[derek west]

Hi doug
just done a quote and had to use my knowledge of carpet cleaning chemistry, (veryltd) but i'd came out the other side with a customer for life.
anyway,  it made me wonder if you were up for maybe giving a course on carpet cleaning chemistry.

theres so many sulphates, acids, peroxides/ chlorides etc... the mind boggles.

maybe you could design a course that could simplify the things we need to know to use such chemicals in a safe manner, understanding all the different ones and knowing when/how strong/ when not/and what to use them on.

maybe if we could get enough of us, lets say 20, @£75 a pop, it would be worth your trouble and time.

anyway its just a thought ive had. what dya reckon?
and while i'm here, is there anyone else here who would like to understand and know more about the chems we use.

remember, (allthough some will disagree) knowledge breeds confidence, and confidence projects to your customer, which in turn gives you brownie points,

"AND WHAT DO POINTS MAKE" alltogether now.......

[fitz2kleen]

great idea derek, id be up for that 

[from edge2edge]

sign me up big boy    Regards Alan Turner(swindon)

[Steve Chapman]

yep definitley up for it, as long as its not in Scotland 


steve

[creighton foyle]

me too

[absolutecleaning]

I'm in (although theres bound to be a few who question whether Doug is qualified to teach just as there was when CLEAN was being mentioned :

[Ricky M]

Derek and Doug: You could host here with us being middle of the country an all and if done around March time we will have a class room and practical environment ready to go to seat 15
Projector, work station, plasma, training room and around 20 different types of flooring to work on from trav to vyny and com carpet tiles to wilton.

so when did you say this course was coming off Derek ?       

[Max Campbell]

Sounds really useful, as long as it's within a reasonable drive (from Cambridge) I'd do it, & prob my son, too.

[gwrightson]

Personaly, Derick  I have to say a stain removal course will teach you all of the techniqes etc to handle most situations providing you have the chems to handle them, I cannot see the point in going down the road of having onboard your van numerous amounts of different peroxides, sulphates,acids etc etc ,what is the point when just a comphrensive  of differnt ones will do the job 99 out of 100  .
Judging by the replys, obviously i am the only one who thinks this but to me ,A waste of time .
geoff

[Steve Chapman]

Geoff

The point is if you know what youre doing you can use household chemicals which cost you 99p from the chemist rather than £20 from your cleaning supplier.

I Know which one id rather do 


steve

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Derek and all.

It would undoubtedly be a good idea to run a course on chemistry(and physics) related to carpet cleaning and I believe it would be interesting and useful.

However to make it really useful a great deal of preparation would be required with really good course notes so that attendees get a lasting benefit.
I like the idea of pre meeting notes as given on the flood school so that basics can be covered beforehand.

I believe 20 may be too many as it needs to be a bit hands on otherwise it would be too heavy.

It might also be better to make it regional so that less travelling is required.

The problem for me would be finding the time to do this really well as that is the only basis on which I would do it.

Cheers

Doug

[derek west]

so a maybe then doug?

geoff, please read my post again, its not about having 10 types of acid and 6 types of sulphate on your van, its about understanding the difference between them, the knowledge to find a substitute out of someones cupboard if youve run out. the knowledge to talk in complete confidence about the effects each one has etc... i held my own today with this customer who was a chemist, and i was quite proud of my self explaining things like, how we don't get rid of wine stains in wool, we just make them un seeable. a UV lamp would prove it etc...
gave me loads of confidence and set me miles apart from the "its just carpet cleaning brigade" imagine how confident i'd be if i actually knew what i was on about?

its not for everyone geoff, and i aint knocking anyone who doesn't fancy it, i just want to know who does. and if theres enough, maybe, just maybe we can twist dougs arm.

[Peter Sweeney]

I completely agree with Derek. Knowledge in  front of your customers (or on the phone) is such a powerful mktg tool it beggars belief that it could be questioned. As for Dougs credentials you only have to read a few of his posts to see he knows what he's talking about. Anyone who challenges that is quite frankly ................................... fill in the space  . Dougs point re prep is also very true. Takes hours and hours to properly prepare a 20 min presentation let alone a days worth.

[mark shannon]

Would be very intrested, did a course with Derek Bolton many moons ago and all his removers were off the supermarket or local chemists shelf.

Would be good if Derek and Doug got together?

[ryan mca]

  Derek great idea
  Doug if you could find the time I think it would be great and really like the idea of doing
  a few around the country as some of us are in scotland

[Mike Halliday]

 let me save you all some time and money....... 80% stain come out with this. 10% come out with  pog-met-oxy the other 10% ??

[derek west]

let me save you all some time and money....... 80% stain come out with this. 10% come out with  pog-met-oxy the other 10% ??

 .................................................................................anyway, moving on,

 seems like a few are up for it doug, have a chew on it  and get back to us in a few days weeks months time. theres interest out there. nuff said.

[Simon Gerrard]

Surely we already have that very facility which is provided to us by the chemical manufactuers who spend time and money developing all of the products we need. Using raw chemicals in all there myriad forms may sound attractive, but in my view using them brings in a totally unacceptable element of risk.  If we use propritery products, that have been specificallty developed for a wide variety of stains by people who know what they are doing, and use them as prescribed by the manufacturerwe are covered against adverse reactions. Don't forget, most of the time we have no idea what a stain actually is and so to start tampering with chemicals we may know little or nothing about, may make matters worse rather than better and the onus to fix any resulting secondary problems would be upon us.

Simon

[Mike Halliday]

let me save you all some time and money....... 80% stain come out with this. 10% come out with  pog-met-oxy the other 10% ??

 .................................................................................anyway, moving on,

 seems like a few are up for it doug, have a chew on it  and get back to us in a few days weeks months time. theres interest out there. nuff said.

Derek the fact you so quickly discounted what i posted is testament that you actual do need to attend a stain removal course.

I read on the usa forums abouts felts naphtha been used as an all round stain remover, as it is not available in the Uk I thought  would experiment with fairy soap it does exactly what I said and is very topical as it stays where you put it, of course some will scoff about using this and get all high & mighty saying its unprofessional....... but hairdressers  H/P Gel was not made to be used on fabrics or Nitromors on carpets but they are used by the trainers mentioned on this topic so far.

[derek west]

i dispare i really do.

its about knowledge, nothing else.


"KNOWLEDGE"

[happy mondays]

Heres the easy and cheaper option http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/learnchemistry.htm   Although I do agree it is handy to be able to ask a teacher questions and put them on the spot, hence why Schools/Colleges/Universitys do still exist. I know alot of people that are very well educated (we all do) who did well at school, they went on to do A levels and then on to uni. Most are in average jobs earning average money and live in a much smaller house than me, they drive ford mondeos and vectras, they make an excuse and leave the pub just before it is their round  :      

Knowledge is good, but it will not (always) pay the bills. Making money in business is about converting enquiries into sales, if the customer likes you and your product they will buy it, you could bore them to death by how much you know about the chemistry of cleaning, or how expensive and great your equipment is, it wont always get you the cash in the bank and means nothing.  I am in business to make as much money as possible for the least amount of time and money spent on marketing, equipment, training and other outgoings.  If they like you (or your salesperson) they will buy your product/service.            

[derek west]

4 pm sunday, is it still okay paul?, bit of free knowledge for my son and all the latte's i can drink, you do have a coffee maker in that posh house of yours surely?

[happy mondays]

4 pm sunday, is it still okay paul?, bit of free knowledge for my son and all the latte's i can drink, you do have a coffee maker in that posh house of yours surely?

 

the coffee maker is called Paul and the coffee is tesco's own brand, I usually drink carling after 3.30pm so I will have to pass on the coffee. I will look up a recipe for latte, but I think it just means coffee and milk in Italian, so I can make that 

Yea should be ok for 4, txt me at least an hour before you arrive so I can get my sales director to tidy up the house and move the rolls and transit off the drive   

[Shaun_Ashmore]

I went on a course at Cleansmart with Derek Bolton as the tutor, a neutral ph soap was used considerably to aid in suspending spotting agents so they worked for longer and in the right areas.

Shaun

[mark shannon]

Yes Derek suggested Fairy soap years back on a course I attended at A&M

[Mike Halliday]

i dispare i really do.

its about knowledge, nothing else.


"KNOWLEDGE"

Mark & Shuan please remember this is about knowledge nothing else and stop posting about soap or derek will get cross

[happy mondays]

I used to pass on all oven cleans to a guy who bought a post code off a large oven cleaning franchise (mentioning no names after a large court case a couple of years ago) he did a fantastic job every time, I once asked him what he used to do such a good job on the ovens, it was 30p a litre washing up liquid from aldi, but when he was with the franchise the product he had to use was about £40 for 5 litres.

[derek west]

i dispare i really do.

its about knowledge, nothing else.


"KNOWLEDGE"

Mark & Shuan please remember this is about knowledge nothing else and stop posting about soap or derek will get cross

i can guess who SHUAN is but who's mark? you on the pop mike?

[Mike Halliday]

you might call him Shaun..... but his real mates know him by his nomdeplume 'SHUAN'

no pop in me i'm the taxi for my lad and his mates who are out on the raz, he says he'll ring me about 3

[derek west]

  rather you than me mate.

[fitz2kleen]

i dispare i really do.

its about knowledge, nothing else.


"KNOWLEDGE"

KNOWLEDGE  is POWER!!
completely agree with derek on this one.
might never use that knowledge but if you've got it its POWERFUL when u need it.

[Simon Gerrard]

Carpet cleaning is not rocket science, it never has been and never will be. Our job when it comes to stain removal is to search out the very best products that have been specifically designed to deal with a wide range of stains and then apply them correctly and in the right order, and, course, learning how to manage a customers expecations about removing stains that may have been on the carpet for years. It's worth remembering that the minute you tamper with a stain you have in effect taken ownership of it - if it comes out, all fine and dandy, but if it gets worse because you've used the wrong chemical then what? Carpet cleaning is all about mitagting and managing risks - not increasing them by playing Russian Roulette with chemicals that are not designed for the job.
Simon

[Peter Sweeney]

I agree with Simon

Carpet cleaning is not rocket science. Rocket science is the study of rockets or more technically know as aerospace engineering.

Carpet cleaners don't use rockets.

Going back to Dereks point and some others made, I truly believe that the knowledge we possess (if communicated well) not only assists with the conversion of jobs but contributes to the longevity of our customers.  Being a "clone" of Dave Liahona has taught me loads and I've used this knowledge to my advantage on so many occasions I simply couldn't list them.

Good point Derek.

Pete

[Shaun_Ashmore]

Kitchen sink marketing as Ken W calls it is the bit to sell yourself somemore after the original sale so they keep coming back and recommending you.

Shaun

[Doug Holloway]

Hi Guys

Without wishing to get into the politics of this I think it is fair to say a greater knowledge of stain removal is something some seek and others don't, nothing wrong with that we are all different.

Derek has shown with his organisation of the flood course that he is a do'er which is why I responded in the first place, maybe something will happen in the future but it is something which would take many days of preparation and not to be entered into lightly.

Cheers

Doug

[Mike Halliday]

all knowledge is good and learning about stain removal is not just about using cheaper propriety chemical instead of purpose made chemical.

Simon is quite correct that prochem, chemspec etc  spend money on R&D to create spotters that remove the stains we come across. But firstly these companies are in the business of making money if they can sell us 4.5lts of water and .5lts of active solution then they will or buy a chemical for £100 for 50 kilos then repackage it and sell it with a 500% mark up.

an example is when Ms first came onto the market and they were mixed at 25-1 but as soon as there was competition knocking on the door it went up to 50-1 at the same price, they could have sold it at that dilution right from the start but  all the did was put less water in and more active ingredient so for  2-3 years they were charging for water.

this is 1 reason stain removal knowledge is always helpful

 

[Ian Gourlay]

I was listening to the boss of Time for You on the internet last night

He is a former carpet cleaner , whose business collapsed when his wife had a heart attack.
He know is the owner of one of Britain's leading Franchise Companies

He said the important thing is to have Knowledge

This can be acquired from books or tricks of the trade by people like Doug , or anyone else.

One of the original ideas of Carpet Cleaners Day out was to enable this to happen.

I think it happens informally  ie Mike passes tips on to Geoff etc

It might even be possible if enough people got together to hire our own trainers and avoid VAT etc

I love this forum but often if somebody steps up there are others trying to knock them down

I do ask what qualifications did the leading trainers have when they started.

What I think they did do however was put together courses which were then reviewed by their piers before publishing or charging, as is normal in the scientific community

[gwrightson]

.........
and shaun,
I was on exactly the same course as you with Derick, few years ago now and yes  plain old soap was indeed a front runner in stain removal, as I recall its what all our mothers used on the collars of shirts before washing, and it worked 
Geoff

[mark shannon]

Very good to suspend cleaning agents as well.

[Doctor Carpet (Ret'd)]

I've been on various courses over the years after which I apparantly did nothing with and to which you could say I had wasted my money.

I did the Prochem hard floor course. It was brilliant and I considered starting doing hard floors but in the end I had too much work to do with carpets and upholstery so I never persued it either fully or as an "add-on".

I also did the IICRC course in carpet fitting. I have no intention of ever wanting to fit a carpet; I might just make use of some of the skills I learnt in terms of re-fitting and the like. However the most important thing I got out of it was the KNOWLEDGE of what is involved and some of the areas where mistakes have been made in fitting and potential problems. Being able to discuss this with clients-even though i never get involved in the remedying of them-is a powerful way of promoting yourself as the expert in the client's eyes, so that they naturally turn to you over any questions they may have about carpets and by default, the next time they want them cleaned.

Rog

[The Carpet Cleaning Pro]

I always tell our customers that the best stain remover is plain old fashioned cold water and quickness. If in doubt give us a call and we will comer out immediatly. Works for our customers and us.

[Steve. Taylor]

One thing i have always questioned with micro-splitters in liquid form the common being sodium triployphosphate

STPP has a weakness, which is that over time, with exposure to water, it will decompose into a
 mono-phosphate,  called trisodiumphosphate, or TSP.

To date no supplier has been able to give me the anwser? with liquid supplied MS
so  maybe someone on here can

Hence the reason i only buy pureclean MS or mix my own powders as an when i am ready to use them
can't see the point in carrying 5 litre's of this and 5 litre's of that when each litre = 1kg in weight

ANY COURSE YOU FEEL COULD BENEFIT YOU THEN DO IT SIMPLE AS THAT  

[ianharper]

Derek

Best and only course on cleaning science

http://www.cityandguilds.com/45917.html

I offer two cleaning services one with only spot and one with spot and stain removal and no one wants to pay the extra money for stain removal. so why waste your time when you can learn what need from manual's  like.

http://www.cleancareseminars.net/specialized_carpet_upholstery_spotting.htm

sure you can be the big hero but ask them to pay you extra and they will live with that stain.

Respect

Ian Harper

[derek west]

chalk and cheese me and you ian

you like to spend money on books and sit there reading them
i like to spend money on tutors and sit there listening to them, (i hate turning pages  )

you like to give 2 cleans and 2 prices .

i just give one clean, (all out) and one price)

just to confirm, not saying either way is the right or wrong way, we just differ.

saying that though, we do have one thing in common.

we're both phollically challenged its a start eh! maybe we can build from there don't suppose you have any books on that?

[Steve. Taylor]

Don't ever say i dont think about ya Derek

http://www.best-hair-loss-product-reviews.com/Hair_Loss_Books.htm

[derek west]

theres one for dummies!

woohooo, i'm having that one. cheers steve,

told all my mates i was having a sweep over, they turned up an hour later with tinnies, die hard 1 2 3 and 4 and a duvet each.

[Steve. Taylor]

Derek i was once told not to worry about the hair on your head but the AIR in ya lungs

Once you get to the crematorium it's all gone

And no link any one can put up will bring it back well Ian might find one

[happy mondays]

4 pm sunday, is it still okay paul?, bit of free knowledge for my son and all the latte's i can drink, you do have a coffee maker in that posh house of yours surely?

I take it you got my text earlier this afternoon as my eldest said no one had called at the house 

[derek west]

yeah got text paul, no worries mate, to be honest, he's a bit more advanced than i thought, and all the answers he needs are in all the books ive bought him. i was only coming round cos i thought you had a latte machine.