[craig jwc]

Has anyone heard that the "Banning working from a ladder" next year has been changed.

Been told by a couple of people whilst out working last week that they are not going to stop window cleaners working off a ladder as they aren't working off it for long periods of time

One person who told me works for some health and safety company which i think has something to do with my local council.

Even though w/c's will be working all day using ladders, he said that you are not up the ladder for that long to clean one window. So he said that this ladder ban has been looked at again and changed.

I use wfp and so i'm not too bothered about it, but wondered if anyone else has heard this.

Or have i been asleep and missed something

Craig

[gaza]

Craig the worst offenders for ladder abuse arounnd here is the council

  gaza

[Jake]

Graig

We have recently attended the 'Health & Safety Test' that is required prior to obtaining our CSCS cards.

Question 5.15 asks 'When can you use a ladder as a place of work?'

Answer 'If you are doing light work for a short time'

It would seem that there has been a rethink regards using ladders in certain situations

Common sense prevails ?

                                          Regards.....Jake

[windows_chepstow]

Answer 'If you are doing light work for a short time'

It would seem that there has been a rethink regards using ladders in certain situations

I questioned Philip Hanson, the editor of Professional Window Cleaner Magazine regarding this.

My point was that the 'short duration of use' okayed the use of ladders for cleaning windows, because you're only up them for a few minutes at a time.

I can't remember his exact reply, but it was something along the lines of, 'HSE would not accept this as a justification, since you're constantly up them'.

Mybe Philip Hanson could help out here?

[mk1]

i thought the new legislation was worded IF there is an alternative to using a ladder then use it  : :

ladders are the last resort 

[Sir Squeaky]

 

Hate to say I told you so......but..... :

Unlucky those who spent thousands on an alternative.

[macc]

Hate to say I told you so......but..... :

Unlucky those who spent thousands on an alternative.

And when your leg is in plaster  .

[Sir Squeaky]

..and when your's is?

More chance you'll crash on the way to work.

Don't be jealous now.

[Clear Vision]

Here you go again squeek!!!

WFP vs ladders

You just can't help It can you :

You must live a very boaring life

[JohnL]

and just to support squeaky - what was it I posted on the other thread?  why are they dragging their feet I wonder?

JohnL

[24-7 S C Services]

Hi Everyone,

The HSE will be releasing a new document soon on the working at height directive. What is contained in this new document, I cannot comment on at present, but it should make the understanding of the directive easier to follow.

Several companies and organisations have passed on their comments and requests for this new document, this includes the APWC and the FWC as well as some other organisations.

It is of my understanding that ladders at present are not banned and they will not be banned. However, you have to justify the use of a ladder (this is the grey area, because one justified use by one person may not seem justified by another). In addition to this and including residential properties, you must carry out a RISK ASSESMENT and METHOD STATEMENT.

Hope the above helps

Andrew

[Ian_Giles]

Graig

We have recently attended the 'Health & Safety Test' that is required prior to obtaining our CSCS cards.

Question 5.15 asks 'When can you use a ladder as a place of work?'

Answer 'If you are doing light work for a short time'

It would seem that there has been a rethink regards using ladders in certain situations

Common sense prevails ?

                                          Regards.....Jake

Actually this is no different at all, that condition has always prevailed, but of course although you may well consider that window cleaning actually constitutes 'light work for short duration' This is in fact incorrect, as Tosh says, yo uare up and down the ladder all day long every working day of the year...ergo, short duration it is not!

However, it isn't being directly enoforced, where domestic work is concerned its carry on as normal

but don't kid yourself that it won't come along, break it down to its most simplistic form and it is easy to enforce, in most circumstances ladders are simply not needed.

some will say, 'Ah, but what about oxidized paintwork!' Well? what about it?
The window can still be cleaned to a good standard, I do several myself and you'd be hard pressed to do a better job trad.

difficult to prove you are working off a ladder when another method could have been and should have used?
Video evidence  is childs play, and it only takes a handful of prosecutions for the fear of being prosecuted to spread like wildfire.

Accidents and the refusal to pay out, claiming non adherance to the regulations by insurance companies will also speed things up.

But as I have said, it's carry on as normal at the moment, it may be as little as 5 years away, or it may be ten years away, but as time passes the regulations will continue to be tightened up in little steps, and there is always another little step that can and will be taken.

That is only my own personal opinion of course, and personally it really doesn't bother me, working of ladders for over 30 years almost totally ruined my knees, I'm just pleased I no longer have to use them.

but for those that are happy to continue using them then great! More power to your elbow

Ian

[windows_chepstow]

If you read the rules, working at height is a 'last resort'.

What has happened that overides the rules?

Where's Phillip Hanson?  He normally championed the anti-ladder corner?

[JohnL]

well its all becoming much clearer now!

                

( I expect that will be deleted by a mod as well! )

JohnL

[poleman]

For the window cleaners that have not seen this

9 September 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/bb_wm_fs.stm?nbram=1&news=1&nbwm=1&bbwm=1&bbram=1&nol_storyid=4231920

16 September 2005

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/ukfs_news/hi/bb_wm_fs.stm?news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nol_storyid=4254988&checkedBandwidth=nb&checkedMedia=asx&subtitles=hide&alreadySeen=1

Andy

[groundhog]

Ladders will not be banned! Trust me!

[jouk45]

ah well lads i will just have to invent escalator   ladders, that will solve all the probs out 

[Jake]

In my earlier reply to this post, I quoted from the Health & Safety Test 2006 Edition.

This is an official publication by the Construction Industry Training Board

If they say that it is ok to use a ladder as a place of work, for a short time, then whats good enough for the construction industry is good enough for me!

I cannot see a window cleaner being prosecuted because he hasn't invested thousands in a WFP system. Surely, if you use  a ladder to clean windows, and you do not own a WFP, then you have no alternative!

Look, if you were asked by a company to remove a label from an upstairs window, and the scaffold was down and no way of doing it from inside, what are they going to do? Hire a cherry picker for a 1 minute job or allow you to use a ladder for a short time, the latter i would think!

I think that there is a lot of 'doom and gloom' spouted about this subject, and I suspect, that when the dust has settled, common sense will have prevailed

Window cleaners will not be banned from using ladders!


                                          Regards.....Jake

[windows_chepstow]

The links that Poleman posted contains this text (Extract from BBC Newsnight)

The window cleaner on a bike with a bucket, sponge and a ladder might soon be a thing of the past.

The European Working Heights Directive has made the use of ladders for window cleaners a last resort. Justin Rowlatt reports.

A Newsnight report on how a new EU directive would stop window cleaners using ladders has provoked a furious debate.

Justin Rowlatt returns to the story that created so much controversy.

I saw both programmes and I've read the regulations.

According to the regs, working at height is a last resort; in the guidance notes, the principle of the directive is that if a job can be reasonably and practically performed from the ground, then that's how the job should be done.

I've not seen any amendment to the regulations stating otherwise, however I have read that the HSE do not expect every window cleaner in the country to purchase a WFP straight away.

I guess we have to wait for the HSE's new document, that 24-7 refers too!

[Ian_Giles]

In my earlier reply to this post, I quoted from the Health & Safety Test 2006 Edition.

This is an official publication by the Construction Industry Training Board

If they say that it is ok to use a ladder as a place of work, for a short time, then whats good enough for the construction industry is good enough for me!

I cannot see a window cleaner being prosecuted because he hasn't invested thousands in a WFP system. Surely, if you use  a ladder to clean windows, and you do not own a WFP, then you have no alternative!

Look, if you were asked by a company to remove a label from an upstairs window, and the scaffold was down and no way of doing it from inside, what are they going to do? Hire a cherry picker for a 1 minute job or allow you to use a ladder for a short time, the latter i would think!

I think that there is a lot of 'doom and gloom' spouted about this subject, and I suspect, that when the dust has settled, common sense will have prevailed

Window cleaners will not be banned from using ladders!


                                          Regards.....Jake

Nice post Jake

Thats how you do a reply that allows for healthy debate, (as against argument!)

However! What we do does not constitute short duration, were you the builder that wanted that sticker removed, the window cleaner you had asked to do so would be entirely justified in using his ladder to climb up and remove it.
this isn't something you can do with WFP, and it is only short duration, ergo, you are allowed!

Merely not having a piece of equipment is not viewed as justification for using something else, so not having WFP will not mean that there is no other way of doing the job.

However, my own argument is academic as no one is going to stop you at present climbing your ladders to clean windows on domestic accounts!!

I know we are all supposed to do risk assessments and method statements, but apart from showing you are at least aware of what you are doing, they are not worth the paper they are written on, the odds are yo uwill carry on much as you have always carried on..except now you will have a bit of paper with words on that makes it ok :

Quite apart from which, on domestic accounts both of them will be generic, and you will have one apiece that will cover you on all of your accounts....can yo ureally imagine sitting down and writing out 400 separate method statements and risk assessments for each and every job you have?

Ian