Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jk999 on January 06, 2022, 03:30:09 pm
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Can anyone recommend a decent set of heavy duty ratchet straps to hold down a 600 litre ibc
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Can anyone recommend a decent set of heavy duty ratchet straps to hold down a 600 litre ibc
It’s no good using heavy duty ratchet straps and connecting them to the tie down points on a van they arnt designed to hold weight like that and stop it moving .
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Saw these in costco the other day. They looked very strong
https://www.costco.co.uk/Tyres-Automotive/Automotive-Accessories/Car-Accessories/CAT-Ratchet-Tie-Downs-38-x-4876-cm-4-Pack/p/997973
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Aldi sell decent ones from time to time. I take it it’s just to transport an IBC tank and not to use on a daily basis?
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All decent ratchet straps are rated by weight , ,1,1:5 3,5,10,15,20,25 ton rating cheapies in the supermarkets arnt rated at all . Theses are ok to hold a surf board on the roof rack but not suitable for water tanks holding hundreds of ltr of water .
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Ratchet strap might not be weak link the tie down points might be......mine's rated 7.5 ton holding a 500 litre tank, one to stop it sliding forward and one to stop it sliding backward.....not sure what the tie off points are rated but would imagine at least 5 ton.....some days I only need about 350/400 litres so not too bothered and had no problem so far.
When not in use I always try and make sure tank is nearly empty.
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Jands what straps do you use
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I use a pair of 5 tonne straps for my 650L tank.
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Your braking, cornering and steering will all be compromised if you are using an IBC tank in your van for window cleaning. They are only meant to be transported when full or empty.
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While the straps are important they are only as strong as the weakest link - the tie downs.
Most standard tie downs are only rated at something like 50kg!!!! They are not designed to hold hundreds of kg - in the event of an accident the weight could be multiplied by 10 if not more!!
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Can anyone recommend a decent set of heavy duty ratchet straps to hold down a 600 litre ibc
It’s no good using heavy duty ratchet straps and connecting them to the tie down points on a van they arnt designed to hold weight like that and stop it moving .
An IBC tank is more likely to explode in a crash due to the soft nature of the plastic which just might be safer...
I've seen loads of valeting guys over the years with IBCs on wooden pallets in their vans with little orange straps holding them down! ;D
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I had a vivaro for ten years with a 1000 ltr ibc in it never had a problem,
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While the straps are important they are only as strong as the weakest link - the tie downs.
Most standard tie downs are only rated at something like 50kg!!!! They are not designed to hold hundreds of kg - in the event of an accident the weight could be multiplied by 10 if not more!!
At last a poster with some sense well done that man , but as usual the majority will poo poo it and disagree with it , just hope they arnt involved in an accident .
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This is my view for what it's worth,get the tank fitted in a good quality metal cage and get it bolted properly to the chassis,that will be stronger and safer than ratchet straps connected to those metal loops fitted in the van floor
I feel if you have a 500l tank held by ratchet straps and your doing 50 on a dual carriage way and do an emergency stop,the half ton of water that is now trying to move forward and get in the cab with you will pop the metal loops and then you may be dead
Having said that lots of guys have used straps for years without issue,I just feel more confident with it bolted to chassis
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I broke my last anchor point that I tried to ratchet to. I must have overtightened the ratchet and it popped the weld on the metal loop. Was a bit of an eye opener to me how weak the anchor points are.
That being said though, many do this without issue, I’ve even heard of crashes happening and the tank not moving an inch. Halfords sell good quality ratchet straps usually.
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Your braking, cornering and steering will all be compromised if you are using an IBC tank in your van for window cleaning. They are only meant to be transported when full or empty.
not if you baffle it.
These are always lively debates - a lot has to be said for what payload the van is and where you place the tank - if you have a bulk head and place the tank against it then straps will be more than good enough - if mid van then I would always have a physical barrier as well as straps to stop the inertia
a steel frame suffers the same issues as straps - its the point of contact thats the issue a bolt through a floor panel is no safer than the loading eye as the steel is weak and the contact area to small - plates are required for better spread of the pressure
Darran
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If you put a tank in a cage and didnt secure it then its just the same as a tank on its own but heavier, therefore the cage in itself doesnt do anything.
Its how its secured to the floor that counts, therefore i believe if you have strong enough straps and secure them with the same bolts and spreader plates you would do a cage then they could in theory be safer than a cage, its going to come down to what is stronger the straps or the welds on the frame....
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If you put a tank in a cage and didnt secure it then its just the same as a tank on its own but heavier, therefore the cage in itself doesnt do anything.
Its how its secured to the floor that counts, therefore i believe if you have strong enough straps and secure them with the same bolts and spreader plates you would do a cage then they could in theory be safer than a cage, its going to come down to what is stronger the straps or the welds on the frame....
This is interesting, ionics systems frames are designed to deform and go diamond shaped in the event of a serious accident then the tank ruptures releasing the water taking the shock loading out of the tank and frame preventing ingress into the cab area if a bulk head is fitted , if no bulk head you will get very wet , have a look on YouTube the thatcham test videos are very good .
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The welds are the strongest part, the weakest part is right at the edge of the weld, that is the weakest point of any joint.
Baffled tanks reduce the mass of water from sloshing around thus prevent weight being thrown around which changes the way the vehicle handles during transit. Baffles are just as important as securing a tank as it's not just the weight we need to consider when driving but the way the water moves around.
Baffled tank secure in a full cage to take the maximum strength is better than just a base frame for any tank, it's obvious!
The more anchor points securing a cage the better as it's taking less strain on each anchor point. Anchor points are only as strong as the anchor, the bolt or ratchet strap and base plate below. Every different part combined has different tensile strengths so it's only as strong as it's weakest point.
Bulk cargo plate behind the driver and passenger is a good preventative measure should a cage break free in transit during an accident as it may be the closest thing preventing you being squashed beyond recognition.
I use to be a welder and many times my welds were tested to Non destructive testing so I have one hundred percent confidence in my welds as they are scattered across the country holding up several steel erections.
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Ratchet strap might not be weak link the tie down points might be......mine's rated 7.5 ton holding a 500 litre tank, one to stop it sliding forward and one to stop it sliding backward.....not sure what the tie off points are rated but would imagine at least 5 ton.....some days I only need about 350/400 litres so not too bothered and had no problem so far.
When not in use I always try and make sure tank is nearly empty.
They wont be rated anywhere near 5 ton.
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Sure I checked mine when I bought it and the tie downs were rated at 5 ton so 5080kg....tank plus water is only around 550kg so plenty of leeway....straps are rated at 5 ton not 7.5 ton.
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Sure I checked mine when I bought it and the tie downs were rated at 5 ton so 5080kg....tank plus water is only around 550kg so plenty of leeway....straps are rated at 5 ton not 7.5 ton.
The problem is depending on speed of impact that 550 kg tank and water will weigh 10x that with inertia .
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Funny isn’t it?
You wouldn’t want your seat belt anchored to one of those noodles they put in the French vans but it’s ok to bodge something that weighs five times your body weight.
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Sure I checked mine when I bought it and the tie downs were rated at 5 ton so 5080kg....tank plus water is only around 550kg so plenty of leeway....straps are rated at 5 ton not 7.5 ton.
Most lashing points on vans are rated to between 125 and 250 kgs , what van do you have? maybe it was 500kg but even thats unlikely.
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Just checked they are each rated at 500kg by the look of it.
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Not going for ratchet straps now ,an engineer friend of mine gonna make me some heavy duty metal flat bars which I'm gonna bolt to floor and bulk head
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Not going for ratchet straps now ,an engineer friend of mine gonna make me some heavy duty metal flat bars which I'm gonna bolt to floor and bulk head
Expect your insurance to go up. It’s classed as a modification. If it’s strapped in it’s just classed as cargo
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Interesting point about insurance - would they say the same for shelving ?
Darran
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Interesting point about insurance - would they say the same for shelving ?
Darran
I’m sure if it’s changed in any way from how it left the factory, it’s classed as a modification
Roof racks and tow bars. Depends how snotty the insurance company want to be
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Maths has the answer, and specifically the equations of motion.
We want to know the force generated when 650 kg comes to a dead stop in a crash (about 0.05 seconds) from 30mph
(For SI units, 30mph = 13.441 metres per second)
Force = mass x acceleration
So we need the acceleration, given by the equation of motion
V= U+ at
(V: final velocity, U:initial velocity, a:acceleration, t:time
Rearrange that equation to make ‘a’ the subject and you get
(V-U)/t = a
Acceleration = (0-13.441)/0.05
Acceleration = -268.82 m/s/s
(It’s negative because it’s deceleration)
So, force= mass x acceleration
Force = 650kg x 268.82m/s/s
Force = 174,733 newtons
Or 17.817 metric tonnes.
So assuming you only ever drive at 30mph, your anchor points behind the tank (the front ones won’t be any use of course) must be able to hold 17 tonnes between them.
Seems about right, Ionics video says 1,000 litre system exerts a force of 52 tonnes in a ~30mph crash.
https://youtu.be/9usI6qFzfpo
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For a 500kg tank I get just less than a ton.
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Interesting point about insurance - would they say the same for shelving ?
Darran
They usually ask on the insurance quote ‘does the vehicle have internal racking’ so that wouldn’t be an issue I imagine as you have already declared that on the original quote. Having a water tank bolted in is a different matter though
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For a 500kg tank I get just less than a ton.
Show your working
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Maths has the answer, and specifically the equations of motion.
We want to know the force generated when 650 kg comes to a dead stop in a crash (about 0.05 seconds) from 30mph
(For SI units, 30mph = 13.441 metres per second)
Force = mass x acceleration
So we need the acceleration, given by the equation of motion
V= U+ at
(V: final velocity, U:initial velocity, a:acceleration, t:time
Rearrange that equation to make ‘a’ the subject and you get
(V-U)/t = a
Acceleration = (0-13.441)/0.05
Acceleration = -268.82 m/s/s
(It’s negative because it’s deceleration)
So, force= mass x acceleration
Force = 650kg x 268.82m/s/s
Force = 174,733 newtons
Or 17.817 metric tonnes.
So assuming you only ever drive at 30mph, your anchor points behind the tank (the front ones won’t be any use of course) must be able to hold 17 tonnes between them.
Seems about right, Ionics video says 1,000 litre system exerts a force of 52 tonnes in a ~30mph crash.
https://youtu.be/9usI6qFzfpo
This kingpin (about as thick as your wrist) is capable of pushing,pulling and stopping the 40 tonne trailer its attatched to.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1642353328_king-pin-dsc09358-300x138.jpg)
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Maths has the answer, and specifically the equations of motion.
We want to know the force generated when 650 kg comes to a dead stop in a crash (about 0.05 seconds) from 30mph
(For SI units, 30mph = 13.441 metres per second)
Force = mass x acceleration
So we need the acceleration, given by the equation of motion
V= U+ at
(V: final velocity, U:initial velocity, a:acceleration, t:time
Rearrange that equation to make ‘a’ the subject and you get
(V-U)/t = a
Acceleration = (0-13.441)/0.05
Acceleration = -268.82 m/s/s
(It’s negative because it’s deceleration)
So, force= mass x acceleration
Force = 650kg x 268.82m/s/s
Force = 174,733 newtons
Or 17.817 metric tonnes.
So assuming you only ever drive at 30mph, your anchor points behind the tank (the front ones won’t be any use of course) must be able to hold 17 tonnes between them.
Seems about right, Ionics video says 1,000 litre system exerts a force of 52 tonnes in a ~30mph crash.
https://youtu.be/9usI6qFzfpo
This kingpin (about as thick as your wrist) is capable of pushing,pulling and stopping the 40 tonne trailer its attatched to.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1642353328_king-pin-dsc09358-300x138.jpg)
No it isn’t. The trailer has its own brakes.
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Interesting point about insurance - would they say the same for shelving ?
Darran
They usually ask on the insurance quote ‘does the vehicle have internal racking’ so that wouldn’t be an issue I imagine as you have already declared that on the original quote. Having a water tank bolted in is a different matter though
Not all insurance companies penalise you for having a water tank bolted in, funnily enough it’s usually these ‘specialist’ insurance companies who pull your pants down for having it bolted in.
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I Like the maths, so basically we're all driving around in death traps!
Been nice knowing you ;D
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Maths has the answer, and specifically the equations of motion.
We want to know the force generated when 650 kg comes to a dead stop in a crash (about 0.05 seconds) from 30mph
(For SI units, 30mph = 13.441 metres per second)
Force = mass x acceleration
So we need the acceleration, given by the equation of motion
V= U+ at
(V: final velocity, U:initial velocity, a:acceleration, t:time
Rearrange that equation to make ‘a’ the subject and you get
(V-U)/t = a
Acceleration = (0-13.441)/0.05
Acceleration = -268.82 m/s/s
(It’s negative because it’s deceleration)
So, force= mass x acceleration
Force = 650kg x 268.82m/s/s
Force = 174,733 newtons
Or 17.817 metric tonnes.
So assuming you only ever drive at 30mph, your anchor points behind the tank (the front ones won’t be any use of course) must be able to hold 17 tonnes between them.
Seems about right, Ionics video says 1,000 litre system exerts a force of 52 tonnes in a ~30mph crash.
https://youtu.be/9usI6qFzfpo
This kingpin (about as thick as your wrist) is capable of pushing,pulling and stopping the 40 tonne trailer its attatched to.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1642353328_king-pin-dsc09358-300x138.jpg)
No it isn’t. The trailer has its own brakes.
Its still got to pull it from a standstill.
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Jesus what is with you lot why do you all think on negative side all the time ,it was a simple question all I wanted was a simple answer, only thing your all thinking is crashes and deaths ,a window cleaner got killed by touching and electrical cable with his pole,the way I come to think is if your times up so be it ,1 simple question 1 simple answer that's all I want rant over 😇
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yes - your correct, but thats the point, you may think its safe but it may not be......
others go that one step further and will not accept any alternative to a "crash tested" system
then we get the posters just hoping that any idea they have will be wonderful and cant accept it may have a fault.
if a tank is hard stopped to a bulk head it can't go anywhere - if your having it mid cargo area then you would need more than the standard D rings supplied - JUST TO BE SAFE
hope that helps
Darran
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Confused now 😕
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Maths has the answer, and specifically the equations of motion.
We want to know the force generated when 650 kg comes to a dead stop in a crash (about 0.05 seconds) from 30mph
(For SI units, 30mph = 13.441 metres per second)
Force = mass x acceleration
So we need the acceleration, given by the equation of motion
V= U+ at
(V: final velocity, U:initial velocity, a:acceleration, t:time
Rearrange that equation to make ‘a’ the subject and you get
(V-U)/t = a
Acceleration = (0-13.441)/0.05
Acceleration = -268.82 m/s/s
(It’s negative because it’s deceleration)
So, force= mass x acceleration
Force = 650kg x 268.82m/s/s
Force = 174,733 newtons
Or 17.817 metric tonnes.
So assuming you only ever drive at 30mph, your anchor points behind the tank (the front ones won’t be any use of course) must be able to hold 17 tonnes between them.
Seems about right, Ionics video says 1,000 litre system exerts a force of 52 tonnes in a ~30mph crash.
https://youtu.be/9usI6qFzfpo
This kingpin (about as thick as your wrist) is capable of pushing,pulling and stopping the 40 tonne trailer its attatched to.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1642353328_king-pin-dsc09358-300x138.jpg)
No it isn’t. The trailer has its own brakes.
Its still got to pull it from a standstill.
Its not exerting anywhere near 40 tons of force when you pull away , assuming it has wheels on of course! Exactly the same reason that a 5 ton tirfor hand winch can pull rolling stock .
Its only my opinion but i think anyone that uses ratchet straps to hold their tank in wants their head looking at.
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Its only my opinion but i think anyone that uses ratchet straps to hold their tank in wants their head looking at.
Only if it hits them.
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https://www.ratchetstrapsuk.co.uk/
This seems a good website. Personally i'd get the highest rated ones and get 4 of them (1 for each corner).
I think you can also upgrade your D rings and bolts to high tensile ones.
If you want to go a step further, then get longer bolts (that go right through the floor) and finish these off with a large washer, nut and heavy duty spreader plate for each of the 4 corners.