richard hammond9

  • Posts: 5
Traditional Method ??
« on: November 07, 2005, 07:36:07 pm »
Does anyony still use the trad method on this site??

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2005, 07:41:25 pm »
I do.

Well at the momment anyway, but in the process of switching to wfp hopefully by the end of this year if the weather doesnt get to cold.

Just done a good 8 hrs running up and down that ladder.

Nel

richard hammond9

  • Posts: 5
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2005, 07:42:25 pm »
Is there anyone who intends to continue as traditional?

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2005, 08:00:59 pm »
Yes.... Me for a start.

I've got no intention of changing and I have no good reason to.

This isn't a wfp site. ::)

There's far more traditional workers around here, it's just that most of the regaular posters are wfp, because they constantly need help with something.

Being trad you don't get the problems and the hassle. ;)

richard hammond9

  • Posts: 5
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2005, 08:14:08 pm »
My crystal ball tells me that, traditional window cleaners will become like the master craftsmen of old.
Customers will pay a fortune for a window cleaner who uses traditional methods, in the same way they pay money for a hand crafted car, rather than a production line one.

The result will be they can pick their price and spend the time ensuring H & S

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2005, 08:24:26 pm »
Here here.

Sorry mate, took your question the wrong way, I thought you were against it. :-\

Top man!

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2005, 08:27:31 pm »

Being trad you don't get the problems and the hassle. ;)

Roger,

I do around thirty of the married quarters in Beachley.

Normally my hourly rate is around £20 per hour there with ladders.

I cleaned them today; 1st cleans with WFP and I've just worked out that my hourly rate is £27.50 now.  Next month (2nd cleans) mabye £30 £35?

I wonder what my hourly rate will be there in six months time when I've had more practise and gained more experience?

It's well worth the hassle.

However, I still use ladders for jobs which I think will be quicker or not suitable for a WFP.


Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 08:34:53 pm »
 ;)The squee gee will never die,the wfp is not the begin and end all,the squee gee
has been around for years and will still be ;)you cant take wfp inside :P in some ways I feel a bit sorry for the wc who gets to use the wfp and knows nothing else :-\ what does he say sorry I cannot do insides :-\,the person  who can use both now thats a proper trades man ;)
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Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 08:43:37 pm »
I use a mixture of both.

WFP for all 1st floor and upwards and all floors on leaded and georgian.

Trad on ground floor and windows where WFP isn't suitable ( bad paintwork etc )

WFP is just another tool of the trade but a very good one if used well. It can get you work you can't do from ladders safely. OK I am now approx 30% faster than when totally trad but I would have gone for it for nothing else other than the safety aspect. Take tomorrow for instance. I have 30+ mph winds forecast. I probably wouldnt have worked off ladders in those conditions but will have no problems on the ground with an 18 ft pole so I will get a days earnings that I woudn't have before.

My squeegee is staying as part of my toolkit for the foreseeable future though.

Andrew

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 08:50:19 pm »
Tosh,
On the sort of straight forward side-by-side houses you're talking about I'm doing £30+.
It's only on georgians you'd beat me.

A few extra quid doesn't make me want the problems that's all.
I do ok... ;)

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2005, 09:03:25 pm »
Tosh,
On the sort of straight forward side-by-side houses you're talking about I'm doing £30+.
It's only on georgians you'd beat me.

A few extra quid doesn't make me want the problems that's all.
I do ok... ;)

If you're doing £30+ then your prices must be good.  I reckon you could add nearly a tenner to your hourly rate.

I bet I could easily beat you on those houses you do in Hardwick Avenue.  The ones with the upstairs bay windows.

EASILY!  First clean too.  Remember second cleans are faster.

Or the big sand-stone house on the corner just down from those houses you do.

There's nine ladder moves just to do the front.  Then you need ladders for the bottom windows too (unless your 9 feet tall).  With WFP, it's knocked about fifteen to twenty minutes off that job and turned it into a really nice account.

I'll be doing them at the end of this week if you want to meet up.

H h20

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2005, 09:14:30 pm »
It`s not about the squeegee,i`ts the ladder "THE LADDER",none of us who have got wfp as ditched the squeegee,it`s about how safe you want to work,if you are working quick with a ladder then you are not taking your safety serious enough,i can honestly say my mind is a rest since iv`e found an alternative to the ladder no more working at height,keep my feet safely on the ground,Gaz

craig jwc

  • Posts: 1076
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2005, 09:23:06 pm »
I agree with what Gaz posted.
It's all about the safety side not the squeegee.
I use both methods. Only time i get ladders off now is to get over the annoying back gate that is locked.

Craig

Gordon_Taylor

  • Posts: 394
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2005, 10:22:04 pm »
What kind of question is that, is does make me laugh sometimes when people bang on about wfp, I think some people forget that is was probably a sqeegee and a ladder that got them started in the first place. :-\
Quality is doing it right, even when no-one is looking.

Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1964
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2005, 10:34:56 pm »
Very true I used a squeegee for 18yrs and still do.

However have also used wfp for 2yrs worked today 4 hours hourly rate £88.50 I would not have done that with a squeegee.

As for hasle change resin and fillters every six months and a hose conector every 4 months.

Plug van on at night 1 1/2hrs disconect in morning drive away, no washing scrims every night.

Roy :)

AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 23600
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2005, 10:47:35 pm »
What Gaz said! Says it all for me!
It's a game of three halves!

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2005, 11:16:40 pm »
Here here.

I'm a w/c first and foremost, 26 yrs and counting. I started with leather and scrim for years. I was fast,like S**t off an hot shovel, I could do 3 detached houses in 29 mins total.IT now takes me 55 mins with a squeegee.

The squeegee felt like an whole new way of w/cleaning, then I proggresed to Bucket on the belt. Wfp is the new way ahead, its safe and you cant knock it for that.

My son is now working with me and wants to take things to a new level in a few years. So we are going wfp on safety grounds.I do tops traditonal all day long, he does bottoms, I'm up and down the ladder approx 1000 times a week.

When i'm wfpoleing its going to be an all lot safer.I've allready been offered a contract for 4 storey work on a block of flats. Which i would not even consider traditionl. Will still use ladders but only selectively.

Dont knock antill you try it

Nel

rosskesava

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2005, 12:36:55 am »
We use both.

For some jobs, and for some jobs only, what ever anyone says, traditional methods are easier and quicker but not always safer but we work only within the law as it stands now.

Wfp is safer but does it give better results? My opinion is usually not but at least the frames are cleaner and wfp is quicker and safer.

Wfp is not the last word in window cleaning and better in every case as many make it out to be. It has it's place but so does traditional methods.

Cheers

richard hammond9

  • Posts: 5
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2005, 07:56:43 am »
I think after the newness of wfp's has gone many will return to trad methods when they realise how to use the new regs.

those on wfp get sloppy after a while, start doing a 2nd class job, and will loose customers who want their window cleaned properly. 

That's when Squeaky Clean will clean up. You can follow the new regs and trad clean, if your bright enough to understand them, rather than act like sheep and spend ££££££££ on wfp.

Yes it will take longer to be safe, but customers will pay the extra for that saftey.

Bahh

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2005, 09:21:41 am »
I think after the newness of wfp's has gone many will return to trad methods when they realise how to use the new regs.

those on wfp get sloppy after a while, start doing a 2nd class job, and will loose customers who want their window cleaned properly. 

That's when Squeaky Clean will clean up. You can follow the new regs and trad clean, if your bright enough to understand them, rather than act like sheep and spend ££££££££ on wfp.

Yes it will take longer to be safe, but customers will pay the extra for that saftey.

Bahh

You dont know what you are missing boy ,i was like you 3 months back with 7 years on the ladder and would never go back no matter what

Dave

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2005, 09:26:44 am »
FACT.

You are never 100% safe up a ladder, their is allways an element of risk.

If you are going  up and down the ladder quickly to earn more money the risk element increases.

My brother was a steel erector, was, because he had an accident while working at hight, Fracuterd skull,broken arms, broken shoulder, broken pelvis, Broken leg. Broken ribs, crushed spine. Dead when he hit the ground but brought back to life after 2 mins by the nurse on sight.

Hight kills. My freind a w/c had a fall 20 yrs ago, nearly lost his arm because of compliciations afterwards.

My uncle a w/c all his life, off work 6 months after falling through a con roof.

Since telling my customers I'm going wfp on safety grounds,they all say its very SENSIBLE. If you want to stay traditionl, fine. I'm not knocking it. I've done it for 26 yrs. But their is a far safer alternative and as you get older going up and down a ladder it as a big impact on lifestyle. You get tired far more, which impacts on your quality of life.

I just hope you never become an accident statisect.Your health is far more important then the methord you choose.

Regards Nel

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2005, 01:09:43 pm »
you can use poles just put your backflip on the end of it sorted ;Dyou do not have to go down the thousands of pounds rd to clean windows :-\ ;D
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dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2005, 01:23:01 pm »
If ever the day comes that people will pay more for traditonal cleans I'll do them.
Just because I now use the pole doesn't mean I'v forgotten how to use ladders. I still do when it's quicker. Squeaky clean does have a point about more hassle with WFP. I seem to spend more of my time at weekends fixing this or tweaking that. It's been over a week now since I sent my veristream back. I have been promised it's return tomorrow.
I hate open ladders, they are dangerous, no daubt about it. I converted my ladders for window cleaning  when I first started and have converted every one since. I have a big alloy stabliser bar accross the bottom that sits on large rubber feet made from a car tyre. It has never slipped once. The top goes to a point with a large rubber bobbin off a boat trailer in the middle. where the ladder goes against the sill is covered with a piece of none slip shower mat. If I'm working on sloping grass I stick a pin in the ground behind it.
 Ladders can be made a lot safer. Dai

Stephen@Belper

  • Posts: 32
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2005, 05:39:32 pm »
What kind of question is that, is does make me laugh sometimes when people bang on about wfp, I think some people forget that is was probably a sqeegee and a ladder that got them started in the first place. :-\
actualy it was Chamois leather and scrim that I started on so I've probably been at it a little longer than you. If we hadn't moved with the times and started using the squeege, then the bucket on a belt where would we be today, history and the same will happen to anyone who refuses to progress today. Change is nothing new, you just have to get on with it and progress or get left behind. As for people who say wfp doesn't do a good job, its not wfp that doesn't do a good job it is the operator who doesn't know what he's doing. You can always tell a wfp cleaned window, they shine like no other and my customers notice that and tell me so, in fact I had an old lady come out the other day and say, "that machine you've got is brilliant, the windows are so clean" I have only ever lost 2 customers to WFP, and they were upstairs only. I was more than happy for them to go as I've picked up so much more work as people have seen me with the wfp and come over to ask if I can fit them in. I have always moved with the times and benefited from doing so.

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2005, 07:11:20 pm »
They still will never replace the squee gee,I am not anti wfp,but if you want to talk safety,then wfp could be a hazard as well,wait for the Accident then all the screams come,so for those who keep knocking ladders,think about your 40 ft 60 ft poles and the potential damage they could do,in the wrong hands ;)the Health and safety could have a field with them :-\ so ladders are not all bad :D
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Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2005, 07:23:48 pm »
I still use both methods everyday, WFP can't do everything, and traditioinal skill will never go away, it is only the ladder use that will go.
Any of you checked out the window cleaner mag this month?
Big article on H & S, anyone who thinks they will be window cleaning of ladders in a few years time had best think again.

Trad skill will always be needed. it is a basic skill of window cleaning, and it will take those who come into window cleaning with only the WFP a long time to master.

Roger (Squeaky) is quite wrong, half a dozen houses close together will be done quicker with WFP.
A standard window will take the average trad cleaner 90 seconds to clean (I'm not talking about race speed either)
A standard window is 3 panes of glass, one narrow opening light, one wider, taller opening pane and the normal pane of glass under the long thin opening light.
 90 seconds...
WFP is 30 seconds, tops.

and that is well within just about anybody's comfort zone, AND it also includes the frames.
It is EASIER to get it wrong with WFP, no argument there, but you can still make mistakes with trad too, and there is alway a a sticky film left behind...thats ALWAYS, no matter how good you are, no matter what liquid you use, there is always that film, and dust sticks to it.
the qualitiy of the job is down to the window cleaner and his/her experience, not the tool they use.

On a georgian or leaded window the WFP will clean it faster than you could dry scrim it.


Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2005, 07:48:00 pm »
Ian,

Shush mate. 

WFP is rubbish.  Roger don't get one; nor anyone else living in or around the South East Wales area; there's enough of us 'sheep' here already.

Complete twaddle.  You'll lose your round then have to start from scratch again; with ladders.

Waste of money and does a rubbish job.  It only cleans the frames.  Honest.

I'll only keep using mine 'cos I'm scared of heights.

Baaa Baaaa

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2005, 07:56:40 pm »
Ian what does it say in the mag that you think ladders will become extinct?

cheers Nel.

Roy Harding

  • Posts: 1964
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2005, 08:39:57 pm »
Ian,

Shush mate. 

WFP is rubbish.  Roger don't get one; nor anyone else living in or around the South East Wales area; there's enough of us 'sheep' here already.

Complete twaddle.  You'll lose your round then have to start from scratch again; with ladders.

Waste of money and does a rubbish job.  It only cleans the frames.  Honest.

I'll only keep using mine 'cos I'm scared of heights.

Baaa Baaaa

Tosh I nearly said the same thing this afternoon, wfp total rip off.

Roy ;D

kingfisher

  • Posts: 128
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2005, 11:33:39 pm »
Has enyone on this forum ever gone over to WFP then changed there mind and go back to traditonal?

Kev

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2005, 11:38:00 pm »
I'll let you know one day. ;D

Not.

Oh and Ian,

30 seconds to a standard window?
5 seconds to extend pole and 5 to un-extend it.
That leaves 20 secs, to do 3 large and 1 small pane.

So, that's about 5 seconds each to scrub off all the recent grease (right in the corners please), and rinse off thoroughly.
Can't see how you can even do the sills...

I think you'll find it's more like 45-60 seconds.

As for 90 seconds trad?  More like 50-60 for me, so nothing to gain really.

Rog.


Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2005, 08:47:44 am »
Sigh, Roger, Roger......
It no good you know Rog, WFP is quicker per window, you can run but you can't hide ;D

In a RACE, trad will win, you only have to see Turbo Terry in action to see that.

And it is unlikely you will clean the window I described in my previous post in under 1 minute, you might if you treat it like a race, but that is very different.

Windows do not get covered in grease either, water alone will not remove grease, grease is not water soluable.

Over the years I have done a great many 'proper' time and motion studies, and the time taken for the window described is 90 seconds, not counting positioning the ladder, climbing up and climbing down the ladder. That is cleaning time only.

I have also watched other window cleaners and stop-watched them too.
I was chatting to another window cleaner last month, there happened to be yet another one across the road, cleaning exactly the window I have described, I timed him....yep, 90 seconds.

He wasn't as quick as you Roger, I do accept you are pretty quick (lets face it, I trained you 8)) But he wasn't a slouch either.

Done correctly the WFP will get into the corners far more thoroughly than trad, sills aren't a problem either, if it is an existing account of your own, the sills will be clean anyway, and a quick wipe is all that is needed, you are continually rinsing them as you are cleaning the glass.

When I pull up to a house (prior to the van) I would pop the hatch, pull out pole hose and pole, turn on pump, pinch hose,  walk to furthest point, extend pole and clean the upstairs of the house, lower the pole and clean the downstairs of the house. walk back to car, and pack gear away.
At this point, the packing away is slower than putting a ladder on a roof rack, you would gain a minute on me here.
Getting the gear to the first window to clean would not be very different though.

More than a couple of houses close together, the ones where you wold park up the car and walk from house to house doing it trad, well I spend 5 minutes getting out the trolley and connecting everything up.
If it needed more water than the trolley could carry then I would drop off a couple of containers first.
Wheeling a trolley around is very fast...unless you run, and then its even quicker ;D ;D
The pole can be extended as fast as you can climb up and down a ladder, if you wanted to race up and down the ladder then you are welcome, you'd also be kind of stupid...thats really asking for trouble.

The faster you go, the more errors you will make, being very fast with trad is bloody hard work, and mistakes will happen.
Being fast with WFP...er...well, it isn't hard, you simply don't need to rush. 30-40 seconds for that standard window is well within even the slowest of workers comfort zone.
For the trad window cleaner, to acheive that kind of time he is going to be bloody flying, few quick ones will match that time, the average window cleaner certainly won't.
The AVERAGE window cleaner will take around 90 SECONDS.

Cleaning time will be quicker on an average house with WFP, but time would be lost in the packing up and moving on to the next one, but over a days work the WFP user will end out doing that days work 25-30% faster.
Thats also assuming that the work in question is lots of small houses, all with straight forward, easy clean windows.
Slip in some large acounts, or georgian and leaded windows, then WFP is so much faster it isn't worth the effort trying to compare times.
And if you are a competant and fussy window cleaner, even with WFP your quality will match that or exceed that of the trad cleaner, remember, quality depends not on the tools, but on the operator, and that of course applies equally to both trad and WFP.
they will also be less tired, and though you might fall over, you can't fall OFF the floor ;)

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Paul Coleman

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2005, 09:33:18 am »
Has enyone on this forum ever gone over to WFP then changed there mind and go back to traditonal?

Kev

Well I've thought about it but I'm told that everybody does during the first few weeks.  I've been breaking myself into it transitionally.  My legs are fine but my arms ache.  Still, maybe those boffins down at the BWCA can lend me a pair of splints tomorrow  ;D

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2005, 11:52:12 am »
give it time the wfp will it stand the test of time ??? :-\ a lot of strain on your body if you use this all day long, :P
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telboy

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2005, 12:20:40 pm »
WHEN I FIRST STARTED THERE WERE NO SQUEE GEES

WE JUST HAD SCRIMS

YOU TRY CLEANING INSIDE A SHOP WINDOW ON A SUNNY DAY WITH JUST A COUPLE OF BITS OF SCRIM

THEN THE SQUEE GEES ARRIVED I THOUGHT I WAS IN HEAVEN

IT WAS SO MUCH QUICKER

NOW IV'E GOT A W/F POLE SYSTEM AND WORK IS SO MUCH EASIER
BUT I WOULD NEVER BE WITHOUT MY SQUEE GEES

BLOKES WHO JUST CLEAN OUTSIDES WITH W/F SYSTEMS AINT PROPER WINDOW CLEANERS TO MY MIND >:(


TEL BOY ;)

ANGEL C/S






Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2005, 05:56:30 pm »
HERE HERE ;D
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Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2005, 06:03:29 pm »
BLOKES WHO JUST CLEAN OUTSIDES WITH W/F SYSTEMS AINT PROPER WINDOW CLEANERS TO MY MIND >:(
I like you Telboy.  Even if you did call me "Streaky Clean" once ;D

What about those who only do the tops wfp, and then squeegee the bottoms?
Two sets of kit? What's that all about?  ???

Rog.

Paul Coleman

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2005, 06:10:38 pm »
BLOKES WHO JUST CLEAN OUTSIDES WITH W/F SYSTEMS AINT PROPER WINDOW CLEANERS TO MY MIND >:(
I like you Telboy.  Even if you did call me "Streaky Clean" once ;D

What about those who only do the tops wfp, and then squeegee the bottoms?
Two sets of kit? What's that all about?  ???

Rog.

For me it's about water preservation as I'm a bit short of accessible facilities living in a flat.  Water preservation is also a good thing ecologically too I guess.

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2005, 06:12:28 pm »
All of us experienced window cleaners on here, even if we have WFP, we are still skilled in  trad methods, and all will still have to use trad methods regularly.

WFP gets you off ladders, and it is just another tool in the window cleaners armoury, a pretty major one to be sure though.

Will it stand the test of time as Terry asked?

Well it has been going several years now and is taking off big time.

It's techniques are tried and tested, they work, of that there is no question, so I think it has already stood the test of time There is no going back now and  H & S are certainly not going to relax the regs, they are just going to get tighter!

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

tom_currie

  • Posts: 98
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2005, 06:21:32 pm »
the real thing here for traditional is to get more money for the job. any job hand done costs more.why are we any different because window cleaner hold back from change as has been said here.
every other trade is puting ladders away on safety grounds finding safer way to work.

telboy

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2005, 06:39:33 pm »
SQUEAKY

I WASN'T REFERING TO SHINERS WHO USE TRAD TOOLS

ONLY THOSE THAT CANT

I THINK YOURE KINDA CUTE TO ;)

TEL BOY ;D ;)

ANGEL CLEANING

P.S GOT THE NAME RIGHT THIS TIME ;D

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2005, 08:10:58 am »
The one thing if wfp came down in price maybe wc would use or go over to them more ;) :-\but its a lot of dosh to lay out get work,people do not come towards you just cause you have a pole that squirts water out of the top with a brush ::) the window cleaner after all these years is now looking like a gone wrong, chimmley sweeper,if we have a very bad winter like its predicted,ice snow you cannot use this method in these conditions,what if it goes on for a long time ??? :-\ all this water flying around domestic punters will go spare :o wfp do have there uses for sure but it does seem a lot of trouble just to clean windows :-\
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Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2005, 08:19:50 am »
Can't wait to see what happens in the next major drought, and it will happen sooner or later.

Hundreds of gallons of precious water being used by thousands of people.
Oh dear, they won't allow that. :-\

Terry_Burrows

  • Posts: 1643
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2005, 08:22:48 am »
 ;D thats a very good point :o hose ban wfp ban :-\ no doubt that will be
made to somones attention  :o
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AuRavelling79

  • Posts: 23600
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2005, 05:15:22 pm »
Luddites.
It's a game of three halves!

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2005, 05:41:56 pm »
Hosepipe bans won't really have an effect come a drought, if it got so bad they would stop you using it to clean windows we would all be in dire straights indeed :-\

As for the winter weather...I'm dreading a really bad cold one!
But there are things that can be done to at least cut down the problems.

The window cleaner I was talking to a couple of weeks ago (when I was timing another one across the road ;)) mentioned a guy who was trying to sell a product to stop the water freezing on pavements and paths.
Rather than carry around large quantities of road salt to throw down, this guy is promoting a hand held sprayer, much like you will use to spray fertiliser or bug spray on you garden, you know the ones, the pump up ones.
In this is a clear antifreeze/defrost type solution that you spray onto the areas you have wetted with the water, sounds like a damn good idea to me, I'll try and find out more about it.

There is also some kind of alcohol you can put into the water too, though what the cost of this is I have no idea.

Many if not most of the window cleaners on the forum haven't been going long enough to have gone through a severe winter, having days on end with the water freezing in your BOAB, your scrims freezing into lumps of cardboard, the water freezing constantly on the glass, it'll cause hardships for trad cleaners too.
I'm am very lucky in that most of my bread and butter work is shop fronts, at least if the weather does get as bad as the doom-sayers are predicting, then I'll just go back to using trad, I use it a lot anyway, but I won't be climbing ladders again...apart from my pointer perhaps.
But as I said, I am lucky in that I have that option.

Only time will tell what kind of a winter we are going to have come January eh?

Terry mentions the cost of the systems as being expensive, some of them are to be sure, but for under 2 grand you can be up and running with a custom built system, and that is ignoring the fact that you can also go the DIY way and get up and running cheaper still.

How many of you have the full package with satelite TV? How new are some of your computers? Got broadband too? How much did you pay for your car?
An don't forget, some of the companies will lease you the equipment, or you can buy it on  the never never...
For the one man band the cost simply is not exorbitant, different for the larger companies, they will have to invest tens of thousands of pounds in some cases.

My cup is always half full, never half empty ;)

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

telboy

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2005, 05:53:00 pm »
ITS SAD TO SEE SOME TRAD W/C SEEM TO BE LOOKING FORWARD TO W/F POLE WINDOW CLEANERS COMING A CROPPER

TALKING ABOUT WATER BANS
FREEZING WINTERS

AFTER ALL WE ARE ALL ONLY TRYING TO EARN A LIVING

TERRY  SQUEAKY????



TELBOY :( ;)


ANGEL C/S

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2005, 06:42:17 pm »
Ian why do you have to turn your pump on ?????????

Get a variestream as it is always on take your hose to the first window connect your pole and voila the water flow switches the pump to start and instant water.

when finished disconnect pole then voila the pump stops.

Magic

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2005, 08:11:17 pm »
ITS SAD TO SEE SOME TRAD W/C SEEM TO BE LOOKING FORWARD TO W/F POLE WINDOW CLEANERS COMING A CROPPER
No more so than them looking forward to a ladder ban! ;)

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2005, 08:17:54 pm »
I think I know the reason that I'm not faster with WFP. Ian put me on to it.
90 seconds to do a standard window? I timed myself today, not the same window as Ian described, just 2 panes about 3ft by 18 inches. I wasn't racing just cleaning as normal. time taken 40 seconds max. Now I'm getting a bit long in the tooth so not the fastest guy around. It's all down to the Wagtail. I'v really mastered it now, got it dog eared too. In the time it takes an average guy to cover the glass with his applicator, I'v done the whole job. If Terry Burrows ever gets his hands on one of these he'l have to get securicore to do his collecting. DAI

neil100

  • Posts: 1137
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2005, 08:43:42 pm »
Ian,

I'm another one who's been timming himself today.

You reckon 90 secs for an average 3 glasspaned window. It never took me longer then 60 seconds, and I was going a speed I can maintain for 9 hours a day in other words normall. I did time myself at race speed and that was 34 seconds and I checked how clean they were afterwards, pristine.

Now I'm going wfp for safety reasons. But I'm damm quick traditional. 26 yrs have fine tuned me to perfection. I am 100% effecient without wasting a second. I adjust my ladder as I walk if the windows are not to high. and as I put the ladder on the ground I'm on my way up, I know instinctivley exactly how high my ladder should be for each window.I never ever have to adjust the ladder for hight. I've done tops only for 12 years. I'm not saying I am faster then wfp but 90 seconds is awfully slow.

I have an excellent reputation for leaving windows streak free Whilest  being fast. And their will not be many w/c faster then me on this planet who could beat me for speed or quality on a real house with upstairs and downstairs windows.


Dont tar us all with the same brush. 90 secs a joke.

Regards Nel.

Moderator David@stives

  • Posts: 8829
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2005, 08:47:18 pm »
Does that include the 5 odd seconds and the same again down the ladder and the 5 seconds for moving the ladder i do a nursing home and it was 2 pane windows and it was 1 min including moving ladders and i am quick too even faster if i want to be .

I dont care if wfp is slower it is more relaxing and enjoyable.

Dave

rosskesava

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2005, 09:53:01 pm »
Wfp is one thing for sure - wetter.

Speed is just one aspect of making money though.

How about the price? Organisation. Reducing running costs? Etc.

It is great to be really fast (which I'm not with traditional methods) but efficiancy is better in terms of the days work and, I think, more important than speed when actually at the job.

One thing with being speedy though that is worth a thought, the risk especially with ladders increases.

I was an engineer at the start of my working life doing an apprenticeship as a toolmaker and on every machine was a sign which read 'Speed Can Kill'. Every day that was hammered into us in no uncertain terms.

Personnaly, I don't ever worry about being quick. I just do the job and then go onto the next whether trad style or wfp.

Cheers

Paul Coleman

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2005, 11:57:55 pm »
Hosepipe bans won't really have an effect come a drought, if it got so bad they would stop you using it to clean windows we would all be in dire straights indeed :-\

As for the winter weather...I'm dreading a really bad cold one!
But there are things that can be done to at least cut down the problems.

The window cleaner I was talking to a couple of weeks ago (when I was timing another one across the road ;)) mentioned a guy who was trying to sell a product to stop the water freezing on pavements and paths.
Rather than carry around large quantities of road salt to throw down, this guy is promoting a hand held sprayer, much like you will use to spray fertiliser or bug spray on you garden, you know the ones, the pump up ones.
In this is a clear antifreeze/defrost type solution that you spray onto the areas you have wetted with the water, sounds like a damn good idea to me, I'll try and find out more about it.

There is also some kind of alcohol you can put into the water too, though what the cost of this is I have no idea.

Many if not most of the window cleaners on the forum haven't been going long enough to have gone through a severe winter, having days on end with the water freezing in your BOAB, your scrims freezing into lumps of cardboard, the water freezing constantly on the glass, it'll cause hardships for trad cleaners too.
I'm am very lucky in that most of my bread and butter work is shop fronts, at least if the weather does get as bad as the doom-sayers are predicting, then I'll just go back to using trad, I use it a lot anyway, but I won't be climbing ladders again...apart from my pointer perhaps.
But as I said, I am lucky in that I have that option.

Only time will tell what kind of a winter we are going to have come January eh?

Terry mentions the cost of the systems as being expensive, some of them are to be sure, but for under 2 grand you can be up and running with a custom built system, and that is ignoring the fact that you can also go the DIY way and get up and running cheaper still.

How many of you have the full package with satelite TV? How new are some of your computers? Got broadband too? How much did you pay for your car?
An don't forget, some of the companies will lease you the equipment, or you can buy it on  the never never...
For the one man band the cost simply is not exorbitant, different for the larger companies, they will have to invest tens of thousands of pounds in some cases.

My cup is always half full, never half empty ;)

Ian

Ian.
I would be interested to hear about that footpath spray thing you mentioned.  As for water freezing on the glass - that has never really been an issue for me with trad method.  I have tipped plenty of screenwash into the bucket along with the water and itr works OK.  It would be a problem with WFP though I think as any additive would make the water impure perhaps?  However, there is a workaround.  It's not ideal but it does exist so long as you don't need to clean any windows above the first floor.  In order to avoid water freezing on the glass AND keeping within the WAHD regs I would use my Unger pole and the backflip.  The water won't freeze so long as you put enough screenwash in it.  For windows where I can't stand directly underneath and need to work at an angle, I would use my swivloc squeegees.  They swivel at the neck.  I have one that has a normal angle (about 60 degrees) and another that has a zero degree angle.  Admittedly the quality of the job would probably not be as good as ladder work or WFP but at least, with some perseverance, you could keep some turnover coming in.  There may be the odd window that you normally do that cannot be cleaned like this but, as a stopgap, I think most customers would settle for an uncleaned window and a temporary price reduction.  Even before WFP was around, I was using my 5 piece Unger pole for certain difficult windows.  OK so you probably couldn't manage leaded or Georgian jobs but at least most of the work could be done.  Also, bear in mind that we are only talking about upper windows.  Ground floor could still be done the traditional way with a high concentration of screenwash in the water.
My experience is that most customers are delighted to be getting some sort of service on a day when they wouldn't even send their cat out.

gaza

  • Posts: 1642
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2005, 01:55:37 am »
YOUVE ALL MISSED THE POINT:YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO GO HOME TO YOUR WIFE AND KIDS AT NIGHT,EVEN IF YOU DONT WANT TO. ACCIDENTS ARE CAUSED.
LOOK HOW MANY MISTAKES HAPPEN IN THE BEDROOM ;D
KNOCKING KNEES,BAD JOINTS,STRAINS ARE CAUSED BY LONG TERM LADDER USE.

  GAZA
IM AT THAT AGE MY BACK GOES OUT MORE THAN I DO

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2005, 06:50:50 am »
Gaza actually has a point there.

A couple of years ago I had both my knees 'keyholed', at the time I put my knee problems down to a lifetime of playing sport, and for the last 10 years or so of being a bowler in cricket.
So, both knees got cleaned up, cricket was better but I still couldn't really run freely, still had to be pretty careful.
The last 2 seasons I have been able to run in hard and also sprint flat out (that might not be very fast, but it was still flat out!!).
Up until a couple of months ago I still just assumed that my knee problems were sport related, and then I spent the day up a ladder cleaning windows....
I was helping another window cleaner out, he had just been into hospital for a hernia op, therefore he didn't want to do much in the way of ladder work, not that he has much in the way of ladder work anymore.
For the most part it just wasn't feasable to use my pole system so I spent about 4 or 5 hours up and down a ladder.
For the next 4 days or so my knees were killing me!!!
I worked out that it is not so much the climbing up and down that is the problem, that in itself is probably very good for you (unless you climb them 2 rungs at a time that is)
It was the fact that when you are up the top of the ladder and actually working, your knees are resting against the rungs.
Now this isn't anything like as bad as say...being a carpet fitter and kneeling down all day long, but it is cumalative, and as the years pass this mounts up..
Well it did for me at any rate :'(
Just the one full day on a ladder and I was starting to get the knee problems again...


Mind how you go out there....it's a minefield ;D


Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2005, 08:12:05 am »
I agree with you about the physical aspect Ian.
I do worry about my joints a lot.

If ever there was a reason for me changing, then that would be it.
But Tosh carries around 25litres on his back, that can't be any better.

These poles aren't light, so surely it's knackered arms and shoulders instead?

That'll do me for this subject now, as I think everyone's starting to repeat themselves now anyway.

As a last point..
I counted 8 windows I could only do with wfp yesterday,
and 14 that I wfp couldn't do.

Pleasing the customer? ::)

telboy

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2005, 11:33:28 am »
SQUEAKY

A TOTAL LADDER BAN WOULDN'T HELP ANYONE

I STILL USE LADDERS OCCASIONALLY EVERY MONTH

SO I DONT WANT TO SEE THEM BANNED

TEBOY ;)


ANGEL C/S

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2005, 05:12:43 pm »
I agree with you about the physical aspect Ian.
I do worry about my joints a lot.

If ever there was a reason for me changing, then that would be it.
But Tosh carries around 25litres on his back, that can't be any better.

These poles aren't light, so surely it's knackered arms and shoulders instead?


Roger,

You're a canny lad.

But very wrong.

Meet up with me.

E-mail me your mobile number (I've only got your home phone number) and spend half an hour with me/us.

I'll give you a pole and let you have a go and show you the standard of work it can produce.

It's the beez-neez mate!

Sir Squeaky

  • Posts: 8341
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2005, 06:20:30 pm »
I'll give you a pole and let you have a go and show you the standard of work it can produce.

It's the beez-neez mate!
Lovely I'm sure, but it dries spotty. :o

House owners tell me, and shop owners tell me.

Might look good when you leave it.....

Also, what if there's a crusty bird doodah right at the bottom of the pane?
You couldn't see it from the ground, so you won't scrub it off.

There's no answer to that one, that's been another customer complaint - bird poop.

Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2005, 07:25:45 pm »
I'll give you a pole and let you have a go and show you the standard of work it can produce.

It's the beez-neez mate!
Lovely I'm sure, but it dries spotty. :o

House owners tell me, and shop owners tell me.

Might look good when you leave it.....

Also, what if there's a crusty bird doodah right at the bottom of the pane?
You couldn't see it from the ground, so you won't scrub it off.

There's no answer to that one, that's been another customer complaint - bird poop.


Sigh!  Yes, you could be right, Roger.

But I'm putting £30 to £70 quid a day on my takings and working less hours.  More will follow; I know.  I'm not as knackered at the end of the day as I used to be and I know the standard of my cleaning has improved overall.

All the frames, even the frosted-window frames are gleaming.  Windows are left - gleaming - no squeegie marks, no marks left from your ladders and they stay cleaner for longer.

So the odd bit of bird poo that you can't see on a tiny minority of windows is a good trade off.

Take a walk around Garden City (where Roger lives).  Hughes Crescent would be a good example as there's only Simon and myself (as far as I know) who cleans there.  The houses I do have clean frames and clean windows.  The houses Simon does only has clean windows.  Hardwick Avenue; look at the house with the yellow landrover parked outside.  Gleaming.  Look at the one next door.  Clean windows.  Stinking frames.

Also, as a ladder user, I too took work from one WFP user.  I was surprised at how clean the windows and frames were when I did them.  This actually did worry me, because I knew I wanted to go WFP.  Even Wor Lass whose a 'fanny' said the windows looked really good.

The reason why we got them was the WFP user didn't educate his customers and made the job look too easy.

We now WFP these customers without complaint from them.

Stop worrying what your customers might think.

Even if you do lose a few, which I haven't yet (but maybe one who I may drop first); the financial rewards are far greater than the possibility of lost business.

Michael Ross

  • Posts: 9
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2005, 10:29:06 pm »
In Australia we do not have these WFP systems. And even if we did we couldn't use them due to water restrictions. So squeegee it is.

But something that no-one has mentioned yet is the price, in the future.

Sure, today, at this moment in time, you might think you are making more per hour. But if it makes it easier to get these jobs with a WFP, then the number of people getting into it will increase. The increased supply of Window Cleaners will create competition and the price will drop accordingly. And the result will be the same "lower" hourly rate you get now with Traditional Method. So no better off, in the long run. Worse off actually.

Because now you'll be on the "low" rate but have the added expenses of maintaining the WFP system.

So if you're going the WFP route, consider this future. Make sure you have a backup plan for if it happens.

Personally, even if the WFP as described was available in Australia I wouldn't bother with it. Our architecture is completely different, clients get in & out done so many high windows are done by just leaning out the open window after taking the slider out, and it appears to be wasteful with potable water.

Michael Ross

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #62 on: November 12, 2005, 11:55:25 pm »
Michael has highlighted one of my few worries about WFP :-\

As time passes there will be so many more using it, before long it wil become the norm.
Prices could well be forced down on certain types of work, but as running costs and purchase costs are far higher than than trad this would be really bad news.
Except that after a time, those stupid enough to price low will go out of business.

But they could possibly cause a knock on problem, getting prices back up to where they shoud be may not be an easy task.

Having said that, on your average house it won't make a blind bit of difference, on houses you are charging between £8 and £20 for with trad, you'll still be charging roughly the same.
Where WFP makes an absolutely massive difference is on the larger accounts and windows of the georgian or leaded variety.
You can clean these faster with WFP than you can just go over them with a dry scrim, it's on these that prices could tumble, and that would be a bitch, these are the ones that really make you money.

Only time will tell, but a few months ago, I read on the other forum that just such a price was happening in parts of Bristol.
It happens with trad cleaners too, some company sets up and sends out guys with next to no proper training into areas that have been very heavily canvassed, with offers of 1 clean in ten free, or the first clean free (providing you sign a contract (yeah I know, in reality such a contract won't hold water in court))

But I never lost out to these scams in the past, so hopefully things will turn out ok....Doesn't stop me worrying about it in odd quiet moments though!!

Regards,

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

Ian_Giles

  • Posts: 2986
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #63 on: November 13, 2005, 12:13:01 am »
Lovely I'm sure, but it dries spotty. :
Quote

No Rog, it doesn't, not often anyway.
Besides, if I walked around and checked over the last half dozen houses you have cleaned I'll bet that I will be able to find errors on most of them.
There are accounts I do trad, when I walk past them I can invariably find a mistake if I look hard enough, and you well know I am a good and fussy cleaner.
Ladders mark walls and sills (sometimes you have no option but to rest the ladder on the sill).
If you finish a house and your customer asks you to clean the inside for her this month, it'll be a rare clean that won't find you nipping back out to pick up a run or a smear or a 'kick' from the squeegee, and that would only be the obvious ones too!
I will agree that it is easy to a poor job with WFP, but the more skilled you become, the less often this happens.
And you claim to have found more windows that 'couldn't' be done with WFP than ones that 'couldn't' be done with trad??

Not sure what critera you were applying to that one for sure ???
On some occasions there will be windows you have to do trad, i.e. some doors, some old leaded windows that leak, badly oxidized windows or windows where the water is a problem.

I've yet to find many properties that I can't clean, or where the WFP is more hinderence than help.

There is no way that I could afford the van I've got now if I had stayed with trad.

Well,

It's beddy-byes time for me :(

Ian
Ian. ISM CLEANING SERVICES

poleman

  • Posts: 2854
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2005, 12:53:04 am »
Have to say this has been a good read, having been a ladder user for over 16 years I had just the same perception of WFP as Roger thinking that WFP would not work, I only changed over for my own saftey and like everyone else here knows is not WFP that does a bad job it’s the user.

Andy

dai

  • Posts: 3503
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2005, 08:26:08 pm »
If you finish a house and your customer asks you to clean the inside for her this month, it'll be a rare clean that won't find you nipping back out to pick up a run or a smear or a 'kick' from the squeegee, and that would only be the obvious ones too!
Ian your a refreshingly  honest guy. Even if they only ask you to do the insides of the patio door, you will invariably find some little mark.
I believe that WFP does do a better job of cleaning the glass, But when I had to do some work off a ladder last week . Well, the frames are definately not done as well. Above the vents and above the openers were minging. If they leave the opener on the catch, leaving a half inch gap at the top, well you just can't go there with WFP can you. dai

zeusjazmin

  • Posts: 244
Re: Traditional Method ??
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2005, 09:12:47 pm »
trad for me ,wfp would not be suited to the houses i do