[andyjm1]

I've been asked to quote for a large complex of flats which have patio doors leading onto balconies which have railings.
The customer want the patio doors included in the quote. The only way I can see they can be cleaned is by climbing over the railings from a ladder.
Does anyone know if is this allowed under working at height regulations?

[GWCS]

from a recent article on the Fed of WC magazine. No it isn't.

[Tosh]

If it was just 1st floor flats, I'd probably go for it if the price was right!  I bet I've done a lot dafter.  It would be against any health and safety legislation, but I'm like that.

Any higher than 1st floor I wouldn't!

But to be honest I'd prefer to keep the job ladder free, since its a nicer way of working; so I'd use the 'elf and safety card.

[dazmond]

i do on 1 flat but im extra careful!i dont stand on the top of my van with a pole though! ;)dont think its legal though according to the H/S brigade!im a lot more careful working than i was a few years ago!i use my trad pole a lot more now,ladderstopper,mitts etc.up to u whether u want to risk it pal!

[Murdie window cleaning]

I would be asking how I'm meant access the patio doors, if they expect you yo climb onto the balcony I would only do so if I felt comfartable doing so.

How would you do it if it was a customer you were quoting as a domestic job ? If the answer is you wouldn't do it, then there it is

[andyjm1]

The flats go up to three storeys high.    

I think the only safe way they can be cleaned is using traditional methods, accessing them through the flats themselves which would obviously be be problematic, although not impossible.

What if I offered to wfp all the other windows on a Friday and then be there over the following Saturday and Sunday to do the balconies when people are more likely to be at home?
There are 96 balconies, I would obviously miss some if people were away for the weekend but could probably do most of them.
Anyone think they might go for that?

[EZclean]

for H&S reasons they should be cleaned by the residents. too much hassle to do them from insides. how many flats are there?

[andyjm1]

for H&S reasons they should be cleaned by the residents. too much hassle to do them from insides. how many flats are there?

I'm not sure how many flats there are I only counted the windows.
I know it would be hassle accessing them though the inside but if I was prepared to do this and it means I get the job at a nice price it might be worth the hassle.

[Murdie window cleaning]

Have you had a look at the Ionics sidewinder, they sell it as being able to clean akward windows such as reaching through balcony rails.

It may be worth a look

[andyjm1]

Have you had a look at the Ionics sidewinder, they sell it as being able to clean akward windows such as reaching through balcony rails.

It may be worth a look

Even if you could get a brush through the railings the balconies are so deep you wouldn't be able to clean the bottom of the door from the ground. Thanks for the suggestion though.

[Murdie window cleaning]

Then I think you will have to add a note to your quote saying you will need access to the property to clean the patio door. Most of the residents will give up and tell you they will just clean there own doors after a while.   

[Blue Frog Systems]

I think you need to go back to the person asking for the quote and explain the safety side of climbing over railings at over 25ft high. Personally i wouldnt do it on a standard house, ive got some and lost some quotes, but its my life on the line.

Going back the next day (saturday) would be a good compramise if your happy to go back. Though you probably wont get them all in, you should get most.

What i would do is get a contact number for each of the residents and offer them either the friday you clean them or the saturday morning. Tell the management company you will only charge for balcony windows that are cleaned.

Thats my 2p's worth

[trevor perry]

what are the ground conditions like, it may be possible to hire a cherrypicker and clean them from in that using a short wfp to reach the width of the balcony, i know this is going to add a fair bit to your qoute but point out to them this is the only safe way acceptable to health and safety other than going through peoples flats.

[dai]

I do loads of them and think nowt of it. You need something on the balcony to stand on though.
It can be well scary trying to get off if you have nothing to stand on.

[leapstallbuildings]

The only job I have like this is on a large house with the "balcony" actually being a flat roofaccessed via the bedroom external doors.  I do climb over the railiung but it is very safe in this instance.  I slot the ladder stiles between the uprights and dig the ladder into the grass so it isn't going anywhere.  The situation that you have is toytally different though.  I'm not so sure I would quote for such a job unless they excluded the balconies.

[Alistair@AWC]

I have a 'special conditions' section on all quotes.

Just add into the quote that you will 'clean the balcony doors where reasonable access is allowed'

WFP the building then go into the building with trad gear and quickly knock on every door and ask anybody who answers if they would like there patio doors cleaning I bet you'd be surprised how many people will turn you down.

[windowswashed]

I do loads of them and think nowt of it. You need something on the balcony to stand on though.
It can be well scary trying to get off if you have nothing to stand on.

Tie the top of the ladder off before you get off, so it won't slip or slide away 

[andyjm1]

Thanks for all the feedback and opinions.

I have given them my price and told them I would be going through the flats to clean the patio doors for safety reasons.

It's the climbing off the ladder and onto the railings bit I don't like the thought of, and even less the  climbing back on part, one slip and it's goodnight.

[lcwalker]

Thanks for all the feedback and opinions.

I have given them my price and told them I would be going through the flats to clean the patio doors for safety reasons.

It's the climbing off the ladder and onto the railings bit I don't like the thought of, and even less the  climbing back on part, one slip and it's goodnight.

Best way it isn't worth the risk ive done some things like that doing gardening work up ladders with a chainsaw and balancing on step ladders with a hedge cutter i just borrow my brothers scaffolding to do the jobs now.Safty first is my motto.

[poleman]

We do a lot of flats and we never get a ladder out to clean the balconies! we tell them from the start that if they wont them done we are happy to clean them by going throw the flat! if there not in then we just try to catch them next time! easy as that!!!!!

Andy

[Blue Frog Systems]

Good choice Andyjm1, let us know how your quote goes

[Nathanael Jones]

If you worked in a 2 man team, had a harness & lanyard and secured yourself onto the balcony railing before you step out of the mewp, it'd be safe enough. Hard work and time consuming though, so charge a premium!

[Bryan_Dolby]

Hi Nathanel

Sorry mate wrong answer
You would have to check the railings have efficent load bearing capability
You could get the owner of the building to put in eye bolts
With harness this could be done do not think they will do this costs
Under health and safety law this cannot be done
The risk assesment should have on it high risk possible death

please do not do this practice

Bryan Dolby

[Moderator David@stives]

Nat

Also you should never step out of a cherry picker.

not very good advice for someone who represents a window cleaning guild.

Dave

[Moderator David@stives]

dont forget eye bolts need inspecting on an annual basis

[Niall McAllister]

Nat

Also you should never step out of a cherry picker.

not very good advice for someone who represents a window cleaning guild.

Dave

this from the man that isn't safe on the first rung of a ladder

[trevor perry]

Hi Nathanel

Sorry mate wrong answer
You would have to check the railings have efficent load bearing capability
You could get the owner of the building to put in eye bolts
With harness this could be done do not think they will do this costs
Under health and safety law this cannot be done
The risk assesment should have on it high risk possible death

please do not do this practice

Bryan Dolby

spot on, as i said in earlier post could be done from cherrypicker with a small wfp then you dont have to climb over and everyone is safe

[Bryan_Dolby]

This is what our industry is trying to avoid unsafe practices
People have put their opinion in and have not got any H/S qualifications

When it comes to health and safety lets try and get it right

The FWC have spent alot of time talking to the HSE and have a good relationship with them
Guidence produced on behalf of our industry

Bryan

[Window Washers]

If you worked in a 2 man team, had a harness & lanyard and secured yourself onto the balcony railing before you step out of the mewp, it'd be safe enough. Hard work and time consuming though, so charge a premium!

That comment is not a good one Nat....

[Steve CM]

not very good advice for someone who represents a window cleaning guild.

i agree!

[Nathanael Jones]

I take it all back! I've never done a job that required it, so hadn't given it much thought to be honest.

My reasoning was that all balcony railings are inherently designed to take the weight of 10 men or more, so testing & eye bolts etc would be unnecessary.  I'll admit I disagreeumption was wrong though.

[trevor perry]

This is what our industry is trying to avoid unsafe practices
People have put their opinion in and have not got any H/S qualifications

When it comes to health and safety lets try and get it right

The FWC have spent alot of time talking to the HSE and have a good relationship with them
Guidence produced on behalf of our industry

Bryan

i do agree that health and safety is very important but having qualifications doesnt mean some of the conclusions these qualified men come to are right as an example try reading loughborough universitys study on the correct use of ladders it is an absolute joke, in one part it recomends that to foot a ladder the person footing should stand on the bottom rung if i had followed that advice over the years i would be typing this from a wheelchair, another example of beurocracy gone mad is on flat roofs we always used to use a deadweight and a lanyard to restrict operatives movement to edge of roof now you cant do this unless the deadweight is safety kite marked and one of these costs about £2 grand for what is basically a weight with wheels on and in all fairness is way to heavy to use on many roofs so creates more of a problem than it solves

[andyjm1]

Good choice Andyjm1, let us know how your quote goes

Will do.

If I don't get the job or I don't hear anything do you think they would mind telling me what price the job went for. Only reason I wouldn't mind finding out is I have done about 8 medium to large commercial quotes since I started in this game and not got one of them. I would like to know how far out I am, do you think the property management company might at least give me an idea of how far out I was? Does anyone else follow up quotes?

[sparklebright]

Thanks for all the feedback and opinions.

I have given them my price and told them I would be going through the flats to clean the patio doors for safety reasons.

It's the climbing off the ladder and onto the railings bit I don't like the thought of, and even less the  climbing back on part, one slip and it's goodnight.

You're a wise man. Nothing is worth taking risks for really.
And if you do a job in an unsafe way it can render your life insurance invalid.

And before any naysayers say 'that's not true', I would advise you to check....because it is. Insurance companies will have room to wriggle out of paying up if are working in a dangerous way

[geefree]

Give another quote , excluding the patio doors,

or tell them access through the flat only.


Are they mad? 

[Moderator David@stives]

i
this from the man that isn't safe on the first rung of a ladder

And youre point is ?

[sparklebright]

Good choice Andyjm1, let us know how your quote goes

Will do.

If I don't get the job or I don't hear anything do you think they would mind telling me what price the job went for. Only reason I wouldn't mind finding out is I have done about 8 medium to large commercial quotes since I started in this game and not got one of them. I would like to know how far out I am, do you think the property management company might at least give me an idea of how far out I was? Does anyone else follow up quotes?

Always worth asking, they will probably tell you.
Just a postscript to this I recently lost a job.
18 flats, 66 windows 3 floors, 18 balconies (6 per floor). Some fool quoted £65 per 6 weekly clean.
Is it sour grapes to call him a fool? Probably, but the price comes to £3.61 a flat.
What a fool...

[dai]

When I do these jobs I make sure that the ladder is about  4 ft higher than the balcony rail, and resting on the wall, it's all about the way you transfer your weight from the ladder to whatever your going to stand on. In my case it's usually a convenient chair. If no chair is available I take a small set of steps up with me first.
When you step over, you place your leg on the inside of the rail, this holds the ladder in place.
If your careful, and I am, there is no more danger than stepping onto a flat roof, in fact less as that first step off a flat roof onto the ladder is something you have to be very careful with.
I wouldn't like to wash the underpants of some on here, if the were doing the job 50 years ago.

[sparklebright]

Yes but is taking risks is a good idea?
Even if you feel comfortable?
All those windys (1 a week) who either died or were seriously injured in recent years probably 'felt' perfectly safe.
People used to brush their teeth using radioactive toothpaste years ago cos it made their teeth shiny, was that a good idea because they weren't thinking of the risks.
Working safely doesn't mean you're a wimp it means you aren't stupid.

Life is risky in general it's true, but why takes extra risks you don't have to

[jonnyald]

personally i rest my ladder on the balcony rail itself rather than wall.  its what you and only you feel safest with at times like that.  i just prefer getting a good grip with both hands on the balcony rail before a foot leaves the ladder rung .i would place the ladder to the left side hard against the wall as i find it easier stepping off and on to my right  .    i agree with DAI  above,leaving a flat roof  and stepping onto ladder is  a time when  it pays to go very carefully .  choice of shoe is important too(sole )

[HIGH LEVEL WINDOW CLEANERS (scrimmy)]

i do a complex with balconies and they are all trained (if they are in) to have everything moved out of my way, as i am coming in (boots off) to clean from inside as there aint no way i am taking one foot of the ladder ( i think its an insurance clause?)  never mind jumping over a rail at 20 feet, i imagine getting back on the ladder would be a lot more risky than getting off it.

[Bryan_Dolby]

Scrimmy

Have you tried putting over shoes on

They do save alot of time

jonnyald and anybody doing these balconies by climbing over them

How do you know the balcony rails as sufficent load bearing capability
the ladder will not be secured to the building
Everthing against H/Safety law
Inefficent risk assesment
If a accident happens you and the owner could be sued under crimminal, civil law and the corperate manslaughter act if a fatality happens (prison,fines)

Please change working practice

Bryan

Bryan

[HIGH LEVEL WINDOW CLEANERS (scrimmy)]

no need to put over shoes on as i can do all 18 flats with them off coz there is a big long carpeted corridor and carpeted stairs at the both ends...simples....the balconies are protected from the rain so my feet never get wet anyway.

[jonnyald]

i would never wear overshoes and climb a ladder with these .   
i can honestly say iv never seen a flimsy balcony rail either  im sure when balcony rails are designed they at least are strong enough to be leaned against .  perhaps there are dangerous balcony types,ive not seen any myself though

 

[Richard Holt]

Depends how big the box of milk tray is :

[John Walker]

I have some flats with balconies.  I have a trigger operated short pole.  I turn it sideways and hook it through the next balcony up.  I use boot slip overs to protect carpets and access each flat.  Once I've competed the 3 levels, I carefully lower the pole down on a thin nylon rope.  Bit of a pain but it works for me.  Still a major problem if folks aren't in though.

[matt]

its not so bad if you secure them to the railings when you climb over

the only thing thats not acceptable it trying on the skimpy underwear thats been left out to dry, by all accounts they dont like that

[HIGH LEVEL WINDOW CLEANERS (scrimmy)]

I have some flats with balconies.  I have a trigger operated short pole.  I turn it sideways and hook it through the next balcony up.  I use boot slip overs to protect carpets and access each flat.  Once I've competed the 3 levels, I carefully lower the pole down on a thin nylon rope.  Bit of a pain but it works for me.  Still a major problem if folks aren't in though.

sorry, but i need a video to get wot u r are on about.

video

[steve a]

its not so bad if you secure them to the railings when you climb over

the only thing thats not acceptable it trying on the skimpy underwear thats been left out to dry, by all accounts they dont like that

And i am sure a few would like a video of the "trying on the skimpy underwear thing"