi11Q
Or this design in a oil fired boiler
https://youtu.be/6GQ_QLaSbMo
https://youtu.be/8mttYRGCHIw
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Very interesting but some of the condensers have ally doors which melts at about 600 !
The burner tube gets hotter, I know as I used one of my gutter vac tubes as a make shift exhaust when bench testing , let’s just say that I no longer need the silicone U bend !
I will see how it goes with Mk 2 , if not much gain the my trusty L5 is going to lose its heat exchanger , maybe I can place it after the coil in a separate chamber , if anything can grab the wasted heat that will !
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Mk2 finished , just about to test the beast !
Dropped down to 8mm copper coil and got more coils 😁
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1548879836_380627DF-69AA-4514-85E0-BC8902E8E85B.png)
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Nice. Looks like a work of art. Get that longer end as the feed in and you should get the most temperature
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Nice. Looks like a work of art. Get that longer end as the feed in and you should get the most temperature
I have had to work it the other way , short pipe in up through the coil then out through the long straight to the reel , not ideal but the only option for best ease of build and servicing .
I got 32 coils in the end , I looked at getting 26 when using 10mm so could afford the gamble , looks like it paid off so far , as usual I forgot to take tank temp before test ::)roll , but I reckon 10c at most as not worked today and it was feckin Baltic all day .
Result was 45c from the build before it got to reel , reckon on losing 10c by the time it gets to brush head with average hose out on floor , that gives me 35c from the get go on demand with no pre heat or re circ , it usually gets 45 mins or so straight re circ before I even touch glass on a normal day .
I am happy with what I have so far , 35 on demand which will rise with a pre heat and even more as the day goes on , my work is done for the moment me thinks ;D ;D ;D ;D
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That’s more like it !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1549043868_69310B9C-40E1-427F-B28C-8AFBD5B0E7B2.png)
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Now that is impressive. The coil looks a work of art
Looks like your getting some decent temps from the little heater now
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Now that is impressive. The coil looks a work of art
Looks like your getting some decent temps from the little heater now
Just now his rear bumper is going to start to sag ;D
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Now that is impressive. The coil looks a work of art
Looks like your getting some decent temps from the little heater now
Yes there is definitely an art to it , one wrong move and it’s £20 of tube down the drain , the worst bit is getting the salt back out when you’ve finished !
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Now that is impressive. The coil looks a work of art
Looks like your getting some decent temps from the little heater now
Just now his rear bumper is going to start to sag ;D
I was thinking the same at the time , sadly that temp was at the end of the day , just been out getting the casing fitted up which is a chore as the draught puts the heater into shutdown mode , but I got there in the end
I did test temps cos I remembered this time , true on demand temps for Mk 2 are 12 feed with 47 out , well happy with that from fire up !
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Mk2 looks a bit nicer than Mk1 😁
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1549128074_8A8B0BCA-7AC9-4925-AACD-44231513FE72.png)
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Have you thought about putting a heat wrap around the effectively huge exhaust you have?
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Have you thought about putting a heat wrap around the effectively huge exhaust you have?
Had a quick look on eBay the other day , I think I will get some , could be something as simple as that will give me more temp as opposed to hacking up the L5 just yet !
I’m going to change the PRV to a 2 bar one while I’m at it as well , but less strain on the pump .
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I ordered this the other day for my set up. Was cheap and loads left
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F173678039595
Good idea with reducing the pressure valve
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I ordered this the other day for my set up. Was cheap and loads left
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F173678039595
Good idea with reducing the pressure valve
Sounds like you are doing a little add on , what could that be ?
If you have already fitted the tape has it made much difference , does it make the wrapped item cool to the touch ?
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Not been able to test with the tape on yet but my exhaust already came with like a sock version on before. Guess purely so it couldn’t start a fire.
Defo could touch it for a few seconds where as if I touch the metal of the exhaust I would leave skin behind.
Used the tape to wrap the egr cooler that iv plumbed into the exhaust. For now I’ve plumbed it into the heater loop so it preheats the water before the boiler. (Simple set up) Been waiting for parts to recirculating back into the tank. Lower inlet water temps from the tank water should get more heat out the exhaust so that will be a more efficient. Altho I’ve also thought I will be trailing another pump and plumbing round the van that could freeze up this time of year when not using. So not sure about changing it yet
I work part time because of family commitments so tend to drain the pump and heat exchanger and let things freeze on days I’m not working
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Yes , I think I will wrap the exhaust and see where that takes me to temp wise , my connie is starting to look like a scrapyard ;D ;D
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Are you still left with much heat out the exhaust.
The idea of house condensing boilers is that the water feeds in nearest the flu and progressively heats the water as it gets closer to the flame. Guess how you set it up. Water goes down the coils and then feeds back through the central return.
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My water goes in at the point the coils start, up towards the loose coil , this is the burner end , then it comes out through the long straight away from the burner , that is the downside to being able to slide the whole coil out, but it does do away with internal connections .
Gonna weigh this lot in with old alloys and batteries soon !(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1549215168_9DBCE959-2F5A-4D40-8CDD-561A03BAB68D.png)
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Did the copper wrap around the outside work at all?
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Did the copper wrap around the outside work at all?
I don’t think it made a difference to be honest , it only really made a difference when the feed water was quite warm , when cold it seemed to zapp heat from the chrome pipe to the point that the inner coil suffered as a result, don’t forget though that that was on Mk1 where the inner coil was hard up against the inside of the chrome pipe
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I’m going to change my set up. So I have water out the tank through the EGR cooler into the pump. Then Through the exchanger then either to the hose reel or a pressure relief valve into the tank.
That way I will always be able to keep the coldest water over the egr cooler to extract the most wasted exhaust heat. This should give me a little warmer inlet temps for the main heat exchanger. Hopefully this is the simplest way to increase the efficiency a little.
Is your pump working hard to overcome the 6 bar relief valve? I’ve just order a 2 bar. Hope that’s enough
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Here's a nice, daft question (and it cuts back to earlier points in the thread before trying to get "waste" heat out of the exhaust). Rather than using a heat exchanger to move heat from a closed loop into the pure, has anyone tried just running pure directly through the heater and seeing if it becomes contaminated in any way?
For information, I've not been following every word of the thread so this may (1) already have been covered (2) not relate to what's being done now (3) be a really stupid question for a reason I don't even know exists.
Vin
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I’m going to change my set up. So I have water out the tank through the EGR cooler into the pump. Then Through the exchanger then either to the hose reel or a pressure relief valve into the tank.
That way I will always be able to keep the coldest water over the egr cooler to extract the most wasted exhaust heat. This should give me a little warmer inlet temps for the main heat exchanger. Hopefully this is the simplest way to increase the efficiency a little.
Is your pump working hard to overcome the 6 bar relief valve? I’ve just order a 2 bar. Hope that’s enough
I dont have a 6 bar PRV , its a 3 bar ! , So about 45 PSI + 20% , so 55 PSI release , its the standard valve that plumbers use day to day , I can get a 2 bar on Ebay for £10 .
That should release at 35 PSI tops , back when I had a pressure gauge within the system I found that running as normal with Univalve open was about 25 PSI , so 35 blow off should be perfect !
The 3 bar does not really labour the pump as it is but 2 would be a better choice I think .
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Here's a nice, daft question (and it cuts back to earlier points in the thread before trying to get "waste" heat out of the exhaust). Rather than using a heat exchanger to move heat from a closed loop into the pure, has anyone tried just running pure directly through the heater and seeing if it becomes contaminated in any way?
For information, I've not been following every word of the thread so this may (1) already have been covered (2) not relate to what's being done now (3) be a really stupid question for a reason I don't even know exists.
Vin
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is what I am doing Vin !
Tank-Pump-DI-Copper coil inside exhaust-Hose-Window .
When I shut pole off the hot water goes back to tank and back through above again .
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No secondary water cicuit , extra pumps , batteries , split chargers .
Just an 85 amp Numax MF linked to alternator and solar charge system .
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is what I am doing Vin !
Tank-Pump-DI-Copper coil inside exhaust-Hose-Window .
When I shut pole off the hot water goes back to tank and back through above again .
Sorry, as I mentioned, I've not read every word of the thread.
The setup I thought might be effective was something along the lines of those people who have an immersion, so heating the tank of water but with a Webasto rather than the dodginess of a self-installed immersion heater.
Your work on recovering the heat from the exhaust is a crucially important addition, in my opinion. It seems to me that in an ideal world you'd want the exhaust to come out at ambient temperature for maximum efficiency. It really surprises me that no-one offers this as a built option.
Vin
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https://youtu.be/IjDDlI_42a4 Might be useful to making that set up work perfectly
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That is what I am doing Vin !
Tank-Pump-DI-Copper coil inside exhaust-Hose-Window .
When I shut pole off the hot water goes back to tank and back through above again .
Sorry, as I mentioned, I've not read every word of the thread.
The setup I thought might be effective was something along the lines of those people who have an immersion, so heating the tank of water but with a Webasto rather than the dodginess of a self-installed immersion heater.
Your work on recovering the heat from the exhaust is a crucially important addition, in my opinion. It seems to me that in an ideal world you'd want the exhaust to come out at ambient temperature for maximum efficiency. It really surprises me that no-one offers this as a built option.
Vin
If I had a bit of wedge to build this thing into an off the shelf item I would believe me !
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https://youtu.be/IjDDlI_42a4 Might be useful to making that set up work perfectly
Best link since sliced bread that !
I saw his first review vid , it was one of the vids that inspired me to build my machine.
But a quick look at the latest here has just given me 60 degree water on demand from cold tank !
a900 what a find matey , cheers ;D
Good job I ordered that heat wrap and prv you linked the other day as my chrome pipe has just made my infrared thermometer obsolete by getting over 650 Celsius !
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Your work on recovering the heat from the exhaust is a crucially important addition, in my opinion. It seems to me that in an ideal world you'd want the exhaust to come out at ambient temperature for maximum efficiency. It really surprises me that no-one offers this as a built option.
Vin
If I had a bit of wedge to build this thing into an off the shelf item I would believe me !
I just found something on a narrowboat forum where they pointed out my theory above is incorrect. You can't cool the exhaust too much as it will cause water vapour in the exhaust (around 12% of the exhaust volume) to condense into liquid in the exhaust if its temperature is too low.
Getting the right amount of heat however, is free energy.
Vin
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https://youtu.be/IjDDlI_42a4 Might be useful to making that set up work perfectly
Best link since sliced bread that !
I saw his first review vid , it was one of the vids that inspired me to build my machine.
But a quick look at the latest here has just given me 60 degree water on demand from cold tank !
a900 what a find matey , cheers ;D
Good job I ordered that heat wrap and prv you linked the other day as my chrome pipe has just made my infrared thermometer obsolete by getting over 650 Celsius !
Now this is getting impressive. 60c on demand.
I’ve replumbed my water heater to preheat the water from the egr cooler. And finding I’ve made it a lot more efficient. The pump speed that used to allow the heater to idle isn’t enough. It needs a lot more water flow. Not able to do anymore testing as the circulation pump has broken and waiting for a replacement.
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Your work on recovering the heat from the exhaust is a crucially important addition, in my opinion. It seems to me that in an ideal world you'd want the exhaust to come out at ambient temperature for maximum efficiency. It really surprises me that no-one offers this as a built option.
Vin
If I had a bit of wedge to build this thing into an off the shelf item I would believe me !
I just found something on a narrowboat forum where they pointed out my theory above is incorrect. You can't cool the exhaust too much as it will cause water vapour in the exhaust (around 12% of the exhaust volume) to condense into liquid in the exhaust if its temperature is too low.
Getting the right amount of heat however, is free energy.
Vin
This is something I am finding now. Got my webasto 90 with an egr cooler on the exhaust. Water runs through the EGR cooler into the pump and through the heat exchanger to the reel.
The exhaust is now warm. Can hold your hand in front of the outlet and it’s a pleasent warm temp. Noticed I’m getting a lot of condensation in the tail part of the exhaust now. Will have to see how it effects the exhaust over time. Will it mix with soot and clog up. Who knows.
Will probably cut a small hole in the lowest part of your exhaust so condensate can drip out.
But success in efficiency. Before 12 on my controller kept the boiler from shutting off at idle. Now it needs 30 to stay on idle.
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I have just fitted the exhaust wrap and 2 bar prv , not run the heater yet but will know tomorrow if it makes a difference, as for the prv it would seem 2 bar is the one to have , when pole shut off it only 3 seconds until it opens up , and the pump then draws exactly the same power as it does with system running as normal
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I have just fitted the exhaust wrap and 2 bar prv , not run the heater yet but will know tomorrow if it makes a difference, as for the prv it would seem 2 bar is the one to have , when pole shut off it only 3 seconds until it opens up , and the pump then draws exactly the same power as it does with system running as normal
Ace. Keep us updated
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hows the heater running rich?
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hows the heater running rich?
Absolutely bang on Daz , now that I have found out how to access the burner settings on the LCD control unit I can adjust diesel injection and air intake to give me anywhere between 35 to 60 degrees on demand from a cold tank.
And all this is using just 5 amps an hour and between 400 and 600 ml of diesel per hour !
I am just in the process of refitting the van again so I can use the 10L tank supplied with the heater as opposed to topping up a 5L can every day .
I am also doing away with the steel frame on my hose reel and making a more compact one , have not gone back to the drill yet though 😁
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I have just fitted the exhaust wrap and 2 bar prv , not run the heater yet but will know tomorrow if it makes a difference, as for the prv it would seem 2 bar is the one to have , when pole shut off it only 3 seconds until it opens up , and the pump then draws exactly the same power as it does with system running as normal
Ace. Keep us updated
As I said, the 2 bar PRV is the one for me .
As for the heat wrap , it does not seem to have made much difference to temps, but it is serving a purpose in keeping the surface of the chrome pipe down, my fear was that on pull out the reel would maybe over spool and the hose would land on the hot pipe, not an issue now though.
You can tell it is cheap stuff though as when first fired up it smokes like mad and then changes colour to white , so I could have picked any old colour really 😆
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More new toys from China 😁(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1550593600_873DF2E8-39E9-45D4-B52A-707810B431A4.png)
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New toys are always fun. ;D
Sorry if I missed it, but did you post details of your pressure relief valve?
I’m looking to fit one to mine as an experiment. Save me running both pumps all the time. Any chance of a link please?
Thanks P@F.
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New toys are always fun. ;D
Sorry if I missed it, but did you post details of your pressure relief valve?
I’m looking to fit one to mine as an experiment. Save me running both pumps all the time. Any chance of a link please?
Thanks P@F.
just run one pump then jonny......and plug it back into return valves in between jobs.....
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I think Jonny is trying to avoid having the heater shut down when packing away Daz .
I will get a link up in a minute Jonny
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This is the one I use at the moment 2 bar about 35psi it opens up .
You can get a 3 bar over the counter at the plumbers merchant , these open up at about 55psi , both work well but the 2 bar works better with my setup by opening a little bit sooner .
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Bar-1-2-FBSP-x-FBSP-Pressure-Relief-Valve/152118006420?hash=item236af09294:g:L2IAAOSwimdXowqn
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New toys are always fun. ;D
Sorry if I missed it, but did you post details of your pressure relief valve?
I’m looking to fit one to mine as an experiment. Save me running both pumps all the time. Any chance of a link please?
Thanks P@F.
just run one pump then jonny......and plug it back into return valves in between jobs.....
Pressure relief valve is far easier mate. Plus mine does go into standby mode when I’m walkjng back to the van sometimes.
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This is the one I use at the moment 2 bar about 35psi it opens up .
You can get a 3 bar over the counter at the plumbers merchant , these open up at about 55psi , both work well but the 2 bar works better with my setup by opening a little bit sooner .
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-Bar-1-2-FBSP-x-FBSP-Pressure-Relief-Valve/152118006420?hash=item236af09294:g:L2IAAOSwimdXowqn
Top man.
Thanks P@F.
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I think Jonny is trying to avoid having the heater shut down when packing away Daz .
I will get a link up in a minute Jonny
it wont shut down if you plug it into return valves....mine never shuts down until i turn it off at the end of the day.....
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New toys are always fun. ;D
Sorry if I missed it, but did you post details of your pressure relief valve?
I’m looking to fit one to mine as an experiment. Save me running both pumps all the time. Any chance of a link please?
Thanks P@F.
just run one pump then jonny......and plug it back into return valves in between jobs.....
Pressure relief valve is far easier mate. Plus mine does go into standby mode when I’m walkjng back to the van sometimes.
it goes into "half heat " mode but soon fires back up when you plug the return valves in....if yours is shutting down then you must walk VERY SLOWLY back to the van..... ;D
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New toys are always fun. ;D
Sorry if I missed it, but did you post details of your pressure relief valve?
I’m looking to fit one to mine as an experiment. Save me running both pumps all the time. Any chance of a link please?
Thanks P@F.
just run one pump then jonny......and plug it back into return valves in between jobs.....
Pressure relief valve is far easier mate. Plus mine does go into standby mode when I’m walkjng back to the van sometimes.
it goes into "half heat " mode but soon fires back up when you plug the return valves in....if yours is shutting down then you must walk VERY SLOWLY back to the van..... ;D
By the time I’ve wiped out a dozen plant pots and garden gnomes, and gone back to unhook the hose off wheelie bins it definitely goes into standby. ;D
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Jonny if you haven’t ordered the PRV yet don’t get the 2 bar one go with the 3 bar , I had to up the flow today and didn’t get extra at the head , all it does is open up the prv as well as the brush head , the spring inside is just too weak I think.
My 3 bar is going back on tonight!
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Jonny if you haven’t ordered the PRV yet don’t get the 2 bar one go with the 3 bar , I had to up the flow today and didn’t get extra at the head , all it does is open up the prv as well as the brush head , the spring inside is just too weak I think.
My 3 bar is going back on tonight!
Thanks for the heads up mate. I’ve ordered the 2 bar, but I’ll get the 3 bar too. I’ll
Have a tinker and see what works best.
Does the 3 bar also have half inch female threads?
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Yes but you can get them with any configuration MF ,MM, FF
3 bar you can get at any plumbing centres
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Arghh , mine won’t stay shut now !
Got the 3bar in van , might change it over now !!!
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All swapped and working like a goodun again !
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Arghh , mine won’t stay shut now !
Got the 3bar in van , might change it over now !!!
You’ll need to work till 2pm now to get finished mate.
;D
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Better flow and for some reason hotter water now !
But I do have 3 x 4 bedders with Connies left to do 😡
At least I don’t have to tinker tonight though !
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Better flow and for some reason hotter water now !
But I do have 3 x 4 bedders with Connies left to do 😡
At least I don’t have to tinker tonight though !
I wonder if the 2 bar PRV was opening up slightly during use? Meaning some hot water was getting diverted back to your tank when you didn’t want it to be.
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Thats exactly what was happening , the other thing that was happening was the valve was not shutting fully when the flow was returned to brush head , that is why the 3 bar is better as the spring inside is stronger and shuts off every time now , 2 bar must have been too close to system pressure at normal operation .
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You might be alright though as Plumweb sent me a 3 bar first time round in error , they did then send the 2 bar at no charge and told me to keep the 3 bar aswell so win , win ;D
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You might be alright though as Plumweb sent me a 3 bar first time round in error , they did then send the 2 bar at no charge and told me to keep the 3 bar aswell so win , win ;D
Kerching. That doesn’t happen very often. 👍
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a900 , whats going on with your build at the moment ?
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It’s so nice not having to top up a 5L can every day now , now I have the 10L supplied tank fitted I only need to fill up every 4 days 😊
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1551710152_C389CB84-5319-430D-A16D-A06B6AB4F422.png)
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a900 , whats going on with your build at the moment ?
Got my egr cooler inline with the exhaust to preheat the water. It’s Cooling the exhaust down enough to cause water vapour to drip out. Exhaust temps Before egr install 80.c. after egr install 35c.
Notice the extra efficientcy as I require a faster flow of water to recirculate back to the tank to stop the heater shutting down through overheating.
I’ve also switched from 20% waste oil and red diesel to 20% waste oil and Kerosene. Will see how that gets on as far as reducing the eventual burner clogging up. Also installed a fuel filter before the heater pump. If I still get clogging after a few months I will reduce the waste oil percentage. Kerosene is costing me 68p per litre so can’t complain. Cheaper than when I was running gas boiler and safer fuel to use.
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It’s so nice not having to top up a 5L can every day now , now I have the 10L supplied tank fitted I only need to fill up every 4 days 😊
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1551710152_C389CB84-5319-430D-A16D-A06B6AB4F422.png)
I started with a 5l container too and quickly learnt the same.
Very impressed. Your set up is looking neat. How you getting on with the set up?
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It’s going very well now, I have now been able to fit a partial cover to the fan without shutdown occurring due to it cooling the heat sensor too much , it has also made the thing a lot quieter!
I can get between 30 and 60 on demand now too , using the settings on the lcd controller, I don’t ramp it all the way up anymore though as it got that hot at the burner tube a while back it melted a hole in my tank , luckily the water level was down below and as I caught it while hot I was able to trowel it back with my mole grips 🤣🤣
Got my ingredients for the next model together now , at least my connie will be warm this weekend!
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1552055570_EBB99028-37B2-4ED5-B193-21C8256C18A5.png)
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Great what’s your aim with Mk2 or 3 ?
Hotter water? Less fuel used? Beater? Quieter?
After using the kerosene for a week I’m super impressed. Starts really clean. Defo would recommend anyone running one of these heaters to use Kero. My research tells me it’s a cleaner burning fuel
Also with it being lighter than diesel it should blend better for me with waste oil. Time will prove this
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Great what’s your aim with Mk2 or 3 ?
Hotter water? Less fuel used? Beater? Quieter?
After using the kerosene for a week I’m super impressed. Starts really clean. Defo would recommend anyone running one of these heaters to use Kero. My research tells me it’s a cleaner burning fuel
Also with it being lighter than diesel it should blend better for me with waste oil. Time will prove this
Its Mk3 that I'm toying with now , just wanted to see what the hot air blower alone would do temp wise , first I used the heat exchanger from the L5 inside an old surround sound sub box , this didnt do much .
Then I coiled 60m of Gardiner green inside the box on its own and got 20 up to 45 on demand , not shabby but in conjunction with the original exhaust output it has scope , also meaning that the heater as you get it would not have to be cut up at all .
Tell me more about kero , can you use it straight , can you mix with diesel , where do you get the stuff ?
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Doing research on boat forums and the like people use Kero straight and find it’s cleaner burning so requires less maintenance. Burns slightly hotter but has slightly less energy per litre because it’s slightly less dense than diesel.
You can get it anywhere that sells 28 second heating oil because that’s what it is. So companies that sell it for home boilers. Just shop around for prices. Some don’t like selling in smaller quantities so charge a lot more than they could.
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I have looked for it but cant seem to find it , unless I'm looking in the wrong places of course , but can it be say mixed 50/50 with diesel ?
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Great what’s your aim with Mk2 or 3 ?
Hotter water? Less fuel used? Beater? Quieter?
After using the kerosene for a week I’m super impressed. Starts really clean. Defo would recommend anyone running one of these heaters to use Kero. My research tells me it’s a cleaner burning fuel
Also with it being lighter than diesel it should blend better for me with waste oil. Time will prove this
Its Mk3 that I'm toying with now , just wanted to see what the hot air blower alone would do temp wise , first I used the heat exchanger from the L5 inside an old surround sound sub box , this didnt do much .
Then I coiled 60m of Gardiner green inside the box on its own and got 20 up to 45 on demand , not shabby but in conjunction with the original exhaust output it has scope , also meaning that the heater as you get it would not have to be cut up at all .
Tell me more about kero , can you use it straight , can you mix with diesel , where do you get the stuff ?
No one sells it in small quantities in our area. 500 liters is the smallest amount the suppliers will deliver and they require it to go into a diesel central heating approved diesel storage tank. I understand that its their responsibility to partially ensure (do their bit) that the oil is being used for heating only and not in a road vehicle.
Of course all this is much easier if you have oil central heating; you just need to syphon your requirements off. :D
The marinas sell red diesel. For taxation purposes they split its use into a percentage for propulsion and the remainder heating. If I remember the split agreed by the Receiver is 60% propulsion and 40% heating. The tax on the heating element is less than the propulsion element. You can specify 100% heating, but you can expect a surprise visit from VOSA and they will dip all your vehicles diesel tanks.
Canal live aboards are quite happy with that split as most don't use much diesel for central heating - its mainly coal or one of many solid fuel derivitives available these days.
Inland Marinas are required by law to sell a higher grade red diesel. Its much kinder on our Webasto diesel heaters than the less environmentally stuff was a few years back. But I understand some Marinas on the coast can still sell the less environmentally friendly stuff (lower grade) as they expect the diesel to be used at sea.
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I use this company https://www.rix.co.uk/locations/
Turn up remind them of your account, tell them what you want, pay and get invoice. Then take window cleaning barrels to the unit and staff fill them for you. Really friendly and helpful staff.
Within 30 miles of me there were 2 suppliers and I’m a fairly rural area. I just chose the one I passed regular. Who happens to be cheaper.
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Today I decided to check what the actual power consumption of the heater was , I was very surprised at how little it takes !
On start up it pulls 9 amps max for 5 minutes, then drops back to 2.5 amps per hour of use , so for my average day I should be looking at the heater pulling 15 or so amps out of the battery , my pump pulls about 15 amps over the same period, so 30 amps total for a 6 hour run !
That would explain why my battery never needs a bench charge !
I reckon a decent battery should cope with the demand without the backup charge facility that I have .
This could well be the budget heater that requires no scr chargers or 2 x 105 ampers ;D
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Good news - now start selling them!
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Good news - now start selling them!
he is!.....£4.5k to you smudger! ;) ;D
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Today I decided to check what the actual power consumption of the heater was , I was very surprised at how little it takes !
On start up it pulls 9 amps max for 5 minutes, then drops back to 2.5 amps per hour of use , so for my average day I should be looking at the heater pulling 15 or so amps out of the battery , my pump pulls about 15 amps over the same period, so 30 amps total for a 6 hour run !
That would explain why my battery never needs a bench charge !
I reckon a decent battery should cope with the demand without the backup charge facility that I have .
This could well be the budget heater that requires no scr chargers or 2 x 105 ampers ;D
do you think youll beat lee pryor to "a hot water system on the cheap" rich? ;D
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Good news - now start selling them!
on a serious note...i dont think rich will be selling them as he will be liable if anything goes wrong in regards to safety......it needs to be tested properly to meet safety requirements i would have thought.....
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Daz , any chance of you posting a pic of your heater with the cover off , I am interested in where the exhaust leaves the heater and then exits the floor more than anything.
Cheers mate ;D
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566500210_Screenshot_20190822-195536_Photos.jpg)
This is the only pic I have of the guts of my heater rich....
Maybe the guys with the landscape cabinet would have better access to take better pics....
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Cheers Daz , do you know what seals the exhaust where it goes through the van floor ?
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ask him a hard one like point to your ar$e or your elbow ;D
Darran
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;D ;D ;D
Daz does make a good point though with the safety check .
I have no idea what it entails , being as the heater is an import which I don’t think carries a CE mark at present ?
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Is it even legally marketable ?
Anybody know ?
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Is it even legally marketable ?
Anybody know ?
If you lived in China it would be ;D..
Why not just sell the info on how to build it ? what parts you need, where to get parts etc and a set of instructions.
This may be of help ;D https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3D0rSm9tMLy9m9wJth7Fl7S/apply-to-enter-the-den
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Cheers Daz , do you know what seals the exhaust where it goes through the van floor ?
no idea.....grippatank will know of course.......
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ask him a hard one like point to your ar$e or your elbow ;D
Darran
so you as the boss of a professional cleaning company would take a risk on a cheap chinese copy diesel water heater made by a clever little window cleaner.......good move that smudger! :-*
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For testing purposes only - yes I would
I'm sure P&F wouldn't use inferior parts to allow diesel to leak out ;)
;D
Darran
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Is it even legally marketable ?
Anybody know ?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/ce-marking
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CE = Chinese Export
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none of that may apply after October :-\
Darran
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sounds like a lot of old flaffing about, I'm happy to stay cold water and have done for last 13 years, plus over say last five years we have had milder winter maybe mor wetter and it's only going to get better over more years,
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Bit of a mine field that :-\ :'(
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Bit of a mine field that :-\ :'(
Yeh, for a hobby I used to convert vans into campers and as long as the gas appliances had a been checked and approved by a corgi registered engineer then I could sell them on, its only when I looked at turning it into a business that things became more complicated.
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
Your making yourself look stupid now, the only person who seems obsessed with what people have paid is you.
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
Your making yourself look stupid now, the only person who seems obsessed with what people have paid is you.
Exactly, these same guys were buying used Gardiner poles on Ebay for twice their new value, they wont even notice that your heater is cheaper. (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566557881_grin.gif)
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Did a power test yesterday may even be able to run these of the system battery alone !
5 hours running on full whack .
Amp use in bottom left
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566569806_955F74DD-59DC-4F57-A221-DC790782EBAB.png)
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That figure includes start up and shut down power too
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
Your making yourself look stupid now, the only person who seems obsessed with what people have paid is you.
awwwww..... getting a bit touchy are we ? here have a kiss for the weekend and chill out :-*
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
not at all......if it works then it works....i cant see it being reliable though if its a chinese copy.....
if something sounds too good to be true it often is....
a guy in the gym bought a tv(55inch) for £200 from a guy in a van(retail nearly £3k!)......he got home and it doesnt work..... ;D
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No not touchy..just stating a fact
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That figure includes start up and shut down power too
Looking good. Hope it works out for you, you will be able to provide hot water for those who want to try it but cant afford the real thing ;D
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i think its great richy has managed to build a hot water system at a fraction of the cost of a professional install......but i dont expect him to sell them cheap to all you lads....... ;D
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
not at all......if it works then it works....i cant see it being reliable though if its a chinese copy.....
if something sounds too good to be true it often is....
a guy in the gym bought a tv(55inch) for £200 from a guy in a van(retail nearly £3k!)......he got home and it doesnt work..... ;D
Bit like the ones who used to stop you in the street needing to get rid of their stock of Rolex watches ;D
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i think its mostly petty,jealous window cleaners having a go at guys that have spent a few grand for a professional hot water system install.........they either cant afford one or their just tight b***ards.... ;D
rich probably cant afford one but he s using his mechanical know how/skills to build one himself for a fraction of the cost.....fair play to the guy! :)
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Daz I could buy one today if I wanted to , but I don’t have the payload or space to put one in !
And I am getting the same hot water you do , not that cheap Chinese copy water :D
Just moving the van to the music department and I will get a pic of the nasty hot water I’m using
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Look it’s me doing overtime!
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566572850_D81B5809-D3A4-47E3-940E-632EC0D70F43.png)
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Temp from brush and after heater
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566574158_76C51823-ED3C-4D94-8FEB-892AC539A2B7.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566574158_7F99E551-8915-42D9-AFF1-358011199EDE.png)
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No not touchy..just stating a fact
you mean opinion ::)roll
hot water is hot water - simple some want to pay through the nose for it others happy to have value for money ;D
you know the sides will never agree
Darran
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My cheap Chinese water cleans far better than Daz’s ;D
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No not touchy..just stating a fact
you mean opinion ::)roll
hot water is hot water - simple some want to pay through the nose for it others happy to have value for money ;D
you know the sides will never agree
Darran
We all use purified water but all use different ways in doing so. Be it a 4040 // 600 gpd or 450 gpd or lower etc. Whilst others use double DI or harvest rain water etc and yet no one questions that or shouts about how much it costs them.
Why cant it be the same with just heating up cold water to an higher temperature guys! It doesn't really matter in which way it's done is it
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Are the heater units CE marked ?
if so then as said you could sell them as a conversion "KIT" - and that doesn't mean the customer putting the thing together - it could be fully assembled except for (arguments sake) an exhaust
at this stage P&F could be 'giving' these away for prototype testing with the price 'covering' the cost of parts ;)
I should think many of those who paid 4.5k will be hoping for it to fail just again to justify there own spend
Darran
not at all......if it works then it works....i cant see it being reliable though if its a chinese copy.....
if something sounds too good to be true it often is....
a guy in the gym bought a tv(55inch) for £200 from a guy in a van(retail nearly £3k!)......he got home and it doesnt work..... ;D
Daz, I had one of them!! When I got home the volume button wouldn’t work. .......................... but for that price you couldn’t turn it down.
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;D ;D ;D
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No not touchy..just stating a fact
you mean opinion ::)roll
hot water is hot water - simple some want to pay through the nose for it others happy to have value for money ;D
you know the sides will never agree
Darran
We all use purified water but all use different ways in doing so. Be it a 4040 // 600 gpd or 450 gpd or lower etc. Whilst others use double DI or harvest rain water etc and yet no one questions that or shouts about how much it costs them.
Why cant it be the same with just heating up cold water to an higher temperature guys! It doesn't really matter in which way it's done is it
You're forgetting the Ionic parts per billion system buyers.
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My take on it is this....
those that have spent (shall I say a large amount - seeing as they are a bit prickly) on a hot water system have, on every occasion made it clear that any other form of producing hot is not only as good at cleaning as 'their' hot water but is either dangerous or done because those who choose other methods are some way a second class business.
If your circumstances are such you wish to buy a system there's no problem with that - but the benefits of hot are NOT massive they are marginal - definitely a would like to have as opposed to I need to have. they are more about making the job comfortable than cleaning better ( I have run various tests and time trials )
There is no way the investment in a heated system from grippa etc.. pays for itself within 8 years never mind 3 years so as a business decision it makes no sense - for a single operator possibly. But p&f is doing something fantastic - taking an air heater and turning it into an on demand water heater for what is a more attractive cost (lets face it the 'Webasto' systems are just a glorified conversion job.
Darran
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And it’s just about to get a whole lot easier , check this out ;D
Not sure on specs yet but it would be usable as a grippa type setup.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566648250_B00ACA04-CC21-4273-8639-A92226BC8B08.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566648250_35FEE060-52F9-4BFD-841D-254B038EC107.png)
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https://m.aliexpress.com/item/33018892208.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail&fbclid=IwAR0jW3KaQDGLEqyOuYIpuaBEMr0ckNDoftz01yZfiRJparqwvgYdtE_Jo3c&tt=sns_none&aff_platform=default&cpt=1566649009647&sk=baAGFs0C&aff_trace_key=f82d94f21fc14bb7bbe91b82bd7cb917-1566649009647-08184-baAGFs0C&terminal_id=d8907decbca5443d9dceacf4d791b788
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Great find.
Thats just what we wanted.
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My take on it is this....
those that have spent (shall I say a large amount - seeing as they are a bit prickly) on a hot water system have, on every occasion made it clear that any other form of producing hot is not only as good at cleaning as 'their' hot water but is either dangerous or done because those who choose other methods are some way a second class business.
If your circumstances are such you wish to buy a system there's no problem with that - but the benefits of hot are NOT massive they are marginal - definitely a would like to have as opposed to I need to have. they are more about making the job comfortable than cleaning better ( I have run various tests and time trials )
There is no way the investment in a heated system from grippa etc.. pays for itself within 8 years never mind 3 years so as a business decision it makes no sense - for a single operator possibly. But p&f is doing something fantastic - taking an air heater and turning it into an on demand water heater for what is a more attractive cost (lets face it the 'Webasto' systems are just a glorified conversion job.
Darran
i reckon i shave around 30 mins off my day using hot water compared to cold water cleaning...ok its not a huge amount but over the course of 8 years it is...on an average of 2 hours a week saved (on a 46 week year) its 736 hours over 8 years which is over a full months work(working day and night! ;D).... ;D ;D ;D
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My take on it is this....
those that have spent (shall I say a large amount - seeing as they are a bit prickly) on a hot water system have, on every occasion made it clear that any other form of producing hot is not only as good at cleaning as 'their' hot water but is either dangerous or done because those who choose other methods are some way a second class business.
If your circumstances are such you wish to buy a system there's no problem with that - but the benefits of hot are NOT massive they are marginal - definitely a would like to have as opposed to I need to have. they are more about making the job comfortable than cleaning better ( I have run various tests and time trials )
There is no way the investment in a heated system from grippa etc.. pays for itself within 8 years never mind 3 years so as a business decision it makes no sense - for a single operator possibly. But p&f is doing something fantastic - taking an air heater and turning it into an on demand water heater for what is a more attractive cost (lets face it the 'Webasto' systems are just a glorified conversion job.
Darran
Totally agree, with the exception of NK the claims on what hot water can do tend to rise with the money spent, we now even have so called sweet spot that for some reason can only be reached by an expensive diesel system and any temp below it is no different to cold, the stupidity and delusion in this is unreal.
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My take on it is this....
those that have spent (shall I say a large amount - seeing as they are a bit prickly) on a hot water system have, on every occasion made it clear that any other form of producing hot is not only as good at cleaning as 'their' hot water but is either dangerous or done because those who choose other methods are some way a second class business.
If your circumstances are such you wish to buy a system there's no problem with that - but the benefits of hot are NOT massive they are marginal - definitely a would like to have as opposed to I need to have. they are more about making the job comfortable than cleaning better ( I have run various tests and time trials )
There is no way the investment in a heated system from grippa etc.. pays for itself within 8 years never mind 3 years so as a business decision it makes no sense - for a single operator possibly. But p&f is doing something fantastic - taking an air heater and turning it into an on demand water heater for what is a more attractive cost (lets face it the 'Webasto' systems are just a glorified conversion job.
Darran
i reckon i shave around 30 mins off my day using hot water compared to cold water cleaning...ok its not a huge amount but over the course of 8 years it is...on an average of 2 hours a week saved (on a 46 week year) its 736 hours over 8 years which is over a full months work(working day and night! ;D).... ;D ;D ;D
That's absolute nonsense, there will be days when I can knock an hour of the exact same work and other days can add an hour without seeming to do anything more, in other words there's no way you have got your cleaning to the point where you can time it day in day out to the nearest half hour, like I keep saying you guys should think before you type.
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I can already do better than the sweet spot for 250 notes :D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566651459_B3102E73-E38F-416D-8D5C-5F3CDDF7D68F.png)
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can you use a webasto thermo top ?
I see you can pick these for around £300 fully re furb'ed
Darran
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
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I can already do better than the sweet spot for 250 notes :D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1566651459_B3102E73-E38F-416D-8D5C-5F3CDDF7D68F.png)
What flow is that on? thats good going
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That is on about 1.8/2.0 LPM .
It’s not on that from the start though , that 71 was at the end of the day , the heater was being fed with recirculated water that was left in the tank .
I have found that normally from fire up I can raise the tank water temp by 35*c , normally 10*c in the tank jumps up to 45*c , then if all the hose is out 10*c is lost giving 35 at the brush head which I feel is ample in frosty weather (No broken panes) .
The temps rise quite rapidly , I find myself running at 75% power once the tank is half empty .
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That is on about 1.8/2.0 LPM .
It’s not on that from the start though , that 71 was at the end of the day , the heater was being fed with recirculated water that was left in the tank .
I have found that normally from fire up I can raise the tank water temp by 35*c , normally 10*c in the tank jumps up to 45*c , then if all the hose is out 10*c is lost giving 35 at the brush head which I feel is ample in frosty weather (No broken panes) .
The temps rise quite rapidly , I find myself running at 75% power once the tank is half empty .
For the money thats really good although it will probably drop more in winter but still good enough
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
Daz, please, please just please don't make statements you know nothing about - I've got a tank unto 65 degrees - hardly 'luke warm'
Darran
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Don’t worry, new design coming very soon , stepping away from the copper coils and the mild steel tubes for this one , full stainless welded version that I would be happier selling ;)
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keep up the good work !
even if you never get to sell them ( I hope you do ) its great watching the development of your heater
Darran
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Darren , does the immersion heat the full body of water ?
I know they get mounted at the bottom, but does the heat rise to the top leaving colder water at the tank outlet ?
It does with my diesel, I have fitted another outlet half way up the tank and draw from both giving a uniform supply of top and bottom water , the idea was to shut off the bottom supply and just draw from the top until I got to that level and then switch to bottom again when I reached the half tank level , but I keep forgetting to do it :D ;D
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Darren , also did you see the new gen of heater I posted ?, could be of use to you , heating the vans and cycling the water all night on a lower heat setting could be ok for you , the only thing that I’m not sure of is how they do it , if they have made veins through the ally heat exchanger it would be fine for coolant but I am not sure how ally copes with pure water ?
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When I use the immersion I also have a 'wave maker' inside the lid - these circulate the water ( cost between 5 and 40 quid off eBay) they are for fish tanks and create a decent current
my vans are also inside a unit so the water is capable of reaching a temprature without losing out to the colder air if left outside - I'm sure if I lagged the tank and set the thermostat to 80 it would reach that overnight
my dilemma is - the guys really art fussed if the water is hot or not and I want to trim up some costs - I can halve the unit rent by having a smaller unit to store equipment and have 8 parking spaces (rather than park everything inside) but I need a viable way to at least keep vans frost free - if that system can heat water as well so much the better
Darran
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Darren , also did you see the new gen of heater I posted ?, could be of use to you , heating the vans and cycling the water all night on a lower heat setting could be ok for you , the only thing that I’m not sure of is how they do it , if they have made veins through the ally heat exchanger it would be fine for coolant but I am not sure how ally copes with pure water ?
I did - and i'm interested - but haven't looked at the shipping options yet
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I now have a contact who imports the air heaters , he puts £30 on the cost of the heater but then checks them and gives aftersales care which EBay doesn’t, I may call him for more info on the dual purpose one and see if he can get them in , chances are it’s the same factory anyway , I will let you know
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
Daz, please, please just please don't make statements you know nothing about - I've got a tank unto 65 degrees - hardly 'luke warm'
Darran
It probably will be by the time its gone through all the microbore on the ground and pole hose as well as the tank itself loosing heat, especially in the colder months, even the diesel systems dont get that hot when the temp is 4-5C in the cold months after going through all the hoses.
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So, if I understand it, you guys start out with a cold tank of water, or a few degrees above zero - you then heat it as you go, but in the cold and through the hose you may get 35 degrees of heat - granted as you recycle between jobs your water temp rises so by mid afternoon you should be able to achieve 60 degrees
Whereas I start at 70 degrees in the tank this on a cold morning is around 45 at the brush and I work through the day yes water cools but not nearly as much as you think at the end of a full day remaining water was around 38 degrees but as the ambient temp rose in the afternoon I was still getting 30 at the brush
If I worked as little as Daz I suspect the water temp would have barely dropped......
Darran
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
Daz, please, please just please don't make statements you know nothing about - I've got a tank unto 65 degrees - hardly 'luke warm'
Darran
no doubt you have but it wont stay that way through your working day plus i bet your immersion was on for 12+ hours! :D
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See above post
10 hours - 3 hrs at a cost of 33p per/h 7 hrs at 21 p per/h
Darran
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See above post
10 hours - 3 hrs at a cost of 33p per/h 7 hrs at 21 p per/h
Darran
Lee Prior has fitted some outside 230v sockets in his unit so the driver can plug them in to frost heaters during the winter.
I have wired 230v into my van with an outside mounted socket on the side of the van, just like the installers do on fridge vans.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/16-amp-3-pin-OUTDOOR-WALL-MOUNTED-SOCKET-240v-WEATHERPROOF-IP44-caravan-camper/152307847557?hash=item2376415185:g:m5EAAOSwXeJYGxlu
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I saw that on Lee's video - that may be an option if/when I move but that would be purely air heating and not water - it cost enough to wire in 6 new sockets with 16 amp plugs and breakers where I am now
I mulling over several ideas and options
Darran
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Finally got my DIY diesel heater set up in a more professional box. Now set up with twin user and working perfectly. Still using the Heat exchanger on the exhaust which can raise the water temp around 10c before it gets into the normal heat exchanger.
Still running kerosene. Starting and stopping with no smoke. Stopped using waste oil for now 😂
Went back to gas over the summer to use up the gas supplies. But had a small fire that put itself out
Ripped out the gas straight away and a warning to all the gas users. We think a scrim had fallen on the gas boiler rather than an internal fault. But still won’t use it again. (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570348874_E0A00954-B6E4-420D-8F82-9392591992B3.jpeg)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570348692_AC20DDB6-1B66-4B9C-B3A0-A09F10503AE0.jpeg)
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When you say you think it was a scrim...... are you sure? Surely you could see the burnt cloth.
It may well be just the heat from its constant use which has caused that.
Very close call, Similar to mine. I chucked mine too.
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When you say you think it was a scrim...... are you sure? Surely you could see the burnt cloth.
Well we smelt a burning smell when we got in the van but as first thought someone was having a garden fire in the area. Second time we got in the van for a slip noticed the smell was only in the van
Opened the side door and it was like an episode of stranger things in the upside down. Little scrim fibres ashy and wafting through the air. Turned he gas off straight away Cus that was next to me.
Inspected the boiler and the fire was out by that point. I took the boiler apart to diagnose the cause. All the burning was up the back of the unit and there was no ash or burning inside the unit.
I think it could have been worse if it wasn’t for the fact I had mounted the diesel heaters steel box in the van and the gas burner was cobbled together mounted on it. So the fire was sort of contained in the box rather than touching anything else
Either way it’s out of the van now and the cheap Chinese gas boilers are not suitable for our industry. ( they say outdoor use only on them anyway and don’t have proper venting) Why is it gas engineers have to have qualifications and there equipment requires calibration?
Because if it’s all done wrong people die in houses
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Well as my fabricator was still on a go slow I decided to pay him a little visit to perk him up a bit !
Saw him at 1.30 and he’s not even started it !
He told me to pop back at 4.45 and it would be done , hmmm ??? ???
Well let’s just see then !
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You do know these little toy burners are not meant to be used for 6-7 hours a day cleaning windows don’t you,good for hosing the dog off after a walk or you’re boots but not for day after day waterfed poling.
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You do know these little toy burners are not meant to be used for 6-7 hours a day cleaning windows don’t you,good for hosing the dog off after a walk or you’re boots but not for day after day waterfed poling.
I take it your referring to the gas heaters
Darran
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Yeah I am sorry if I’ve got confused with another form of heater but the only other Gas one I know of is the concept system.
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Finally got my DIY diesel heater set up in a more professional box. Now set up with twin user and working perfectly. Still using the Heat exchanger on the exhaust which can raise the water temp around 10c before it gets into the normal heat exchanger.
Still running kerosene. Starting and stopping with no smoke. Stopped using waste oil for now 😂
Went back to gas over the summer to use up the gas supplies. But had a small fire that put itself out
Ripped out the gas straight away and a warning to all the gas users. We think a scrim had fallen on the gas boiler rather than an internal fault. But still won’t use it again. (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570348874_E0A00954-B6E4-420D-8F82-9392591992B3.jpeg)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570348692_AC20DDB6-1B66-4B9C-B3A0-A09F10503AE0.jpeg)
I would love to see how you have fitted the heater inside that enclosure please. Also, what enclosure is it A900 please?
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A man of his word !
Just have to test out this new design , let’s hope it gives as good results as the copper coil setup :D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570815345_CE222C58-8824-4BD9-804E-C4A981549C38.png)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570815345_872173E0-32E3-4E6E-85DD-D92E6261F594.png)
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Can we get some more details on the converted air heater...
Are you still using copper coils in the exhaust stream?
I’m using a Rittal enclosure I found on eBay cheap.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/uk.rs-online.com/mobile/amp/p/wall-boxes/1113715/
Changed the opening method Cus I didn’t have room in the van to swing a door. From the outside atleast it’s looking very professional. Will get some photos of the insides when I can.
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A900 , how freaky is that , my father in law was a manager at Rittal for years in Plymouth !
I have moved away from the copper coils for a minute , wanted to simplify things , will find out tomorrow !
I went back to shell and tube design to keep the temps down in van , if it doesn’t give the same/better water temps then I will put a coil inside as well , 2 heat exchangers rolled into 1
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Might be a bit difficult though as the fabricator downsized the exhaust exit , I asked him to leave it at 57mm to give me the option, must have fallen on deaf ears ::)roll
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A900 , how freaky is that , my father in law was a manager at Rittal for years in Plymouth !
I have moved away from the copper coils for a minute , wanted to simplify things , will find out tomorrow !
I went back to shell and tube design to keep the temps down in van , if it doesn’t give the same/better water temps then I will put a coil inside as well , 2 heat exchangers rolled into 1
Have you gone single tube or multiple? Going to be a lot more efficient to have multiple tubes as there is more surface area to transfer the heat
Got my enclosure for £25. Bargain
I’m burning kerosene now as it’s cheaper
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It’s only the one tube , the whole of it has a 1.5mm jacket of water between the inner and outer tubes.
Will know shortly as I’m about to fit it all up
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570891093_EF301688-A5B9-49D5-B712-C3716024C3DB.png)
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It’s almost D day
Just need fuel , power and water !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1570895971_266BFDB4-5F2B-4CA3-B38B-13C7A0EBEEBA.png)
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Impressed with your ideas
I’m sure something like this would transfer more heat as it has more surface area with multiple tubes to transfer the heat
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F222626820529
I would be really interested to know what the temperature of the exhaust is after your exchanger. As it will give you an idea how much further you can go as far as removing heat from the exhaust stream
Also this is an interesting video .. https://youtu.be/a-qtbyvjNIo
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Not sure about the eBay link , it says 213c is max temp , the burn tube goes above 650c and that is where my IR Thermometer stops !
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Not sure about the eBay link , it says 213c is max temp , the burn tube goes above 650c and that is where my IR Thermometer stops !
That heat exchanger was just to give an idea what I mean but I’m sure it would work
Our burners are made of aluminium which melts at 660c. But they don’t melt Because they have water in them they will never be that hot. Or in the case of the air heater because it’s cooler by an air stream
It might be worth long term adding a thermal cut out in the exchanger as the webastos are set up. Protecting the exchanger and for safety. Think the webasto I’ve got has a 120c thermal cut out in its heat exchanger
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These air heaters have lots of failsafes , overheat , under temp , low voltage , over fuel , under fuel , motor fail , air ratio , flame out , if any parameters are broken then they shut down , they really don’t get the credit they are due !
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1571144256_0BB14AFA-9FE0-4063-B993-BA4AA36C11DF.jpeg)
Current set up
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Here’s mine , missing a big bit of it though , back in the workshop getting a further upgrade !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1571165797_4B1992B5-A3A0-4F1A-8800-61E7AC8C419D.png)
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Here’s mine , missing a big bit of it though , back in the workshop getting a further upgrade !
What’s your modification?
There is a YouTube called ‘Daved mcluckie’. His next vid is going to be what your doing. His last vid was a very rudimentary version of what I did with mine.
https://youtu.be/euU71FUOpbU
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Just watched that , Transit EGR I believe !
Mod is pulling exchanger apart to get a coil inside , original only went from 15 to 35 !
But it kept the exhaust temp right down which is good !
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Recon you will get the most heat out by using the outer water jacket as a preheater for your coils
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That’s the plan
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I’m having battery trouble a the moment though :'(
Dead as a door nail , pump and heater running ok but the van was not having it !
Don’t know whether to get a 105 numax and SCR it or just get the battery and charge it everyday
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Personally I didn’t put a vsr on my current van as I just didn’t do enough miles to make a notable difference, just connect my smart charger each night.
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That has crossed my mind too , although I have 10 mile each way before and after I don’t think it’s enough , I get home with a fully charged on float battery every day according to my solar setup app , butt once settled I reckon the bat voltage slumps , it’s almost like the alternator is sensing the charge that the solar is providing via MPPT charging and the two are conflicting thinking that the bat is charged when it’s not
After battery failure today I still got home with the solar app saying I was full and floating , I turned the solar supply off and gave it some hours to settle , I then got the mains charger on it and it has not long registered as charged , so Houston we have a problem so to speak !
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Always toyed with the idea of a SCR but ended up building my own lithium battery pack instead.
How the heater modifications coming on?
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Waiting on bits as usual !
Have added another V band at the other end of the tube exchanger now to make the whole thing fully takeapartable ;D
But more so I can install a copper coil like previous models.
My 8mm stainless pipe arrived yesterday so I’m only waiting on a 90 degree barb that sends the water from the hot end of the tube exchanger back to the start of the internal coil.
Looks like it’s coming from China though >:(
I will go with a straight out barb for now though as this first one will be mine anyway.
I could well have it fitted ready for testing by next weekend
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
Daz, please, please just please don't make statements you know nothing about - I've got a tank unto 65 degrees - hardly 'luke warm'
Darran
This bit is crap too, I run mine through a DI on the van and hot makes no difference.
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
Daz, please, please just please don't make statements you know nothing about - I've got a tank unto 65 degrees - hardly 'luke warm'
Darran
This bit is crap too, I run mine through a DI on the van and hot makes no difference.
Its an interesting assumption. Heated water shows a higher tds than the same cold water does. When that heated water cools back down the tds goes back to its original figure. So you can understand why someone would automatically conclude that you will use more resin processing hot water.
But its still the same water. Heating it hasn't changed the tds.
Chopsie put up a link on this site a couple of years ago to a tds meter that compensates for water temps.
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=210561.0
You also reported on that link it hasn't effected your resin usage. You mentioned this some 2 years ago and as your conclusion is still the same with added experience, we must deduce that hot water doesn't effect the resin beads at the temps windies use.
I've just looked this up. It was what Doug Atkinson posted many years ago with regard to Tulsion MB115 resin, but he didn't say anything about the temperatures.
"Tulsion MB-115 is a mixture of strongly acidic cation exchange resin Tulsion T-46in Hydrogen form and strongly basic type I anion exchanger resin Tulsion A-33in Hydroxide form in 1:1.5 volume ratio quantities."
Tulsion T resin remains stable up to a maximum temperature of 120 degrees C.
Tulsion A resin remains stable up to a maximum temperature of 80 degrees C.
So hot water through Tulsion MB115 resin needs to be lower than 80 degrees C.
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https://youtu.be/yyF2I6iZxd4
P@f notice he said as I found. You couldn’t make a heat exchanger cheaper than you could buy a used EGR cooler.
Welding straight to the steel burn chamber was a good point made 2
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Am I missing something you can buy the whole webasto kit to do this for 1000
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Am I missing something you can buy the whole webasto kit to do this for 1000
Yeah but he just did it for £139 !
Primitive like my first attempt but he did it !
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Don’t worry, the last piece arrived today .
It’s all go now , £2.50 a day in diesel and only 4 amps per hour worked for heater and pump combined ;D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1571776109_40060E21-19C6-4A96-A60A-59F6D01AA215.png)
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theres nothing on the hot wfp market apart from a professionally fitted diesel heater if you want hot water on tap all day long.....
1.gas heaters are not reliable and can be dangerous....(not worth the risk)
2.immersion heaters are good for frost protection but not viable for proper hot water on tap all day long(luke warm at best)....
3.filling up from a hot water tap at home is not viable option either....(same as an immersion)....and can severely deplete resin prematurely running hot water through your vessels...
4.DIY diesel heaters are only for DIY competent guys(im not!)and even then theres usually a lot of faffing about and reliability/safety has not been proved....
Daz, please, please just please don't make statements you know nothing about - I've got a tank unto 65 degrees - hardly 'luke warm'
Darran
This bit is crap too, I run mine through a DI on the van and hot makes no difference.
thanks for clarifying this......it might help a few cold water guys out who are DI only this winter..... :)
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God help us us when vans become electric in the future
we ll all be dead by then so i wouldnt worry about it..... ;D
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Be handy for tapping off for heaters and pumps though eh ?
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Hi
I know its slightly off topic,
But before you dismantled you heater, did you notice if comes with a frost stat? Or can be programmed to fire up when below a certain temperature?
Thanks
Alex
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It doesn’t come as standard with the usual controller , but there is an aftermarket controller that does all manner of stuff including what you ask .
It’s called “Afterburner “ and I think it sells for about £70
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Here they come chaps ;D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1573853182_613CD6D2-D392-4960-8AAB-888426E0B64A.png)
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So when are you sending me one out! Money’s waiting!
Looks good though mate 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
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I’m fitting mine up tomorrow , have to change the whole van as I have gone from horizontal to vertical with the design , it’s had a few weeks of long run bench testing so far but this doesn’t give a true measure of heat capability unless it is connected to a full system and reel full of hose , looking promising so far though.
The cost has risen a fair bit though as it’s now in full double skin stainless, what I built the complete original model for 12 months ago is what it’s costing in parts and labour for the heat exchanger alone !
It’s still looking at being a quarter of the cost of the other diesels though ,
Nice new full ally frame though , not like the cheapie in the pic ;D
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Sounds good!
What’s the cost looking like? I’ll be first to buy once you’re ready mate (bare in mind winter is fast approaching)
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This can only mean one thing. ;D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1574028020_935244AC-BBF9-4B95-93A6-BF4B7F464C55.png)
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it broke ???
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No , but I feel some glass may well do tomorrow, MK3 is a serious kick arse machine , ;D :D ;D
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The magic number !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1574078996_64D69051-8A0F-4E79-AC8E-22E4C81C9264.png)
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Yea 👏👊
So after further testings, do we get some figures for us kean buyers....production time, waiting time n prices......oh and a very simple diagram how to connect up
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It doesn’t come as standard with the usual controller , but there is an aftermarket controller that does all manner of stuff including what you ask .
It’s called “Afterburner “ and I think it sells for about £70
Thanks for the info.
I have had a look around but can't find where they are sold. I have emailed the guy who makes it but he hasn't replied.
Can you point me in the right direction please.
Also, I may have missed it from the thread, what's the fuel consumption per hour and do you have to keep it running all day?
Thanks
Alex
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It doesn’t come as standard with the usual controller , but there is an aftermarket controller that does all manner of stuff including what you ask .
It’s called “Afterburner “ and I think it sells for about £70
Thanks for the info.
I have had a look around but can't find where they are sold. I have emailed the guy who makes it but he hasn't replied.
Can you point me in the right direction please.
Also, I may have missed it from the thread, what's the fuel consumption per hour and do you have to keep it running all day?
Thanks
Alex
They use about 400ml of fuel per hour at full power it has to run all the time to get hot water , or until the tank water temp rises enough to switch it off , but that is normally at the end of the day !
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The magic number !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1574078996_64D69051-8A0F-4E79-AC8E-22E4C81C9264.png)
Ime sure all heaters will produce 60 degrees with a foot of hose off the reel when you get 100 meters down the road it will be a bit less ,
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That 60 was direct from heater after 3 hours running ,
First thing today with a 15 feed I was getting 35/40 at the brush head with about 75m or abouts off the reel , which I feel is more than enough to start the day, I don’t want to break any glass do I !
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Alex I will see what I can do about the afterburners, I know a man that knows THE man ;D
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That 60 was direct from heater after 3 hours running ,
First thing today with a 15 feed I was getting 35/40 at the brush head with about 75m or abouts off the reel , which I feel is more than enough to start the day, I don’t want to break any glass do I !
Yes mate, anything is better than 3 or 4 degree water!
As Nathan said, what’s the cost looking like? How far off are you on sending them out, we’re waiting!
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I could start production tomorrow to be honest , my fabricator is waiting to go
I just need to road test mine a little bit more
Few little bits are to be changed as well to make it easier and cheaper to produce as it will need less bits from less companies
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That 60 was direct from heater after 3 hours running ,
First thing today with a 15 feed I was getting 35/40 at the brush head with about 75m or abouts off the reel , which I feel is more than enough to start the day, I don’t want to break any glass do I !
You won’t break any glass at those temperatures that’s for sure , unless it’s already damaged we have been using 60+ degrees at the brush in winter for over 5 years with 50 meters of hose out , with 100 it’s a bit less and only ever cracked 2 one was already damaged with a big chip the other was a new pain of glass that had been overpacked by the installers and they said that it would have cracked with sun on it due to the faulty way it was fitted , we do sometimes turn the heat down but generally don’t bother
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I can still go a bit higher yet , I run at 5 Hz but can go up to 5.5 Hz , in fact you can go to 8 Hz but that is meant to be for the 8Kw model , the 5Kw glow plugs don’t like it as I found out ;D
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is that at full flow rate?
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you dont want the water to be higher than 30-40c at brush head in this weather anyway...with 100m off your reel you lose a fair bit of heat on frosty/freezing ground......
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is that at full flow rate?
All my figures are based on no higher than 2 LPM coming from Gardiner red fan jet pods
If anybody is a 5 LPM merchant then a 9 Kw Grippa is the way to go
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Alex I will see what I can do about the afterburners, I know a man that knows THE man ;D
And that makes you a gentleman.
I bought the 8kw one for heating the van on winter nights. £110 for a heater or £100 for a new boiler, no brainier really.
Have lost 4 boilers over the years due to freezing.
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4 boilers wow ;D
Daz went through a couple , but he used them to blow his eyelids off ;D
Got my man on the case , will know shortly @ Alex W. !!!
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Alex , how are you getting on with your heater, any problems?
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Alex , the wheels are in motion !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1574115183_61454A2E-A469-482D-AA69-4B1CC24B1290.png)
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I could start production tomorrow to be honest , my fabricator is waiting to go
I just need to road test mine a little bit more
Few little bits are to be changed as well to make it easier and cheaper to produce as it will need less bits from less companies
The money is waiting mate!
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Alex I will see what I can do about the afterburners, I know a man that knows THE man ;D
And that makes you a gentleman.
I bought the 8kw one for heating the van on winter nights. £110 for a heater or £100 for a new boiler, no brainier really.
Have lost 4 boilers over the years due to freezing.
Alex, wasn't it you who put a photo up quite a few years ago now with three tankless gas heaters on your front bulkhead feeding into a single exhaust vent through the roof? (One each for the operators and a spare?)
If it was I often wondered how it went. I did look for the photo once but couldn't find it.
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I have turned my burner down to minimum and tbh in some rural areas it would still be to hot for a lot of windows.
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rich how are you going to vent the heater?obviously you ll need the exhaust to be through the floor ideally...
personally i think your asking for trouble if your going to sell a cobbled together cheap chinese heater to other window cleaners.id stick to keeping it for yourself,that way if it blows up or catches fire then you ve only got yourself to blame......
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I have turned my burner down to minimum and tbh in some rural areas it would still be to hot for a lot of windows.
i run mine on full power all year round summer or winter.......its not advised to run these heaters on min settings(according to the manual i got from grippatank).....
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rich how are you going to vent the heater?obviously you ll need the exhaust to be through the floor ideally...
personally i think your asking for trouble if your going to sell a cobbled together cheap chinese heater to other window cleaners.id stick to keeping it for yourself,that way if it blows up or catches fire then you ve only got yourself to blame......
He can sell it without excepting liability Daz.
Come on now, don’t get all jealous just because you spend £950 million on a grippa tank one!
😜
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I need to contact them mines due a service it would be too hot the water to run it full power,it’s cold or minimum at the moment the way it was first thing this morning
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I have turned my burner down to minimum and tbh in some rural areas it would still be to hot for a lot of windows.
i run mine on full power all year round summer or winter.......its not advised to run these heaters on min settings(according to the manual i got from grippatank).....
You sure about that one Daz?
I don’t think that’s in my manual.
The only recommendation I saw in the manual was that they don’t recommend turning the valves all the way down if you want cold water, and keeping the heater running.
If I ran mine on full blast I’d have 70 degree water even with 50 metres of hose out even first thing in the morning.
The valves are very adjustable, so Mayb yours is just set lower than mine already,
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rich how are you going to vent the heater?obviously you ll need the exhaust to be through the floor ideally...
personally i think your asking for trouble if your going to sell a cobbled together cheap chinese heater to other window cleaners.id stick to keeping it for yourself,that way if it blows up or catches fire then you ve only got yourself to blame......
He can sell it without excepting liability Daz.
Come on now, don’t get all jealous just because you spend £950 million on a grippa tank one!
😜
why would i be jealous?seriously?ive already got a professionally fitted system mate....had it 2 years now.......
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I need to contact them mines due a service it would be too hot the water to run it full power,it’s cold or minimum at the moment the way it was first thing this morning
do you have another pump returning hot water back to the tank continously?mine doesnt so this could be why....mines still hot but around 40c at brush head with hose out on a frosty morning which is fine...i dont want it hotter than that....in summer its more like 55c-65c on a warm day(this is on full power setting all year round)
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I have turned my burner down to minimum and tbh in some rural areas it would still be to hot for a lot of windows.
i run mine on full power all year round summer or winter.......its not advised to run these heaters on min settings(according to the manual i got from grippatank).....
You sure about that one Daz?
I don’t think that’s in my manual.
The only recommendation I saw in the manual was that they don’t recommend turning the valves all the way down if you want cold water, and keeping the heater running.
If I ran mine on full blast I’d have 70 degree water even with 50 metres of hose out even first thing in the morning.
The valves are very adjustable, so Mayb yours is just set lower than mine already,
oliver told me the best way to run these heaters is on full whack all day every day with min shut downs........i dont touch the dial,i just leave it on full heat setting all the time.....
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Daz , you really don’t like anything Chinese do you ;D
It may be a cheap heater but it works in exactly the same manner that yours does , little drips of diesel fall onto the glow plug /screen , if a unit should catch fire the first thing to go would be the circuit board, this would cause immediate shut down including the fuel pump !
Everything else is metal apart from the heater casing which funnily enough is heat proof !
With regard to the exhaust , that has always exited through the van floor , again the same as yours!
The little bit of fume escape I had on early models has been addressed with the use of V bands , CNC machined for a perfect seal , they use these on vehicle turbos which leakage would not be acceptable!
So the only real difference is a massive price variation and the fact that yours is ( Pro fitted ) ;D
Water in water out , diesel in fumes out , power in , it isn’t rocket science mate
I do think the way you see things is that if it doesn’t cost a lot it’s rubbish
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Don’t forget that what I have built over the last 12 months has been done on a shoe string and I am well proud of what I have achieved with so little.
Would I have punted out the early models to other window cleaners ?
Definitely NOT as they were not ready .
Would I sell the latest one , YES ;D
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Your heater doesn’t run like mine or Jonnys Daz my water with hose out is very very hot even on cold ground m8,if I ran my heater like you I’d be glazing windows not cleaning em even on the lowest setting it’s still steaming on the glass
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Alex I will see what I can do about the afterburners, I know a man that knows THE man ;D
And that makes you a gentleman.
I bought the 8kw one for heating the van on winter nights. £110 for a heater or £100 for a new boiler, no brainier really.
Have lost 4 boilers over the years due to freezing.
Alex, wasn't it you who put a photo up quite a few years ago now with three tankless gas heaters on your front bulkhead feeding into a single exhaust vent through the roof? (One each for the operators and a spare?)
If it was I often wondered how it went. I did look for the photo once but couldn't find it.
Hello Spruce, long time no speak, yes that was me, and here are the pics.
I used it a few times when we were doing some commercial projects that needed 3 heaters but it soon became obsolete, but was useful when 1 broke due to the cold weather and the ice cracking the manifold.
I now have two, so had to change the design a little, most of the fumes goes up the flue, but these heaters where never designed to be a perfect exhaust solution, so I still get a bit of water on the inside of the van. I have tried using aluminium tape to tape up the little vents, but it seems to affect the way the heater works.
I upgraded the hose from those pictures to copper pipe as the water comes out too hot for John Guest fittings and would often warp and blow up. Hep20 although being expensive has been a good investment and hasn't leaked once.
The only problem I have with gas, is filling up with LPG, its not a plentiful as diesel so I have to plan ahead.
For me I won't be changing over to diesel as I have spent too much money on gas, with the heaters, fittings and the gas bottles, but I think if I were starting over I would go for the diesel option.
My next project which I have almost finished is a little programmable box, that will enable me to Rinse, auto flush and control a booster pump and UV light all from one button. Ill post the pics and details when I have finished. But it will remove the waiting around and plugging things if you use a van filling system, and will prolong the use of resin as it will stop the first few litres of pure water from going through the resin bottles.
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Alex , how are you getting on with your heater, any problems?
Thanks mate, looking forward to hearing back from your mate.
Eventually, they run without issue, they start first thing in the morning and run all day every day. I find the 8l one provides the best power output.
I have now added drainage taps before the boiler to let air in, after the boiler to let the water out, and just before the hose to get as much water out if its going to be a cold night.
Also designing something with solenoids to do it automatically so when the temp drops below 2deg it will automatically open the solenoids and the water can drain out. That combined with the heater should save me from problems
But its taken me a few years to get to this stage, I think I have bought about 10 over the years, dread to think about how much I have spent.
From the first L5 to the ones I have now, much be about 8-10 in total?
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Your heater doesn’t run like mine or Jonnys Daz my water with hose out is very very hot even on cold ground m8,if I ran my heater like you I’d be glazing windows not cleaning em even on the lowest setting it’s still steaming on the glass
well theres something wrong there mate...it shouldnt be getting that hot...the last thing you want to be doing is cracking panes in the cold weather...theres hot and theres TOO HOT!i think your mixer valve needs looking at......
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or yours Daz ??? :-\
Darran
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Don’t forget that what I have built over the last 12 months has been done on a shoe string and I am well proud of what I have achieved with so little.
Would I have punted out the early models to other window cleaners ?
Definitely NOT as they were not ready .
Would I sell the latest one , YES ;D
in that case just make sure you write SOLD AS SEEN on their receipt mate to cover your arse!(just in case) ;D ;D ;D
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or yours Daz ??? :-\
Darran
mines working like it should...oliver told me what temperature to expect at brush end at various ambient air temperatures with hose out and he s bang on.......
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but I'd rather have nigels and johnny's who get hotter water and cn turn it down to running at max all the time ... just saying
Darran
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but I'd rather have nigels and johnny's who get hotter water and cn turn it down to running at max all the time ... just saying
Darran
^^^^^^^^^
This is right Daz.
In the winter it’s still Good to have the option of piping hot water for facia cleans, conservatories etc.
It sounds like You don’t have That option.
I reckon your mixer valve is set on the low side.
If it works for you then that’s all that matters though.
Remember this is a 2MAN system. The 9kw is capable of giving two users very hot water.
If your using it as a one man system and the max your getting is 40 degrees output, then I’d definitely say your valve is set on the low side.
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coiled up hose all year round....60-65c at brush head
hose out on a hot day.....60-65c at brush head
hose out on a very cold day(freezing ground)30-40c.......
dont forget there can be as much as a 30c heat loss with 100m off your reel in winter
jonny mines a 1 man system not a 2 man.......i dont have a spare pump sending water back to the tank all day like you...thats why your getting very,very high temperatures at brush head even in winter with hose out.....IMO your asking for trouble(thermal shock)if you have your water too hot at this time of year....
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Forget all this hose out nonsense Daz regardless m8 all out all in my water is piping,I don’t mind I love it I just turn it down it’s fine then.
I’m not saying anything to provoke an argument but it sounds to me that your factory set is lower then mine and jonnys,I told Oliver I wanted nine as hot as possible.
I couldn’t possibly use mine on the hottest setting at the mo I cracked a pane in the middle of summer,like smudger said it’s great to have the option for facia cleans etc it melts the most stubborn stuff off with ease,40 degree sounds like 5kw territory
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That’s pretty much right saying 40 is 5Kw territory, on demand from my last model with start temp of 10/15 that’s what I was getting before the recirculating took effect.
Will be doing tests today as most of the hose will be out on the deck , I just hope that it beats the last model else I have gone backwards ;D
Daz , are you sure you haven’t gotten a 5 instead of a 9 by mistake :D ;D
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I put water in to a bucket this morning for a few doors we do trad,literally couldn’t put your hand in it.
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Right now I am getting 55 out of the heater , once I am done at the back of this house with about 50m out I will take brush temp , that’s the important figure after all !
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Just had it drop to 38 at brush head , so a loss of 17 over 50 m
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Just had it drop to 38 at brush head , so a loss of 17 over 50 m
Whats it like with the flow turned higher?
When im using the immersion, i found the higher the flow the more the temp was similar at the brush end.
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coiled up hose all year round....60-65c at brush head
hose out on a hot day.....60-65c at brush head
hose out on a very cold day(freezing ground)30-40c.......
dont forget there can be as much as a 30c heat loss with 100m off your reel in winter
jonny mines a 1 man system not a 2 man.......i dont have a spare pump sending water back to the tank all day like you...thats why your getting very,very high temperatures at brush head even in winter with hose out.....IMO your asking for trouble(thermal shock)if you have your water too hot at this time of year....
Your missing the point Daz....... you have a 9kw heater. That’s a 2 man heater. It’s capable of giving two reels VERY hot water.
So what would happen if you ran a second pump
And reel like the 9kw is designed for? That 40 degree output would probably half, and both reels would be luke warm at best.
That’s what I mean by saying yours is running colder than standard.
I can adjust mine to warm at the brush head, about 35 degree, all the way up to 60 plus at the brush head even when it’s ice cold outside and first thing in a morning.
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His water should be a lot hotter than 40 at the brush that’s the sort of reading I was getting with the 5kw when working flat out,when I returned water to tank with that other heater and then started working again it would produce similar temperatures to the 9kw does when on a minimum setting.
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Working with 2 reels shouldn’t make any difference really you are working off the other side of the cabinet and the water is still taking the same path through heat exchangers etc.
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Just had it drop to 38 at brush head , so a loss of 17 over 50 m
thats normal richy.........it can be as much as a 30c drop with 100m out on a very cold morning....
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coiled up hose all year round....60-65c at brush head
hose out on a hot day.....60-65c at brush head
hose out on a very cold day(freezing ground)30-40c.......
dont forget there can be as much as a 30c heat loss with 100m off your reel in winter
jonny mines a 1 man system not a 2 man.......i dont have a spare pump sending water back to the tank all day like you...thats why your getting very,very high temperatures at brush head even in winter with hose out.....IMO your asking for trouble(thermal shock)if you have your water too hot at this time of year....
Your missing the point Daz....... you have a 9kw heater. That’s a 2 man heater. It’s capable of giving two reels VERY hot water.
So what would happen if you ran a second pump
And reel like the 9kw is designed for? That 40 degree output would probably half, and both reels would be luke warm at best.
That’s what I mean by saying yours is running colder than standard.
I can adjust mine to warm at the brush head, about 35 degree, all the way up to 60 plus at the brush head even when it’s ice cold outside and first thing in a morning.
when oliver fitted the heater he told me the temperatures would be 60c+ at the brush head in summer with or without hose out and as low as 30c-40c with 100m out on freezing ground in the winter....a lot of heat is lost from the hose on a cold day....and thats been my findings.... :)
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Forget all this hose out nonsense Daz regardless m8 all out all in my water is piping,I don’t mind I love it I just turn it down it’s fine then.
I’m not saying anything to provoke an argument but it sounds to me that your factory set is lower then mine and jonnys,I told Oliver I wanted nine as hot as possible.
I couldn’t possibly use mine on the hottest setting at the mo I cracked a pane in the middle of summer,like smudger said it’s great to have the option for facia cleans etc it melts the most stubborn stuff off with ease,40 degree sounds like 5kw territory
im very happy with mine......its a thermo pro 90......who the hell wants pure water that hot you crack panes in the middle of summer? ::)roll..its laughable...
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No worries Daz but I like to be able to get it that hot for PVC cleans etc,like I say if you are running yours flat out at the moment or for anytime for that matter I’d say the mixer valve has a pin in it not letting it work to its full heat.
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most UPVC jobs i do are cleaned in the warmer months.....60c+ is plenty hot enough to make a difference.....but in winter on a cold day i dont want 60c+ at brush head with all my hose out...id be worried about cracking glass. ::)roll ;D
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I reckon grippa put the wrong label on the box Daz, in fairness your barely getting water any warmer than an immersion heater ;D
Darran
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I reckon grippa put the wrong label on the box Daz, in fairness your barely getting water any warmer than an immersion heater ;D
Darran
you must be joking!have you ever tried to putting your hand under 60c+ water and keeping it there?itll scold you...... ;D...you dont need water hotter than that for any cleaning.......on a freezing cold day then your asking for trouble IMO......
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but your only getting 30 at the brush in winter........
Darran
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Must be a cheap Chinese copy in your cabinet Daz ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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You won’t have trouble getting water that hot with it all coiled on the reel,you want the option of having it that hot with nearly all of it out the van.
Have you got 100 meter long pole hose lol
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Daz, your needle valve is just set on the low side.
That’s all it will be. If it’s a perfect temperature for you though, just leave it as it is.
The optimal position though is to be able to adjust from warm - piping hot. That gives you the most variability. I wouldn’t be happy if my max was 30 degrees in winter. That might be what I normally use in winter, but I also like The option to go hotter.
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Alex , the wheels are in motion !
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1574115183_61454A2E-A469-482D-AA69-4B1CC24B1290.png)
Hey Rich
Any news on this?
Thanks
Alex
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He’s gone underground mate by the looks of it ???
I have tried all 3 heater forums and nobody has a clue what he’s doing , or where he is ???
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richy will you be integrating your heaters fuel supply into your vans diesel tank? or will you have a separate tank in the back?
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I have had it like this for 12 months nearly now , leaving it that way as I will be running red soon , even cheaper than cheap ;D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1574413041_04BBE9EE-FCDA-4562-8B1F-9088F900641F.png)
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He’s gone underground mate by the looks of it ???
I have tried all 3 heater forums and nobody has a clue what he’s doing , or where he is ???
Oh no, well thanks for trying, thankfully it doesn't look like the frost will be here for at least another two weeks
Alex
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That’s how I did mine with a separate fuel tank on the 5kw I had in the end,if anyone wants to get a diesel heater just try finding a cabinet you can buy all the kit for around a 1000 from Webasto.
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What would you get for that 1000 , it can’t be all that’s needed surely ?
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For between 1-1200 quid you can buy everything you need to run a 5kw heater,the only other thing you’ll need to buy is a frost stat controller.
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I always thought it was more than that !
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For between 1-1200 quid you can buy everything you need to run a 5kw heater,the only other thing you’ll need to buy is a frost stat controller.
If you have a trade account you can get everything to build a 9kw two man system for £1000-1200 maximum , a friend if mine is a marine electrician and he priced all the bits up and that’s what he could get it for ,obviously you would have to assemble it and have a cabinet of some sort , that’s using all branded products not cheap foreign copies , and that’s not a dig at at Chinese stuff , trade prices are considerably cheaper than buying as a member of the public .
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But it’s getting that trade price that’s the problem!
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I built what I built as I’m governed by weight and power needs of the 9kw , I could have gone with the thermotop c , but again I am getting the same results if not better from my China special , plus I know it inside out having built it myself ;D
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I purchased the kit myself it was just over 1000 you need a cabinet yes really but that’s how much you can get the kit for.
We used to joke that other suppliers are charging 2500 for a cabinet.
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Dont forget you ve got a metal cabinet, 2 decent batteries and boxes,smart split charge relay kit and electronic unit,a commercial battery charger,a digital controller with frost stat on top of that.......plus fitting and the extra bits needed to integrate into the fuel sender on top of your vans diesel tank......then theres the fitting and labour costs(drilling through the van floor for the exhaust and vent pipes.etc)..also £750 of the 4.5k I paid was VAT!
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If you buy a heater in a cabinet fitted from a few companies that supply them you are paying for that alone,you don’t get a split charge relay and 2 batteries with it you have to pay for them.
Anyone wishing to go hot will more often than not have all of what you mentioned but maybe they’ll only have the 1 battery,they will only have to purchase the kit from Webasto and either a Grippa controller or one from stream which is called a frost stat controller,I purchased this kit so I know you can buy it for that price.
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And that is what puts people off doing it themselves !
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If you can get a cabinet and you are half decent a DIY it’s not that hard to do.
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If you can get a cabinet and you are half decent a DIY it’s not that hard to do.
if its that easy nigel why did you go for a professionally fitted system then?
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I wanted a 9kw for 1 I wanted to spend some money on equipment for 2 and I got fed up with the smell of diesel from using a separate tank inside the van.
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How about this? ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38ZoLl3TYcE
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How about this? ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38ZoLl3TYcE
That is good !
Thing is how many would you need for a 350 tank , and what ampage does a single glow plug draw ?
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How about this? ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38ZoLl3TYcE
That is good !
Thing is how many would you need for a 350 tank , and what ampage does a single glow plug draw ?
Pending on the ampage and time taken to heat given litres of water, might be interesting. Use a 50ltr draw tank from main tank and have several dotted about in the tank to give a good mix.
;D ;D
Or not ;D ;D ;D
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How about this? ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38ZoLl3TYcE
That is good !
Thing is how many would you need for a 350 tank , and what ampage does a single glow plug draw ?
You would be talking around 13amps per 150w glow plug,
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So you would need a few batteries then ;D
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Now I can get some real results , this is for the temp as it enters the reel
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575125545_2D48043E-D098-4C81-97FD-C3DF191165E5.png)
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Now I can get some real results , this is for the temp as it enters the reel
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575125545_2D48043E-D098-4C81-97FD-C3DF191165E5.png)
Better getting the temp when it leaves the reel😜
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Yes but that is easily done with the TDS meter , what I wanted was to get the water temp during real use , as I was doing it I was opening up a valve within the middle of the system which changed pressures and flow rates .
I plan to get bottom of tank temp and entry to reel temp , in fact I could get a few others too !
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Now where shall I put these :D
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575126982_0FE02F99-EF63-4FAD-A702-2459B0F5FF40.png)
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As I thought , different pressure and flow rates give higher temps .
This is with the water diverting straight back to tank
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575136535_3303DE9F-50A6-4501-9DE2-51CD3363712F.png)
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And this is with the pole in normal use , more restrictions give an extra 5 Celsius!
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575136673_B6B4CE9F-8A63-4EDA-932D-3CE4CC8CFD8C.png)
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Hi Rich
What is this connection called, the one that comes out of the heater?
Would it be possible to connect a 90deg elbow and then run through the heat exchanger?
Are you thinking of selling your design or can I plug you for more information?
Thanks
Alex
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Alex , you can ask anything you want , anybody can buy the bits , putting it together is the hard bit due to all the stainless welding needed !
The bit in the heater is called a V Band
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575141956_2945908A-015B-446E-9E6C-8D951912200E.png)
You lost me with the elbow bit mate
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Alex , why do you want a 90 degree elbow anyway ?
You can just turn the heater the other way !
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Hi Rich, have you got a link for those thermometers please? I was thinking of buying some.
Thanks..
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?
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Can’t link it , just search digital thermometer on eBay , half way down first page
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1575147874_00408035-575F-4B87-856A-A879E791CA4F.png)
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Hi Rich
Thanks for sharing
Ok. 90Deg.
I currently have my heater, under the passenger seat, and then a hole through the metal work up through the bulk head into the van, to keep it from freezing.
However, with your invention, I can use it to heat the water in the tank over night, and then it will act as a radiator, killing two birds with one stone.
So I need to 90deg so that I can have the heat exchanger behind the seats that way it takes up no room, and means I dont have to rearrange anything.
So I would need a to come out of the burner, for 200mm then elbow then use the VBand to connect to the heat exchanger.
So I have a few questions. Do you feed the water in the top barb and then out the second the lower one?
Is the hole at the bottom of the chamber the exhaust?
How do you vent it? How have managed to seal it?
How to do you seal the bottom where the copper pipe goes in and the exhaust gasses come out?
Could you modify it use Hep20 fittings?
What is the SS you are using?
What should I look for when finding someone to weld it?
Sorry to bombard you, I want to have a full grasp of things before I start
Thanks
Alex
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The trouble is that the 90 would be big money to make , it would need to be 52 mm at the heater end , welded straight onto the burner itself then the other end would need to be stretched out to 57mm to have the V band fitted , then the heat exchanger would be added , all well and good but the 90 bend would be wide open and be 600*c , most of the heat would not get to benefit the exchanger and you would have glowing red steel waiting to set the van on fire !
I would have a rethink mate !!
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Ok ! Thanks for that.
Good luck with your ongoing heater build.
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Ok ! Thanks for that.
Good luck with your ongoing heater build.
Cheers , I would say it’s pretty much ready to get some out , it’s just a case of getting the cost sorted now !
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Ok ! Thanks for that.
Good luck with your ongoing heater build.
Cheers , I would say it’s pretty much ready to get some out , it’s just a case of getting the cost sorted now !
Sort the price out when your feeling generous lol :D ;D
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I will just wait for you to sell the parts then.
Is there a way you could make the outlets 15mm bsp thread? To attack some Hep fittings?
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Well it’s been a while since I’ve been on clean it up. And thought I would check out the post that was for me (see first post) only to find it’s died a death.
Anyone else with DIY heater set ups going well? I upgraded mine to 2 man. Not sure if I posted that. Tried waste oil blends in a webasto and for anyone that’s interested they don’t like it
Started messing with ardiunos. And tempted to learn some code that can allow my pump to run at a slower flow and back to the tank when the water isn’t flowing out the pole. Therefore keeping the heater running on only idle and boosting efficiency.
If anyone sees this that’s very DIY. Has anyone done an ardiuno RO automation. It could turn on filters. Give a low temp warning. TDS warnings. Filter change reminders. RO flushing. Wonder what else could be useful. Found some code for the basic RO shut off and pump control but not the added features.
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Well it’s been a while since I’ve been on clean it up. And thought I would check out the post that was for me (see first post) only to find it’s died a death.
Anyone else with DIY heater set ups going well? I upgraded mine to 2 man. Not sure if I posted that. Tried waste oil blends in a webasto and for anyone that’s interested they don’t like it
Started messing with ardiunos. And tempted to learn some code that can allow my pump to run at a slower flow and back to the tank when the water isn’t flowing out the pole. Therefore keeping the heater running on only idle and boosting efficiency.
If anyone sees this that’s very DIY. Has anyone done an ardiuno RO automation. It could turn on filters. Give a low temp warning. TDS warnings. Filter change reminders. RO flushing. Wonder what else could be useful. Found some code for the basic RO shut off and pump control but not the added features.
I recently started playing with ESP8266 as they are very cheap - can be used in Arduino development environment and have wifi built in. I am playing with basic RO automation at moment. I would be interested to see the basic code you found, do you have a link? While the wifi works as it runs a web server it does need hard coding with network name and password. It's quite easy to play with as using a web server means commands are fairly easy to do using html forms. Not sure if I'm going to go down the bluetooth route (there are bluetooth version of the ESP8266 that has wifi and bluetooth for about £4!!!) Then it will be app controlled..
Anyway I would be interested in your findings so far.
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I’m very very new to the coding world. So I’m trying to understand the code I’ve found. Some of it make sense some not so much.
https://github.com/linuxkidd/arduino-ro-control
Don’t have any code for a heater idle circuit. I’m hoping that learning through other peoples work or collaborations that I can get it together.
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I’m very very new to the coding world. So I’m trying to understand the code I’ve found. Some of it make sense some not so much.
https://github.com/linuxkidd/arduino-ro-control
Don’t have any code for a heater idle circuit. I’m hoping that learning through other peoples work or collaborations that I can get it together.
Just had a very quick look through the example you linked to. It doesn't really do much other than start a pump when the tank level drops and gives you a display.
I have a fair bit of coding experience but not in C or C++ (the language that arduino type micro controllers use) . It's not that different but I am just starting to play with it.
I was intending to have 2 or 3 solenoid valves - water in, waste flush and maybe divert RO out to drain while flushing to reduce high tds getting into resin. Plus a tank level float switch. So press start button if tank level low - inlet and flush opens for say 2 mins. Then shut flush and turn on pump. That was my basic system.
Arduino type code is a bit weird to me as normally code is sequential so you run through it once and that's it. Arduino code is a loop so it keeps going round and round, so you have to have switch variables to control loops a bit more. As I said I am only just starting to have a go. I bought a couple of ESP 8266 from Amazon at about £8 for the pair - they are even usb powered so updating code nice and easy. Then I bought a relay board again about £8 and a 'starter kit' which contained a bread board, switches, resistors, leds etc. This enables you to push components and wires into the breadboard without soldering, so it's quick and easy for prototyping.
By all means send me a PM.
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Well it’s been a while since I’ve been on clean it up. And thought I would check out the post that was for me (see first post) only to find it’s died a death.
Anyone else with DIY heater set ups going well? I upgraded mine to 2 man. Not sure if I posted that. Tried waste oil blends in a webasto and for anyone that’s interested they don’t like it
Started messing with ardiunos. And tempted to learn some code that can allow my pump to run at a slower flow and back to the tank when the water isn’t flowing out the pole. Therefore keeping the heater running on only idle and boosting efficiency.
If anyone sees this that’s very DIY. Has anyone done an ardiuno RO automation. It could turn on filters. Give a low temp warning. TDS warnings. Filter change reminders. RO flushing. Wonder what else could be useful. Found some code for the basic RO shut off and pump control but not the added features.
Just add a 3rd heat exchanger before your header tank. A small 22kw works fine. Add an additional Shurflo pump, a 40amp (continuous rating of 8 amps) PWM controller and 12v digital temp controller that has a cooling function.
You know your Thermo 90 goes into reduced heat mode when it reaches 72ºC. The combustion air motor speed and fuel pump delivery are reduced. The coolant temperature will continue to rise slower by another 10 degrees C, "the heater will then automatically stop combustion, fuel delivery will cease and the flame within the combustion chamber will be extinguished. The heater will then commence a 180 purge cycle.
The heater is now in stand-by mode. The green operation light will still be illuminated and the water pump will continue to circulate the hot water. The heater will automatically restart if the water temperature falls by 15 C, going through the same start cycle as before." (taken from the manual.)
So you set your digital temperature controller to kick on your Shurflo pump at 80 degrees. This pump draws cold water from the tank and pumps it through the 3rd heat exchanger and dumps it back into the tank. Set the controller to switch off the pump at 74 degrees C. It will then keep the heater from switching into stand by mode. You can regulate the speed of the pump with the PWM controller to reduce that heat more gradually.
You will have to add a small section of copper 22mm pipe into the hose to the third heat exchanger for the temperature controllers temp probe.
-
Well it’s been a while since I’ve been on clean it up. And thought I would check out the post that was for me (see first post) only to find it’s died a death.
Anyone else with DIY heater set ups going well? I upgraded mine to 2 man. Not sure if I posted that. Tried waste oil blends in a webasto and for anyone that’s interested they don’t like it
Started messing with ardiunos. And tempted to learn some code that can allow my pump to run at a slower flow and back to the tank when the water isn’t flowing out the pole. Therefore keeping the heater running on only idle and boosting efficiency.
If anyone sees this that’s very DIY. Has anyone done an ardiuno RO automation. It could turn on filters. Give a low temp warning. TDS warnings. Filter change reminders. RO flushing. Wonder what else could be useful. Found some code for the basic RO shut off and pump control but not the added features.
Just add a 3rd heat exchanger before your header tank. A small 22kw works fine. Add an additional Shurflo pump, a 40amp (continuous rating of 8 amps) PWM controller and 12v digital temp controller that has a cooling function.
You know your Thermo 90 goes into reduced heat mode when it reaches 72ºC. The combustion air motor speed and fuel pump delivery are reduced. The coolant temperature will continue to rise slower by another 10 degrees C, "the heater will then automatically stop combustion, fuel delivery will cease and the flame within the combustion chamber will be extinguished. The heater will then commence a 180 purge cycle.
The heater is now in stand-by mode. The green operation light will still be illuminated and the water pump will continue to circulate the hot water. The heater will automatically restart if the water temperature falls by 15 C, going through the same start cycle as before." (taken from the manual.)
So you set your digital temperature controller to kick on your Shurflo pump at 80 degrees. This pump draws cold water from the tank and pumps it through the 3rd heat exchanger and dumps it back into the tank. Set the controller to switch off the pump at 74 degrees C. It will then keep the heater from switching into stand by mode. You can regulate the speed of the pump with the PWM controller to reduce that heat more gradually.
You will have to add a small section of copper 22mm pipe into the hose to the third heat exchanger for the temperature controllers temp probe.
Defo a more simple option.
With my set up I’ve added an egr heat exchanger into the exhaust. It’s been preheating the water for about a year now. So I need constant water flow through this exchanger. If water shuts off it boils in a few mins. Preheats the water 10-15c if I remember right and exhaust cool enough to drip condensate.
-
Well it’s been a while since I’ve been on clean it up. And thought I would check out the post that was for me (see first post) only to find it’s died a death.
Anyone else with DIY heater set ups going well? I upgraded mine to 2 man. Not sure if I posted that. Tried waste oil blends in a webasto and for anyone that’s interested they don’t like it
Started messing with ardiunos. And tempted to learn some code that can allow my pump to run at a slower flow and back to the tank when the water isn’t flowing out the pole. Therefore keeping the heater running on only idle and boosting efficiency.
If anyone sees this that’s very DIY. Has anyone done an ardiuno RO automation. It could turn on filters. Give a low temp warning. TDS warnings. Filter change reminders. RO flushing. Wonder what else could be useful. Found some code for the basic RO shut off and pump control but not the added features.
Just add a 3rd heat exchanger before your header tank. A small 22kw works fine. Add an additional Shurflo pump, a 40amp (continuous rating of 8 amps) PWM controller and 12v digital temp controller that has a cooling function.
You know your Thermo 90 goes into reduced heat mode when it reaches 72ºC. The combustion air motor speed and fuel pump delivery are reduced. The coolant temperature will continue to rise slower by another 10 degrees C, "the heater will then automatically stop combustion, fuel delivery will cease and the flame within the combustion chamber will be extinguished. The heater will then commence a 180 purge cycle.
The heater is now in stand-by mode. The green operation light will still be illuminated and the water pump will continue to circulate the hot water. The heater will automatically restart if the water temperature falls by 15 C, going through the same start cycle as before." (taken from the manual.)
So you set your digital temperature controller to kick on your Shurflo pump at 80 degrees. This pump draws cold water from the tank and pumps it through the 3rd heat exchanger and dumps it back into the tank. Set the controller to switch off the pump at 74 degrees C. It will then keep the heater from switching into stand by mode. You can regulate the speed of the pump with the PWM controller to reduce that heat more gradually.
You will have to add a small section of copper 22mm pipe into the hose to the third heat exchanger for the temperature controllers temp probe.
Defo a more simple option.
With my set up I’ve added an egr heat exchanger into the exhaust. It’s been preheating the water for about a year now. So I need constant water flow through this exchanger. If water shuts off it boils in a few mins. Preheats the water 10-15c if I remember right and exhaust cool enough to drip condensate.
I would find a 12v hot water circulation pump and wire it in via a relay. When you start the heater you start the pump as well.
I'm thinking of a pump somewhere along the lines of what Webasto use on engine heaters that use a circulatory pump mounted in the heater lines away from the furnace.
I seem to recall there are plenty of cheaper alternatives to the Webasto brand name when I looked years ago.
12v solar panel pumps might be worth a look at.
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There is cheaper ones they are Chinese and they are not by a long way as reliable the Webasto ones I think all in are around 280.
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Webasto that is on that price.